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Did Gulliman kill Alpharius?
Did Gulliman kill Omegon?
Did Gulliman kill a standard Alpha Legion Legionnaire?
Did the fight even happen (as the Ultramarines have no record of the fight)
Did Alpharius/Omegon/Legionnaire actually kill Gulliman and be an imposter for the Lulz?

Guilliman discovered that Alpharius was the mother of his child.

Srs- Nobody knows. It's never been elaborated on and it's impossible to tell what the hell happened.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Guilliman discovered that Alpharius was the mother of his child.

Srs- Nobody knows. It's never been elaborated on and it's impossible to tell what the hell happened.

Knowing Alpharius, this is probably true

commander dante wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Guilliman discovered that Alpharius was the mother of his child.

Srs- Nobody knows. It's never been elaborated on and it's impossible to tell what the hell happened.

Knowing Alpharius, this is probably true

Knowing Alpharius is an impossibility, Or so the meme goes.

 Khonsu wrote:

commander dante wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Guilliman discovered that Alpharius was the mother of his child.

Srs- Nobody knows. It's never been elaborated on and it's impossible to tell what the hell happened.

Knowing Alpharius, this is probably true

Knowing Alpharius is an impossibility, Or so the meme goes.

Alpharius IS the Emperor and Horus AT THE SAME TIME
He can also Out-Genius Creed

The alpha legion made it known to guiliman that they were on a planet, big ol blue went down to deal with them, the alphas wanted to prove a point, that the way they fight was superior to the smurfs way of war, they succeeded almost completely.

War raged on with the ultras taking a beating left right and centre, guiliman cornered alpharius, they squared up and guiliman cut him down samurai style.

The pre dates the current alpha fluff by quite a margin, so no it couldn't possibly be omegas, he didn't exist at the time, the alphas behaved somewhat differently to what we know now, so in all likelihood it's best to ignore it until we get an update of some kind.

If you insist on considering it canon then it's more than likely that alpharius wasn't even present on the planet anymore or it was a proxy marine, alpharius wouldn't dual guiliman, he'd have his men gun him down like a little girly man....

What if Guilliman killed the Alpha Legion primarch, but thought nothing of it as he mistook the primarch for a regular marine?

That Index Astartes article is old - and it pre-dates the current Horus Heresy series by BL by quite a bit.

In it, Alpharius was almost as big as Horus, his Marines were all almost as tall as him, and therefore larger than almost all other marines, a corrupt Inquisitor was the best source of 'info' in the Legion and the Ultramarines themselves have no record of Guilliman actually killing Alpharius or of that battle even taking place.

And oh yeah, he didn't have a twin then either.

The implication seemed clear - it was all a big misinformation program by the Legion in order to thrown the authorities off the scent.

Alpharius was probably still alive and trolling the Imperium for reasons known only to himself.

Now?

Who knows!

But maybe Guilliman will actually kill Alpharius now, or maybe Omegon or maybe a stand in - or maybe it won't actually happen again?

We'll have to wait and see!

Obviously Alpharius was not killed. He somehow ended up getting sent back in time where he joined an online community that discusses things such as Warhammer and Warhammer 40K and was granted MOD status.

Could primarchs sense each other like when Horus found aphla\omegeron on one of his warships?

Or was that just a ability he had?

 Happyjew wrote:
Obviously Alpharius was not killed. He somehow ended up getting sent back in time where he joined an online community that discusses things such as Warhammer and Warhammer 40K and was granted MOD status.

See!
He is everywhere and nowhere!
(I believe he is trying to stop matt ward from creating Robot Gorillaman)

 Happyjew wrote:
Obviously Alpharius was not killed. He somehow ended up getting sent back in time where he joined an online community that discusses things such as Warhammer and Warhammer 40K and was granted MOD status.

No, that is actually Omegon. I am Alpharius.

Do you mean the fight where Gulliman thought he was fighting Alpharius, but he was actually fighting Gulliman who was trapped in an Alpharius costume while Alpharius was secretly taking over Gulliman's place as leader of Ultramar?

All records expunged on that one.

commander dante wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Obviously Alpharius was not killed. He somehow ended up getting sent back in time where he joined an online community that discusses things such as Warhammer and Warhammer 40K and was granted MOD status.

See!
He is everywhere and nowhere!
(I believe he is trying to stop matt ward from creating Robot Gorillaman)

But the Gorillaman already exists!

It's unlikely that Guilliman killed either of the Alpha Legion's Primarchs. "Alpharius" was likely a normal Alpha Legion Astartes, who was imitating his Primarch. Bear in mind, that Alpharius Omegon was the shortest Primarch and Alpha Legionnaires were noticeably taller than space marines in other legions, meaning that he was of very similar height to the normal marines. When we further look at the fact that Alpha Legionnaires all closely resembled each other anyway and even had surgical procedures done to make them look exactly alike and that normal marines were known to imitate Alpharius, it is very likely that both Primarchs are still at large.

I suspect it would be near impossible for a proxy marine to convincingly imitate a Primarch well enough to fool another Primarch.

In their size, speed, skill, intellect and presence Primarchs exceed humans, and even normal space marines, like humans exceed the capabilities of lemurs. It is almost impossible to imagine a Space Marine so powerful and skilled that he could convince a Primarch he was facing one of his peers.

Even given the most recent fluff that indicates Alpharius and Omegron were the smallest of the Primarchs, the power of their presence would be difficult to hide and harder to imitate in a proxy. It's hard to hide that much raw power.

That said, if any Legion had the audacity and was willing to commit the resources to pull off such a subterfuge it would be the Alpha Legion. Why they would bother to do such a thing is another matter entirely.

Besides, no one, least of all a Primarch, would expect that cutting off the head of a Hydra would weaken the beast. Even if Guilliman knew for a fact he had killed a Primarch he would not expect a Legion like the Alphas to be any less dangerous.

If the fight occurred at all you would expect that Guilliman and his Ultramarines would celebrate the fall of a very capable and dangerous traitor. It would be a matter of song and story to rally Imperials everywhere - an Arch-traitor brought to justice. They didn't, which suggests to me the fight never actually happened, or if it did, that it was a draw and not a win.

My two cents.

When it comes to writing the story for the "current" HH no doubt they will write it like an actual Primarch fights. But when Alpharius dies he will say "I am Alpharius" which will put a tiny drop of doubt into everyone's mind as to whether it was actually him or some normal Legionaire.

Which will be annoying.

 Alpharius wrote:

In it, Alpharius was almost as big as Horus, his Marines were all almost as tall as him, and therefore larger than almost all other marines, a corrupt Inquisitor was the best source of 'info' in the Legion the Ultramarines themselves have no record of Guilliman actually killing Alpharius or of that battle even taking place.

The part in bold is not necessarily correct. Or that is said is that the Ultramarines dispute at least some of what was said about the battle. Considering the report says that even after Alpharius died the Alpha Legion forced the Ultramarines to withdraw it would be unsurprising if they merely took offence at being portrayed in such a poor light.

 jhe90 wrote:
Could primarchs sense each other like when Horus found aphla\omegeron on one of his warships?

Or was that just a ability he had?

How did he sense that he was a primarch. Alpharious didnt know horus was his brother. He didnt know he had any (other) brothers.

I thought that Horus figured out that Alpha was a primarch when Alpha dodges all his shots and Horus though: "hmm, no one but one of my brothers could do that."

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

In it, Alpharius was almost as big as Horus, his Marines were all almost as tall as him, and therefore larger than almost all other marines, a corrupt Inquisitor was the best source of 'info' in the Legion the Ultramarines themselves have no record of Guilliman actually killing Alpharius or of that battle even taking place.

The part in bold is not necessarily correct. Or that is said is that the Ultramarines dispute at least some of what was said about the battle. Considering the report says that even after Alpharius died the Alpha Legion forced the Ultramarines to withdraw it would be unsurprising if they merely took offence at being portrayed in such a poor light.

Fair point! However you'd think that the Ultra's would be all about crowing over how Guilliman killed Alpharius - if it actually happened.

But then:

Shortly after the conclave, Inquisitor Girreux publicly accused Kravin of consorting with traitors and conspiring to organize cultist uprisings on the worlds of Kartha IV, V and Archos II in the Korren sub-sector. Girreux challenged Kravin to appear for trial and face the evidence against him, however Kravin's current whereabouts is unknown. Of course this development has called into question the reliability of all Inquisitor Kravin's research, and as he was the leading scholar on the Alpha Legion's history and current activities, much of what was known about them must now be considered a lie. If, as Girreux claims, Kravin has been compromised by the very traitors he sought to investigate, then everything he said must be considered misinformation and propaganda invented by the Alpha Legion.

 jhe90 wrote:
Could primarchs sense each other like when Horus found aphla\omegeron on one of his warships?

Or was that just a ability he had?

That's been retconned into "one of possible stories," but as mentioned, I think Horus' recognised Alpharius because only a primarch could do what he just had done.

Warboss Gorhack wrote:
I suspect it would be near impossible for a proxy marine to convincingly imitate a Primarch well enough to fool another Primarch.

In their size, speed, skill, intellect and presence Primarchs exceed humans, and even normal space marines, like humans exceed the capabilities of lemurs. It is almost impossible to imagine a Space Marine so powerful and skilled that he could convince a Primarch he was facing one of his peers.

I think it's mentioned in Legion that the Alpha Legion had already had normal Space Marines impersonate him while dealing with other primarchs. The only one to recognise Alpharius was John Grammaticus.

commander dante wrote:
Did Gulliman kill Alpharius?

Yes

Did Gulliman kill Alpharius?

No

Did Gulliman kill Omegon?

Yes

Did Gulliman kill Omegon?

No

Did Gulliman kill a standard Alpha Legion Legionnaire?

Yes

Did Gulliman kill a standard Alpha Legion Legionnaire?

No

Did the fight even happen (as the Ultramarines have no record of the fight)

Yes

Did the fight even happen (as the Ultramarines have no record of the fight)

No

Did Alpharius/Omegon/Legionnaire actually kill Gulliman and be an imposter for the Lulz?

No

Did Alpharius/Omegon/Legionnaire actually kill Gulliman and be an imposter for the Lulz?

Yes

Warboss Gorhack wrote:
I suspect it would be near impossible for a proxy marine to convincingly imitate a Primarch well enough to fool another Primarch.

In their size, speed, skill, intellect and presence Primarchs exceed humans, and even normal space marines, like humans exceed the capabilities of lemurs. It is almost impossible to imagine a Space Marine so powerful and skilled that he could convince a Primarch he was facing one of his peers.

Even given the most recent fluff that indicates Alpharius and Omegron were the smallest of the Primarchs, the power of their presence would be difficult to hide and harder to imitate in a proxy. It's hard to hide that much raw power.

That said, if any Legion had the audacity and was willing to commit the resources to pull off such a subterfuge it would be the Alpha Legion. Why they would bother to do such a thing is another matter entirely.

Besides, no one, least of all a Primarch, would expect that cutting off the head of a Hydra would weaken the beast. Even if Guilliman knew for a fact he had killed a Primarch he would not expect a Legion like the Alphas to be any less dangerous.

If the fight occurred at all you would expect that Guilliman and his Ultramarines would celebrate the fall of a very capable and dangerous traitor. It would be a matter of song and story to rally Imperials everywhere - an Arch-traitor brought to justice. They didn't, which suggests to me the fight never actually happened, or if it did, that it was a draw and not a win.

My two cents.

Rowboat Girlyman was nearly killed by a handful of Alpha Legionaires. It's possible that he was so incompetent that he confused a Marine for a Primarch. Gods know, Girlyman was proud enough to believe anything awesome about himself. This is the guy who started creating his own Empire while Horus besieging Terra.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Warboss Gorhack wrote:
I suspect it would be near impossible for a proxy marine to convincingly imitate a Primarch well enough to fool another Primarch.

In their size, speed, skill, intellect and presence Primarchs exceed humans, and even normal space marines, like humans exceed the capabilities of lemurs. It is almost impossible to imagine a Space Marine so powerful and skilled that he could convince a Primarch he was facing one of his peers.

Even given the most recent fluff that indicates Alpharius and Omegron were the smallest of the Primarchs, the power of their presence would be difficult to hide and harder to imitate in a proxy. It's hard to hide that much raw power.

That said, if any Legion had the audacity and was willing to commit the resources to pull off such a subterfuge it would be the Alpha Legion. Why they would bother to do such a thing is another matter entirely.

Besides, no one, least of all a Primarch, would expect that cutting off the head of a Hydra would weaken the beast. Even if Guilliman knew for a fact he had killed a Primarch he would not expect a Legion like the Alphas to be any less dangerous.

If the fight occurred at all you would expect that Guilliman and his Ultramarines would celebrate the fall of a very capable and dangerous traitor. It would be a matter of song and story to rally Imperials everywhere - an Arch-traitor brought to justice. They didn't, which suggests to me the fight never actually happened, or if it did, that it was a draw and not a win.

My two cents.

Rowboat Girlyman was nearly killed by a handful of Alpha Legionaires. It's possible that he was so incompetent that he confused a Marine for a Primarch. Gods know, Girlyman was proud enough to believe anything awesome about himself. This is the guy who started creating his own Empire while Horus besieging Terra.

Wrong on so many levels. He wasn't at all big headed. From the novels he is just very practical and straightforward, calculating this and that. He knows he can do X but he still let's others do their jobs instead of micromanagement. He, during Horus' siege, was also purposefully engaged by Lorgar and Angron and held back by ferocious Warp Storms conjured by Lorgar specifically to stop him getting to Terra.


The Alpha Legion Primarchs were very good at hiding within their own ranks. And considering the situation, not so hard. Guilliman broke protocol to launch a direct attack and was literally hit and run. Someone dressed as Alpharius and taking his role would be easy to mistake, especially if everyone in the room genuinely believed he was Alpharius. Guilliman didn't have time to even confirm the kill. it could have been Alpharius but the wound just wasn't fatal.

Alpharius killed Guilliman and temporarily usurped his identity. That's why the body was burned after the duel, to prevent actual identification.

The "body" in stasis is made out of paper mache and greenstuff. Tell Omegron it's healing sometime. He'll get a smile out of that.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Warboss Gorhack wrote:
I suspect it would be near impossible for a proxy marine to convincingly imitate a Primarch well enough to fool another Primarch.

In their size, speed, skill, intellect and presence Primarchs exceed humans, and even normal space marines, like humans exceed the capabilities of lemurs. It is almost impossible to imagine a Space Marine so powerful and skilled that he could convince a Primarch he was facing one of his peers.

Even given the most recent fluff that indicates Alpharius and Omegron were the smallest of the Primarchs, the power of their presence would be difficult to hide and harder to imitate in a proxy. It's hard to hide that much raw power.

That said, if any Legion had the audacity and was willing to commit the resources to pull off such a subterfuge it would be the Alpha Legion. Why they would bother to do such a thing is another matter entirely.

Besides, no one, least of all a Primarch, would expect that cutting off the head of a Hydra would weaken the beast. Even if Guilliman knew for a fact he had killed a Primarch he would not expect a Legion like the Alphas to be any less dangerous.

If the fight occurred at all you would expect that Guilliman and his Ultramarines would celebrate the fall of a very capable and dangerous traitor. It would be a matter of song and story to rally Imperials everywhere - an Arch-traitor brought to justice. They didn't, which suggests to me the fight never actually happened, or if it did, that it was a draw and not a win.

My two cents.

Rowboat Girlyman was nearly killed by a handful of Alpha Legionaires. It's possible that he was so incompetent that he confused a Marine for a Primarch. Gods know, Girlyman was proud enough to believe anything awesome about himself. This is the guy who started creating his own Empire while Horus besieging Terra.

you of course could easily take down a squad of armed men, whom are actually gunning for you (and thus presumably have been breifed on your unique psylogy) when you are un armed and unarmed in the apparent safety of your home.

you as a matter of COURSE expect every friend returning from a long trip away from home as being a spy and assasin out to get you.

BrianDavion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Warboss Gorhack wrote:
I suspect it would be near impossible for a proxy marine to convincingly imitate a Primarch well enough to fool another Primarch.

In their size, speed, skill, intellect and presence Primarchs exceed humans, and even normal space marines, like humans exceed the capabilities of lemurs. It is almost impossible to imagine a Space Marine so powerful and skilled that he could convince a Primarch he was facing one of his peers.

Even given the most recent fluff that indicates Alpharius and Omegron were the smallest of the Primarchs, the power of their presence would be difficult to hide and harder to imitate in a proxy. It's hard to hide that much raw power.

That said, if any Legion had the audacity and was willing to commit the resources to pull off such a subterfuge it would be the Alpha Legion. Why they would bother to do such a thing is another matter entirely.

Besides, no one, least of all a Primarch, would expect that cutting off the head of a Hydra would weaken the beast. Even if Guilliman knew for a fact he had killed a Primarch he would not expect a Legion like the Alphas to be any less dangerous.

If the fight occurred at all you would expect that Guilliman and his Ultramarines would celebrate the fall of a very capable and dangerous traitor. It would be a matter of song and story to rally Imperials everywhere - an Arch-traitor brought to justice. They didn't, which suggests to me the fight never actually happened, or if it did, that it was a draw and not a win.

My two cents.

Rowboat Girlyman was nearly killed by a handful of Alpha Legionaires. It's possible that he was so incompetent that he confused a Marine for a Primarch. Gods know, Girlyman was proud enough to believe anything awesome about himself. This is the guy who started creating his own Empire while Horus besieging Terra.

you of course could easily take down a squad of armed men, whom are actually gunning for you (and thus presumably have been breifed on your unique psylogy) when you are un armed and unarmed in the apparent safety of your home.

you as a matter of COURSE expect every friend returning from a long trip away from home as being a spy and assasin out to get you.

If half my brothers, most notably the two Legions best at terrorist campaigns, had turned traitor, yeah, I'd suspect lots of assassins would be coming at me.

The primarchs all knew how the Alpha Legion and Night Lords roll.


... and if I were as much of a weakling as Girlyman, I'd at least have a couple of guards stationed in my room on my side of the doorway.

Heck, I might just sleep in the main barracks with all the other Marines.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Warboss Gorhack wrote:
I suspect it would be near impossible for a proxy marine to convincingly imitate a Primarch well enough to fool another Primarch.

In their size, speed, skill, intellect and presence Primarchs exceed humans, and even normal space marines, like humans exceed the capabilities of lemurs. It is almost impossible to imagine a Space Marine so powerful and skilled that he could convince a Primarch he was facing one of his peers.

Even given the most recent fluff that indicates Alpharius and Omegron were the smallest of the Primarchs, the power of their presence would be difficult to hide and harder to imitate in a proxy. It's hard to hide that much raw power.

That said, if any Legion had the audacity and was willing to commit the resources to pull off such a subterfuge it would be the Alpha Legion. Why they would bother to do such a thing is another matter entirely.

Besides, no one, least of all a Primarch, would expect that cutting off the head of a Hydra would weaken the beast. Even if Guilliman knew for a fact he had killed a Primarch he would not expect a Legion like the Alphas to be any less dangerous.

If the fight occurred at all you would expect that Guilliman and his Ultramarines would celebrate the fall of a very capable and dangerous traitor. It would be a matter of song and story to rally Imperials everywhere - an Arch-traitor brought to justice. They didn't, which suggests to me the fight never actually happened, or if it did, that it was a draw and not a win.

My two cents.

Rowboat Girlyman was nearly killed by a handful of Alpha Legionaires. It's possible that he was so incompetent that he confused a Marine for a Primarch. Gods know, Girlyman was proud enough to believe anything awesome about himself. This is the guy who started creating his own Empire while Horus besieging Terra.

you of course could easily take down a squad of armed men, whom are actually gunning for you (and thus presumably have been breifed on your unique psylogy) when you are un armed and unarmed in the apparent safety of your home.

you as a matter of COURSE expect every friend returning from a long trip away from home as being a spy and assasin out to get you.

If half my brothers, most notably the two Legions best at terrorist campaigns, had turned traitor, yeah, I'd suspect lots of assassins would be coming at me.

The primarchs all knew how the Alpha Legion and Night Lords roll.


... and if I were as much of a weakling as Girlyman, I'd at least have a couple of guards stationed in my room on my side of the doorway.

Heck, I might just sleep in the main barracks with all the other Marines.

And what exactly would 2 guards do? Give the Alpha Legion someone to impersonate that would be close to him? Or cost the lives of two very skilled and trusted Astartes as they assassinate them too, as they can easily kill a Primarch if you are so to believe.

What good would sleeping in the barracks do? If they can get to you i your private quarters without a Legion of Astartes, servitors and Mechanicus personnel noticing they can get to you in the barracks. All it does is show worry, and incites psychological worry from the troops. Meaning it plays exactly into Alpha Legion hands.

And I don't know what you are saying about the Night Lords? They weren't assassins, they were butchers. Shock assault and brutal slaughter. Kind of like the World Eaters but much more controlled, focused and personal.