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This thread isn't to debate skyhammer and IC's. Let's assume you can attach IC's and assault turn 1. Then lets see how broken we can make it.
Load up on jump packs for the librarians in the conclave and attach to the assault squads.
Take daemonology.
Turn 1, devistators combat squad to try and pin as many enemy units as possible. Assault marines and librarians land and assault something squishy, to hide the librarians in combat. Start summoning daemons from the conclaves, in your opponents deployment zone.
Can you bring in enough daemons to make this work?

I laughed at this at first, but after a little thinking I think it could be quite nasty against a lot of lists.

On it's own, you're not really going to be able to summon enough for it to be worth it. 6 +d6 warp charges isn't really enough to be able to summon a whole lot of daemons, even when harnessing them on a 2+. It seems like you'd want to go all in for more warp charges if you want to pull this off.

The other big issue is that the majority (it seems to me anyway) of tournaments rule that you can't cast multiples of the same power from one unit. So assuming you roll up one of each (primaris, Incursion, Sacrifice, and Possession) you can create a maximum of 4 units per psychic phase, one of which is a squishy herald with no where to to, and the other while a Greater Daemon, requires you to sacrifice the caster (so no more warp charges on a 2+) Best case scenario 1 unit of Daemonettes or Hounds, one unit of 3 Plague Drones or Bloodcrushers, and a Greater Daemon (probably a KoS or GUO). Which I guess is pretty good, but I don't know if it's good enough to warrant investing so heavily in what feels like a rather gimmicky strategy. I'd also want to be pushing those summonings through on 4 dice so that you don't waste 3 should you roll a 1. Meaning I'd wanna start with at least 12 dice minimum.

If you can pull that off again next turn it could be pretty overwhelming, but there's by no means any guarantees that you will. Most people are going to do anything they can to make sure your summoners die, and if they don't get stuck in combat then it won't be hard to do. Even if they do get in combat, assault heavy armies are likely to be able to accomplish it as well. Then there's the fact that you had to kill off one of your librarians to get that Greater Daemon meaning you have 3 less summoning powers than before. assuming you are smart and made the lead caster one with duplicate powers it might not matter that much to your summoning ability. IF you do however pull off another round of summoning similar to the first your opponent might be in trouble. You're also looking at a lot of "one eye open" tests turn 2 which could prove problematic.

I guess a lot of it comes down to the support you bring for it as to whether or not it's viable. If using a 3 source format, Daemons seem like a natural candidate for backup since you obviously don't care about CtA allies and they have plenty of cheap warp charges to power the summoning batteries.

For all the reasons astro mentioned, I'd probably go a different rout with the psykers, but I'd still use the librarians.

I'd likely go for sanctic Daemonology for hammerhand, invisibility, and other things to make a deathstar that can assault turn 1. Further, going with sanctic daemonology can also result in getting gate of infinity, which should allow you to teleport around the board and continue to assault after teleporting due to the assault marines rule that allows them to assault after deep striking. I'd probably look into a way to ensure they don't scatter when they're gating around the board. Out of curiousity, can Tigerius be taken in the Librarian Conclave?

From what I've heard so far, it sounds like the Space Marine version of the Eldar Seer council is better at being psykers than the Eldar are, which is silly, but not entirely surprising.

Tigerius can be part of the conclave.

Conclave is 3 to 5 librarians, and they don't all have to be in the same unit, just near each other. If 1 in near the main guy, he's harnessing on a 3+, if 2 are, it's on a 2+.

So, take 4 or 5 librarians, and pair the main guy near the guys who have different powers, and toss the other 1 or 2 in the other assault squad.

In the 3 source format, you can park a horror battery (allied detachment of chaos daemons, 1-4 heralds of tzeench and 1 unit of horrors) in the backfield, hidden. (so you're looking at something like 20 +D6 warp charges)

That would let you drop the marines turn 1, have the right mix of powers more often than not, and plenty of dice for the summoning.

My marine codex just showed up, so I'll have to mull it over for a bit, but I think the skyhammer daemon bomb is viable, funny, and very out of the box.
Too bad chaos marines can't get a turn 1 deep strike and assault, and massed pinning, IMO this is how a daemon incursion should work.

Arent you still mishapping on ANY rolls of doubles thanks to Daemonology Maelefic? Or did I miss something that gave SMs a buff from their arch enemies? Or are people just trying to cheese it by allying Daemons with SM through summoning suicide? lol

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Arent you still mishapping on ANY rolls of doubles thanks to Daemonology Maelefic? Or did I miss something that gave SMs a buff from their arch enemies? Or are people just trying to cheese it by allying Daemons with SM through summoning suicide? lol

You succeed on a 2+, making it much easier to avoid pairs.

Just cheesin' it. The librarius conclave casts all of its powers through one librarian and pass warp charges on a 2+ though so mishaps wont happen quite as often as youll generally use around 4 dice per cast

Lol thats a pretty big oversight on GWs part... Space Marines being able to summon their arch nemesi to aid them? hmmm.... lol

Forge the narrative brah. Spehss mehreens and pretty much everyone else have been able to do it since 7th ed dropped it just wasnt very feasible for space marines to do it until this formation came around.

Just fluffed out a list with 12 level 2 librarians. A demi-company can have up to 3 command elements, so triple conclave is totally possible.
Coming out of drop pods, it's 24 +D6 warp charges, each getting used on a 2+.
That's the same casting power as 42 +D6 dice on a 4+.

What's even more stupid, since 1 librarian from each group can use the powers all the other 3 in the group, you can have the useless guy do the summoning turn 1 (and then roll possession). It's totally possible to get 3-5 summon/incursions off AND 3 possessions, and then do it again turn 2.

Being able to throw 1 die at sacrafice (2+ = success), and turn a tactical marine into herald of slaanesh on a seeker chariot is just funny.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Just fluffed out a list with 12 level 2 librarians. A demi-company can have up to 3 command elements, so triple conclave is totally possible.
Coming out of drop pods, it's 24 +D6 warp charges, each getting used on a 2+.
That's the same casting power as 42 +D6 dice on a 4+.

What's even more stupid, since 1 librarian from each group can use the powers all the other 3 in the group, you can have the useless guy do the summoning turn 1 (and then roll possession). It's totally possible to get 3-5 summon/incursions off AND 3 possessions, and then do it again turn 2.

Being able to throw 1 die at sacrafice (2+ = success), and turn a tactical marine into herald of slaanesh on a seeker chariot is just funny.

That's hilariously awesome. Although coming up with all the necessary models is a right PITA!

The Liberians don't have access to the ability to summon daemons. There is currently a mis-print in the physical codex that just says daemonology, but my digital codex says santic powers only. Sorry until it is FAQed i'd have to argue that you do not have the ability to summon daemons. As the SM codex just say daemonology, but all the other codex specific state which version or both version of daemonology you have access to.

Also very unfluffly, sir.

 Glitcha wrote:
The Liberians don't have access to the ability to summon daemons. There is currently a mis-print in the physical codex that just says daemonology, but my digital codex says santic powers only. Sorry until it is FAQed i'd have to argue that you do not have the ability to summon daemons. As the SM codex just say daemonology, but all the other codex specific state which version or both version of daemonology you have access to.

Also very unfluffly, sir.

Unfluffly for a chapter to fall to chaos and go renegade? Happens pretty often if you read the fluff. Happens far more often than a lot of the allies you see getting tossed around.
Had not heard about issues with the mis-print in the digital codex. How do you know it's the hardback that is a typo?

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
The Liberians don't have access to the ability to summon daemons. There is currently a mis-print in the physical codex that just says daemonology, but my digital codex says santic powers only. Sorry until it is FAQed i'd have to argue that you do not have the ability to summon daemons. As the SM codex just say daemonology, but all the other codex specific state which version or both version of daemonology you have access to.

Also very unfluffly, sir.

Unfluffly for a chapter to fall to chaos and go renegade? Happens pretty often if you read the fluff. Happens far more often than a lot of the allies you see getting tossed around.
Had not heard about issues with the mis-print in the digital codex. How do you know it's the hardback that is a typo?

-Matt

The reason I believe the hard back has the mistake in it is because the wording on the page is word for word the same as the digital. Its not until I select the link for my daemonology powers does it say daemonology-Santic. I own both the physical book and the digital. I believe BoLS or Spiky bitz did an article about it last week as well.

 Glitcha wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
The Liberians don't have access to the ability to summon daemons. There is currently a mis-print in the physical codex that just says daemonology, but my digital codex says santic powers only. Sorry until it is FAQed i'd have to argue that you do not have the ability to summon daemons. As the SM codex just say daemonology, but all the other codex specific state which version or both version of daemonology you have access to.

Also very unfluffly, sir.

Unfluffly for a chapter to fall to chaos and go renegade? Happens pretty often if you read the fluff. Happens far more often than a lot of the allies you see getting tossed around.
Had not heard about issues with the mis-print in the digital codex. How do you know it's the hardback that is a typo?

-Matt

The reason I believe the hard back has the mistake in it is because the wording on the page is word for word the same as the digital. Its not until I select the link for my daemonology powers does it say daemonology-Santic. I own both the physical book and the digital. I believe BoLS or Spiky bitz did an article about it last week as well.

So printed, it just says daemonology? I'd say more likely it's a faulty link then. Since I won't actually be running 12 librarians, it doesn't matter to me either way, but it will be interesting to see how GW resolves this.

What's even more stupid is that you really DON'T have to use the Conclave special ability (generate at 3+ or 2+).

With that many psykers, just roll one or two dice per model SOLO.

That's insane.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Just fluffed out a list with 12 level 2 librarians. A demi-company can have up to 3 command elements, so triple conclave is totally possible.
Coming out of drop pods, it's 24 +D6 warp charges, each getting used on a 2+.
That's the same casting power as 42 +D6 dice on a 4+.

What's even more stupid, since 1 librarian from each group can use the powers all the other 3 in the group, you can have the useless guy do the summoning turn 1 (and then roll possession). It's totally possible to get 3-5 summon/incursions off AND 3 possessions, and then do it again turn 2.

Being able to throw 1 die at sacrafice (2+ = success), and turn a tactical marine into herald of slaanesh on a seeker chariot is just funny.

How many Daemon units can they generate over the course of 5 turns?

40?

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Just fluffed out a list with 12 level 2 librarians. A demi-company can have up to 3 command elements, so triple conclave is totally possible.
Coming out of drop pods, it's 24 +D6 warp charges, each getting used on a 2+.
That's the same casting power as 42 +D6 dice on a 4+.

What's even more stupid, since 1 librarian from each group can use the powers all the other 3 in the group, you can have the useless guy do the summoning turn 1 (and then roll possession). It's totally possible to get 3-5 summon/incursions off AND 3 possessions, and then do it again turn 2.

Being able to throw 1 die at sacrafice (2+ = success), and turn a tactical marine into herald of slaanesh on a seeker chariot is just funny.

How many Daemon units can they generate over the course of 5 turns?

40?

Entirely depends on your opponents ability to deal with the librarians and what you're spitting out. If you're lucky enough to get Sacrifice, Summon and Incursion in each group, then it's very possible to create 9 units a turn, which in turn could be psykers, giving more dice and powers for the next phase. In a standoff summoning contest, this conclave should out summon any other daemonbomb, thanks to the 2+ thing.

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Lol thats a pretty big oversight on GWs part... Space Marines being able to summon their arch nemesi to aid them? hmmm.... lol

Just because you CAN be a dick doesn't absolve yourself of personal responsibility if you choose to act on it.

Sadly 40k has become M:TG. Choose your opponents wisely...

 CT GAMER wrote:

Just because you CAN be a dick doesn't absolve yourself of personal responsibility if you choose to act on it.

Sadly 40k has become M:TG. Choose your opponents wisely...

Your point has no meaning. The rulebook literally says to discuss with your opponent before the game what kind of things you want to use in the game.

You can't make anyone play against something they don't want to play against. To do so is explicitly cheating.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Just fluffed out a list with 12 level 2 librarians. A demi-company can have up to 3 command elements, so triple conclave is totally possible.
Coming out of drop pods, it's 24 +D6 warp charges, each getting used on a 2+.
That's the same casting power as 42 +D6 dice on a 4+.

What's even more stupid, since 1 librarian from each group can use the powers all the other 3 in the group, you can have the useless guy do the summoning turn 1 (and then roll possession). It's totally possible to get 3-5 summon/incursions off AND 3 possessions, and then do it again turn 2.

Being able to throw 1 die at sacrafice (2+ = success), and turn a tactical marine into herald of slaanesh on a seeker chariot is just funny.

How many Daemon units can they generate over the course of 5 turns?

40?

Entirely depends on your opponents ability to deal with the librarians and what you're spitting out. If you're lucky enough to get Sacrifice, Summon and Incursion in each group, then it's very possible to create 9 units a turn, which in turn could be psykers, giving more dice and powers for the next phase. In a standoff summoning contest, this conclave should out summon any other daemonbomb, thanks to the 2+ thing.

9 units per turn?

Are people STILL missing the fact if you use the formation to improve the casting, it makes every OTHER libby in the 12" bubble be not able to cast anything at all?

So just put 2 libbys with the caster and the rest elsewhere.

Or if you are running 3 lots of conclaves with 3 librarians in each, which is what they are discussing, each primary librarian could easily have all 4 summoning powers, leading to 12 units summoned a turn (albeit 3 of them are solo heralds).

I think it's been pointed out already the digital codex show Librarians can only cast from the Santic tree... So to summons is in poor form.

You only get 6 dice per 3 librarians (+D6 that you'll have to divide over the different conclaves). So getting all 4 spells off, probably not .

Also, if you take summoning, why bother argueing that you can assault?

How about something like this for 1k points (it's really tight but I think it's pretty ok)



The conclave goes with the 9 man assault squad. Rest is normal skyhammer tactics. Essentially the conclave now replaces 2x 2 grav + 3 marines and some random upgrades for increasing the combat capabilities of the assault squads.
I wouldn't assault with the conclave because I want the bodies for sacrifice and keeping the conclave alive. If you want to assault with them it's probably better to take different psychic powers.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I think it's been pointed out already the digital codex show Librarians can only cast from the Santic tree... So to summons is in poor form.

When did that ever stop players of TFG stamp?

Are people forgetting that psykers can only cast a number of spells equal to their mastery level? The wording says that the primary librarian KNOWS all the powers, it does not state that he can cast them all.

DirtyDeeds wrote:
Are people forgetting that psykers can only cast a number of spells equal to their mastery level? The wording says that the primary librarian KNOWS all the powers, it does not state that he can cast them all.

I can't find any rules support backing you up, there.

Most relevant text I can find is

Mastery Levels (digital edition, so no page numbers) wrote:"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his
Mastery Level."

But the only other text that might expand on that is

MANIFESTING PSYCHIC POWERS (again, digital edition, so no page numbers) wrote:"If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can
attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your
Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows"

So while it mentions that the number of psychic powers a Psyker can use depends on the Mastery level, it does not tell us HOW it depends on the Mastery Level. Then we have permission to keep manifesting powers as long as we have warp charges, which is at odds with the limitation you're talking about. No rules limit us to casting a # of powers up to our mastery level.

Rihgu wrote:


Most relevant text I can find is

Mastery Levels (digital edition, so no page numbers) wrote:"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his
Mastery Level."

But the only other text that might expand on that is

MANIFESTING PSYCHIC POWERS (again, digital edition, so no page numbers) wrote:"If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can
attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your
Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows"

So while it mentions that the number of psychic powers a Psyker can use depends on the Mastery level, it does not tell us HOW it depends on the Mastery Level. Then we have permission to keep manifesting powers as long as we have warp charges, which is at odds with the limitation you're talking about. No rules limit us to casting a # of powers up to our mastery level.

I think you need to read your post buddy...

The point of the last quote is that psykers that can still cast powers may utilize warp dice to manifest their powers if there are any remaining. It also allows the same psyker to manifest more than one power; however the number of powers one psyker may cast is limited by their mastery level, as you pointed out in the first quote. Time to read the rules as they are and not how you want them buddy.

DirtyDeeds wrote:

Rihgu wrote:


Most relevant text I can find is

Mastery Levels (digital edition, so no page numbers) wrote:"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his
Mastery Level."

But the only other text that might expand on that is

MANIFESTING PSYCHIC POWERS (again, digital edition, so no page numbers) wrote:"If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can
attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your
Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows"

So while it mentions that the number of psychic powers a Psyker can use depends on the Mastery level, it does not tell us HOW it depends on the Mastery Level. Then we have permission to keep manifesting powers as long as we have warp charges, which is at odds with the limitation you're talking about. No rules limit us to casting a # of powers up to our mastery level.

I think you need to read your post buddy...

The point of the last quote is that psykers that can still cast powers may utilize warp dice to manifest their powers if there are any remaining. It also allows the same psyker to manifest more than one power; however the number of powers one psyker may cast is limited by their mastery level, as you pointed out in the first quote. Time to read the rules as they are and not how you want them buddy.

No, the first quote literally says "the number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level." but gives no further instruction on HOW the Mastery Level affects the number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn. Is it X, where X is the Mastery Level? Is it X+1? X-1? 2X? 3X? X^2? All of those have the same rules support - that is to say, none. We are told that the number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level but nothing else.

Now, if we look at it, we can see HOW the Mastery Level affects how many psychic powers a Psyker can use each phase, in that the Mastery Level provides a number of Warp Charges which can be harnessed to manifest Psychic Powers. It's indirect, but it's there.

Perhaps it's

Time to read the rules as they are and not how you want them buddy.