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2015/06/23 22:48:41
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
Grey Templar wrote: Making guns harder to get would only infringe on the constitutional rights of law abiding citizens, it doesn't reduce criminals ease of access to guns..
Of course it does. Reduce the number of people who have guns,and you reduce the number of guns that the criminals can steal.
You are technically correct.
This problem is better stated that (1) reducing the number of guns available does not have any demonstrable impact on criminals' ability to acquire weapons, and (2) reducing the availability of guns to law abiding citizens does not produce the desired effect of reducing crime.
But it does (3) reduce the number of idiots shooting themselves accidentally.
Then the first step is to take firearms away from cops. Despite "all the training," and being the only ones "professional enough" to handle these weapons, they just can't seem to keep their filthy donutpickers off the triggers.
Hordini wrote: Exactly. And what is the point of penalizing law-abiding citizens, when it's the criminals who are they problem?
It's less about 'penalising' anyone, and more about the fact that if guns aren't so prevalent amongst the criminals, there's less need for the law-abiding citizens to have them either.
I find it a little mind-boggling that, in this day and age, anyone in a non-third-world country should feel they need a firearm to protect themselves. That's a pretty severe failing on the part of the society that person lives in.
If people abide by the law, then why do you care at all whether or not they own firearms? Does it make you feel uncomfortable?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/23 22:50:43
If people abide by the law, then why do you care at all whether or not they own firearms? Does it make you feel uncomfortable?
Well, yes. Insofar as it creates a culture whereby firearms are accepted as commonplace, and where people willfully ignore all of the reasons that having these things out amongst the general public is a bad idea because their 'right' to own them trumps all other considerations, absolutely that makes me uncomfortable.
To be more specific, the idea that my neighbour might have a firearm in his house doesn't make me uncomfortable. The idea of living somewhere where most of my neighbours have firearms in their houses and accept that as a trivial thing, leading to a massive number of accidental shootings, firearm related violence, and people being shot by police due to them having to work under the assumption that every car they pull over, every 12-year-old-boy on the street, and every domestic incident they attend might involve a firearm?
Damn straight, that makes me uncomfortable.
2015/06/23 23:07:43
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
insaniak wrote: I find it a little mind-boggling that, in this day and age, anyone in a non-third-world country should feel they need a firearm to protect themselves. That's a pretty severe failing on the part of the society that person lives in.
How about the woman and her kids who escaped an abusive ex who has threatened to kill them? Watch the video and ask what might have happened if she was unable to defend herself
Obviously NSFW
insaniak wrote: And that's great. But at what point do you stop and say 'Holy crap... look at all of the problems that are caused by allowing that particular freedom...'
What problems are those?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/23 23:08:05
2015/06/23 23:09:36
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
If people abide by the law, then why do you care at all whether or not they own firearms? Does it make you feel uncomfortable?
Well, yes. Insofar as it creates a culture whereby firearms are accepted as commonplace, and where people willfully ignore all of the reasons that having these things out amongst the general public is a bad idea because their 'right' to own them trumps all other considerations, absolutely that makes me uncomfortable.
To be more specific, the idea that my neighbour might have a firearm in his house doesn't make me uncomfortable. The idea of living somewhere where most of my neighbours have firearms in their houses and accept that as a trivial thing, leading to a massive number of accidental shootings, firearm related violence, and people being shot by police due to them having to work under the assumption that every car they pull over, every 12-year-old-boy on the street, and every domestic incident they attend might involve a firearm?
Damn straight, that makes me uncomfortable.
Accidental shootings like...cops shooting the wrong person? OK...train the cops better and stop hiring idiots (many departments have a 2.0 high school GPA minimum).
Accidental shootings like...people shooting themselves by accident? I don't know the numbers on this, but I extend the offer to you to prove that this occurs in "massive" numbers, since you claim that it does.
Firearm related violence? I'm assuming you mean, "of the criminal variety," so we aren't talking "law abiding citizens" anymore. Guns allow people like me to protect myself and others from people who commit firearm related violent crime.
I respect your right to feel uncomfortable about it, but ['merica]here in America[/'merica] we don't have the right to restrict the rights of others based on our comfort level. Some people aren't comfortable with Blacks and Whites marrying...should we make that illegal too?
Dreadclaw69 wrote: How about the woman and her kids who escaped an abusive ex who has threatened to kill them? Watch the video and ask what might have happened if she was unable to defend herself
How about an elderly couple that live in a crime ridden neighbourhood and cannot afford to move?
How about the farmer that lives in an area where the average police response is over 45 minutes?
insaniak wrote:That's a pretty severe failing on the part of the society that person lives in.
Your examples just highlight my point. If people feel that they need a firearm to protect themselves, then something is wrong with the system.
insaniak wrote: And that's great. But at what point do you stop and say 'Holy crap... look at all of the problems that are caused by allowing that particular freedom...'
What problems are those?
Well, for starters, I recently heard about a situation where a guy with a towel wrapped around his arm was shot in the head by police who thought he had a gun...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/23 23:14:28
2015/06/23 23:23:48
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
insaniak wrote: I find it a little mind-boggling that, in this day and age, anyone in a non-third-world country should feel they need a firearm to protect themselves. That's a pretty severe failing on the part of the society that person lives in.
How about the woman and her kids who escaped an abusive ex who has threatened to kill them? Watch the video and ask what might have happened if she was unable to defend herself
How about the woman shot to death by her own child who was rummaging through her handbag?
For every instance in which a gun has saved a life I think we will all agree that there will be one in which it has taken one, unnecessarily.
The US by this point has too many guns for getting rid of them to be feasible. That does not mean that there are not problems which come with having that many guns around, however, just that the solution will be a lot harder to come to.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/23 23:27:07
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2015/06/23 23:32:49
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
insaniak wrote: To be more specific, the idea that my neighbour might have a firearm in his house doesn't make me uncomfortable. The idea of living somewhere where most of my neighbours have firearms in their houses and accept that as a trivial thing, leading to a massive number of accidental shootings, firearm related violence, and people being shot by police due to them having to work under the assumption that every car they pull over, every 12-year-old-boy on the street, and every domestic incident they attend might involve a firearm?
Fact: Though the number of firearms owned by private citizens has been increasing steadily since 1970, the overall rate of homicides and suicides has not risen. 1 As the chart shows, there is no correlation between the availability of firearms and the rates of homicide and suicide in America.
Fact: Internationally speaking “There’s no clear relationship between more guns and higher levels of violence.” 2
Fact: “A detailed study of the major surveys completed in the past 20 years or more provides no evidence of any relationship between the total number of legally held firearms in society and the rate of armed crime. Nor is there a relationship between the severity of controls imposed in various countries or the mass of bureaucracy involved with many control systems with the apparent ease of access to firearms by criminals and terrorists.” 3
Fact: Handgun ownership among groups normally associated with higher violent crime (young males, blacks, low income, inner city, etc.) is at or below national averages. 4
Fact: Among inmates who used a firearm in the commission of a crime, the most significant correlations occurred when the inmates’ parents abused drugs (27.5%) and when inmates had friends engaged in illegal activities (32.5% for robberies, 24.3% for drug trafficking).” 5
Fact: Five out of six gun-possessing felons obtained handguns from the secondary market and by theft, and “[the] criminal handgun market is overwhelmingly dominated by informal transactions and theft as mechanisms of supply.” 6
Fact: The majority of handguns in the possession of criminals are stolen, and not necessarily by the criminals in question. 7 In fact, over 100,000 firearms are stolen in burglaries every year, and most of them likely enter the criminal market (i.e., are sold or traded to criminals). 8
Homicides in England and Wales against their 1968 gun control movement
click to enlarge
Fact: In 1968, the U.K. passed laws that reduced the number of licensed firearm owners, and thus reduced firearm availability. U.K. homicide rates have steadily risen since then. 9 Ironically, firearm use in crimes has doubled in the decade after the U.K. banned handguns. 10
Fact: Most violent crime is caused by a small minority of repeat offenders. One California study found that 3.8% of a group of males born in 1956 were responsible for 55.5% of all serious felonies. 11 75-80% of murder arrestees have prior arrests for a violent (including non-fatal) felony or burglary. On average they have about four felony arrests and one felony conviction.
Fact: Half of all murders are committed by people on “conditional release” (i.e., parole or probation). 12 81% of all homicide defendants had an arrest record; 67% had a felony arrest record; 70% had a conviction record; and 54% had a felony conviction. 13
Fact: Per capita firearm ownership rates have risen steadily since 1959 while crime rates have gone up and down depending on economics, drug trafficking innovations, and “get tough” legislation. 14
Thoughts: Criminals are not motivated by guns. They are motivated by opportunity. Attempts to reduce public access to firearms provide criminals more points of opportunity. It is little wonder that high-crime cities also tend to be those with the most restrictive gun control laws – which criminals tend to ignore.
As far as more guns = more suicide
2015/06/23 23:33:13
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
Dreadclaw69 wrote: How about the woman and her kids who escaped an abusive ex who has threatened to kill them? Watch the video and ask what might have happened if she was unable to defend herself
How about an elderly couple that live in a crime ridden neighbourhood and cannot afford to move?
How about the farmer that lives in an area where the average police response is over 45 minutes?
insaniak wrote:That's a pretty severe failing on the part of the society that person lives in.
Your examples just highlight my point. If people feel that they need a firearm to protect themselves, then something is wrong with the system.
So countries without guns do not experience violent or abusive exes? Old people can freely move without the financial means to do so? Farmers can live far away from law enforcement without issue?
insaniak wrote: And that's great. But at what point do you stop and say 'Holy crap... look at all of the problems that are caused by allowing that particular freedom...'
What problems are those?
Well, for starters, I recently heard about a situation where a guy with a towel wrapped around his arm was shot in the head by police who thought he had a gun...
I heard about that too. I didn't hear how the Second Amendment was responsible for the reaction of the officers though.
2015/06/23 23:36:48
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
Hordini wrote: Exactly. And what is the point of penalizing law-abiding citizens, when it's the criminals who are they problem?
It's less about 'penalising' anyone, and more about the fact that if guns aren't so prevalent amongst the criminals, there's less need for the law-abiding citizens to have them either.
I find it a little mind-boggling that, in this day and age, anyone in a non-third-world country should feel they need a firearm to protect themselves. That's a pretty severe failing on the part of the society that person lives in.
I find it mind-boggling that someone would realistically expect the government to be solely responsible for their personal security, and consider the impossibility of that expectation to be a severe failing on the part of society.
There are also reasons to own firearms other than for protection from criminals.
It's funny how other countries do pretty damn okay with their personal security without needing to own guns to do so.
It's funny how other countries, particularly in Europe, have more urban areas and much greater population density than the US. It's funny how many European countries have much more homogeneous populations than the US. It's funny how the US has an open southern border with a country that features large swathes controlled by drug cartels.
In some parts of the US police response time can be 30 minutes or more, so you'll have to excuse some of us for being reluctant to give up the responsibility for our own security. If you don't want to take responsibility for your own security, you're free to refrain from doing so.
Compared to Russia, the US is densely populated and a police response time of 30 minutes is incredibly fast (it can be days or even weeks in the more remote parts of Russia). The Russian population is also very far from homogenous, and the southern border makes Mexico look tame. Yet Russia has one of the lowest rates of weapon possession in the world yet no one suffers for it. Why in Heaven's Name would you need a gun to defend yourself in a rural area? What is there so dangerous about the American countryside that you need guns to survive?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/23 23:38:35
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2015/06/23 23:37:03
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
A Town Called Malus wrote: How about the woman shot to death by her own child who was rummaging through her handbag?
A tragic loss of life caused by her own negligence and lack of control of both her firearm and her child
A Town Called Malus wrote: For every instance in which a gun has saved a life I think we will all agree that there will be one in which it has taken one, unnecessarily.
We do not agree because statistically that is not correct. Firearms have saved more lives
2015/06/23 23:38:43
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
Compared to Russia, the US is densely populated and a police response time of 30 minutes is incredibly fast (it can be days or even weeks in the more remote parts of Russia). The Russian population is also very far from homogenous, and the southern border makes Mexico look tame. Yet Russia has one of the lowest rates of weapon possession in the world yet no one suffers for it.
Why in Heaven's Name would you need a gun to defend yourself in a rural area? If anything, you'd have more need for it in a city (because that is where the criminals are)
Berlin Township police Chief Leonard Check said at his department, it's the latter when it comes to approving firearms permits and involves multiple organizations coordinating to give the green light.
Scott Bach, the executive director of the Sussex County-headquartered Association of New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Clubs, couldn't stress the former time frame enough.
"Permitting authorities are notorious for violating state-mandated time frames," said Bach, citing state criminal code that requires an application be granted within 30 days.
Either way, when Carol Bowne was fatally stabbed by an ex-boyfriend late Wednesday night just outside her Berlin home, she had been waiting since mid April.
Although the 39-year-old longtime hair stylist had filed a restraining order against suspect Michael Eitel, 45, the man allegedly attacked her shortly after 10 p.m. upon Bowne's arrival at her Patton Avenue home.
The Camden County Prosecutor's Office, who is aiding in the search for the suspect who remains at large, did not plan to release additional information pertaining to the case on Friday.
According to reports, Bowne submitted her application for a gun license on April 21 and went to see where the process stood two days before her death. Reports also indicate the police department had not yet received the results of her fingerprinting.
Check said Friday that he did not wish to discuss circumstances surrounding Bowne's application.
For first-time gun ownership applicants in New Jersey, a person must go to their local police station, take home forms to be filled out, submit to background investigations regarding their criminal history and mental health, be fingerprinted, pay pertaining fees and submit contact information for references. Police will then conduct a 14-point investigation and give an approval within 30 days.
At least that's how it's supposed to work, Bach said.
"This woman's life was tragically taken because of New Jersey gun laws," said Bach.
The bottom line is if you have access to a firearm, at least you have a fighting chance.
Check said fingerprinting is done by an outside party, not just at his department, but for anyone in New Jersey seeking a license for occupations such as being a bus driver. Berlin police also mail out reference check forms with a cover letter and set of questions pertaining to the applicant.
What if the recipient waits a week before filling out the form and mailing it back, Check posed.
In all, the 2- to 3-month timeline may be a little shorter, but usually longer, the chief said, noting that he was not aware of any 30-day constraint for his department to sign off on an application when asked about the state statute.
"Law enforcement agencies can't let these applications languish," said Bach, adding that "moving pieces" in the process like the ones Check noted shouldn't be to blame. "It really should be instant."
According to Bach, the "vast majority" of states presume that if you can pass a criminal and mental background check conducted within minutes at the point of sale at a gun shop, then you can own one.
That check is done through the National Crime Information Center (NCIC) database overseen by the FBI. Potential customers also fill out federal paperwork at the store prior to any purchase.
Touching on previous cases where people faced jail time for improper transportation of weapons, Bach also went on to say that the only places in New Jersey a legal gun owner can have their weapon with them is at the gun store, a target range or while in transit to either of those two destinations.
Asked if Bowne had brandished a weapon during her fatal encounter, Bach said New Jersey residents can also have the weapon with them so long as they are on property owned, used or possessed.
"The bottom line is if you have access to a firearm, at least you have a fighting chance," Bach said.
2015/06/23 23:49:39
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
Compared to Russia, the US is densely populated and a police response time of 30 minutes is incredibly fast (it can be days or even weeks in the more remote parts of Russia). The Russian population is also very far from homogenous, and the southern border makes Mexico look tame. Yet Russia has one of the lowest rates of weapon possession in the world yet no one suffers for it.
Why in Heaven's Name would you need a gun to defend yourself in a rural area? If anything, you'd have more need for it in a city (because that is where the criminals are)
What about your crime rates?
About the same as in the US from what I gather. It used to be much worse, but crime has been decreasing a lot since Putin started cracking down on it.
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2015/06/24 00:06:43
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
Deaths by accident involving firearms has been on the decline here for a long time...ETC
The problem with statistics like that is that they only show a part of the picture. You seem to be taking 'more people have guns, gun-related deaths are down' as a sign that gun-related deaths are down as a result of more people having guns.
Of course, if ou extrapolate that further, you come to the conclusion that if nobody had guns, then gun-related deaths would skyrocket. Which sort of leads to the inescapable conclusion that there is something else actually going on there that is influencing those numbers, and that it's not as simple as counting how many people have guns.
Dreadclaw69 wrote: So countries without guns do not experience violent or abusive exes? Old people can freely move without the financial means to do so? Farmers can live far away from law enforcement without issue?
I don't recall claiming that any of those issues were solely confined to the US. Although I did live in a rural area here for some time and, contrary to certain movie depictions of rural Australia, very rarely had to defend myself from roving packs of marauders.
People winding up in a life-threatening situation like that represent a failure of any social system in which they occur, IMO. Adding guns into the mix doesn't improve the situation.
NuggzTheNinja wrote: Somebody feeling uncomfortable about something isn't automatically a good reason for someone else not to have something.
Again, some people are uncomfortable about mixed-race marriages. By your standard, those should be illegal too.
I never said that my being uncomfortable with the culture created by free access to firearms was a reason for firearms to not be allowed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/24 00:14:53
2015/06/24 00:15:38
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
Deaths by accident involving firearms has been on the decline here for a long time...ETC
The problem with statistics like that is that they only show a part of the picture. You seem to be taking 'more people have guns, gun-related deaths are down' as a sign that gun-related deaths are down as a result of more people having guns.
Of course, if ou extrapolate that further, you come to the conclusion that if nobody had guns, then gun-related deaths would skyrocket. Which sort of leads to the inescapable conclusion that there is something else actually going on there that is influencing those numbers, and that it's not as simple as counting how many people have guns.
Or you could extrapolate it to mean that the amount of guns in the hands of citizens isn't directly related to the amount of gun deaths. Maybe if we wait a few more years the problem will fix itself? With the exception of a few high profile cases paraded in the media, the situation seems to be improving pretty well on its own.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/24 00:16:07
insaniak wrote: The problem with statistics like that is that they only show a part of the picture. You seem to be taking 'more people have guns, gun-related deaths are down' as a sign that gun-related deaths are down as a result of more people having guns.
Of course, if ou extrapolate that further, you come to the conclusion that if nobody had guns, then gun-related deaths would skyrocket. Which sort of leads to the inescapable conclusion that there is something else actually going on there that is influencing those numbers, and that it's not as simple as counting how many people have guns.
I'm relying on the evidence I have at hand. If you have something that shows the opposite I'd be interested in seeing it. Until then the evidence does not agree with your position.
insaniak wrote: I don't recall claiming that any of those issues were solely confined to the US. Although I did live in a rural area here for some time and, contrary to certain movie depictions of rural Australia, very rarely had to defend myself from roving packs of marauders
So what society is absent these issues?
insaniak wrote: People winding up in a life-threatening situation like that represent a failure of any social system in which they occur, IMO. Adding guns into the mix doesn't improve the situation.
Unless you want to ignore the lives saved by defensive gun uses, such as the ones noted previously.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/24 00:22:15
2015/06/24 00:25:52
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
If people abide by the law, then why do you care at all whether or not they own firearms? Does it make you feel uncomfortable?
Well, yes. Insofar as it creates a culture whereby firearms are accepted as commonplace, and where people willfully ignore all of the reasons that having these things out amongst the general public is a bad idea because their 'right' to own them trumps all other considerations, absolutely that makes me uncomfortable.
To be more specific, the idea that my neighbour might have a firearm in his house doesn't make me uncomfortable. The idea of living somewhere where most of my neighbours have firearms in their houses and accept that as a trivial thing, leading to a massive number of accidental shootings, firearm related violence, and people being shot by police due to them having to work under the assumption that every car they pull over, every 12-year-old-boy on the street, and every domestic incident they attend might involve a firearm?
Damn straight, that makes me uncomfortable.
Accidental shootings like...cops shooting the wrong person? OK...train the cops better and stop hiring idiots (many departments have a 2.0 high school GPA minimum).
Accidental shootings like...people shooting themselves by accident? I don't know the numbers on this, but I extend the offer to you to prove that this occurs in "massive" numbers, since you claim that it does.
Firearm related violence? I'm assuming you mean, "of the criminal variety," so we aren't talking "law abiding citizens" anymore. Guns allow people like me to protect myself and others from people who commit firearm related violent crime.
I respect your right to feel uncomfortable about it, but ['merica]here in America[/'merica] we don't have the right to restrict the rights of others based on our comfort level. Some people aren't comfortable with Blacks and Whites marrying...should we make that illegal too?
Are you kidding? We restrict people's rights based on comfort level all the freakin' time! It took massive social unrest to decriminalize mixed-race marriages and extend basic civil rights to people freed from slavery a century prior. We're seeing the same thing going on with abortion rights, gay rights, same-sex marriage and a host of other issues. We *absolutely* legislate on people's comfort levels!
... which posits that 851 people died due to accidental discharge of firearms in 2011 (the year of the report). Those numbers do not include suicides, assaults or other actions of a similar nature. Simply accidental shootings. A further 222 people died due to firearm discharge under "undetermined intent".
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2015/06/24 00:34:52
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
And really, that's just scratching the surface, because in the SE part of the country, you got gators and crocodiles, and some A-holes let their "pet" pythons and boas escape and now they are taking over an ecosystem out there, Across much of the "Southern" part, or rocky parts of the country, you got about 50 different types of rattle snakes.
I think we rate right up there with Australia for wildlife that wants to kill you. We're still behind though, because a bunch of our plants are good, and don't want to kill us.
2015/06/24 00:37:21
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
Iron_Captain wrote: What is there so dangerous about the American countryside that you need guns to survive?
You're kidding, right?
Well, no. Unless the American countryside is actually plagued by roving bands of marauders and highwaymen.
Well, it varies depending on where in the US you live, but besides the potential of a criminal encounter with long police response time, in rural areas you might also have to deal with coyotes, wolves, black bears, brown bears, or mountain lions. Not to mention large numbers of smaller pests who are less dangerous (to humans) but can be very dangerous to pets and poultry livestock, namely raccoons, possums, and foxes. Not to mention all the damage to crops (and cars, and people) that animals like deer can cause (and the significant supplement to your diet that hunting animals like deer can bring).
... which posits that 851 people died due to accidental discharge of firearms in 2011 (the year of the report). Those numbers do not include suicides, assaults or other actions of a similar nature. Simply accidental shootings. A further 222 people died due to firearm discharge under "undetermined intent".
851 deaths out of 117,181,000 households with firearms. That is statistically insignificant, although tragic.
You may also note from above that accidental deaths from firearms has been trending down since 1981.
And Everytown is not an entirely credible source, with a well known history of bias.
2015/06/24 00:41:33
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
... which posits that 851 people died due to accidental discharge of firearms in 2011 (the year of the report). Those numbers do not include suicides, assaults or other actions of a similar nature. Simply accidental shootings. A further 222 people died due to firearm discharge under "undetermined intent".
851 deaths out of 117,181,000 households with firearms. That is statistically insignificant, although tragic.
You may also note from above that accidental deaths from firearms has been trending down since 1981.
And Everytown is not an entirely credible source, with a well known history of bias.
They are also, very likely, 851 deaths that would have been 100% preventable if proper gun safety had been followed.
And really, that's just scratching the surface, because in the SE part of the country, you got gators and crocodiles, and some A-holes let their "pet" pythons and boas escape and now they are taking over an ecosystem out there, Across much of the "Southern" part, or rocky parts of the country, you got about 50 different types of rattle snakes.
I think we rate right up there with Australia for wildlife that wants to kill you. We're still behind though, because a bunch of our plants are good, and don't want to kill us.
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2015/06/24 00:48:24
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
... which posits that 851 people died due to accidental discharge of firearms in 2011 (the year of the report). Those numbers do not include suicides, assaults or other actions of a similar nature. Simply accidental shootings. A further 222 people died due to firearm discharge under "undetermined intent".
851 deaths out of 117,181,000 households with firearms. That is statistically insignificant, although tragic.
You may also note from above that accidental deaths from firearms has been trending down since 1981.
And Everytown is not an entirely credible source, with a well known history of bias.
They are also, very likely, 851 deaths that would have been 100% preventable if proper gun safety had been followed.
Or a better investment in mental health services - which would also held prevent mass shootings
2015/06/24 00:49:30
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
Well, it varies depending on where in the US you live, but besides the potential of a criminal encounter with long police response time, in rural areas you might also have to deal with coyotes, wolves, black bears, brown bears, or mountain lions. Not to mention large numbers of smaller pests who are less dangerous (to humans) but can be very dangerous to pets and poultry livestock, namely raccoons, possums, and foxes. Not to mention all the damage to crops (and cars, and people) that animals like deer can cause (and the significant supplement to your diet that hunting animals like deer can bring).
To be clear, the original claim was that farmers needed guns to protect themselves from criminals, due to being so far from law enforcement. I fully understand that bears and suchlike are a potential problem, but from my understanding it's not usually of the 'violent ex' or 'give me your wallet' kind.
And I would imagine that bear and coyotes are less of a threat in, say, Los Angeles.
Down here, farmers have specific exemptions to the normal firearms laws, allowing them to have firearms with appropriate licencing to do what they need to do.
2015/06/24 00:50:21
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
... which posits that 851 people died due to accidental discharge of firearms in 2011 (the year of the report). Those numbers do not include suicides, assaults or other actions of a similar nature. Simply accidental shootings. A further 222 people died due to firearm discharge under "undetermined intent".
851 deaths out of 117,181,000 households with firearms. That is statistically insignificant, although tragic.
You may also note from above that accidental deaths from firearms has been trending down since 1981.
And Everytown is not an entirely credible source, with a well known history of bias.
They are also, very likely, 851 deaths that would have been 100% preventable if proper gun safety had been followed.
Or a better investment in mental health services - which would also held prevent mass shootings
Well, it varies depending on where in the US you live, but besides the potential of a criminal encounter with long police response time, in rural areas you might also have to deal with coyotes, wolves, black bears, brown bears, or mountain lions. Not to mention large numbers of smaller pests who are less dangerous (to humans) but can be very dangerous to pets and poultry livestock, namely raccoons, possums, and foxes. Not to mention all the damage to crops (and cars, and people) that animals like deer can cause (and the significant supplement to your diet that hunting animals like deer can bring).
To be clear, the original claim was that farmers needed guns to protect themselves from criminals, due to being so far from law enforcement. I fully understand that bears and suchlike are a potential problem, but from my understanding it's not usually of the 'violent ex' or 'give me your wallet' kind.
And I would imagine that bear and coyotes are less of a threat in, say, Los Angeles.
Down here, farmers have specific exemptions to the normal firearms laws, allowing them to have firearms with appropriate licencing to do what they need to do.
There are probably more coyotes in LA than you'd expect.
But even so, not everyone lives in LA, and that's part of my point. And not everyone who lives in a rural area is a farmer. People living in rural areas needing (or wanting guns) due to slow police response times is only one part of it. Yes, it was what we were originally talking about, but I figured that bit about wildlife was pertinent since Iron_Captain seemed to be confused about why someone living in rural America might feel the need to own a gun. The answer is, there are a lot of valid reasons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/24 00:53:46
