Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I don't like the mono pose single miniatures either, And the price really? for that price i have 5 valkir close combat guys or 4 multi pose bandai 1:144 robots molded in different color sprues

 slowthar wrote:
I like how people are saying AoS is some great new aesthetic and smart market reaction when all they did was make the good guys in fantasy look like Space Marines and gear the ruleset to children.

You could say that GW jumped the shark, hunh Fonz? lol

RazorMind wrote:

 slowthar wrote:
I like how people are saying AoS is some great new aesthetic and smart market reaction when all they did was make the good guys in fantasy look like Space Marines and gear the ruleset to children.

You could say that GW jumped the shark, hunh Fonz? lol

lol. Well done!

AYYYyyyyy.....

Where the feth is the annual report?

RazorMind wrote:

 slowthar wrote:
I like how people are saying AoS is some great new aesthetic and smart market reaction when all they did was make the good guys in fantasy look like Space Marines and gear the ruleset to children.

You could say that GW jumped the shark, hunh Fonz? lol

Because all of the other wargames aren't for children(and adults)?

 slowthar wrote:
I like how people are saying AoS is some great new aesthetic and smart market reaction when all they did was make the good guys in fantasy look like Space Marines and gear the ruleset to children.

The first part of your statement is such a dramatic oversimplification of a lot of work that went into beautiful sculptures. They are heroic, knightly superhumans -- what would you like them to look like? Plus, you're totally ignoring a whole bunch of kickass (and I do mean awesome) Chaos models.

The second part seems to ignore that a lot of adults who have played AoS have nice things to say about it.

The Chaos models are MEH at BEST dude.

 Talys wrote:

 slowthar wrote:
I like how people are saying AoS is some great new aesthetic and smart market reaction when all they did was make the good guys in fantasy look like Space Marines and gear the ruleset to children.

The first part of your statement is such a dramatic oversimplification of a lot of work that went into beautiful sculptures. They are heroic, knightly superhumans -- what would you like them to look like? Plus, you're totally ignoring a whole bunch of kickass (and I do mean awesome) Chaos models.

The second part seems to ignore that a lot of adults who have played AoS have nice things to say about it.

A lot of adults who have played AoS have bad things to say about it.

I like the chaos models more than the sigmarines but My opinion ne!

 Talys wrote:
They are heroic, knightly superhumans -- what would you like them to look like?

More like Knights than Space Marines? Hell, the first thing I saw of them was a page showing all of the different chapter colour schemes.

They've got pretty much limitless scope to make superhumans, but they just took a Sanguinary guard and replaced the teardrop with a hammer.

I'd have blown the grail knights up by 50% and started from there.

except that there is nothing futuristic in the look of the Sigmarites...
i get that GW is looking to capitalize on the popularity of Space Marines...
i won't deny that...

looking at the actual sculpting, i am seeing the influence of the High Elf Prince Althran, Archaon, Bloodcrusher, and Chaos Knights in the armor plate design of the Sigmarites...
the legs are straight analogs of the HE Prince...
i don't see anything other than a knight when looking at these guys...
there are no panel lines, no tubes, no power armor style boots, no power armor backpacks, no power boxes on the weapons, nothing futuristic...
so, they did not just take a Sanguinary Guard and give him a hammer...
they definitely Fantasy-fied it...

i would not use these guys as Space Marine conversion fodder, but i am a purist when it comes to sculpts...
i would never use the Dreamforge Valkir as SM stand-ins either...
the only thing i could see these Sigmarites working as are Custodes, with a hefty bit of conversion work, which is pretty cool, as i like that the Custodes look more archaic than Space Marines...

of course, the "not Golden Throne" terrain piece previewed in the N&R thread today will only add fuel to the Space Marines in Fantasy argument...

cheers
jah

The Sigmarines are astonishingly similar to Space Marines. They even have the same cross half-circle on their heads that a lot of SMs do. The main different is the lack of the jetpack backpack. I would say modern weapons too but a number of SM models have giant hammers and shieds.

However if that is what people like than GW will do well.

A word on pricing, it has been obvious for years that GW does not price according to production costs and that is because people want to buy official GW models and only GW make them.. You pay a huge premium for official GW models.

And if people will pay those prices then GW will do well.

 jah-joshua wrote:
except that there is nothing futuristic in the look of the Sigmarites...

Whilst I'm not anything of a purist, I'm pretty sure I could drop all of them as-is into a Blood Angel army and no-one would bat an eyelid. Sure there's no guns, cables or jet-packs, but the Sanguinary guard don't have those things either. I'm in work so can't do a side by side comparison though.

If you showed one of them to someone who knew about GW but not AoS, I'm sure most would assume it was a Space Marine.

Of course there will be fine details that make them distinct, but the inspiration seems pretty obvious.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

Spoiler:

A lot of adults who have played AoS have bad things to say about it.

I like the chaos models more than the sigmarines but My opinion ne!

Yeah, it's ALL opinion -- well, except I think, the technical adeptness of making multiple-piece plastic models that fit perfectly together (whether or not you like what they look like assembled).

The point that there are adults who have played AoS that like it was in response to rules being "only for children". But more broadly, it doesn't matter if a lot of people hate AoS -- as long as there are fans that will buy it, spend money on it, and continue to invest in it, the game will thrive.

It's really no different than WMH: lots of people dislike the game, and lots of people dislike the aesthetic. But enough people like it that it does really well. Will AoS have enough people to like it a lot? I can't answer that, but if you look at the AoS GD thread at the people who have actually tried the game, there are quite a lot more people that enjoyed themselves than the opposite. Whether this translates into more than Fantasy Battle 2014 sales, I doubt even GW can even guess yet. We'll get some hint in December 2015, and more broadly in 2016 and 2017 -- both in the financials, but also the release cadence.

If AoS does well, expect there to be a lot more fantasy drops; if not, expect the 2014 thing, where most of it is 40k, and Fantasy pops up here and there.

Personally, I'm really looking forward to campaign boxes -- as long as there are models! I would be very happy to buy 4 campaign boxes a year (one a quarter), each with about 20-30 models of 2 factions, for about $125USD. That would be enough models to start the faction, but also just short of what you'll want to play, encouraging some sales if you want to stick with one of them. I'd be fine if they mixed in fantasy re-releases with the occasional new model, too, as long as it all made sense from a playability perspective.

 Talys wrote:
[But more broadly, it doesn't matter if a lot of people hate AoS -- as long as there are fans that will buy it, spend money on it, and continue to invest in it, the game will thrive.

Yes it does matter especially if those people are your potential consumers.

 notprop wrote:

RazorMind wrote:

 slowthar wrote:
I like how people are saying AoS is some great new aesthetic and smart market reaction when all they did was make the good guys in fantasy look like Space Marines and gear the ruleset to children.

You could say that GW jumped the shark, hunh Fonz? lol

Because all of the other wargames aren't for children(and adults)?

I'm finding the whole "It's rubbish, it's for kids!" argument a bit baffling. I got my first WHFB box set when I was 11/12 years old. I imagine many other gamers did. Now we're in our 30's, and it's not for kids anymore?

To think that WHFB was some high intellect strategy game only for Serious Adults is rose-tinted at best. Move, shoot, magic then Melee and magic for 4 hours.

I'll give AoS a go, but I'll wait to see what happens with the new model releases before I jump in and throw them any more money




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 heartserenade wrote:

 Talys wrote:
[But more broadly, it doesn't matter if a lot of people hate AoS -- as long as there are fans that will buy it, spend money on it, and continue to invest in it, the game will thrive.

Yes it does matter especially if those people are your potential consumers.

Not everyone has to like it, just enough that it keeps going.

Herzlos wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:
except that there is nothing futuristic in the look of the Sigmarites...

Whilst I'm not anything of a purist, I'm pretty sure I could drop all of them as-is into a Blood Angel army and no-one would bat an eyelid. Sure there's no guns, cables or jet-packs, but the Sanguinary guard don't have those things either. I'm in work so can't do a side by side comparison though.

If you showed one of them to someone who knew about GW but not AoS, I'm sure most would assume it was a Space Marine.

Of course there will be fine details that make them distinct, but the inspiration seems pretty obvious.

i am painting a Sanguinary Guard mini right now, and i can tell you that he has little power cables at the knees, ankles, helmet, and behind the neck...
there are access panel lines on the upper thighs, and the design of the leg armor is completely different...
they have wrist mounted guns, and have jump packs, plus the axes have power boxes like every other power axe...

all that aside, i am not arguing that the inspiration isn't there, but they are a far cry from Space Marine analogs in my book...
i would not use them for Marines, because the arms and legs don't have the same Sci-Fi look as Marine sculpts, but i would use them for Custodes after a good bit of converting...
as-is, no way...
way too Fantasy looking for my 40K tastes...

cheers
jah

 monders wrote:


Not everyone has to like it, just enough that it keeps going.

Not everyone, no. Question is: is it enough? If you would notice there's a lot of negative feedback from hobbyists with regards to AoS. I don't remember any release from other companies with this much vitriol. I think only the Finecast fiasco can top this, off the top of my head.



Only time will tell, I guess. But usually it's not stellar if you've managed to piss off quite a large number of your consumber base.

 heartserenade wrote:

 monders wrote:


Not everyone has to like it, just enough that it keeps going.

Not everyone, no. Question is: is it enough? If you would notice there's a lot of negative feedback from hobbyists with regards to AoS. I don't remember any release from other companies with this much vitriol. I think only the Finecast fiasco can top this, off the top of my head.

Only time will tell, I guess. But usually it's not stellar if you've managed to piss off quite a large number of your consumber base.

That's true, indeed.

I don't think GW have pushed a product quite like they have AoS in some time though.

The vast majority of vitriol seems to be coming from scorned players on forums. Early thoughts from those less invested in the old system seem to be "Give it a go, it's fun".

As you rightly point out, it's early days and could go either way. Fingers crossed it gains some traction and The Old World wasn't junked for nothing.

 jah-joshua wrote:
except that there is nothing futuristic in the look of the Sigmarites...

I disagree, I think they look quite futuristic. They certainly don't look like anything that could fit in any historic period and they have a bulkiness that makes it look to me like the armour is made from some composite rather than from metal. Otherwise the dudes under the armour are just hugely bulky.... which again to me gives more of a futuristic feel.

I'm not trying to say you're wrong in thinking they don't look futuristic, you can think whatever you want, but to me they have more of an air of futuristic/sci-fi rather than historic/fantasy.

 monders wrote:

I'm finding the whole "It's rubbish, it's for kids!" argument a bit baffling. I got my first WHFB box set when I was 11/12 years old. I imagine many other gamers did. Now we're in our 30's, and it's not for kids anymore?

The thing is you can have an adults game that kids can play (like Monopoly or Risk) and both can enjoy, or you can have a kids game that adults can play (like snap) and adults get quickly bored of. Part of Warhammers appeal when I was a kid was that it was a game for adults. Now I'm an adult, it still has that appeal. I don't see it working the other way round for AoS. Especially if I can get my simple game fix for less from pretty much any supermarket or large chain store these days.

A game being played by kids doesn't make it a kids game. A game aimed at kids is.

 jah-joshua wrote:

i am painting a Sanguinary Guard mini right now, and i can tell you that he has little power cables at the knees, ankles, helmet, and behind the neck...
there are access panel lines on the upper thighs, and the design of the leg armor is completely different...
they have wrist mounted guns, and have jump packs, plus the axes have power boxes like every other power axe...

Are these differences obvious to the average gamer from 3ft+ away? Or the uninitiated?

Like I said, I'm not an expert, but to me they look pretty much interchangeable, and I can't imagine anyone across the table from me objecting to their use in either game.

@Skink:
the legs are bigger versions of this guy's:

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Prince-Althran

the torsos are Greco-Roman inspired, and the faces are like Roman cavalry officers and Greco-Roman death masks...
the feet are pure medieval sabaton style vs. the power armor rounded boot...
the grieves are way more medieval than the sloping Marine style...
the knees are rimmed like Archaon's armor vs. the rounded Marine knee...
and so on...

if anyone wants to use the Sigmarites as Marines, that's cool...
i'm just not seeing the direct port that others are trying to call it...
it's like when people make Space Wolves with Chaos Warriors, and don't carve away the leather boot and sculpt proper power armor style boots...
it just looks way too Fantasy for my 40K tastes...
i like the idea, but a lot of sculpting/conversion work is needed to really capture the Sci-Fi look, in my opinion...

cheers
jah




Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Herzlos: you are right, i am sure nobody would object to you using Eternals in 40K, and the average gamer may not care that your guys dont have guns on the model...

for a guy like me, who eats, sleeps, and breathes the tiny details of miniatures, it is a whole different story, which is why i say i can't argue the idea that the Eternals are designed to capitalize on SM popularity, but they are not, and never will be straight ports of Space Marines to my eye...

i do hope that they sell as well as the Marines for GW's sake...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:

i'm just not seeing the direct port that others are trying to call it...

Except no one's calling it a direct port in the way that you're apparently interpreting it. Yes, we're aware they don't have guns, backpacks, or the little sci-fi details like cabling in between the armor plates and stuff. I don't think anyone is really trying to argue that they are literally Space Marines ported into a Fantasy setting, only that there are a hell of a lot of similarities between them...even beyond the models themselves, like the fact that they're superhumans made by an emperor god that are organized into brotherhoods/chapters and deployed onto the battlefield from the skies.

And even you said you could see the inspiration, so it must be pretty clear what GW was going for here and not just to us. The Stormcast Eternals are, without a doubt, a Fantasy analogue for GW's Space Marines, and they don't have to be 100% exactly the same for that to be true, just similar enough.

It's an obvious exaggeration to say that you could use the models in 40k unconverted and no one would know the difference. Of course you can't do that any more than you could stick a backpack on a WHF Chaos Warrior and think it makes him a Chaos Space Marine or a Space Wolf.

I love space marines but I am not too keen on the sigmarites,
I do no equate the two either.

Almost any human in chunky armour can look pretty much like a type of space marine at this point, there have been so many variations of power armour up to now, including some pretty ornate ones.

I much prefer the Daemons here, I never really got the grumbles about too many skulls on Khorne models either, its like the only place where too many skulls is ok I reckon, skulls for the skull throne and all that.

@Sid: this was what got me going on the "not a direct port" tangent...

Herzlos wrote:
...they just took a Sanguinary guard and replaced the teardrop with a hammer.

unfortunately, i have seen plenty of conversions where people have just put a CSM backpack on the Fantasy Juggerlord, and called it a CSM...
to me, it is important to use Thunderwolf rider legs, power armour arms, torso, backpack, and 40K weapons when making a CSM Juggerlord...

as a mini guy, i appreciate all of the little details, and it is important to me to point out the Fantasy elements of the sculpts, rather than just brush them off as "Sigmarines"...
i am even more passionate about sculpts than fiction and art, so when someone says that these sculpts are "astonishingly similar" to Space Marines, as Killkrazy did, i have to disagree, and point out what i see...
when Skink says he doesn't see any historical or Fantasy influence, again i have to disagree, and point out what i am seeing...

i respect you, and all three of these guys i've quoted here, so a little difference of opinion is not a big deal...
i hope you guys feel the same about my opinion...

cheers
jah

To answer the OP: I'm afraid that the AoS debacle has pushed me right into the "kinda hoping for the downfall of GW" camp. Only kinda mind you, since they indeed still produce great models and most stuff from Forgeworld is great (it would be nice if FW would be split off completely from GW proper).

Now, short term, any downfall of GW is a really bad thing. Peoples jobs would be threatened and GW games still provide a sort of path of least resistance for wargaming since they are very common, making them an easy entry point.

Long term however; AoS has finally made me convinced that current GW (be it due to the CEO, bean counters, a culture of insulation or whatever) is not equipped to handle the IP that I know and love. If someone else would pick the IP up then it might get worse (or shelved completely) but I have a hard time seeing it being handled any way other than more competently.

Instead of people desperately clinging to increasingly faulty and incomplete GW gamesystems, trying to remod them; more or less creating whole new systems themselves. I hope AoS finally shakes people up and get them to try out systems that work as is and use their energy to create scenarios etc. instead.

PS.
Could anyone correct the damn typo in the thread's title!?

As long as we respect each others opinions we're all good

I've got no problem with your view either, but I'm more a game/fluff guy and my knowledge/interest in the sculpt intricacies is nowhere near yours.

I tend to have separate gaming pieces (like these) to painting/display pieces (like the Kabuki 54mms, or Kingdom Death). I suck at painting both

Herzlos wrote:

The thing is you can have an adults game that kids can play (like Monopoly or Risk) and both can enjoy, or you can have a kids game that adults can play (like snap) and adults get quickly bored of. Part of Warhammers appeal when I was a kid was that it was a game for adults. Now I'm an adult, it still has that appeal. I don't see it working the other way round for AoS. Especially if I can get my simple game fix for less from pretty much any supermarket or large chain store these days.

A game being played by kids doesn't make it a kids game. A game aimed at kids is.

I don't think it was ever a game for adults. It has always been firmly aimed at the 12+/tween crowd.

I would think a large portion of those who dislike AoS because it's new and NOT WHFB grew up with Fantasy - were there when it started, all big flashy boxed starter sets, army books, the works! And so they see it as theirs, and as a grown up past time far beyond the reach of mere children.

Look at all the crap that Jar Jar Binks got from the old Star Wars fans, but these same people can't enough of Wookies and Ewoks. "They've ruined Star Wars! It isn't the same! It's nonsense for kids!" Er yes, just like Star Wars was!

Personally, I'm exactly the same with anything I liked from the 80s getting a reboot



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
As long as we respect each others opinions we're all good

QFT - and Exalted

Since all opinions are being respected here....

Honestly, I think AoS is a last ditch attempt to save Warhammer Fantasy (and clearly isn't doing too well). However GW its self isn't going anywhere, 40K provides enough to keep them floating. Also, since they got that new CEO, I've seen some minor improvements to their business model.

Fantasy will die, 40K will keep them going with its ever-growing popularity lately, so in sort without me explaining my thoughts in a huge 3 paragraph text; GW is living, and living well. And will for time to come.

 IAmX wrote:

Also, since they got that new CEO, I've seen some minor improvements to their business model.

The old CEO is still the chairman, and the new CEO was already a board member, if I'm remembering correctly.

In other words, the top leadership only moved some titles around. The same people are making the same decisions at the top for the same reasons as before.