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 TheKbob wrote:


Mine didn't for organized play. Also, I believe zero FW was allowed (or greatly restricted), also because the store didn't sell it. And also because a ton of FW these days is more Forgery World.

So if you have paid full price for proper forge world models you get the shaft because others might have some knockoffs on the table? So did they expect everyone to completely rebuild their armies only using minis bought from the store too? What a bunch of lunacy. Wow even if they had a convenient night I would not bother to ever play at that store. Also really nice to screw over Sisters players even more as if they have a say in the fact that their codex is only available in e-format.

Skriker

 kronk wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
I really don't get the argument that by using an E Codex you are flipping off the store owner.

It involves self-centered arrogance and greed.

If you play in a store, you should buy from the store.

So if I find a new store, I'm not allowed to bring my already built armies there?

 Melissia wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
I really don't get the argument that by using an E Codex you are flipping off the store owner.

It involves self-centered arrogance and greed.

If you play in a store, you should buy from the store.

So if I find a new store, I'm not allowed to bring my already built armies there?

Clearly, you should sell your army to the store owner and then buy it back at a markup. It's only fair.

 j31c3n wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
I really don't get the argument that by using an E Codex you are flipping off the store owner.

It involves self-centered arrogance and greed.

If you play in a store, you should buy from the store.

So if I find a new store, I'm not allowed to bring my already built armies there?

Clearly, you should sell your army to the store owner and then buy it back at a markup. It's only fair.

Unless they decide to keep it. There might be some rare or well done models in there.

So at the tournament yesterday someone brought a Daemon army and won. This made my happy since the normal 2 winners did not win, and Chaos was on top, even if it was not CSM. However upon looking at his list, (I did not play him) I see he had Belakor. The TO did not check lists closely, but one of the guys he played, who thinks digital stuff should be allowed, let the guy know Belakor was technically illegal in this store. However I think this is a step in the right direction into getting us the ability to use atleast the digital only models and armies in the store.

 Melissia wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
I really don't get the argument that by using an E Codex you are flipping off the store owner.

It involves self-centered arrogance and greed.

If you play in a store, you should buy from the store.

So if I find a new store, I'm not allowed to bring my already built armies there?

I don't care for strawman arguments. I never said you can't bring things you already own to a store, and I think you know better than that, Melissa.

My stance is, again, if I am playing game X at a store, and something new comes out for game x, then I buy that something new from the store I'm playing at.

Dataslates and codecies that are only available in digital form... obviously you can't buy that from the store, which you conveniently cut out from that quote.

What you do is your own business, obviously.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Aren't all of the new codex unit entries now dataslates?

SJ

yes but they are in order in a book so I guess that makes them okay

This looks like more of a store owner trying to do "the right thing" by doing the only thing he can really think of on how to solve it. If what Ir0njack says is true, this owner saw one bad egg ruin the fun for everyone else. Which in addition to affecting his sales and running customers out of the store, it also goes against the spirit of the game. Something that the OP has said that the owner is passionate about. So banning the TFG is a no-brainer, but how can he prevent that issue from arising again? So, his logical course of action was the banning of digital content since it can be altered. While this blanket solution isn't optimal, it did resolve his issue. At best, It's only a temporary fix though. Just because you covered a hole with duct tape doesn't mean you don't eventually want to get it fixed.

From what i've been reading from redleger and Ir0njack, this owner isn't some tyrannical jerk that only wants money and to have things his way like a lot of posters are suggesting. It sound's like he's a cool, friendly local owner that wants everyone to enjoy the game and is trying to make it so everyone does. He is just having issues fulfilling that goal. Sounds like he's like us, a fellow player who is trying to make money doing something he loves. How is that any different from a commission painter making something he's proud of or a top tournament player aiming for grand prize? I think a more constructive way to take this thread would be to possibly help redleger with some suggestions he can take to his FLGS to help allow dataslates, digital codexes, and other digital aids instead of telling him to find a new place to play. If the FLGS owner is as cool of a guy as implied, I don't forsee it being a problem.

Then the question arises, how can you still support a fun, friendly, competitive gaming environment while still preventing cheating and TFGs from becoming an issue? My suggestion is have copies of everything as a resource in the store. That means a store version of the BRB, printed dataslates, supplements, and in the case of sisters, a printed version of the digital dex. They can all be printed copies of the digital dexs for all I care, they are there just as a resource after all. Thus shouldn't be getting use in tournaments. (If your playing an army in a tournament, you should have your own codex, not a loaner.) Providing these resources can both prevent cheating by having a source to fact check against discrepancies in lists and have an overall blanket of rulebooks to help newer players that haven't bought a book, are trying an army, or just can't quite remember how many dice to roll when firing a storm bolter. This would also help the gamers be able to police themselves if they suspect someone of cheating instead of putting the full responsibility on the store owner, further encouraging a positive gaming community. Player's get to play the armies the way they want to, there is a hard copy of everything so if someone is cheating they can get caught and tossed, owner gets his happy gaming store. Everyone wins.

TLDR: Provide players a way to prevent cheating and the only bad guy will be the cheater.

That solution is so blindingly simple and obvious that I can only conclude that the store owner in question is an imbecile.

Wow it surprises me how one question from an inexperienced player (me) has led to so much hate towards a person none of them know. Mr Piddlez is correct in everything he has stated, and exalted for truth.

However I never thought of having him print out the Dataslates. I would even pay the 5 dollars to have the Chaos Slates printed out as hard copies in the store so that I could use them. I would immediately order belakor and 2 more Helbrutes from him in response as well.

Thank you Mr Piddlez for the well thought out response.

 redleger wrote:
Wow it surprises me how one question from an inexperienced player (me) has led to so much hate towards a person none of them know. Mr Piddlez is correct in everything he has stated, and exalted for truth.

However I never thought of having him print out the Dataslates. I would even pay the 5 dollars to have the Chaos Slates printed out as hard copies in the store so that I could use them. I would immediately order belakor and 2 more Helbrutes from him in response as well.

Thank you Mr Piddlez for the well thought out response.

Not a problem, It's not often that I'm right, so it's a nice change.

I don't foresee it being a problem for him, plus it also would also open the door towards letting other data slates be used. Since your also volunteering to buy them, It's not a big investment on his part. Which could easily establish a simple rule. "If you want to play a data slate, provide a printed copy to the store." I think that's reasonable. Let me know how it turns out.

I think you're confusing people being honest with 'hate'. Frankly, your owner is being pretty stupid in this ban, there's no way to sugar coat that or make it 'nice' to hear. He needs to hear it, though. Right now, the policy is stupid, but it can be changed and fixed.

While I disagree with the ban on digital sources, I don't feel like it was unjustified or stupid nor was the owner stupid or unjustified in his decision. As i said before, this is a temporary fix at best. You can splint a broken leg but you still need to get a cast on it when you have time to set it properly.

My best guess is there was some major backlash when people found out about TFG that had been cheating and altering his digital codex. So after the angry mob was done with him then they probably turned the torches and pitchforks on the owner for not foreseeing/preventing/casting divination on the cheater. People can be fickle like that, and there always has to be someone to blame. So my best guess is that the digital content ban was created right there on the spot to ease minds and provide a "fix". Is it optimal? No. Is it justified? Yes.

Keep in mind that the redleger and Ir0njack both stated that this is the ONLY store for miles around. Which means he's catering to all types of players. That means competitive, casual, WAAC, and the less desirable players like cheaters. It's probably hard enough to keep the peace as is. Cut the guy a little slack, he's probably doing the best he can. In the end, it's a game full of tiny plastic men. It's not worth getting this worked up about.

Talked with the owner today, and he is thinking of just not carring Games Workshop inventory anymore. Basically with the push of GW to sell more of the Fantasy stuff from the website, and pushing less models and now no books for Fantasy to the brick and mortar stores, it would begin to become a detriment. This saddens me because all the cool people I have met since playing have been in the store. I am hoping it doesn't come to this. GW won't let you only carry 40k so if he quits fantasy, then 40k is doomed as well.

like i said, it sounds like he is determined to lose business based on nonsense personal beliefs

i know the GW does not make it easy for FLGS owners but the answer to that is not "ban GW from store" unless you're allergic to money

 redleger wrote:
Talked with the owner today, and he is thinking of just not carring Games Workshop inventory anymore. Basically with the push of GW to sell more of the Fantasy stuff from the website, and pushing less models and now no books for Fantasy to the brick and mortar stores, it would begin to become a detriment. This saddens me because all the cool people I have met since playing have been in the store. I am hoping it doesn't come to this. GW won't let you only carry 40k so if he quits fantasy, then 40k is doomed as well.

Will that mean he will not allow ANY GW in store?

If so man i hope him luck.

You can always start a garage club. Its much more controllable and is not that hard.

AT best you need to invest about 1-200 in tables and terrain which is simple enough if everyone contributes.

 Desubot wrote:

 redleger wrote:
Talked with the owner today, and he is thinking of just not carring Games Workshop inventory anymore. Basically with the push of GW to sell more of the Fantasy stuff from the website, and pushing less models and now no books for Fantasy to the brick and mortar stores, it would begin to become a detriment. This saddens me because all the cool people I have met since playing have been in the store. I am hoping it doesn't come to this. GW won't let you only carry 40k so if he quits fantasy, then 40k is doomed as well.

Will that mean he will not allow ANY GW in store?

If so man i hope him luck.

You can always start a garage club. Its much more controllable and is not that hard.

AT best you need to invest about 1-200 in tables and terrain which is simple enough if everyone contributes.

He is likely to move on to other games. I already host a game in my garage, so I could easily start opening up more space and get something more going. I do think it might be suicide though. I don't think comics and board games alone will keep him afloat, but I have no idea what his business statements look like. I will start planning ahead though. I have been wanting to build a new table.

 redleger wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 redleger wrote:
Talked with the owner today, and he is thinking of just not carring Games Workshop inventory anymore. Basically with the push of GW to sell more of the Fantasy stuff from the website, and pushing less models and now no books for Fantasy to the brick and mortar stores, it would begin to become a detriment. This saddens me because all the cool people I have met since playing have been in the store. I am hoping it doesn't come to this. GW won't let you only carry 40k so if he quits fantasy, then 40k is doomed as well.

Will that mean he will not allow ANY GW in store?

If so man i hope him luck.

You can always start a garage club. Its much more controllable and is not that hard.

AT best you need to invest about 1-200 in tables and terrain which is simple enough if everyone contributes.

He is likely to move on to other games. I already host a game in my garage, so I could easily start opening up more space and get something more going. I do think it might be suicide though. I don't think comics and board games alone will keep him afloat, but I have no idea what his business statements look like. I will start planning ahead though. I have been wanting to build a new table.

Expect destruction.

Unless he is actively promoting other game systems no one will really play besides MTG maybe (Because that sells its self) but MOST people play GW so cutting them out is kinda a bad idea :/

If he has (decent terrain) and he is legity rage quitting try to pick it off em for cheap.

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
Thus shouldn't be getting use in tournaments. (If your playing an army in a tournament, you should have your own codex, not a loaner.)

So you're all for banning Sisters from tournaments, because Sisters don't have a physical codex?

If the rule is hard set, you can't use digital codices, then this still doesn't solve the problem.

Eventually, the store owner is going to have to take his head out of his ass and trust his customers, or LOSE his customers.

It's not worth getting this worked up about.

Have you seen the pricetag on a Sisters army?

 redleger wrote:
Talked with the owner today, and he is thinking of just not carring Games Workshop inventory anymore. Basically with the push of GW to sell more of the Fantasy stuff from the website, and pushing less models and now no books for Fantasy to the brick and mortar stores, it would begin to become a detriment. This saddens me because all the cool people I have met since playing have been in the store. I am hoping it doesn't come to this. GW won't let you only carry 40k so if he quits fantasy, then 40k is doomed as well.

More and more LGS are going that way. They get fed up with having to jump through GW's hoops to carry their product. Why waste valuable shelf space on a company that treats you as a competitor instead of a ally. GW is it own worst enemy.

 redleger wrote:
Talked with the owner today, and he is thinking of just not carring Games Workshop inventory anymore. Basically with the push of GW to sell more of the Fantasy stuff from the website, and pushing less models and now no books for Fantasy to the brick and mortar stores, it would begin to become a detriment. This saddens me because all the cool people I have met since playing have been in the store. I am hoping it doesn't come to this. GW won't let you only carry 40k so if he quits fantasy, then 40k is doomed as well.

Thats unfortunate, I know the owner loves his 40k so it would be a hard decision. I couldn't blame him though, alot of the fantasy vets to just want nothing to do with AoS from what I've seen. It it wouldn't put a end to the the tourneys or 40k sundays though so there's that at least. With all the other hobbies the store plays host to as well the financial state of the store wouldn't take a hit I think, if it would I don't think he would be entertaining the idea to stop stocking GW. Btw I stopped in last sunday and bummed around for abit, wasnt sure who you were of if you were attending so I just limped around with my cane and watched the tourney for awhile.

Also, Mr_Piddlez you hit the nail on the head, thanks for understanding. Nice to see someone who gets it. With all of the exaggerated vitrol over our FLGS you would think that some people would want to set fire to the store and drag the owner into the street and beat him to death.

I'm just dipping my toes in the water again after not playing for a couple of years and never heard of a data slate. Here's the numero uno reason our game stores frowned on laptops and pdfs before though.. as long as people can find pdfs online they never have to pay GW another cent for overpriced paper books
Btw, I'm an old school pencil and paper guy. I get a laugh out of the newer generation that don't know how to function without a computer in their hand. The only "electronic gaming aid" I know is a calculator to check my point totals

 Brotherjulian wrote:
Btw, I'm an old school pencil and paper guy. I get a laugh out of the newer generation that don't know how to function without a computer in their hand. The only "electronic gaming aid" I know is a calculator to check my point totals

I use an abacus. I get a laugh out of the newer generation who can't function without an electronic adding machine to check their math for them.

Melissia wrote:

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
Thus shouldn't be getting use in tournaments. (If your playing an army in a tournament, you should have your own codex, not a loaner.)

So you're all for banning Sisters from tournaments, because Sisters don't have a physical codex?

If the rule is hard set, you can't use digital codices, then this still doesn't solve the problem.

Eventually, the store owner is going to have to take his head out of his ass and trust his customers, or LOSE his customers.

The point I was trying to illustrate was that there should be a hard copy at the store to prevent cheating. So people CAN use their digital codexes. At no point was I trying to imply that sisters can't be played in a tournament. Just that you owned your own codex, AKA not using the store version at a tournament.

Psienesis wrote:

It's not worth getting this worked up about.

Have you seen the pricetag on a Sisters army?

I've seen the price tag for one squad for a sisters army and that was enough for me to not look further. So I guess for a SoB player, you can get as worked up as you want.

As for as the subject at hand, I'm sorry to hear he's doing that redleger, but I can understand why he's doing that. From what i've been reading WHFB flopped pretty hard because of end times. Which made it almost pointless for a store to hold onto fantasy product. Since GW also cares very little for the FLGS model, it makes plenty of sense that they REQUIRE the store to stock all GW products. Effectively making the store have to take a "fantasy tax" to stock 40k. If I owned a store, I wouldn't want to stock fantasy either considering there's a pretty good chance I would never sell the product.

No one wants to lose money and from what I've seen from the FLGS's in my area, its more trouble than its worth to deal with GW about 75% of the time. (Missing product in shipments that GW refuses to replace, Broken finecast that GW refuses to replace, Missing orders completely that, you guessed it, GW refuses to replace.) From what I've seen, It often costs the store MORE money to fulfill a GW order for someone rather than someone buying it themselves online. Which made it so they that they just stopped ordering for people. So i understand completely why he'd be shying away from GW. Keep in mind, before most of you people light your torches and sharpen your pitchforks, this is not the store's fault. ANY company that makes it increasingly harder for you to do business with them is going to make you think twice about doing business with them again. If GW was a smaller company, they would of gone the way of the dodo long ago. Unfortunately that is not the case. Plus they've got this whole "too big to fail" mentality that makes it even harder for them to see their problems.

What this means for redleger and Ir0njack is that this FLGS is no longer going to be supporting GW's jackassery. That does NOT mean he isn't supporting the community. I'd still let people play the game in the store and let them play their tournaments. I don't see why he wouldn't either. Just make it handled by the players. Players decide what is allowed and what isn't. Players form the tournaments. Players collect the entry money for tournaments and divide it up for prizes. Players manage it, not him. Next thing I would approach him about is letting your gaming club use the space. Maybe he'll donate it, maybe he'll rent it to you. I suspect it wont be a big deal either way. One upside to this approach, from what you said about the tournament, sounds like most of the gaming club has no issue with dataslates. So at least that problem is solved.

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
At no point was I trying to imply that sisters can't be played in a tournament. Just that you owned your own codex, AKA not using the store version at a tournament.

Except in tournaments at that store, only physical codices are accepted. Not digital. Because of the store owners' irrational behavior.

 Melissia wrote:

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
At no point was I trying to imply that sisters can't be played in a tournament. Just that you owned your own codex, AKA not using the store version at a tournament.

Except in tournaments at that store, only physical codices are accepted. Not digital. Because of the store owners' irrational behavior.

Did you miss the part of my post where there was a printed copy of the sisters book at the store, a printed copy of the digital dex? I'll repost it and make it bold and underlined to help make it clearer.

Then the question arises, how can you still support a fun, friendly, competitive gaming environment while still preventing cheating and TFGs from becoming an issue? My suggestion is have copies of everything as a resource in the store. That means a store version of the BRB, printed dataslates, supplements, and in the case of sisters, a printed version of the digital dex. They can all be printed copies of the digital dexs for all I care, they are there just as a resource after all.

This is what I intended. That there is a copy of all dex's so ALL armies can be played. So there is NO question about people using digital dex's in tournaments since there is a resource to fact check against.

conker249 wrote:My FLGS will do forge world orders, but adds 10% to the total cost(after you already pay the 10% for the shipping). I make the store sound horrible, but these complaints bug me and are related to the topic.

I don't think the store sounds horrible at all, based ONLY on the 10% thing.

Peregrine wrote:
1. The only reason to do a FW order through a store is to combine a bunch of smaller orders and reach the free shipping threshold. 2. If you're paying the store 10% for their "service" you aren't saving money. 3. I'm glad that nobody falls for this scam, but WTF is the store owner thinking?

Numbered for your convenience:

1. There are other reasons to order through a store, such as described previously: Living in an area where packages would be stolen if left, and inconvenient pickup location for UPS/Fedex or whatever. Why not pick it up at a store you're going to anyhow?
2. Retail stores aren't about saving you money. They're a place for you to LOSE money, specifically designed as places for you to pay someone else for goods and services.
3. It's not a scam. He's being completely transparent in asking for a 10% fee to order your package, be responsible for handling and storing your package, and notifying you of when your package arrives. To be honest, 10% is a really modest fee. He's not really -making- anything off of that. Just barely recouping lost time and real estate from dealing with it. And WTF is he thinking? Probably that he has to pay the mortgage/rent and electric to keep the lights on and the doors open in your FLGS.

Maybe we collectively should think about whether or not having such stores around to play games at for free is worth something to us. For me, it is. I will always find a way to put money into the pocket of a store I frequent for play, likely every time I go there. I may or may not order forgeworld from such a store. There are ups and downs to the proposition, but I certainly wouldn't hold it against the FLGS for doing it that way. As a business owner/manager, I understand how overhead works, and nothing is free. The store HAS to make money, or there will be no store. Oftentimes, customers lose sight of this all the way up until their favorite store is closing it's doors permenently.

 Ir0njack wrote:

 redleger wrote:
Talked with the owner today, and he is thinking of just not carring Games Workshop inventory anymore. Basically with the push of GW to sell more of the Fantasy stuff from the website, and pushing less models and now no books for Fantasy to the brick and mortar stores, it would begin to become a detriment. This saddens me because all the cool people I have met since playing have been in the store. I am hoping it doesn't come to this. GW won't let you only carry 40k so if he quits fantasy, then 40k is doomed as well.

Thats unfortunate, I know the owner loves his 40k so it would be a hard decision. I couldn't blame him though, alot of the fantasy vets to just want nothing to do with AoS from what I've seen. It it wouldn't put a end to the the tourneys or 40k sundays though so there's that at least. With all the other hobbies the store plays host to as well the financial state of the store wouldn't take a hit I think, if it would I don't think he would be entertaining the idea to stop stocking GW. Btw I stopped in last sunday and bummed around for abit, wasnt sure who you were of if you were attending so I just limped around with my cane and watched the tourney for awhile.

Also, Mr_Piddlez you hit the nail on the head, thanks for understanding. Nice to see someone who gets it. With all of the exaggerated vitrol over our FLGS you would think that some people would want to set fire to the store and drag the owner into the street and beat him to death.

I was there. I saw you, figured that might be you. I had the 6 riptides who was doing horribly against the SM army full of land raiders. I did however destroy the player with the 7 Eldar flyers so I walked away with my head high. His Stompa died turn 2 without even killing a model. I was worried too when I saw it. 20 point Velocity Tracker made its points up.

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
Did you miss the part of my post where there was a printed copy of the sisters book at the store, a printed copy of the digital dex?

I couldn't reconcile that part with the part that said "only physical copies are respected".