Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?

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**nareik**

Orock wrote:
I kind of am. What they have been doing since going public has just completely turned me off to them. However the IP's are too valuable to let languish, so I'm sure someone like Hasbro would snatch them up if they went under.

Aside from those who don't deserve to losing their jobs I can't think of one downside to it. I truly believe almost anyone could run them better at this point.

I hope not, lots of good people work at GW (both in stores and HQ) and it would be a shame for these people's jobs to be in jeopardy. Furthermore Warhammer World is an excellent nerd tourist attraction. It would be a shame for Nottingham if GW was to fail.

**Grimtuff**

Not the final nail. GW being the world's slowest sinking ship is a great source of entertainment that will be lost.

I'd call them a Mickey Mouse operation, but that would be an insult to cartoon mice everywhere.

**migooo**

Honestly I hope it does tank but GW need to be bought by someone who cares. Or run as a Cooperative by it's fan base but that's never going to happen.

It's expanded to much and suffers heavily from bean counter syndrome. Upper management is logged with reshuffling constantly. It's lost what it was.

Kirby who was originally brought in as an accountant seized control really quickly. I think it's been noted that he has bought and sold stock in a very suspicious way. He is milking it and cares nothing, nothing for how people view it as long as they buy.

**Talys**

Grimtuff wrote:
I'd call them a Mickey Mouse operation, but that would be an insult to cartoon mice everywhere.

I've actually never understood that expression. I mean, Mickey Mouse was pretty successful, right?

No doubt the most successful mouse out there. Makes Jerry look like a welfare case, and is a lot more sane than Speedy Gonzales. The 3 blind dudes, well, they're not going anywhere fast, though Ralph has a motorcycle, so he can at least get around. I suppose there's always Chuck E. Cheese... at least he gets pizza!

**Silent Puffin?**

TheAuldGrump wrote:
For GW?

No, not really.

For GW under its current management?

A definite YES.

I do not blame the game designers, nor do I blame the sculptors (mostly... there have been some very lazy shortcuts being taken on some of the sculpts for the last few years).

The people that make the decisions that the game designers and sculptors are then stuck with are the ones that I bear a burden of dislike for.

The people that decide to be IP bullies, those I very much dislike.

The people that are so enamored of their own opinions that they crow about not bothering with market research, I despise.

But GW, as itself?

I remember the 'good old days'.

The Auld Grump

what he said. The one and only good thing that remains with GW is the outstanding fluff. Or rather 'remained' WHFB appears to be gone for good and the 40K fluff has been in a downward spiral towards the darkest depths of fanfiction for years now.

There are 2 possibilities of salvation as far as I can see. Firstly a miracle occurs and GW put in place a competent management scheme. Secondly they get bought out by someone who knows what they are doing ( FFG writes far better 40K fluff than GW has for years). Even if they get bought out by some faceless megacorp I doubt things could be any worse than they are know.

**blingman**

They must be doing something right to attract the derision of so many Americans, jealous the world's number one gaming company is British!

Funny that , I come to the forum once a year too see those with the same agenda banging the same tired old drum, GW is going nowhere matter how much you people cry about it.

Have to love how you all think you know what is behind their decisions as well lol.

**SlaveToDorkness**

huh, Annual Troll is annual.

See ya next year!

**thegreatchimp**

TheAuldGrump wrote:
For GW?

No, not really.

For GW under its current management?

A definite YES.

I do not blame the game designers, nor do I blame the sculptors (mostly... there have been some very lazy shortcuts being taken on some of the sculpts for the last few years).

The people that make the decisions that the game designers and sculptors are then stuck with are the ones that I bear a burden of dislike for.

The people that decide to be IP bullies, those I very much dislike.

The people that are so enamored of their own opinions that they crow about not bothering with market research, I despise.

But GW, as itself?

I remember the 'good old days'.

The Auld Grump

Likewise

**Nomeny**

No, not really. I mean, GW provides me with my 40k Hobby, which I really like. I don't really care about LOTR/Hobbit, although it looks neat, and I gave up on WFB at the start of 6th edition. That GW is producing new products is a good thing, although I suppose what I really really want is an Adeptus Titanicus with the newest plastic-tech featuring 6mm version of the Forgeworld 28mm Titans. That would be awesome.

My point being that I would have to care about things like WFB and AoS in order to have much of an interest in which way they go. Which may seem odd if I'm writing about them, but I've occasionally felt my lack of care for them rather oddly, like one might probe a gap where a wisdom tooth used to be. There's plenty of other stuff I don't care about, but for the most part it's not stuff that I once tried to make an effort to like.

**MalusCalibur**

Absolutely, though I imagine it won't be - rather just an accelerant for the inevitable slide into irrelevance that GW is on.

The idea that an imbecile like Kirby can be allowed to run a once-great company into the ground, allowing its games and universes to be destroyed by abysmal design and writing (and in Fantasy's case, tossed out altogether) in the interests of lining his own pocket with no thought for those whose jobs he is sacrificing, and being poised to walk away with enough money to keep him highly comfortable for the rest of his life without any consequences for his utter incompetence, makes me sick.

I would far prefer GW to be 'saved' by having Kirby and his ilk ousted forcibly from the company, but it's not going to happen. All I can hope for is that the company dies sooner rather than later, to spare any further damage being done.

**Kilkrazy**

If Fantasy had become the basket case that a lot of people said, I think the failure of its replacement would not be a huge problem.

If the new game succeeds, though, it surely will usher in a new era for GW Fantasy Battle and thereby the company..

**TheAuldGrump**

Kilkrazy wrote:
If Fantasy had become the basket case that a lot of people said, I think the failure of its replacement would not be a huge problem.

If the new game succeeds, though, it surely will usher in a new era for GW Fantasy Battle and thereby the company..

And if pigs had wings....

The Auld Grump - plus, there is the difference between 'more successful' and 'successful enough'....

**Mr.Church13**

So what would it take for a private investor to outright buy GW? They honestly can't be worth all that much compared to all the other corps out there.

Speaking as a hypothetical crazy billionaire.

**TheCustomLime**

No. I hope Age of Sigmar is a good game and that it shows that GW's market wants good rule sets.

**migooo**

Last time I worked it out they would need to pay between 39- 50 million .

However in order to break Kirby's power over GW they need to have over 6-12 million in shares there by being the senior share holder and effectively being GW's boss.

But Kirby is sneaky and I'd suspect he intends to run it to the ground and would torpedo anybody who tried to "save" GW.

This is why you don't give accountants power within a company.

**Mr.Church13**

migooo wrote:
Last time I worked it out they would need to pay between 39- 50 million .

However in order to break Kirby's power over GW they need to have over 6-12 million in shares there by being the senior share holder and effectively being GW's boss.

But Kirby is sneaky and I'd suspect he intends to run it to the ground and would torpedo anybody who tried to "save" GW.

This is why you don't give accountants power within a company.

Well now I know. Now I just need to find an insane billionaire to fund my grand schemes.

**JamesY**

Mr.Church13 wrote:
migooo wrote:
Last time I worked it out they would need to pay between 39- 50 million .

However in order to break Kirby's power over GW they need to have over 6-12 million in shares there by being the senior share holder and effectively being GW's boss.

But Kirby is sneaky and I'd suspect he intends to run it to the ground and would torpedo anybody who tried to "save" GW.

This is why you don't give accountants power within a company.

Well now I know. Now I just need to find an insane billionaire to fund my grand schemes.

Happens in football...

**Talys**

JamesY wrote:
Mr.Church13 wrote:
migooo wrote:
Last time I worked it out they would need to pay between 39- 50 million .

However in order to break Kirby's power over GW they need to have over 6-12 million in shares there by being the senior share holder and effectively being GW's boss.

But Kirby is sneaky and I'd suspect he intends to run it to the ground and would torpedo anybody who tried to "save" GW.

This is why you don't give accountants power within a company.

Well now I know. Now I just need to find an insane billionaire to fund my grand schemes.

Happens in football...

And basketball. LA Clippers sold to Ballmer for $2 billion, I think.

**Tannhauser42**

The sad part is that the only way things will change at GW is when they finally do go into the red for a year. And, at that point, it could be too late to really save them, as how much money would they still have on hand in order to reinvest into a better product? How long until they reach the point TSR hit, when they suddenly get a whole bunch of unsold product returned to them that they can't cover the costs on?

**darkcloak**

Yeah...

glad I got my fix of this classic game before it tanked...

... Oh wait!

**timetowaste85**

If Mikhaila's information from his rep is accurate, you might just get your wish. This sounds frightfully terrible. Things were sounding amazing earlier: 4 pages of rules. Data cards with each unit. Now we find out 1 chaos warrior=1 goblin. One dragon=20 night goblins. Da fuq?!

**Torga_DW**

Talys wrote:
Grimtuff wrote:
I'd call them a Mickey Mouse operation, but that would be an insult to cartoon mice everywhere.

I've actually never understood that expression. I mean, Mickey Mouse was pretty successful, right? No doubt the most successful mouse out there. Makes Jerry look like a welfare case, and is a lot more sane than Speedy Gonzales. The 3 blind dudes, well, they're not going anywhere fast, though Ralph has a motorcycle, so he can at least get around. I suppose there's always Chuck E. Cheese... at least he gets pizza!

Mickey mouse hangs out with a sailor who doesn't wear pants, and a stoner who can only be described as goofy. They get the job done, but it's always an effort and things never go according to plan.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tannhauser42 wrote:
The sad part is that the only way things will change at GW is when they finally do go into the red for a year. And, at that point, it could be too late to really save them, as how much money would they still have on hand in order to reinvest into a better product? How long until they reach the point TSR hit, when they suddenly get a whole bunch of unsold product returned to them that they can't cover the costs on?

Right now they could pretty much rename themselves warhammer 40,000 as a business, so i think the point of no return will be visible when 40k starts getting a similar approach.

**techsoldaten**

migooo wrote:
Honestly I hope it does tank but GW need to be bought by someone who cares. Or run as a Cooperative by it's fan base but that's never going to happen.

It's expanded to much and suffers heavily from bean counter syndrome. Upper management is logged with reshuffling constantly. It's lost what it was.

Kirby who was originally brought in as an accountant seized control really quickly. I think it's been noted that he has bought and sold stock in a very suspicious way. He is milking it and cares nothing, nothing for how people view it as long as they buy.

How many gamers putting in $1000 a piece would it take to get a majority share of GW?

Before you say it's not possible, think about how much you spent on your current army. Now imagine if dividends could be paid out in heavily discounted miniatures.

We should totally start an investors group.

**Azreal13**

timetowaste85 wrote:
If Mikhaila's information from his rep is accurate, you might just get your wish. This sounds frightfully terrible. Things were sounding amazing earlier: 4 pages of rules. Data cards with each unit. Now we find out 1 chaos warrior=1 goblin. One dragon=20 night goblins. Da fuq?!

That quote in all its full, WTF glory!

mikhaila wrote:
OK,....this sucks so hard....I'm having trouble typing, hands shaking....

Just spent an hour and a half on the phone with GW, them trying in vain to make me understand how I can play the game, let alone how i could make someone want to buy it.

It has no points, no system to balance armies, nothing whatsoever tells the two players what they can put on the table.

Just play with what you want to play with.

I'm having trouble with the idea of two 12 year olds opening up figure cases and playing a game....let alone running a league, or a tournament.

I argued and asked for any reason they didn't have a points system. They just kept telling me it doesn't have one, doesn't need one, the game has things that give the player with least models an advantage, or why one dragon gets killed by a unit. It was like talking with people that don't play the game. Have never played the game. Only played the scenarios in AoS.

With the vast difference in profile between models in Warhammer, it's absurd to think you can balance by model count.

And you can't balance by Warscroll, this is just multiple models which can have hugely different numbers and stats.

And you can't balance by wounds. Chaos Warrior = 1 goblin? Nagash = 10 goblins?

In fact, Nagash or a large dragon or blood thirster is aways optimal. Warscrolls =1, Model count =1, Wounds < 10.

Because of the huge difference in power of the playing pieces, nothing makes sense unless you balance by a number that reflects the value of the individual piece in the game.

AoS is essentially Unbound armies where you bring what you want. You aren't even restricted by faction, you just might have models that don't gain a bonus others might from an icon or leader.

I've actually been in tears today over what they did to WFB. I have no idea how I will sell this game in my shop other than an expensive boardgame.

**Relapse**

insaniak wrote:
Da Boss wrote:
Nah, I want GW to improve, not fail.

This.

I see no particular reason to wish the demise of the company. I would just like to see them return to a focus on improving the product, rather than just changing it.

I'll third that. I have enjoyed both Fantasy and 40K for a couple decades and hope they come back to their senses. That post by Mikhaila about Fantasy, though...

**Kilkrazy**

The rep to whom MIkhaila spoke probably doesn't know much about the game and what he said probably was not accurate.

A game with utterly no balance would be total gak. Just a couple of kids shrieking and throwing dice around randomly. I cannot believe GW do not understand this.

The game will have balancing mechanisms. We don't know what they are yet, The danger is being designed by GW they may not work properly.

I also think the structure of a four page basic rules plus cards for each unit could be made to work really well. But again, I am worried about GW's ability to do that.

**Thud**

techsoldaten wrote:
migooo wrote:
Honestly I hope it does tank but GW need to be bought by someone who cares. Or run as a Cooperative by it's fan base but that's never going to happen.

It's expanded to much and suffers heavily from bean counter syndrome. Upper management is logged with reshuffling constantly. It's lost what it was.

Kirby who was originally brought in as an accountant seized control really quickly. I think it's been noted that he has bought and sold stock in a very suspicious way. He is milking it and cares nothing, nothing for how people view it as long as they buy.

How many gamers putting in $1000 a piece would it take to get a majority share of GW?

Before you say it's not possible, think about how much you spent on your current army. Now imagine if dividends could be paid out in heavily discounted miniatures.

We should totally start an investors group.

81,000. Edit: That'd be for £1,000 each. So, 120,000ish with $1,000 each.

Plus a good deal more, since the stock prices will go up when someone starts buying like crazy.

So, good luck with that.

**Daston**

To me it feels like AoS is more a hobbit/lotr substitute than a whfb reboot.

I have invested so much in gw games over the last 23 years to see them go under. If someone could turn them round than that's got to be good for everyone.

**Wonderwolf**

Orock wrote:
I kind of am. What they have been doing since going public has just completely turned me off to them. However the IP's are too valuable to let languish, so I'm sure someone like Hasbro would snatch them up if they went under.

Aside from those who don't deserve to losing their jobs I can't think of one downside to it. I truly believe almost anyone could run them better at this point.

I think it's been said before that Hasbro (or anyone else) would never buy an extensive retail chain & manufacturing company like this.

Previous stuff they bought, like Wizards of the Coast, was just an office with a handful of people, some IP stuff and perhaps a few running contracts with external printing companies/distributors, etc.. Not hundreds of stores around the world with staff, rents, overheads, etc.., logistic centers, factories, etc..

Also, AoS won't sink GW. Fantasy was/is dead and GW was/is afloat. If AoS tanks, they'll just be at the same point they are now.

**Kirasu**

Kilkrazy wrote:
The rep to whom MIkhaila spoke probably doesn't know much about the game and what he said probably was not accurate.

A game with utterly no balance would be total gak. Just a couple of kids shrieking and throwing dice around randomly. I cannot believe GW do not understand this.

The game will have balancing mechanisms. We don't know what they are yet, The danger is being designed by GW they may not work properly.

I also think the structure of a four page basic rules plus cards for each unit could be made to work really well. But again, I am worried about GW's ability to do that.

This in a nutshell is the very basic problem with GW. Nothing GW does will work correctly until they fix the underlying issue of incompetence at designing games. Lots of ideas yet no quality control on them and/or implementing them in the worst way possible.

Wish I was home so I could have sold my WFB 6 months ago.