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Grav is clearly worth the 5 extra points on the majority of the bikes. Not all but it is really good against almost all armies and lists

Anti air is still a problem. The fighter isn't great, the missiles are OK but only against xenos flyers. AV 12 imperial stuff (with jink) isn't going to care much. It will make FMCS jink, bit BK already do that. It doesn't have the ability to hard kill a heldrake or a flyrant, even under ideal conditions. Better off taking a fire raptor.

 Silverthorne wrote:
Anti air is still a problem. The fighter isn't great, the missiles are OK but only against xenos flyers. AV 12 imperial stuff (with jink) isn't going to care much. It will make FMCS jink, bit BK already do that. It doesn't have the ability to hard kill a heldrake or a flyrant, even under ideal conditions. Better off taking a fire raptor.

Dark talon is still a pretty good unit for its points

Sure, I agree, bit it doesn't do anything against aircraft.

 Silverthorne wrote:
Sure, I agree, bit it doesn't do anything against aircraft.

I agree as well. But in the end it wasn't designed to. Conceptually or mechanicaly.

I think the nephilim should be 150pts when you compare it to a storm raven.

army list over here ~~~ http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/653861.page

Anti-air role could be filled better by Mortis dreadnoughts than the Nephilim I think - I agree that it's still a bit overcosted. At least Mortis dreadnoughts are a bit more versatile, and Dark Angels can take more than one, which is perfect.

I feel Dark Talons are still too fragile to be good. 3 HP AV 11? When they jink they can't even shoot the Rift.

Ignores Cover will ironically be good in Ravenwing mirrors (those happen in a blue fookin moon)

Dark talon is fine I think. All you really need is that T2 rift bomb + stasis bomb for a charging black knights unit.

Fly off the table if forced to jink, and remember, our flyers re-roll their jink saves. Nothing fragile about that.

Then you lose out on a turn of shooting? Can you drop the bomb if you jink?

The bomb is pretty underwhelming. You can already do the same thing with Interromancy without waiting for turn 3. Black Knights want to be in combat turn 2.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Then you lose out on a turn of shooting? Can you drop the bomb if you jink?

The bomb is pretty underwhelming. You can already do the same thing with Interromancy without waiting for turn 3. Black Knights want to be in combat turn 2.

Pretty sure bombs can be dropped if jinking. I'll have to look it up.

True, but you need 3 warp charges, it won't always work, and can be denied. The bomb will almost always hit at least a portion of the unit. And it's -3 Initiative as well, mind wipe doesn't do that.

Put it this way: if it's a threat you need to drop the bomb on, it'll charge you in turn two or be charged by you in turn two.

The flyer comes in on turn two, and most likely will only be able to drop it turn 3. Now you certainly have hit and run, so it does help for the turn 3 charge, but there's a good chance it won't be
able to affect the crucial combat on turn two.

Also, being str 4 ap 5 makes it a little rubbish for getting to the bit with the initiative check, unless you're fighting IG or something. It's really more useful for Deathwing or Greenwing,

Staple of any green wing will be command squad with the relentless banner.

Well I'd like some Squadrons of Mortis Dreads for sure.
But afaik there is currently no place for FW models in the formations unless they update their rules...
You can't just substitute a Dreadnought with a Mark V Mortis Dread, they're not the same. You'd need an extra CAD for these to bring in.
So, for now, my fire raptor is being shelved.. :/

My brother plays Dark Angels. I think he will be pleased - they look like they have received some serious buffs.

IMHO Deathwing still suffer from the problem that Terminators are a bit too expensive for their damage output, and dreadnoughts of any type are too easy to glance to death. But they have still received some nice looking buffs e.g. the upgrade that gives them fear.

tedurur wrote:
Hmm, what about adding the "Battle of Keyek" Relic of glory to a Dark Talon. 195 pts for a str10 ap2 ignore cover blast flier could be quite nice?

It would probably perform well, but I find it hilarious that a design from the late 40th millenium (when the Nephilim was first introduced, and the Dark Talon is based of the jetfighter so it's probably even younger) participated in a battle during the Great Crusade.

Can not the nephilim take twin-linked lascannons?

So I just realized you can build an all landspeeder army with rerollable 3+ jink... (2+ on the Darkshrouds themselves.)

Sableclaw + 11 units of Landspeeder/Landspeeder Darkshroud + a couple of the plasma one

It would take 27 Scat bike shots to strip one HP from a speeder jinking near a dark shroud.

Of course, if you ran into a mobile melee army, I don't think all the overwatch in the world would save you.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Can not the nephilim take twin-linked lascannons?

It can, and it makes it marginally better at its job, but not by much. It does stand a better chance of immobilizing a flyer due to AP2, so there is that.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Can not the nephilim take twin-linked lascannons?

It can, and it makes it marginally better at its job, but not by much. It does stand a better chance of immobilizing a flyer due to AP2, so there is that.

Actually, the chance is the same... you just have a better chance of destroying instead of whatever the 1 result is.

Mavnas wrote:

Of course, if you ran into a mobile melee army, I don't think all the overwatch in the world would save you.

What about the Ravenshield?

 raiden wrote:
Staple of any green wing will be command squad with the relentless banner.

The idea being they are loaded with grav?

kingleir wrote:

 raiden wrote:
Staple of any green wing will be command squad with the relentless banner.

The idea being they are loaded with grav?

Which is outclassed by normal bike command squad both in terms of mobility, durability and cost...

Mavnas wrote:
So I just realized you can build an all landspeeder army with rerollable 3+ jink... (2+ on the Darkshrouds themselves.)

Sableclaw + 11 units of Landspeeder/Landspeeder Darkshroud + a couple of the plasma one

It would take 27 Scat bike shots to strip one HP from a speeder jinking near a dark shroud.

Of course, if you ran into a mobile melee army, I don't think all the overwatch in the world would save you.

Shrouded confers to the unit so the darkshroud AND the speeders have a 2+ jink in the open

In a 2,000 point game, what would be a good proportion of Ravenwing to Deathwing?

I played a 10 man RBK deathstar with only 1 librarian and a support squadron.

Believe me when i say that these guys are near indestructible.

I plan on running a 3 man SM conclave on bikes for 2+ casting of invisibility or forewarning.

People are trash talking grim resolve like it isn't great but that unit alone put out 20 plasma, 2 bolter, 3 heavy bolter, 12 assault cannon, and 6 missile shots. Hitting on 5s or better


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Relapse wrote:
In a 2,000 point game, what would be a good proportion of Ravenwing to Deathwing?

2000pts of ravenwing lol

Seriously, if you were to run both, take the 1hq and 2 5 man termie squads. Anymore i think would be wasted. Thats already at least 600pts you aren't spending on ravenwing

Ravenwing certainly sounds like the fun way to go, with so many options in it now. I am annoyed that we lost the ability to add a Land Speeder into a bike squad (sure, there is the formation that does the same thing, and the Ravenwing detachment has so many FA slots to make up for it). Might have to trawl through Ebay to round up more DV bikes, attack bikes, and land speeders. Never really did like the bigger speeders, but I might have to pick one or two up eventually.

I like that the RW command squad can go up to six models, I'm currently thinking of running several of the Ravenwing formations along with a Deathwing formation (really nice that the RW teleport homers have a 12" range due to their formation). I'll have to check my inventory of models to see what I can do. Could be fun drive the bikes forward and use that 12" teleport homer range to drop the DW units behind enemy vehicles.

Yeah that formation is much better than just taking a bike squad. The only reason i see not to is if you need all your speeders for support squadrons

The command squad only gets one more model than it use to. I think, now they are closer to invincibility, 10 bk is a better option

How well would a las/plas razorbacks run in the demi company? I have no experience with that particular load out. I'm thinking of running the tacticals w/ grav cannons, the devs w/ grav cannons and the assault w/ flamers

Then the hammer of caliban predator w/ twl las and hb sponsons and a landraider.

For about 1850pts.

No sure about any of it as I've never ran any of that stuff before.

 jokerkd wrote:
Yeah that formation is much better than just taking a bike squad. The only reason i see not to is if you need all your speeders for support squadrons

The command squad only gets one more model than it use to. I think, now they are closer to invincibility, 10 bk is a better option

Command squad is still pretty good. The apothecary can make the squad even more difficult to kill, and can be a good line of defense against low AP ignores cover. But having 10 dudes in a squad is pretty tough too, and could be murder in CC as well with all those S5 Rending attacks...

As for the speeders, I will also have to go to eBay and hope I can still find some for cheap. I only have one at the moment (other than Sableclaw).