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 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Sheck2 wrote:
If not, I just do not understand this sentiment at all. You are buying their product not their corporate performance.

And GW going bankrupt and losing the IP to WOTC/FFG/etc would produce a better product.

As a GW shareholder, I agree with this sentiment. Except the WoTC part. 4th Edition D&D was an abomination.


And,bluntly, yes, you are buying their corporate behavior when you buy their products. If you don't like what a company does, do not buy their products.

an interesting little back and forth here...

i am not convinced that another company buying GW would automatically result in a better product...
i am a fan of the fluff, even with The Old World blowing up and ushering in the Age of Sigmar, so see no need for a change there...
i see the minis getting better every year, so again, see no need for a change there
i understand people's argument about rules not being up to snuff, with typos, bloat, and contradictions, but don't see how a different company handling those duties would guarantee a change that would make people happier...
something about, "be careful what you wish for"...

as to a customer buying into corporate behavior, i can see that...
i have no problem with people choosing to boycott any company whos behavior they don't like...
i do have a problem with people trying to tell me that i am selfish for buying GW books and minis, or that i am being willfully ignorant of their behavior (when we all have access to the same information), instead of just not being bothered enough by it to stop buying the books and minis that i enjoy so much...
it is compounded when those people rail against GW and call me selfish for buying the products i am happy with the quality of, while at the same time being supporters of companies like Mierce and Battlefoam, whos owners have a horrible track record of dodgy business practices in the community...
something about a pot and a kettle comes to mind...

it is funny how the people on the positive side of the fence are happy to let others have their opinion, while the guys on the negative side of the fence get angry about people being happy with their purhases...
personally, i am just happy that we are all members of this big community of miniatures, and can find joy in the products that we do support, from whichever company you choose...
it's nice to have a comunity that doesn't look at you like you just grew an extra head when you start talking about how awesome Borka is, how much you loved Prospero Burns, or how many hours you spend painting your little toy soldier...

cheers
jah

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Sheck2 wrote:
If not, I just do not understand this sentiment at all. You are buying their product not their corporate performance.

And GW going bankrupt and losing the IP to WOTC/FFG/etc would produce a better product.

As a GW shareholder, I agree with this sentiment. Except the WoTC part. 4th Edition D&D was an abomination.


And,bluntly, yes, you are buying their corporate behavior when you buy their products. If you don't like what a company does, do not buy their products.

I agree DnD4 was an utter abomination. But you know what? WotC noticed the response and they listened, they took notice, and they made sure DnD5 was a much superior product.
I think in a way, DnD4 is precisely why some of us who are appalled at the current state of affairs would like to see WHFB and 40K end up in WotC hands.

 jah-joshua wrote:
it is funny how the people on the positive side of the fence are happy to let others have their opinion, while the guys on the negative side of the fence get angry about people being happy with their purhases...

Seriously?

Have you seen the posts from some of the people on the so-called 'positive' side of the fence?!!

I've seen far more threads locked because 'positive' people start hurling abuse and attacking posters than negative, chiefly I feel because they're arguing a perspective frequently rooted in emotion rather than anything factual and consequently run out of argument a lot sooner.

Despite the label, there's far less emotion on the "hater" side of things and it is those who wish to defend their shinies to the death that are the worst offenders.

@Azreal13: of course i have seen the positive posts...
i have not seen the same vitriol and personal attacks from the positive side...
they are not the ones feeling like they are losing something they love, so seem a lot less inclined to get personal and judgemental...
that is not to say that there are not loonies on both sides of the fence...

we could do this dance all day, but we happen to have different perspectives...
maybe that colors our interpretation of how others post...

for the record, i have not called anyone a hater, or dismissed anyone's unhappiness as blind rage, that i am aware of...
i disagree that those defending their shinies are the worst offenders, but you are welcome to that opinion...
i am of the opinion that here are extremes on both sides of the argument, but i see a lot less judgement on the positive side...

i try to be middle of the road, in that i feel you are all welcome to do as you please...
i will enjoy my hobby regardless...
it does get old being told that i am selfish for enjoying what makes me happy, even though i don't have any desire to do it at the expense of others...
it's a shame that it has to be perceived like that...

cheers
jah

Well, let's just say that the fact you haven't seen them doesn't mean they don't happen frequently, and leave it at that.

Confirmation bias on both sides, really. The N&R thread had plenty of mudslinging and wrongbadfun!!!11!! to go around - from every angle.

Yeah I hope GW die. For a very long time, I wanted GW to turn it around because I feared what would happen if they went down the tube, I figured they'd destroy their games in the process. But with the loss of WHFB, they've already gone too far for my liking so it'd be good if they died sooner rather than later.

Of course I don't think it will happen, they have a lot of shrinkage and destroying of their product lines to go before they actually fold.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bolognesus wrote:
Confirmation bias on both sides, really. The N&R thread had plenty of mudslinging and wrongbadfun!!!11!! to go around - from every angle.

It'd be an interesting social experiment to read through the thread and take note of every time someone made a post that attacked the person/group rather than the actual argument and get a tally

 Bolognesus wrote:

I agree DnD4 was an utter abomination. But you know what? WotC noticed the response and they listened, they took notice, and they made sure DnD5 was a much superior product.
I think in a way, DnD4 is precisely why some of us who are appalled at the current state of affairs would like to see WHFB and 40K end up in WotC hands.

D&D 4th edition was an amazing game and, looking at the technical standpoint, the best role playing game that got published under that name. But, and that's a HUGE but: It is not what their customers wanted. Which hurt them quite a lot, but led to 5th Edition, which was an enormous effort to reclaim those lost customers. Which is, in the end, all that matters: Giving your customer base what it wants.
4th edition was also not, as many people like to claim, a complete failure, but it wasn't has as successful as they had hoped, not by a wide margin and it opened up the market for another publishing house that basically published 3.5 with the serial filed off and ran with it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if exactly the same thing would happen now, with some company trying to make the jump and releasing "Battleaxe Fantasy Strategy Game", the wargame that is WHFB in all but its name.

 jah-joshua wrote:

@Crash: so how about some examples of where people are being a twit, if you want an admission of it???
it would be interesting to see what fits your definition...

Believe it or not, I don't keep in-depth records about things of that nature, and it's really frequent anyway.

 Bolognesus wrote:
Confirmation bias on both sides, really. The N&R thread had plenty of mudslinging and wrongbadfun!!!11!! to go around - from every angle.

No confirmation bias here, there's plenty of "negs" do likewise, I was just wanting to point out that it's not all skipping around on unicorn back on the other side of the fence.

Bolognesus wrote:Confirmation bias on both sides, really. The N&R thread had plenty of mudslinging and wrongbadfun!!!11!! to go around - from every angle.

I find wrongbadfun offensive.

Critical: I don't get how pushing toy soldiers can be fun, how anyone can have the patience to paint miniatures, or why people would spend that much money on a game.

Wrongbadfun: Nobody with a brain over the age of 12 plays with toy soldiers, only rich children paint overpriced miniatures, and anyone playing war games is just wasting away their money and time because there's way better things they can be doing.

Now just replace toy soldiers, miniatures, and war games with Space Marines, GW models, and AoS.

IMO, people should all do and play what they enjoy. If someone has fun playing 30k with their $20,000 army and fill their home with display quality commissioned models, good for them. I would never feel jealous or entitled to the same, or resentful, any more than if I see someone with their own jet.

 Korraz wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:

I agree DnD4 was an utter abomination. But you know what? WotC noticed the response and they listened, they took notice, and they made sure DnD5 was a much superior product.
I think in a way, DnD4 is precisely why some of us who are appalled at the current state of affairs would like to see WHFB and 40K end up in WotC hands.

D&D 4th edition was an amazing game and, looking at the technical standpoint, the best role playing game that got published under that name. But, and that's a HUGE but: It is not what their customers wanted. Which hurt them quite a lot, but led to 5th Edition, which was an enormous effort to reclaim those lost customers. Which is, in the end, all that matters: Giving your customer base what it wants.
4th edition was also not, as many people like to claim, a complete failure, but it wasn't has as successful as they had hoped, not by a wide margin and it opened up the market for another publishing house that basically published 3.5 with the serial filed off and ran with it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if exactly the same thing would happen now, with some company trying to make the jump and releasing "Battleaxe Fantasy Strategy Game", the wargame that is WHFB in all but its name.

You mean Kings of War?

 Bolognesus wrote:
Confirmation bias on both sides, really. The N&R thread had plenty of mudslinging and wrongbadfun!!!11!! to go around - from every angle.

i agree with this, for the most part...

my point is, i can only speak for myself, and i have not engaged mudslinging or wrongbadfun statements, as far as i'm aware...
i am firmly in the "GW minis are my favorite minis to paint" camp, but i have no desire to tell anyone that they are having fun wrong, are selfish for buying things that they like, or call people names...
anyone who does, regardless of which side of the argument they present, is not helping to contribute to a friendly discussion...
as i said earlier, i feel like we are all members of the same community, and should appreciate the things we get to share an interest in...

@Azreal13: sorry, mate...
i meant to say i have not seen the same amount of vitriol and personal attacks from the positive side...
i'm not saying it doesn't happen, but i missed a crucial word in my statement...

@Crash: come on, buddy...
if you are going to call people twits, you should be willing to back it up with some examples...

cheers
jah

 Azreal13 wrote:
Have you seen the posts from some of the people on the so-called 'positive' side of the fence?!!

I've seen far more threads locked because 'positive' people start hurling abuse and attacking posters than negative, chiefly I feel because they're arguing a perspective frequently rooted in emotion rather than anything factual and consequently run out of argument a lot sooner.

Despite the label, there's far less emotion on the "hater" side of things and it is those who wish to defend their shinies to the death that are the worst offenders.

I disagree. People get plenty worked up on both sides of the fence. It just seems more objective and rational when someone shares an opinion with you. Because, after all, you believe that your own position is rational. The posited position seems irrational because you genuinely can't figure out how the other folks can't see the light of day.

In fact, most of what we are talking about is just preference and perspective. Is A better than B? Is A expensive? Is A fun? Is B stupid? An objective observer would simply say, it all depends, and there's no right answer.

I think it's ok for people to get emotional about things they care about. What they should try to do is mot make it personal, and try to understand that other people might have a different opinion. "I think X is stupid" oils way less offensive than, "You are stupid for liking X" -- or implying it.

If someone is happy buying a $30 dice shaker, I may not get it, but I wont call them an idiot, or imply it, either.

Read the whole thread before replying mate..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Worth cross posting from the FW thread, if only because it may inform some people's opinion on their response to the OP...

 jah-joshua wrote:

@Crash: come on, buddy...
if you are going to call people twits, you should be willing to back it up with some examples...

Nope.
Don't need to when it's all over the place.
Besides, why do you care? I never claimed that everyone positive was like that or anything of the sort, which is what you seem to be insinuating (otherwise you wouldn't be pushing this).

 heartserenade wrote:


You mean Kings of War?

We'll see if the lists and KoW2 Rules fit that niche, but I've meant something more along the lines of literally WHFB without the names. KoW is probably too different to simply scoop up the WHFB fans that have been hung out to dry.

@Azreal13: yes, so silly of GW to push their new product...
what the hell are they thinking???
poor Space Marine never gets any love:(...

@Crash: i ask because i was trying to get to your definition of what kind of behavior you would consider making someone a twit...
in the end, it only matters because you wanted Talys to admit that some of the defenders were acting like twits, and i was curious about what qualifies a person for entry into the twit of the year competition...
i did read your post, and did see where you said "some people", not all...
i am not trying to insinuate anything...
i am asking for what kind of behavior fits your categorization...
if you want someone to admit that you are right, they need to know what you are describing...
just saying, "it's everywhere" doesn't help anyone understand your stance...

cheers
jah

As a GW shareholder, I agree with this sentiment. Except the WoTC part. 4th Edition D&D was an abomination.

Did you even play 4th? It was a game built around mechanics and depth in its mechanics. 4th had a grindy start, but abomination is a bit harsh.

Do you play any edition of Warhammer? If so what do you think about it, or your favorite game you play? Once you read/play a game and understand the reasons things are they way they are, and read/play multiple different games, it allows you to compare systems. As a game it makes all Warhammer editions look like a game ment to sell toy soldiers to pre-teens. Some supplements are always better than others, in every game that has them.

4th is a robust game, no shame in liking it. Even if it needed work after launch and they spread it thin here and there. Open Grave covered over alot of the undead flaws.



----
The money issue will still plague AoS. How much money do they expect people to pour in?

I dunno, I think GWs are doing rather well for themselves, not necessarily financially, but from a design standpoint, everything is amazing.

 Korraz wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:


You mean Kings of War?

We'll see if the lists and KoW2 Rules fit that niche, but I've meant something more along the lines of literally WHFB without the names. KoW is probably too different to simply scoop up the WHFB fans that have been hung out to dry.

That's what happening, though. Most of GW armies/minis would be easy to use in Kings of War (in fact, it is encouraged!). Rules are like a simplified version of WHFB. There are tales of how it started: during a drinking session Alessio was dared to make a more streamlined WHFB. I dunno the veracity of that but that story is floating on the web.

 jah-joshua wrote:
@Azreal13: yes, so silly of GW to push their new product...
what the hell are they thinking???
poor Space Marine never gets any love:(...

You either didn't look hard enough at the picture, or the imagery went whistling over you're head.

That's the statue that stood at the gates of GWHQ for however many years (decades?) dumped under the stairs literally in favour of the new shiny.

Out of all places that they could put that statue, under the stairs behind the AoS banners seems like the absolute worst place I can possibly think of, short of between the urinals in the men's bathroom.

If only they'd recently remodelled with a bunch of extra space...

They could've at least put a drape on it so people won't see.

@Az: of course i saw it, that is why i said Space Marine never gets any love...
i figured the sarcasm would be pretty evident...
i guess i need to be more literal...

for all of the complaints, even by a lot of GW fans, that Space Marines get way too much love, i would think that some people would be happy for a change...
or they will just say these are Sigmarines, and it is business as usual...
either way, i am not bothered by the new statue out front...
i think it is good that they are going all in to support the new setting...

@JNC: all the monies!!!

on a serious note, anybody who thought that a box of 5 Sigmarites, that are bigger than a Terminator Marine, would be any less than $50 was always going to be in for a rude awakening...
they could have priced them at $60 like the Blood Angels Assault Terminator squad, so just be glad there is not a banner in the box of Sigmarites, or it would have cost $10 more...

cheers
jah

Two bites at the cherry, fair to say the point has been missed.

i knew you were going to say that, Az...
i got your point...
you made it quite clear with, "That's the statue that stood at the gates of GWHQ for however many years (decades?) dumped under the stairs literally in favour of the new shiny."

honestly, i think the picture is pretty damn funny...

cheers
jah

"on a serious note, anybody who thought that a box of 5 Sigmarites, that are bigger than a Terminator Marine, would be any less than $50 was always going to be in for a rude awakening."

True, but I'll need something more than just Terminators, with different weapons, to keep me interested. It's a slow start. Battlecat isn't my thing, same as SMs riding wolves.

Well, AoS managed to get me to buy $150 worth (at a 20% discount) of Empire stuff, as one of the FLGS was having a sale on their fantasy stock. I'm only another unit away from a 1000 points in KoW, so I'm heading back and hoping they still have that box of Militia/Free Company available.