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 Guildsman wrote:
I stopped buying WHFB because of the direction of the game. The crucial moment for me was when I looked at my existing collection and realized that I would've had to spend hundreds of dollars more to field a full-sized, effective army. (Granted, I was building skaven, but still.) The costs were too much.

Age of Sigmarines could've gotten me back in. While I sold most of my armies, I kept the fun stuff, like my doomwheel, and my character models. If I could've played a decent skirmish game with my collection, plus one or two new boxes, I'd have tried it, especially with free rules.

Instead of a decent skirmish game, we got Age of Sigmarines.

Pretty sure you'd have no problems playing a decent game of AoS using you collection...

AOS will not be the final nail, that will only happen the day that GW puts literally all the eggs in 40k, they have been doing it more and more and thats the reason other systems are obsolete in therms of sales at GW. The extremely accelerated rate of 40k new releases is IMO killing it.

So I hope AOS diversifies GW offers and 40k gets a bit of space to regroup from the avalanche of dexes. If AOS fails GW will go for moar 40k than ever, problem is they cannot screw it up because that would actually be their final nail.

Thing is I do not hope that GW fails because that would mean lots of good people would lose their jobs and thats not silly toys IP issues, its actually families lives.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

In my local group it was the rules that drove the bulk of us to Kings of War.

One of the players went and bought several sets of Islands of Blood and threw the rules away - he plays elves in Kings of War, and is actually likely to buy a few more IoB sets if he can get them cheap on eBay.

Pretty much everyone else is using their old Warhammer armies - though there is a new Mantic Orc army being built, and I have a crap ton of Mantic Dwarfs. (As well as a big pile of Mantic Orcs, which I am mostly using for RPGs at the moment, though my good lady has played them as an army.)

So, for a lot of us, yes, it is because we do not like the way the direction that Fantasy was going - and AoS only confirmed a decision made with eighth edition.

As for not liking change... we all piled onto a new game system, and I was one of the few that had tried it before we made the jump. (Those few of us were fairly persuasive.).

A third category uses a big old pile of minis from every which where - in part because Mantic is willing to allow this, even in official tourneys. (One of these centuries there may even be a local tourney....)

This includes newcomers that had never played Warhammer. (Though most of them had played Mordheim.)

I am afraid that eighth edition made leaving Warhammer all too easy.

The Auld Grump

I dunno what the business model is though: if people are buying Isle of Blood (which is a great model value) and other GW models, plus their old models, to play Kings of War, how does Manti make money? O.o

Yes, it's mindshare, but it's not marketshare (expressed in dollars), and it contributes little to the bottom line.

Out of the 3 hobby shops I frequent, only one carries a decent amount of KoW, and it's tucked so far in a back cubbyhole that it's nigh impossible to wander into. The inventory is horribly stagnant. They sell more Deadzone than anything else from Mantic, I think -- and the landing pad, that people use as a proxy for a non-imperium Skyshield.

I've never played WHFB, and never intended to, so I can't speak as to what 8e did to it as a game. I do know that even in 7e, the people who played it never had the "I must buy each new release for my faction" mentality that 40k players often have the mentality of.

 NAVARRO wrote:
AOS will not be the final nail, that will only happen the day that GW puts literally all the eggs in 40k, they have been doing it more and more and thats the reason other systems are obsolete in therms of sales at GW. The extremely accelerated rate of 40k new releases is IMO killing it.

So I hope AOS diversifies GW offers and 40k gets a bit of space to regroup from the avalanche of dexes. If AOS fails GW will go for moar 40k than ever, problem is they cannot screw it up because that would actually be their final nail.

Thing is I do not hope that GW fails because that would mean lots of good people would lose their jobs and thats not silly toys IP issues, its actually families lives.

How about hoping for a major change in leadership for the company, then?

I honestly do not believe that the IP is as attractive as GW thinks that it is - and that if GW sinks then it will leave fewer and smaller ripples than they believe.

But that it was worth more ten years ago than it is today - the longer it is being driven into the ground, the less the IP is worth.

The new round of renaming everything in their IP is... not going to help with name recognition.

I do not hope of a Hasbro buyout - I think that ship has sailed, if it was ever headed to port to begin with.

The Auld Grump

Mymearan wrote:

 Guildsman wrote:
I stopped buying WHFB because of the direction of the game. The crucial moment for me was when I looked at my existing collection and realized that I would've had to spend hundreds of dollars more to field a full-sized, effective army. (Granted, I was building skaven, but still.) The costs were too much.

Age of Sigmarines could've gotten me back in. While I sold most of my armies, I kept the fun stuff, like my doomwheel, and my character models. If I could've played a decent skirmish game with my collection, plus one or two new boxes, I'd have tried it, especially with free rules.

Instead of a decent skirmish game, we got Age of Sigmarines.

Pretty sure you'd have no problems playing a decent game of AoS using you collection...

In actuality, Guildsman, you'd have a much easier time playing AoS than anything else. And before you dump on the rules, try them out. They're free, after all. As a skirmisher, it was more fun than we expected. One great thing about those rules being so simple is that they are very easy to learn -- which is a boon for a *secondary* game.

 Talys wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

In my local group it was the rules that drove the bulk of us to Kings of War.

One of the players went and bought several sets of Islands of Blood and threw the rules away - he plays elves in Kings of War, and is actually likely to buy a few more IoB sets if he can get them cheap on eBay.

Pretty much everyone else is using their old Warhammer armies - though there is a new Mantic Orc army being built, and I have a crap ton of Mantic Dwarfs. (As well as a big pile of Mantic Orcs, which I am mostly using for RPGs at the moment, though my good lady has played them as an army.)

So, for a lot of us, yes, it is because we do not like the way the direction that Fantasy was going - and AoS only confirmed a decision made with eighth edition.

As for not liking change... we all piled onto a new game system, and I was one of the few that had tried it before we made the jump. (Those few of us were fairly persuasive.).

A third category uses a big old pile of minis from every which where - in part because Mantic is willing to allow this, even in official tourneys. (One of these centuries there may even be a local tourney....)

This includes newcomers that had never played Warhammer. (Though most of them had played Mordheim.)

I am afraid that eighth edition made leaving Warhammer all too easy.

The Auld Grump

I dunno what the business model is though: if people are buying Isle of Blood (which is a great model value) and other GW models, plus their old models, to play Kings of War, how does Mantic make money? O.o

Yes, it's mindshare, but it's not marketshare (expressed in dollars), and it contributes little to the bottom line.

Out of the 3 hobby shops I frequent, only one carries a decent amount of KoW, and it's tucked so far in a back cubbyhole that it's nigh impossible to wander into. The inventory is horribly stagnant. They sell more Deadzone than anything else from Mantic, I think -- and the landing pad, that people use as a proxy for a non-imperium Skyshield.

I've never played WHFB, and never intended to, so I can't speak as to what 8e did to it as a game. I do know that even in 7e, the people who played it never had the "I must buy each new release for my faction" mentality that 40k players often have the mentality of.

Warhammer 8th increased the importance of random chance - which hurt in regards to a group of players that, as a whole, prefer a tactical game to a game of chance.

I buy Mantic models - for some lines I prefer the Mantic models to their GW equivalent. (Ogres, undead, and orcs.) Some are pretty much equal (dwarfs).

But most of the local group are buying through mail order, or are special ordering through the friendly, but not so local, game store. We play at each other's houses, not in the store.

Mantic's rules are vastly superior, in my opinion*, but their minis... I think that GW models have wider appeal. (The exception has been the undead - there were several Mantic undead armies in use for Warhammer, long before Kings of War was even on the drawing board.)

The thinking is that if you like the rules then you will at least consider the minis - and it is happening, though slowly.

I like the Mantic elves - they do not look like humans wearing latex ears - but they were, perhaps, too much of a departure from the GW elves. (Who do look like humans with latex appliances.)

So, one of their early armies was kind of crippled, getting out of the gate. (Bit of irony - I have seen the Mantic elves being used more often for Lord of the Rings than Warhammer or Kings of War.)

As for GW getting the money from IoB... he bought them used on eBay - GW had already gotten their money, but did not make more.

And... I will even admit that the aesthetics on the new terrain for AoS is not horrible - I am about a million times more likely to buy the terrain than any of the miniatures, or the game itself. (Used... on eBay. )

GW makes some very nice terrain.

The Auld Grump

I think that if GW just did a little more advertising they would get a lot more people into the hobby. Now sure what there key selling points would be though...

100$ for 50 plastic toy soldiers that you have to glue and paint yourself!!! *Paint and glue sold separately.

Mymearan wrote:

 Guildsman wrote:
I stopped buying WHFB because of the direction of the game. The crucial moment for me was when I looked at my existing collection and realized that I would've had to spend hundreds of dollars more to field a full-sized, effective army. (Granted, I was building skaven, but still.) The costs were too much.

Age of Sigmarines could've gotten me back in. While I sold most of my armies, I kept the fun stuff, like my doomwheel, and my character models. If I could've played a decent skirmish game with my collection, plus one or two new boxes, I'd have tried it, especially with free rules.

Instead of a decent skirmish game, we got Age of Sigmarines.

Pretty sure you'd have no problems playing a decent game of AoS using you collection...

Let me clarify: I don't think that Age of Sigmar is capable of providing a "decent" game. Regardless of my model collection, I don't believe that I could have an enjoyable game with this system.

Answer me this: how much of an army do I have? How much is my army worth? What would be a fair match-up?

Instead of a decent skirmish game, we got the simplistic, error-ridden, balance-free mess that is Age of Sigmarines.

 Talys wrote:


In actuality, Guildsman, you'd have a much easier time playing AoS than anything else. And before you dump on the rules, try them out. They're free, after all. As a skirmisher, it was more fun than we expected. One great thing about those rules being so simple is that they are very easy to learn -- which is a boon for a *secondary* game.

Plenty other games with free and better rules; ones that are actual games and not pretend time. If you play a game with actually satisfactory core rules, you wouldn't particularly want or need a secondary game as you'll be busy perfecting the art of the primary.

YMMV, but I still stand by no one would be defending AoS if it had an $85 BRB buy-in.

 TheKbob wrote:

 Talys wrote:


In actuality, Guildsman, you'd have a much easier time playing AoS than anything else. And before you dump on the rules, try them out. They're free, after all. As a skirmisher, it was more fun than we expected. One great thing about those rules being so simple is that they are very easy to learn -- which is a boon for a *secondary* game.

Plenty other games with free and better rules; ones that are actual games and not pretend time. If you play a game with actually satisfactory core rules, you wouldn't particularly want or need a secondary game as you'll be busy perfecting the art of the primary.

YMMV, but I still stand by no one would be defending AoS if it had an $85 BRB buy-in.

Actually, that's not true. I want a primary game that is high model count scifi. As a secondary game, I don't want high model count (because there is only one game that I care to own thousands of miniatures for). Also, for secondary games, the aesthetic doesn't have to he my favorite (I would prefer for it to beck different) and the genre can be different too.

I don't believe that one game system can handle all of the type of models 40k has at its popular game sizes, plus only the types of models that Infinity uses at its model sizes. And, be fun in both.

For my other games, of which I'm happy to have a dozens of, I'd like to have about 20-50 infantry-mostly miniatures each (keep in mind, collectively, that's still a 500+ model collection). I don't want to have to read a 50-100 page rulebook for most of those, though (I just won't).

If you think that there is a game system that can work with everything from jets, tanks, magic, infantry and transports in 100 model games AND work as an infantry skirmisher, please let me know. Ironically, the closest to that is 40k with Kill Team for small games.

 TheKbob wrote:

 Talys wrote:


In actuality, Guildsman, you'd have a much easier time playing AoS than anything else. And before you dump on the rules, try them out. They're free, after all. As a skirmisher, it was more fun than we expected. One great thing about those rules being so simple is that they are very easy to learn -- which is a boon for a *secondary* game.

Plenty other games with free and better rules; ones that are actual games and not pretend time. If you play a game with actually satisfactory core rules, you wouldn't particularly want or need a secondary game as you'll be busy perfecting the art of the primary.

YMMV, but I still stand by no one would be defending AoS if it had an $85 BRB buy-in.

I very very much like to play 40k. It's my "primary game", if you will. I also play WMH, because its not the same. Just because I like one, it does not preclude me from liking others. Indeed, focusing all of ones energy on a single game is a really good way to "burn out" on it. I played WoW from release until mid-Cataclysm regularly (3 nights of raiding a week, plus more). I got tired of doing the same thing over and over and over and... well, you get the point. So now, when I play video games (which is admittedly getting more and more rare these days) I play a few different ones. Because they're different. People like different things, and everyone has different reasons for liking them.

And let's be real. ALL the games you're playing are "pretend time". Don't try and church it up, Dirt

omg!!! the new winged units are da bomb!!
the units look similar to those spartan style terminators
but im not such a fan of the new chaos models

No. I enjoy the hobby & warhammer 40k is the only universe that interests me in the miniature war gaming category.

AoS isn't the final nail, but it is approaching "The End Times".

Is it me or has the sideways mention of the Death of the Emperor edging closer and closer in the various 40K books?

When we see them unleash the "End Times" for 40K, we'll know then that GW has lost their final marble. They will end up not only nuking their current 40K, but Forgeworld's 30K modeling universe as well.

And THAT will be the end of GW.

everytime I look at that ugly-as-hell FantasyMarines... err Sigmarite Miniatures I hope it's the final nail.

But you keep going back for another look...?

 notprop wrote:
But you keep going back for another look...?

Maybe he just keeps running into them.

AoS is hard to evade these days when browsing the favorite tabletopnews websites out there.

 Talys wrote:
If you think that there is a game system that can work with everything from jets, tanks, magic, infantry and transports in 100 model games AND work as an infantry skirmisher, please let me know. Ironically, the closest to that is 40k with Kill Team for small games.

If you drop the magic requirement, then Bolt Action does a pretty good job at scaling from 20 to 200+ mini's.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 keezus wrote:


IMHO, while I think that GW's plastic miniature technology is generally beyond reproach, the competition is rapidly catching up. In a few years, Malifaux may be ready to challenge them for the crown.

I think Malifaux overtook them in terms of quality a while ago, they just aren't big enough to match the release rate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Guildsman wrote:
I stopped buying WHFB because of the direction of the game. The crucial moment for me was when I looked at my existing collection and realized that I would've had to spend hundreds of dollars more to field a full-sized, effective army. (Granted, I was building skaven, but still.) The costs were too much.

I'm the same; I was hoping for Warhammer: Skirmish instead of Warhammer: WTF. I've got enough mini's kicking about for warbands for most factions, but I can't see them getting used like this.

I actually wasn't interested in Warhammer Fantasy until AoS came out. Now I'm fully on board. I really hope that AoS and GW do well.

Man. . . It is depressing to think about all of the games that exist that fulfill the requirements people put forward here, yet are not played because they never got the support of games like WH or 40K.

It is a pity that more isn't done to highlight these games.

MB

They're all commercial projects they live or die by what their creators put into them.

I think you're too easily depressed.

And if and when GW sinks below the horizon... I will not be depressed.

I won't be jubilant, either - I remember when they were a better choice than they are now.

But I will not be depressed.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* As to doing more to promote other games... the thing to do is to do it.
It took one night of playing Kings of War for my entire group to switch to KoW from Warhammer.

Being able to use their own existing armies was a major selling point.

If you don't like AoS, then don't play it! - bring along your existing armies and play Kings of War, an older edition of Warhammer, Hordes of the Things, or even the old Battlesystem game from the eighties.

And get others to play, or at least try, [Insert Game Here].

 Cobra66 wrote:
I think that if GW just did a little more advertising they would get a lot more people into the hobby. Now sure what there key selling points would be though...

100$ for 50 plastic toy soldiers that you have to glue and paint yourself!!! *Paint and glue sold separately.

they are, look at how much people are talking about AoS... remember BAD NEWS SELLS MORE... if anything this is brand advertising (brand awareness) at its finest... its funny a lot of people "hope" a company dies (which I do not, it means hundreds of workers out of work and sculptors and writers etc) but they go about it in a way that actually makes that company more money... for every 100 people who bash GW, 1 will buy their products and as long as there are more people who buy their products than before the more even if there are 10x more of people who bash it the more successful they get... the best way to make GW feel any type of "pain" is to stop talking about it but then I do not want that, I like GW...

watch this

GW IS THE BEST

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

If you don't like AoS, then don't play it! - bring along your existing armies and play Kings of War, an older edition of Warhammer, Hordes of the Things, or even the old Battlesystem game from the eighties.

Isn't HotT out of print? Or have I just not been able to find the company that sells the 2.1 version (that's the latest, right?).

bitethythumb wrote:
for every 100 people who bash GW, 1 will buy their products and as long as there are more people who buy their products than before

Really great math there. And we know from their falling sales number that more people aren't buying their products.

the more even if there are 10x more of people who bash it the more successful they get...

Was that 10 or 100? C'mon, GW needs a ratio to maintain here!

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

If you don't like AoS, then don't play it! - bring along your existing armies and play Kings of War, an older edition of Warhammer, Hordes of the Things, or even the old Battlesystem game from the eighties.

And get others to play, or at least try, [Insert Game Here].

I couldn't agree with both of your sentiments more.

1. If you don't like AoS, play something else.
2. If you do like AoS, you should still try other things.

I'd add that if you just like the AoS models and don't like the rules, buy the models and use other rules, or mix and match and use whatever rules you want. Never have we had so much choice.

On the other hand, if you do like AoS... you should play it and be happy that you're having a good time.

 infinite_array wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

If you don't like AoS, then don't play it! - bring along your existing armies and play Kings of War, an older edition of Warhammer, Hordes of the Things, or even the old Battlesystem game from the eighties.

Isn't HotT out of print? Or have I just not been able to find the company that sells the 2.1 version (that's the latest, right?).

bitethythumb wrote:
for every 100 people who bash GW, 1 will buy their products and as long as there are more people who buy their products than before

Really great math there. And we know from their falling sales number that more people aren't buying their products.

the more even if there are 10x more of people who bash it the more successful they get...

Was that 10 or 100? C'mon, GW needs a ratio to maintain here!

if sales are down that does not mean a company is not making a profit, they just make less... could be multiple factors, could be the economy, as long as GW still makes a profit and covers their costs of production etc GW is succeeding

or in short, DOWNED SALES DOES NOT = NO PROFITS... just means less profits... still profits though

No one is arguing otherwise.

What people are and have been saying is that the downed profits are appearing in spite of price increases, cost cutting measures, rapid releases, 'big gun releases' (Knights, Marine codices, Ad Mech), and that other companies and the hobby industry growing, indicating its not the general economy affecting them.

If you have anything other to add to this conversation besides "They're making money, so everything is fine", please do so, otherwise, we get it.

bitethythumb wrote:

or in short, DOWNED SALES DOES NOT = NO PROFITS... just means less profits... still profits though

'The devil is in the details', as they say.

'We're making profits' isn't the end of the story/discussion...

 Blacksails wrote:
No one is arguing otherwise.

What people are and have been saying is that the downed profits are appearing in spite of price increases, cost cutting measures, rapid releases, 'big gun releases' (Knights, Marine codices, Ad Mech), and that other companies and the hobby industry growing, indicating its not the general economy affecting them.

If you have anything other to add to this conversation besides "They're making money, so everything is fine", please do so, otherwise, we get it.

40k profits are probably rising, but Fantasy and LoTR profits are probably sinking faster. For all we know, those franchises could be *losing* money.

Since AoS is a radical reboot, everything is NOT fine. But it's not the end of the world for GW, either. There are a lot of shades between, 'we're happy' and 'we're bankrupt'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadnight wrote:

bitethythumb wrote:

or in short, DOWNED SALES DOES NOT = NO PROFITS... just means less profits... still profits though

'The devil is in the details', as they say.

'We're making profits' isn't the end of the story/discussion...

The Internet is so much simpler a place when we can reduce things to profit/bankrupt, love/hate, cheap/robbery and perfect/junk