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 Talys wrote:
When it comes to entertainment, people should do things that they enjoy, because you have only 25,000 days, give or take, to do so..

Absolutely.

The reason for the complaining is that people want to continue doing that thing that they enjoy, and so they get upset when the ability to do so is inhibited.

 insaniak wrote:

 Talys wrote:
When it comes to entertainment, people should do things that they enjoy, because you have only 25,000 days, give or take, to do so..

Absolutely.

The reason for the complaining is that people want to continue doing that thing that they enjoy, and so they get upset when the ability to do so is inhibited.

No disagreement. At some point, when fighting for change becomes futile, I just think people are better off doing something (else) positive that they enjoy, than something negative that they don't. Unless people enjoy complaining, which I would not understand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chute82 wrote:

That's just sales in your little part of Canada.. The U.S. Market is going to make or break this release. There are zero pre orders in the three shops I frequent here. So if I base it on my little corner of the world it's going to be a flop

There are fewer stores in Canada because our population is about 1/10 of the US. However, the buying patterns are pretty similar. It's not all about the USA, by the way. Europe is also a big market. And let's not forget about Australia . Didn't someone say it was 7%+ of FW's revenue? or course, with Australia's super special pricing that's probably just six copies of the game

To answer the title question: yes

You know them, the people that predict the demise of GW every time the wind changes direction.

People have been predicting the imminent demise of GW on practically a weekly basis since I started playing in the early nineties.

Eventually they might be right; after all even a blind dog eventually finds his own rear end if he tries enough times...

I'm curious, was there a purpose to that post beyond a backhanded swipe at people you disagree with?

 Talys wrote:
#1 - I suppose this does disadvantage some models. I guess you could say, it actually makes some sense that large, awkward units are less nimble? I don't think it's game-breaking, anyhow, but it's a valid point.

You can't try to rationalize it on "awkward=less nimble" because the way the rule works is entirely arbitrary based on the configuration of the model. An empire general with his sword at his waist turns on a dime where as that same general with his sword extended calling for a charge is suddenly less nible? Guys on rectangular bases are more awkward for no reason - Silver Helms are as awkward as Skaven Jezzails?

 Talys wrote:
#2 - I imagine these are the exception, rather than the rule. If you base something for a competition/showcase to be highly scenic, and want to play it, just agree to something before the start of the game. But how often do you actually see that?

I think it will happen more often than you think. The 0.5" rule means that your opponent's models may need to encroach onto your bases. I don't think it is an unrealistic stretch for a gaming army to have elements like long static grass, leaf scatter and/or flowers modeled onto them. I for one would not want enemy models resting atop my base material, let alone moving around on it even if it isn't overly scenic. Guys like the new bloodthirster need enemy models to traverse damn near half his base to get to melee him.

 Talys wrote:
#3 - By that logic, there's no inequity, because a flying model couldn't melee the ground model either. In some ways, it makes sense, you can't smack an eagle with a sword, or punch an fighter jet. However, for fantasy gaming purposes you could just say that the stem is part of the model, rather than part of the base. Why? A griffon might swoop down, for instance, coming low enough to melee.

Its not that the flying thing is trying to melee... more that it projects that 3" zone where things can't move... and the things that can't move can't melee it to get rid of the can't move zone because they can't pile in. This only occurs with the monsters on the super tall flying bases like the HE pheonix. If you have dudes with long enough spears... well... no problem. Again... its inconsistent. All the other flying critters can be melee'd just fine.

If they had just kept it base to base, these would never have been an issue, and you wouldn't have to issue a FAQ response clarifying if Nagash's souls are part of a scenic base or part of the dude. (It could be argued either way.)

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'm curious, was there a purpose to that post beyond a backhanded swipe at people you disagree with?

Purpose? OP asked a question and I responded.

I don't think I disagreed with anything. I simply pointed out that YES a sub-sect of people exist and seem to have always existed that have predicted and hoped for the demise of GW. I didn't speak to the validity of their opinion or motivations one way or the other: their motivations might be valid or totally bunk. I don't really care.

However most in my experience seem to be failing at nailing down the timeframe of GW's demise.

Doomsaying isn't an exact science I guess...

 keezus wrote:
Guys like the new bloodthirster need enemy models to traverse damn near half his base to get to melee him.

Which leads to the next problem, which is - What happens when it's the Bloodthirster's turn to move, and he has half the opponent's army sitting on his base?

 insaniak wrote:

 keezus wrote:
Guys like the new bloodthirster need enemy models to traverse damn near half his base to get to melee him.

Which leads to the next problem, which is - What happens when it's the Bloodthirster's turn to move, and he has half the opponent's army sitting on his base?

Makes for a great cinematic scene

 insaniak wrote:

 keezus wrote:
Guys like the new bloodthirster need enemy models to traverse damn near half his base to get to melee him.

Which leads to the next problem, which is - What happens when it's the Bloodthirster's turn to move, and he has half the opponent's army sitting on his base?

Sssssssh, just buy more models.

"I think we're gonna need a bigger boat base. "

Good point Roy Schnieder, good point.

All big bases to have docking points on them for smaller bases of all sizes, round and square. It's easy this games design lark, i can see why GW left that one to us.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I am looking forwards to 40K rules and codexes being free.

4 page rules and the codex rules will be on the scrolls!

The funny thing is that i think Aos will be an success, so many 40k players and collectors are interested in the models that it will sell out, giving the wrong signal to the GW overlords

A successful release doesn't mean the game will succeed. Gws rules have always been pretty bad but in the past they were bad. because of too much creativity. Today's bad ideas are born from the desire to slash costs and boosts profits by any means.

It'll be a flop because people play gw games for the fluff, the atmosphere and a personal connection to an army. Aos destroyed all of those. It'll be dead and gone within the year I imagine. No amount of positive thinking will bring back lost sales from people disgusted by the changes.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

The funny thing is that i think Aos will be an success, so many 40k players and collectors are interested in the models that it will sell out, giving the wrong signal to the GW overlords

Lots of people liked Dreadfleet's models.....

The real test of this games commercial success or failure will be what its sales are like next year.


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 Kirasu wrote:

It'll be a flop because people play gw games for the fluff, the atmosphere and a personal connection to an army. Aos destroyed all of those.

People play games and factions for lots of reasons besides fluff, not least on table effectiveness, so its not as simple as you describe.

It won't be the final nail at all, 40k alone will keep the company buoyant for a long time to come. If it bombs, the game will probably die, and they can let it go. We can still play the game, so that won't change. There is 30 yrs worth of fluff out there (coincidentally, whilst people talk about loving the background, in a year in the Nottingham store, I saw less than 5 fantasy novels meet the till), so plenty to read even if nothing new is added. Models will still be available via alternative channels. If it succeeded, well then they have flogged a dying horse back to life. Either way, they will carry on.

The problem of moving models with long spears or tails, because you have to swing them round and the spearpoint defines the movement, is irrelevant because there are no rules regarding facing. Just move your figure in a straight line without changing its facing and you will be fine. Players who dislike the aesthetic will agree to move the models, then spin them into a realistic alignment.

The problem of 3 inch flying bases, or wide bases preventing contact, will just be ignored by most players, whio will agree to measure base to base.

Obviously these points are real problems in the rules, and there will be other snags to be discovered. This is the inevitable result of a set of rules that could have been written by a clever 12 year old during a boring history lesson.

To be fair to GW, since the AOS rules are free, I don't think they owe players a lot of in-depth design, and you are not getting it.

However GW have always had the view that players should sort things out among themselves. If we are to be optimistic, this opens the field for players to elaborate and improve the rules in various directions. Perhaps codifying it into a tournament playable format via an INAT style FAQ.

What has really hurt in this case, and I think is the real indicator of precisely how callous GW are in terms of driving towards the big $, is that they decided to stop supporting the game that was for many years the bed-rock of what made GW the leading company in sci-fi/fantasy gaming.

I haven't played as many games of WHFB as some of the tactical elements of it had been reduced in 8th edition, but at it's core it's still an excellent system. As a wargamer, and someone who enjoys having to use my noddle when playing a game and the use of strategy in a game, I thoroughly appreciated it.

But rather than letting this game continue in some form (which really wouldn't have been that difficult, in terms of how specialist games were supported for many years) the entire thing has been officially consigned to the scrap-heap, in favour of.. well, something that looks extremely shallow by comparison, and is already being ripped apart by the veteran gaming community.

Everyone is distracted by the new shiny for now; some of the miniatures, the new artwork and setting, admittedly it looks lovely and GW has done a great job of bedazzling, but from what has been released so far, once you get into the core mechanics of the game and repeat play, it's basically going to be replacing Tchaikovsky with Alex from One Direction (dressed up really smartly) sat playing on a tin-can drum. (Not to be too extreme! )

You know, I'm sick of all the GW-bashing. Sick of it. It just goes on, and on, and on, and on. It's like people have got nothing better to do with their lives than whine about the same thing.

If you don't like GW, move away from GW and play another games system. Don't buy their products, don't read their news or their financial reports.

Every single GW-related forum I've visited endlessly whines, bitches, gripes, complains, insults and spreads vitriol, negatively dissecting every single decision the GW makes.

The GW then receives even more criticism for disengaging from public debate eg by closing its forums. It gets slagged off for not listening to its supposed "fans".

Newsflash: YOU ARE NOT FANS. YOU ARE DETRACTORS. In many cases YOU NO LONGER EVEN PLAY THE GAMES. Your right to whine about the GW's decisions ended with your involvement in playing their games.

THEY ARE DISENGAGING TO AVOID YOUR UNHELPFUL AND (in the case of those who don't play) IRRELEVANT CRITICISM. They are human beings who don't want to spend all day reading sarcastic and insulting crap from people who do not have to make the decisions they do and who DON'T EVEN BUY THEIR PRODUCTS.

EDIT: That said, I am open to a REASONABLE argument why people don't like the GW, it just comes across like some people are being little bitches!

Don't bother reading it then. Job done.

Next.

This is a forum for discussing toy soldier games. Necessarily that includes discussion of companies that produce such games.

It is a natural part of discussion that people will argue for and against particular issues. So long as people are polite in their detractions, there is no legitimate reason to stop them from making them.

 NoPoet wrote:
You know, I'm sick of all the GW-bashing.

You know what?

So are most of those complaining.



For the most part, these are people who are passionate about the games that they've devoted time, effort and so, so much money to, and so yes, they get somewhat invested, and take changes that they see as being detrimental to their hobby somewhat personally.


They would like nothing better than to go back to enjoying their hobby the way they used to. But since GW don't listen to the complaints, and proudly proclaim that they do no market research, those people are left making the best that they can of what they're given, and complaining about the things that they don't like in the (probably vain) hope that maybe, just maybe, GW might at some point remember just who it was that got them to the top of the gaming heap and start listening to them again.

You're absolutely spot on that the complaints get tiresome and repetitive. What you're missing is that those complaints are a symptom of the problem, not themselves the problem.

 NoPoet wrote:


Every single GW-related forum I've visited endlessly whines, bitches, gripes, complains, insults and spreads vitriol, negatively dissecting every single decision the GW makes.

Now what does that tell you?

Why would anyone want a company that has given us over 25 years of fun, entertainment and ultimately friendships to fail?

Because their marketing strategy is a bit bizarre and some of their rules arent as tight?

Some seriously reflective perspective needed in this thread.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 NoPoet wrote:


Every single GW-related forum I've visited endlessly whines, bitches, gripes, complains, insults and spreads vitriol, negatively dissecting every single decision the GW makes.

Now what does that tell you?

That GW are the market leader?

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Don't bother reading it then. Job done.

Next.

The GW aren't reading it. This gets them accused of ignorance, aloofness and not caring what people want. Your circular argument means nothing in this context.

It's funny, every decision the GW makes is ripped apart like no other company's. Yet someone like Apple dishes out yesterday's technology and calls it today's must-have innovation, they charge way over the odds for it, and people lap it up. GW have made some repellant decisions to protect its IP, I frankly admit this. But as far as I know, unlike Apple, the GW does not employ sweatshop staff who are committing suicide because of their unbearable conditions, and it is not trying to muscle its way to world domination by forcing everyone to do things its way and pay its inflated prices - Apple customers are totally locked in, GW customers can always use Mantic or whatever models, the only essential purchases are rulebooks (unless of course you're a tournament player).

EDIT: Removed potentially defamatory comment about tournament players.

Uh... Apple cop every bit as much flak as GW does, and then some.

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make there.

Every wargames company gets their own fair share of getting ripped apart with criticism, even Mantic (the main competitor for mass battle fantasy) is frequently criticized as a cheap knock-off with horrible miniatures, and most Warhammer players won't even give it a try, despite the rules being free and them being able to use their existing warhammer armies.

Everyone is free to have their own opinion, the more extreme opinions are rarely the accurate ones.

AoS isn't made for veterans, it is made for the target market of children and teenagers. The free rules and lower number of miniatures makes it easier for a modern target audience that doesn't want to paint 100+ miniatures, or deal with minis that are complex to assemble.

It will probably be quite successful and maximize dividend yield for the shareholders.

As for the topic of the thread, I would like GW to stay around, they serve an important purpose as being the "gateway" into wargaming for a lot of young people who then get older and start playing a wider range of games.

 scarletsquig wrote:


AoS isn't made for veterans, it is made for the target market of children and teenagers. The free rules and lower number of miniatures makes it easier for a modern target audience that doesn't want to paint 100+ miniatures, or deal with minis that are complex to assemble.

if that were the case its an odd choice considering GW is in the business of selling 100's of miniatures.

Free rules for AoS also hampers their key business of selling 'the best models in the world'.

 scarletsquig wrote:

As for the topic of the thread, I would like GW to stay around, they serve an important purpose as being the "gateway" into wargaming for a lot of young people who then get older and start playing a wider range of games.

I think GW served that purpose up to about 5 years ago. Their only gateways are now 40k and AoS. IMO the pool of hobbyists coming into the larger gaming world via GW will shrink. The popularity of boardgames and major franchise game tie ins are better gateways in this age.

Apple do get their share of flak, which I personally believe they deserve.

I worked in the mobile industry and Apple, and in particular its fanboys/fangirls, were just horrible - we all hated them. Note the genuine Apple fans, they were a decent breed, it was the hangers-on, the complainers, those who just wanted an iPhone but wanted to pay Android or Windows prices.

However Apple has a huge following who are extremely devout. The GW seems to have an unvocal minority or defenders. There's a world of difference between the two.

 NoPoet wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Don't bother reading it then. Job done.

Next.

The GW aren't reading it. This gets them accused of ignorance, aloofness and not caring what people want. Your circular argument means nothing in this context.
.

Try reading it again. You don't like people sledging the GW? Don't read a thread with a title like this one. Obvious, really.

GW don't try and force everyone to do it their way and pay inflated prices? you sure about that.

You know what's even more tiresome than the constant whining? The constant whining about the whining

Welcome to the internet, where opinions different to yours may exist, and people may even dare to post them.

And please let's not even get started on the issue of Apple's "true fans", easily the most brainwashed, self-entitled bunch of smugs in human history.