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Give terminators access to grav cannons for 25-30pts

Nah, 4++ at 35pts, that's how hh fixed termies.

And Lychguard can have Tesla Destructor!

I know they're supposed to be mobile tanks, but that's what you have centurions for. Let's not go overboard.

I'm looking at just using terminators as counts-as centurions myself. Solves a lot of problems right there.

I downright love that idea. Might need to look into loadouts and do some convertin!

With the way the game is going, the all assault cannon solution seems more and more feasible. Free assault cannons, even. Just change the standard weapon from storm bolter to assault cannon. Done. Scatbikes are still better.

And shuricannonbikes will still eat the Termies for lunch. (10 of them with shuricannons, on average, kills 4 Termies per shooting phase, far more if Guide/Prescienced, assuming no FNP or no cover better than 5+)

In return the Termies (assuming, by some magic, none die) deal a little over 3 wounds to the bikes, assuming they don't Jink.

Given the costs, I think assault cannons on terminators are actually pretty reasonable, or maybe split the difference and give them heavy bolters, with an option to upgrade 1 in 3 to a multi-melta, grav-gun (not grav-cannon), heavy flamer, autocannon or lascannon.

Then again, I am comparing to scatbikes/cannonbikes, which are mean as hezmana in numbers...

jade_angel wrote:
And shuricannonbikes will still eat the Termies for lunch. (10 of them with shuricannons, on average, kills 4 Termies per shooting phase, far more if Guide/Prescienced, assuming no FNP or no cover better than 5+)

In return the Termies (assuming, by some magic, none die) deal a little over 3 wounds to the bikes, assuming they don't Jink.

Given the costs, I think assault cannons on terminators are actually pretty reasonable, or maybe split the difference and give them heavy bolters, with an option to upgrade 1 in 3 to a multi-melta, grav-gun (not grav-cannon), heavy flamer, autocannon or lascannon.

Then again, I am comparing to scatbikes/cannonbikes, which are mean as hezmana in numbers...

No; I'm going all the way for the assault cannon. The heavy bolter is crap.

Martel732 wrote:

<kersnip>
No; I'm going all the way for the assault cannon. The heavy bolter is crap.

Well, it's not great, granted, but it does have better range than the assault cannon. But still, yeah, I think you're probably right. Heavy bolters in general need a buff - about the only place I use them is on Retributor squads, and that only because they can get Rending as an AoF. Which the assault cannon already has. So yeah :/ Maybe if they were 36", Salvo 3/5?

Also, am I alone in thinking storm bolters ought to be assault 3 to start with?

Terminators just need the Necron Destroyer treatment. Give them an extra wound.

 Xerics wrote:
Terminators just need the Necron Destroyer treatment. Give them an extra wound.

I'd actually be quite good with their cost if we could take a grav cannon. I'd -like- BS5 WS5 terminators, it would show they -are- veterans, but if we got two wounds, I'd think the price of a unit would go back up.

Take the strike force ultra, even without grav cannons it boosts terminators a nice bit.

You can take two ten man squads, combat squad and place two heavy weapons in the same squad. 6 krak missiles are bound to kill something...

Not to mention if you take tiggy the highly likely chance of having 4 5 man units of terminators in your face, but more than likely a storm Raven and a land raider crusader not far behind.

And another thing- a tac squad may be able to out shoot the terminators, but terminators have something tacs don't, the ability to get into combat and beat the crap out of alot of units.

Firstly: Why are you comparing 270 points of eldar with 185 points of terminators, while not even bothering to consider what would happen if you started "putting them in close combat" with each other, nor what would happen if the one at the front had a storm sheild.

Secondly: your shooting maths is: 10 eldar canon bikes hit 20 shots per turn they wound 16.7 of which 3.3 rend at AP2. The 3.3 rends give 2.2 dead termies without sheilds but 1.1 dead termies with. The 13.4 normal wounds kill 2.23 So it's 3.3 dead termies or 4.4 if you don't take a storm sheild. Which you are mad not to.

Thirdly: in close combat if you charged before being shot at (perfectly possible if you'd tied up the jet bikes) you'd have 15 attacks at str 8 ap3.. he'd have 10 at str 3 ap-.. he'd go first make 5 hits and and wound 1.6 then you'd save all but 0.25 ...you'd do 7.5 hits 6.25 wounds no save..

Lastly: you are ignoring teleport and it's tactical big brother: board control. Like everyone does with jet bike analogies. If you are have your bum handed to you in a 1500+ plus game that has jet bikes in it you simply are not excecising board control. Terminators are meant to land in the middle. They are meant to force people to flee and allow other units to tie them up. If you are not doing this you are losing

 raiden wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
Terminators just need the Necron Destroyer treatment. Give them an extra wound.

I'd actually be quite good with their cost if we could take a grav cannon. I'd -like- BS5 WS5 terminators, it would show they -are- veterans, but if we got two wounds, I'd think the price of a unit would go back up.

Take the strike force ultra, even without grav cannons it boosts terminators a nice bit.

You can take two ten man squads, combat squad and place two heavy weapons in the same squad. 6 krak missiles are bound to kill something...

Not to mention if you take tiggy the highly likely chance of having 4 5 man units of terminators in your face, but more than likely a storm Raven and a land raider crusader not far behind.

And another thing- a tac squad may be able to out shoot the terminators, but terminators have something tacs don't, the ability to get into combat and beat the crap out of alot of units.

Of course you would be ok with them if GW gave them the most powerful gun in the Space Marine Codex. Instead of making them cheaper centurions give them a real role in the battle.

ConanMan wrote:
Firstly: Why are you comparing 270 points of eldar with 185 points of terminators, while not even bothering to consider what would happen if you started "putting them in close combat" with each other, nor what would happen if the one at the front had a storm sheild.

Secondly: your shooting maths is: 10 eldar canon bikes hit 20 shots per turn they wound 16.7 of which 3.3 rend at AP2. The 3.3 rends give 2.2 dead termies without sheilds but 1.1 dead termies with. The 13.4 normal wounds kill 2.23 So it's 3.3 dead termies or 4.4 if you don't take a storm sheild. Which you are mad not to.

Thirdly: in close combat if you charged before being shot at (perfectly possible if you'd tied up the jet bikes) you'd have 15 attacks at str 8 ap3.. he'd have 10 at str 3 ap-.. he'd go first make 5 hits and and wound 1.6 then you'd save all but 0.25 ...you'd do 7.5 hits 6.25 wounds no save..

Lastly: you are ignoring teleport and it's tactical big brother: board control. Like everyone does with jet bike analogies. If you are have your bum handed to you in a 1500+ plus game that has jet bikes in it you simply are not excecising board control. Terminators are meant to land in the middle. They are meant to force people to flee and allow other units to tie them up. If you are not doing this you are losing

Fair point that it was a bad comparison pointswise. Didn't think of that, which was dumb. I was thinking of shooting terminators (hence the discussion of storm bolters, assault cannons, etc) - obviously you'll do better with storm shields or heavy cover. You'll absolutely kill the hell out of them in melee, sure, even with shooting termies (power fists hurt!), but unless you can lock the bikes down somehow, the terminators won't get the charge unless the Eldar player wants or needs to risk it. They can zip to just barely inside shuricannon range, then assault move right back out.

On the shooting, I was comparing a notional all-assault-cannon unit, though even there, comparing 5 models to 10 is not exactly apples-to-apples. What I was trying to suss out - but I was not clear about, my fault for posting when tired - was whether a 5-man termie squad with all assault cannons would have way too much killing power relative to cannonbikes. I concluded that mostly they would not, and so that might not be an entirely unreasonable upgrade.

Good point about board control though. Bikes are actually decent at that, with their mobility, but yeah, that's exactly what assault terminators are good for.

ConanMan wrote:
Firstly: Why are you comparing 270 points of eldar with 185 points of terminators, while not even bothering to consider what would happen if you started "putting them in close combat" with each other, nor what would happen if the one at the front had a storm sheild.

Secondly: your shooting maths is: 10 eldar canon bikes hit 20 shots per turn they wound 16.7 of which 3.3 rend at AP2. The 3.3 rends give 2.2 dead termies without sheilds but 1.1 dead termies with. The 13.4 normal wounds kill 2.23 So it's 3.3 dead termies or 4.4 if you don't take a storm sheild. Which you are mad not to.

Thirdly: in close combat if you charged before being shot at (perfectly possible if you'd tied up the jet bikes) you'd have 15 attacks at str 8 ap3.. he'd have 10 at str 3 ap-.. he'd go first make 5 hits and and wound 1.6 then you'd save all but 0.25 ...you'd do 7.5 hits 6.25 wounds no save..

Lastly: you are ignoring teleport and it's tactical big brother: board control. Like everyone does with jet bike analogies. If you are have your bum handed to you in a 1500+ plus game that has jet bikes in it you simply are not excecising board control. Terminators are meant to land in the middle. They are meant to force people to flee and allow other units to tie them up. If you are not doing this you are losing

Because they never will be in close combat. Teleport is a bad joke to me. No one flees from terminators. They just shoot them with AP 2 or 100 shots and they die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xerics wrote:

 raiden wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
Terminators just need the Necron Destroyer treatment. Give them an extra wound.

I'd actually be quite good with their cost if we could take a grav cannon. I'd -like- BS5 WS5 terminators, it would show they -are- veterans, but if we got two wounds, I'd think the price of a unit would go back up.

Take the strike force ultra, even without grav cannons it boosts terminators a nice bit.

You can take two ten man squads, combat squad and place two heavy weapons in the same squad. 6 krak missiles are bound to kill something...

Not to mention if you take tiggy the highly likely chance of having 4 5 man units of terminators in your face, but more than likely a storm Raven and a land raider crusader not far behind.

And another thing- a tac squad may be able to out shoot the terminators, but terminators have something tacs don't, the ability to get into combat and beat the crap out of alot of units.

Of course you would be ok with them if GW gave them the most powerful gun in the Space Marine Codex. Instead of making them cheaper centurions give them a real role in the battle.

Z

Actually I think the assault cannon is rather poor in the spectrum of heavy weapons. It doesn't help that all the Imperial platforms for said assault cannon stink. This would also be a poor platform, but at least they could do some damage before they die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
Firstly: Why are you comparing 270 points of eldar with 185 points of terminators, while not even bothering to consider what would happen if you started "putting them in close combat" with each other, nor what would happen if the one at the front had a storm sheild.

Secondly: your shooting maths is: 10 eldar canon bikes hit 20 shots per turn they wound 16.7 of which 3.3 rend at AP2. The 3.3 rends give 2.2 dead termies without sheilds but 1.1 dead termies with. The 13.4 normal wounds kill 2.23 So it's 3.3 dead termies or 4.4 if you don't take a storm sheild. Which you are mad not to.

Thirdly: in close combat if you charged before being shot at (perfectly possible if you'd tied up the jet bikes) you'd have 15 attacks at str 8 ap3.. he'd have 10 at str 3 ap-.. he'd go first make 5 hits and and wound 1.6 then you'd save all but 0.25 ...you'd do 7.5 hits 6.25 wounds no save..

Lastly: you are ignoring teleport and it's tactical big brother: board control. Like everyone does with jet bike analogies. If you are have your bum handed to you in a 1500+ plus game that has jet bikes in it you simply are not excecising board control. Terminators are meant to land in the middle. They are meant to force people to flee and allow other units to tie them up. If you are not doing this you are losing

Fair point that it was a bad comparison pointswise. Didn't think of that, which was dumb. I was thinking of shooting terminators (hence the discussion of storm bolters, assault cannons, etc) - obviously you'll do better with storm shields or heavy cover. You'll absolutely kill the hell out of them in melee, sure, even with shooting termies (power fists hurt!), but unless you can lock the bikes down somehow, the terminators won't get the charge unless the Eldar player wants or needs to risk it. They can zip to just barely inside shuricannon range, then assault move right back out.

On the shooting, I was comparing a notional all-assault-cannon unit, though even there, comparing 5 models to 10 is not exactly apples-to-apples. What I was trying to suss out - but I was not clear about, my fault for posting when tired - was whether a 5-man termie squad with all assault cannons would have way too much killing power relative to cannonbikes. I concluded that mostly they would not, and so that might not be an entirely unreasonable upgrade.

Good point about board control though. Bikes are actually decent at that, with their mobility, but yeah, that's exactly what assault terminators are good for.

Of course its not unreasonable. Necrons and Eldar exist.

The Assault Cannon is strictly superior to the Shuriken Cannon. An additional shot, AP4, and *actual* rending are all huge freaking bonuses.

Is a Jetbike a better platform than Termie armor? Debatable.

But let's look at them shooting eachother. Bikes are in a good place for surviving Assault Cannons - armor save exactly one better than AP. Shuriken Cannons are at their best, relatively, against a 2+ armor save or a 5+ armor save. So the matchup is certainly tech'ed in the Jetbikes favor.

Jetbikes shooting Termies:
3x(2/3)(1/6)(2/3) = 3x 2/27 +
3x(2/3)(2/3)(1/6) = 3x 2/27
Total: 4/27 per shot, 4/9 per model

Termies shooting at Jetbikes:
4x(2/3)(1/6)(2/3 cover) = 4x 2/27 +
4x(2/3)(2/3)(1/3) = 4x 4/27
Total: 6/27 per shot, 8/9 per model

So, given that matchup, which heavily favors Termies, Termies kill ScatterBikes at twice the rate per model.

Now, consider the following:
-Jetbikes assumed to always be in Cover (Not unreasonable)
-Jetbikes never need to Flat Out to avoid CC (probable for a round or two)
-Jetbikes are about the worst target for Assault Cannons available
-Jetbikes have more mobility
-An Assault Cannon in the middle of the board can touch both sides


For Jetbikes kiting Termies, they have to assume their JSJ is 7+ inches, plus however far their range overlaps their target. A single inch puts them from 60% survive 40% die to 40% survive 60% die. And that's assuming infinite table space with no terrain or other units. On an actual 6x4 table, its quite possible they can't get out of range.

Also, Termies that deep strike within 12" not only get the alpha, but also ensure their target either is in range to be shot next turn, or doesn't get to shoot back.

Furthermore, when a Termie squad takes 25% casualties, it might fall back, which is bad. If a Bike squad does, its doomed.

Lastly, while Tue Bikes can kind of pull the Termies one way or another, the Termies can deny the bikes an 18" bubble. Going I there means quick and pasty CC death for Bikes. Termies can simply decide to sit somewhere, and Bikes can try to take them out over several turns. But Bikes can't similarly take a location.

Balancing anything against heavy weapon Jetbike spam is terribly broken for the rest of the game. But even compared to them, 35ppm Termies with Assault Cannons still destroy them. And destroy almost anything else even harder.

(Seriously, an AC outperforms a *lascannon* on anti-AV14 duty!)

"The Assault Cannon is strictly superior to the Shuriken Cannon."

I never said the shuriken cannon was a feared weapon. The scatter laser is.

" *actual* rending"

Only useful with massed up fire. Oh, wait. The Imperium CAN'T mass up assault cannons. They only get them here and there on terrible units like LRs and Land Speeders. Eldar have scatterlasers attached to their toilets, I bet. Most of the Eldar platforms are amazing and most of them can get scatterlasers.

"Is a Jetbike a better platform than Termie armor? Debatable. "

I don't think it's debatable at all.

"Balancing anything against heavy weapon Jetbike spam is terribly broken for the rest of the game."

Too bad. GW went there. And now we have to compete against Skyhammer silliness. Even if terminators magically had assault cannons the relentless devastators with GRAV CANNONS would just say "Nice cannon bro! Too bad you're dead!"

"So, given that matchup, which heavily favors Termies, Termies kill ScatterBikes at twice the rate per model. "

Something has to. It sure isn't anything BA currently have. At least BA would theoretically inherit the assault cannon terminators.

"But Bikes can't similarly take a location. "

Bikes take all the locations by default when they table the opponent.

"-An Assault Cannon in the middle of the board can touch both sides "

And can be reached by every AP 2 weapon in creation. Terminators with assault cannons are likely one-shot johnny units. Given that I personally have shot 17 GK terminators off the table in a single turn with lowly BA, I can only imagine what real lists will do to these guys.

You rail and rail against this idea all the while GW vomits out the Necrons, Eldar, and the new Marine codex with its special snowflake formation. This is the sound of the world's smallest violin playing for Eldar as someone proposes a unit that can threaten the scatterbike.

 Xerics wrote:

 raiden wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
Terminators just need the Necron Destroyer treatment. Give them an extra wound.

I'd actually be quite good with their cost if we could take a grav cannon. I'd -like- BS5 WS5 terminators, it would show they -are- veterans, but if we got two wounds, I'd think the price of a unit would go back up.

Take the strike force ultra, even without grav cannons it boosts terminators a nice bit.

You can take two ten man squads, combat squad and place two heavy weapons in the same squad. 6 krak missiles are bound to kill something...

Not to mention if you take tiggy the highly likely chance of having 4 5 man units of terminators in your face, but more than likely a storm Raven and a land raider crusader not far behind.

And another thing- a tac squad may be able to out shoot the terminators, but terminators have something tacs don't, the ability to get into combat and beat the crap out of alot of units.

Of course you would be ok with them if GW gave them the most powerful gun in the Space Marine Codex. Instead of making them cheaper centurions give them a real role in the battle.

You mean make them an actual threat by giving them a scary weapon, since they are talked about as "carrying the heaviest firepower of the chapter"

I was replying to the idea of giving ACs to Termies for free, and how that compared to Shuriken Cannons on Jetbikes. The idea that Shuriken Cannons are better than Assault Cannons side by side is completely wrong.

Scatter Lasers vs ACs is debatable, certainly. 12" longer range vs 3 better AP *plus* actual-rending is certainly a tradeoff.

Giving ACs on Termie armor at 35ppm *would* make them spamable and deadly. What wouldn't fear that? As is, I agree CWE can bring a Scatter Laser to bear much more readily than IoM can bring ACs, but we're discussing changing that.

Model-for-model, is 2+/5++, Deepstrike, and a Power Fist seem likes its not necessarily worse than a 3+/Jink/amazing movement. Jetbikes are criminally cheap, but Terminator armor is only bad because of the cost.

The fix for some broken stuff isn't stuff that's even more broken. Then you have the same complaints, only more frequently.

As for bikes taking any location, because they table anyone, its not true under proposed rules where they, instead, are tabled. Quite the opposite.

Eldar Jetbikes are OP. You keep suggesting making something (in this case Termies) so over the top OP that they hard-counter everything. By more than Jetbikes. And JetBikes at least don't counter some specific things. The last thing this game needs is *more* OP gak even further beyond everything that came above it.

In summary, the proposed change (35ppm Termies all get ACs for free) will dethrone Jetbikes, but will destroy everything even worse than Jetbikes do now. Not a good idea.

"The last thing this game needs is *more* OP gak even further beyond everything that came above it. "

GW disagrees with you and trumps both of us. The OP gak will continue, so we might as well go with it.

I still maintain that using the old price point of 40ppm for an assault cannon terminator is reasonable in the new normal of 40K.

"Model-for-model, is 2+/5++, Deepstrike, and a Power Fist seem likes its not necessarily worse"

But in practice, it is. Because the powerfist is never a thing and 5++ is not enough protection for a T4 W1 model that costs 35/40 pts.

"The idea that Shuriken Cannons are better than Assault Cannons side by side is completely wrong. "

As I said, the weapon I care about is the scatterlaser. Superior to the assault cannon most of the time and in the context of C:Eldar, superior 100% of the time, because high AV just gets D weaponed off the table and Eldar platforms are amazeballs.

The most accurate thing I can say is that I hope 40ppm AC Termies will continue to be an OP proposed rule.

I certainly agree with your premise. But not the conclusion.

Bharring wrote:
The most accurate thing I can say is that I hope 40ppm AC Termies will continue to be an OP proposed rule.

I certainly agree with your premise. But not the conclusion.

I've just stopped hoping for or caring about balance. Loyalist terminators have always been bad, and I want to see them be good just once. As I pointed out, my proposed terminators are still owned by skyhammer marines so yeah... GW still trumps my most extreme suggestions. Well played, GW. Well played.

I might equally suggest retooling the Scatter Laser -

24" S5 AP- Heavy 3, at its current cost. Only problem is, that makes it too weak, beaten out by the shuriken cannon and starcannon in every contest. Not sure what the right answer is, there. Heck, even making it an exact copy of the Imperial multilaser, it's still too good 75% of the time.

There are plenty of dead threads on the SL. Fun times. Usually boils down to either S5, or up the points to match Assault cannons.

Most seem to prefer the former, as an amazing amount of things start to make sense.

At any rate, you could start another thread if you want to rehash it?

Bharring wrote:
There are plenty of dead threads on the SL. Fun times. Usually boils down to either S5, or up the points to match Assault cannons.

Most seem to prefer the former, as an amazing amount of things start to make sense.

At any rate, you could start another thread if you want to rehash it?

I'm not rehashing it. I'm just saying that as the Eldar, Necrons, and Space Marine codices currently exist, I can justify assault cannon tac terminators.

40 ppm for AC tac terminators would be too over the top.

Add that in for strike force ultra

That's easily 100 assault cannon shots the turn they come in. (For 800 pts)

Shooting at 5 things....

I still vote two heavy weapons per 5 and access to grav cannons at 25 pts would be enough.

 raiden wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

 raiden wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
Terminators just need the Necron Destroyer treatment. Give them an extra wound.

I'd actually be quite good with their cost if we could take a grav cannon. I'd -like- BS5 WS5 terminators, it would show they -are- veterans, but if we got two wounds, I'd think the price of a unit would go back up.

Take the strike force ultra, even without grav cannons it boosts terminators a nice bit.

You can take two ten man squads, combat squad and place two heavy weapons in the same squad. 6 krak missiles are bound to kill something...

Not to mention if you take tiggy the highly likely chance of having 4 5 man units of terminators in your face, but more than likely a storm Raven and a land raider crusader not far behind.

And another thing- a tac squad may be able to out shoot the terminators, but terminators have something tacs don't, the ability to get into combat and beat the crap out of alot of units.

Of course you would be ok with them if GW gave them the most powerful gun in the Space Marine Codex. Instead of making them cheaper centurions give them a real role in the battle.

You mean make them an actual threat by giving them a scary weapon, since they are talked about as "carrying the heaviest firepower of the chapter"

Read the 2nd part. Give them a combat role that isn't already filled by centurions.

 Xerics wrote:

 raiden wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

 raiden wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
Terminators just need the Necron Destroyer treatment. Give them an extra wound.

I'd actually be quite good with their cost if we could take a grav cannon. I'd -like- BS5 WS5 terminators, it would show they -are- veterans, but if we got two wounds, I'd think the price of a unit would go back up.

Take the strike force ultra, even without grav cannons it boosts terminators a nice bit.

You can take two ten man squads, combat squad and place two heavy weapons in the same squad. 6 krak missiles are bound to kill something...

Not to mention if you take tiggy the highly likely chance of having 4 5 man units of terminators in your face, but more than likely a storm Raven and a land raider crusader not far behind.

And another thing- a tac squad may be able to out shoot the terminators, but terminators have something tacs don't, the ability to get into combat and beat the crap out of alot of units.

Of course you would be ok with them if GW gave them the most powerful gun in the Space Marine Codex. Instead of making them cheaper centurions give them a real role in the battle.

You mean make them an actual threat by giving them a scary weapon, since they are talked about as "carrying the heaviest firepower of the chapter"

Read the 2nd part. Give them a combat role that isn't already filled by centurions.

Tactically place firepower with a threat of following assualt and much less tarpit potential.

Thats the exact role that Centurions fill... drop ood them in anywhere on the field Tactically placing firepower and they are still pretty good in close combat. Terminators need a role that isnt already filled.

 Xerics wrote:
Thats the exact role that Centurions fill... drop ood them in anywhere on the field Tactically placing firepower and they are still pretty good in close combat. Terminators need a role that isnt already filled.

You mean their 3-4(total) ws4 str5 ap- attacks?;

The role terminators are supposed to have already filled? Like before centuiarns? The elite SM troops whose whole idea was to be the unit to take out the largest threats on the field?