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 Talys wrote:

40k profits are probably rising, but Fantasy and LoTR profits are probably sinking faster. For all we know, those franchises could be *losing* money.

Since AoS is a radical reboot, everything is NOT fine. But it's not the end of the world for GW, either. There are a lot of shades between, 'we're happy' and 'we're bankrupt'.

That's the thing though; we simply don't know if 40k is increasing and the drop in revenue is entirely on the other lines. Its not an unreasonable assumption to make, but so would the assumption that all their lines are shrinking, just at differing rates.

It may not be the end of world for GW right now, but I think they need to walk a much finer line and produce some quality rules to support their minis. AoS is not a quality ruleset, regardless of whether its monetized or not. I'm just a little shocked its all free, so I guess kudos to them. The rules are worth precisely 0$, but at least that's what they're charging.

 Blacksails wrote:
No one is arguing otherwise.

What people are and have been saying is that the downed profits are appearing in spite of price increases, cost cutting measures, rapid releases, 'big gun releases' (Knights, Marine codices, Ad Mech), and that other companies and the hobby industry growing, indicating its not the general economy affecting them.

If you have anything other to add to this conversation besides "They're making money, so everything is fine", please do so, otherwise, we get it.

when did I say everything is fine? and you are simplifying the economics of things to such an extent that it is funny, rapid releases, big gun releases, cost cutting, price increases are all due to multiple factors and in spite of all of that, they still make a profit" and therefore succeeding in the most basic of business sense... other hobbies or compnaies GROWING is great and most of the time could be attributed to them being small companies and therefore growing, as the nature of economics would dictate... they growing and GW making less is not a sign that GW is dying.. it just means the miniature industry is alive and kicking.

so your argument that

"other companies are growing and gw is not therefore GW sucks and is going bankrupt"

is not an argument or even a discussion..

so I will be like you

if you have anything else to add other than "GW IS MAKING LESS AND THEREFORE SUCKS" please do, otherwise, we get it.

I think everyone should get bitethythumb to do their taxes.

Can only end well.

On another note, looks like GW have killed Slaanesh.

I'm not sure why people are "pissed". This is a great hobby and the gameplay is fun.

I would like to see more Fantasy being played, especially at my local game club, a few of us are going to try out Fantasy.

 Azreal13 wrote:


On another note, looks like GW have killed Slaanesh.

What!? Where? How?

Slaanesh is (was?) my favourite chaos god.

Check the thread in N&R. A picture of the chaos emblem with the sigils of the four gods leaked, and Slaanesh's symbol is replaced with something else. Definitely suggests some sort of change...

 Guildsman wrote:
Check the thread in N&R. A picture of the chaos emblem with the sigils of the four gods leaked, and Slaanesh's symbol is replaced with something else. Definitely suggests some sort of change...

Tzeentch?

infinite_array wrote:
Isn't HotT out of print? Or have I just not been able to find the company that sells the 2.1 version (that's the latest, right?).

Doopdedoop.

In the vein of Auld Grump's challenge, people might like to check out this and this, too.

womprat49 wrote:I'm not sure why people are "pissed". This is a great hobby and the gameplay is fun.

It is. Just wait 'til you see the hobby and gameplay outside GW.

I would like to see more Fantasy being played, especially at my local game club, a few of us are going to try out Fantasy.

Which edition? 1st - 8th?

 Guildsman wrote:
Check the thread in N&R. A picture of the chaos emblem with the sigils of the four gods leaked, and Slaanesh's symbol is replaced with something else. Definitely suggests some sort of change...

oh god, most probably more mothers complaining the symbol is too close to something sexual... I miss naked daemonettes

 Blacksails wrote:

 Talys wrote:

40k profits are probably rising, but Fantasy and LoTR profits are probably sinking faster. For all we know, those franchises could be *losing* money.

Since AoS is a radical reboot, everything is NOT fine. But it's not the end of the world for GW, either. There are a lot of shades between, 'we're happy' and 'we're bankrupt'.

That's the thing though; we simply don't know if 40k is increasing and the drop in revenue is entirely on the other lines. Its not an unreasonable assumption to make, but so would the assumption that all their lines are shrinking, just at differing rates.

It may not be the end of world for GW right now, but I think they need to walk a much finer line and produce some quality rules to support their minis. AoS is not a quality ruleset, regardless of whether its monetized or not. I'm just a little shocked its all free, so I guess kudos to them. The rules are worth precisely 0$, but at least that's what they're charging.

You're absolutely right that we don't have the information to draw these conclusions. It's just a likely scenario hypothesis based on revenues declining by less than what we've heard LoTR to be worth, and the certainty that Fantasy has been flagging.

I think a lot of people who have played AoS disagree with you that the rules are worthless. I actually think it's a great, secondary game that is really easy to learn, super easy to balance, and quite fun. It's not really my thing and lacks the depth for a sustained hobby (I'm not going to go out and buy $5,000 of Fantasy miniatures), but I don't know that out was ever meant to be.

Practically speaking, without the rules, I would have bought the AoS box for the models (just like I did with Isle of Blood, every PP battle box and starter). But because the rules are kinda fun and I like the plate mail heroic human knight aesthetic, I will buy the $50 box too. It isn't a ton and won't keep Fantasy afloat, but those are sales GW wouldn't have made from me if they just dropped 9e into Isle of Blood (as they did with Dark Vengeance 7e).

AoS seems very polarizing - I have heard good things from some players, and terrible things from others.

None seem to claim that there is much depth to the game - at best that it is fun, but not tactically deep.

Video battle reports seem to bear this argument up.

And every single one seems to end up with a pileup in the middle of the board.

I compare that with games of Mordheim, and AoS just comes up short.

I compare it with WARMACHINE, and it comes up short. (And I am not a huge fan of WARMACHINE - I like the 'Jacks better than the rules.)

I compare it to Warhammer... and it isn't even the same type of game. Kings of War is much, much closer to Warhammer than this piece of .

If I am making predictions... it will do better than the last version of Warhammer for a short while, then it will drop like a rock as the players find something else to play.

A flash in the pan, aimed at people with short attention spans.

Or, to paraphrase MacBeth 'It is a story told by an idiot, full of sound and fury. Signifying... nothing'.

Battles do not shape the fate of the world - 'cause the world done been blowed up.

The Auld Grump - my highschool drama teacher was named MacBeth... guess which play he had us do? (The only time I had the lead.)

It does indeed seem very polarising, I can't make out which way its going to go tbh, there are plenty of people in both camps.

I hope that Slaanesh has just been altered a tad and not completely removed, not sure how the symbol was rude ?

It certainly was not copyrightable due to it being made up of two very common symbols, maybe thats something to do with it ?

 womprat49 wrote:
I'm not sure why people are "pissed". This is a great hobby and the gameplay is fun.

I would like to see more Fantasy being played, especially at my local game club, a few of us are going to try out Fantasy.

I would too, too bad they killed it. Mordhiem is still out there, though....

You can't kill something already dead.

 Rayvon wrote:
It does indeed seem very polarising, I can't make out which way its going to go tbh, there are plenty of people in both camps.

I hope that Slaanesh has just been altered a tad and not completely removed, not sure how the symbol was rude ?

It certainly was not copyrightable due to it being made up of two very common symbols, maybe thats something to do with it ?

Not rude, but as a composite of the male and female symbols, probably legally indefensible.

Yeah, which makes me wonder if Slaaanesh is just getting a new symbol or being entirely replaced, hidden away through that story of Tyrion capturing him/her/shlim...although I'm not sure how an elf captures a god in the first place

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
AoS seems very polarizing - I have heard good things from some players, and terrible things from others.

None seem to claim that there is much depth to the game - at best that it is fun, but not tactically deep.

Video battle reports seem to bear this argument up.

AoS is definitely polarizing, though I would like to add that a lot of people who are bashing it haven't tried it with proxy models, or whatever. It's better than it looks on paper (remarkably, balance was not an issue at all for us) , and a lot of the silly rules are just silly rules that most people will ignore -- it's a red herring that's good for a laugh, not a reason to love or hate the game.

The game doesn't have a lot of depth to the mechanics, but the special rules are legion. I think to be 'successful' in it -- have a high win ratio against other people who are seasoned players, will require more strategy than we envision at the moment. Presently (and for me, probably forever), we're just playing it as a "hey, let's have fun" skirmisher and not looking for any depth. We're not trying to make combinations of units better; we're just playing with what we have and figuring things out as we go along.

Of course, once there are more competitive events that inevitably sprout, the Internet will sporty many super duper combos (no different than WMH) that "casual" players who just randomly take units won't be able to effectively deal with. Right now, everything kind of just working and being fun is probably just a byproduct of nobody really knowing how to play it "properly".

Some things are for sure, for me. Even if the aesthetic of the models were perfect, AoS would not be the game for me; less so than Warhammer Fantasy Battle would have been, because it doesn't look/feel like it scales well with more models, which is what I crave. On the other hand, my hobby doesn't have enough time and energy for 2 massive army games, so this is not entirely a bad thing for GW. I'm happy to keep AoS for occasional play, the same way as X-Wing or Malifaux. At least the model requirements are super-duper-easy to satisfy.

 Talys wrote:


You're absolutely right that we don't have the information to draw these conclusions. It's just a likely scenario hypothesis based on revenues declining by less than what we've heard LoTR to be worth, and the certainty that Fantasy has been flagging.

Fantasy has been flagging, but I think End Times may have kept it floating for a little longer at least for the purpose of this upcoming report. Again, its a totally reasonable claim that I find 100% plausible that 40k may very well be largely stagnant in growth while the other lines are what's dragging GW down. I'd love to see the actual numbers for curiosity, but such is life I suppose.

I think a lot of people who have played AoS disagree with you that the rules are worthless. I actually think it's a great, secondary game that is really easy to learn, super easy to balance, and quite fun. It's not really my thing and lacks the depth for a sustained hobby (I'm not going to go out and buy $5,000 of Fantasy miniatures), but I don't know that out was ever meant to be.

My issues with it are that it lacks so much depth. Its simple, which is a plus, but its simple in the wrong ways. Measuring to models is actually more complicated than just using bases. Assault rules are wonky, there are loopholes that are immediately apparent the rules don't really cover or break the game. There is zero balance, no scenarios, and no army construction.

Just so we're clear, I like two things about the rules. They're free, and they're simple/short. Those two things are steps in the right direction. However, like all things GW, those two steps are accompanied by three steps back. Wonky 'narrative' rules are a bad joke (literally), total lack of balance (no, wounds are not a good balancing mechanism, the same way attacks/damage or bravery aren't good indicators), and basic rules writing is still lacking with regards to measuring, assault, and movement issues. There's little to no depth or real tactics, due in part to the lack of balance. There's no way to accurately determine why you won; could it be that the game wasn't balanced in the first place, or did you actually out play your opponent...by getting into assault first or basic target priority.

What I'll be curious about is in a few months to a year how many people will still say AoS is good/awesome if the game doesn't get fleshed out significantly.

Time will tell I suppose.

Practically speaking, without the rules, I would have bought the AoS box for the models (just like I did with Isle of Blood, every PP battle box and starter). But because the rules are kinda fun and I like the plate mail heroic human knight aesthetic, I will buy the $50 box too. It isn't a ton and won't keep Fantasy afloat, but those are sales GW wouldn't have made from me if they just dropped 9e into Isle of Blood (as they did with Dark Vengeance 7e).

The models certainly aren't bad. Fantasy Mehreens are not my shtick, so I'll wait and see what the new factions (the renaming was pretty stupid) look like before I judge too harshly.

The real shame though is the lack of a real successor to 8th for all those players.

*Edit* On a lighter note, some guys on reddit figured out that MSRP is as good a balancing benchmark. Pretty funny idea.

 Blacksails wrote:
The real shame though is the lack of a real successor to 8th for all those players.

Yeah, I can certainly sympathize.

 Blacksails wrote:
*Edit* On a lighter note, some guys on reddit figured out that MSRP is as good a balancing benchmark. Pretty funny idea.

ROFL. I didn't think of this. That's actually a pretty good idea, LOL.

After seeing White Dwarves selling on Ebay for $15 and more, I think AoS is going to be a shot in the arm for Fantasy instead of a nail in the coffin.

 Talys wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
The real shame though is the lack of a real successor to 8th for all those players.

Yeah, I can certainly sympathize.

 Blacksails wrote:
*Edit* On a lighter note, some guys on reddit figured out that MSRP is as good a balancing benchmark. Pretty funny idea.

ROFL. I didn't think of this. That's actually a pretty good idea, LOL.

It certainly got a chuckle out of me anyways.

Ah well, I'm not a fantasy player, though I have a box of lizardmen in the house somewhere. AoS doesn't appeal to me in its current form, and may continue to be unappealing to me, but I'll watching regardless to see what happens, and more importantly, what leaks into 40k.

If they really did kill of slaanesh, I'll be rather disappointed.

Relapse wrote:
After seeing White Dwarves selling on Ebay for $15 and more, I think AoS is going to be a shot in the arm for Fantasy instead of a nail in the coffin.

No, that's got to be an anomaly or some sort of weird groupthink. Assuming people are buying them for $10 and they're not simply being listed for that that is.

The mini is available in the box from Sat, and one could simply download the magazine (at no cost, if you're that way inclined) if you wanted to read it.

I suspect the free mini has caused a spike in demand for WD, which I expect GW forgot to account for, given the they've underestimated demand in the past (cause research is so otiose) but anyone paying more than cover price + postage is being a little illogical.

Or somehow some people have convinced themselves this issue will become a collector's item.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Relapse wrote:
After seeing White Dwarves selling on Ebay for $15 and more, I think AoS is going to be a shot in the arm for Fantasy instead of a nail in the coffin.

No, that's got to be an anomaly or some sort of weird groupthink. Assuming people are buying them for $10 and they're not simply being listed for that that is.

The mini is available in the box from Sat, and one could simply download the magazine (at no cost, if you're that way inclined) if you wanted to read it.

I suspect the free mini has caused a spike in demand for WD, which I expect GW forgot to account for, given the they've underestimated demand in the past (cause research is so otiose) but anyone paying more than cover price + postage is being a little illogical.

Or somehow some people have convinced themselves this issue will become a collector's item.

There are multiple bids on these White Dwarves, so it's not just a listed price.


There are 4 game stores within a half hour of each other here, giving a fair chance for feedback and almost everyone that's actually played the game like it.

Not quite seeing the link with the WDs, but ok - ah, you edited, still not a logical purchase though, but then, I've seen used kits of available models go for over RRP on eBay, it isn't a place to make logical assumptions.

Maybe it will work, personally I haven't played it, I didn't play Fantasy either, and I'm disinclined to try because of the lack of points and stupid rules. I will condemn it for the lack of a balancing system, but I won't condemn it as a poor game unless I try it.

But sadly for GW there's a world between liking a game and investing hundreds of currency into it. I mean, I like Cards Against Humanity, but I won't be spending hundreds of pounds on it.

Before you buy something, though, you have to like it. Indications around here are that it's going to sell pretty well. One of the game store owners here is so confident in what he's been seeing, he's giving out a $35 dollar unit box free with each purchase.

You say confident, I say incentive.

We shall see. But if the reaction to the new version around here is anything to go by, it'll do well for GW.
For myself, I'll play both this and KoW, because there're parts of both systems I like.

Relapse wrote:
Before you buy something, though, you have to like it. Indications around here are that it's going to sell pretty well. One of the game store owners here is so confident in what he's been seeing, he's giving out a $35 dollar unit box free with each purchase.

You say that like the store is not still making $50+ with that "bundle".

All ways up, giving something away with something people are allegedly keen to buy already makes not a lick of sense, unless there's particularly intense competition in the area.

Look at X Wing starters last year, people really wanted those, and when stock started getting thin on the ground they started paying above RRP for them. I don't see the same thing happening with AoS (which is partly due to GW not having the supply chain issues FFG did, but still..)

 Azreal13 wrote:
All ways up, giving something away with something people are allegedly keen to buy already makes not a lick of sense, unless there's particularly intense competition in the area.

Look at X Wing starters last year, people really wanted those, and when stock started getting thin on the ground they started paying above RRP for them. I don't see the same thing happening with AoS (which is partly due to GW not having the supply chain issues FFG did, but still..)

As I said, there are 4 game stores really close together here, and there's another about half an hour north a couple towns over. It's a fair sized community of gamers here.

Which makes more sense than giving stuff away because he is confident it will sell.