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2015/07/19 22:00:26
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Talys wrote: I'm sorry, but I did not say that, I wanted to see multicolored parts, Agnosto. I will eat my words and gift you a nice model if I said that anywhere. 2 colors on the same part never even came up until Insaniak brought it up in the quoted section below.
These are the questions I'd like to have answered -- does Bandai have better technology. .
And the answer is 'Yes, they do'.
The fact that Gundam models come pre-coloured is only half of it - Some of them come pre-coloured with multiple colours on the same part.
That's something that is made possible through the use of sliding-core moulds, which also allow for detail in more than just the standard 2 dimensions that we're all used to from plastic wargaming models. It's the same technology that allows weapons to come with barrels in one piece without having to drill them out, and for detail on all sides of a model without having to break a part into multiple pieces for each facing.
That's technology that GW have only just recently started playing with, and that is unlikely to be part of their standard production any time soon... and that Gundam models have had used on them for over a decade.
You know how GW have always said that certain things are impossible to do in plastic because of undercuts? It's a lie. Those things are only impossible to do in plastic because GW are using 30-year-old technology to make their moulds.
Like I said, I'm not making a judgment, either way. I'm keeping an open mind, and I'll actually buy a model, and examine it to judge for myself (and share photos so that others can see). Nobody has provided a decent picture of a sprue or a part like what you've described, and what's on the internet doesn't look exciting at all.
Since I'm painting the model, colored plastic is of no value. Arguably, it's of NEGATIVE value, because colored airbrush primer isn't opaque with some colors (like red), and red on yellow or red on blue or red on red come out differently (plus priming the over the same color, like red on red, is awful, since you can't tell what you've missed). The coolest thing in the pictured sprues describing what you're saying is a clear plastic piece beside a colored sprue. But seriously, how important is that to me? Why would I care if it came on separate sprue?
I have not seen a sprue with a single piece rifle with the barrel drilled out. That would excite me!
To extrapolate that: if a model came with hollowed out sections and no joined pieces (in other words, no front/back, left/right assembles, and every pieces separate except where articulation requires it to be) -- my mind would be blown away. In fact, my mind would be blown away with a monopose Imperial Knight that was single pose, and "no assembly required"
I could have sworn you asked to see sprue pics of the variety that Insaniak was talking about but it doesn't appear to be there now. Whatever, as I said, I really don't care. I could tell you that I've seen what Insaniak is talking about but that's not proof and a quick, cursory look on the interwebs just shows top-down pics of sprues so there's no proof there either as people don't normally take end-on pics of sprues.
I'll just say, believe what you want, at the end of the day it doesn't affect me and we can both go on our merry way.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
2015/07/19 22:03:09
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Since I'm painting the model, colored plastic is of no value.
Whether or not it is of value to you has no bearing on whether or not it is more advanced technology.
A nuclear submarine is more advanced technology than my bicycle. The fact that I don't want to ride to work in a nuclear submarine doesnt change that fact.
But, again , the colours aren't the whole story. It's the technology that is involved in doing that multi coloured casting that is the point. It allows you to create detail that is impossible in conventional moulds due to allowing the plastic to be injected on multiple stages.
2015/07/19 22:04:09
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Talys, you asked for sprues that showed superior tech.
When someone shows you a sprue which features multiple colours on the same sprue, including, it appears, multiple colours on the same piece, something GW cannot do by all accounts, it isn't good enough?
Wait, goalposts, come back!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/19 22:04:45
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
agnosto wrote: I'll just say, believe what you want, at the end of the day it doesn't affect me and we can both go on our merry way.
I'm not trying to get into a forum knife-fight, buddy I just don't like being told repeatedly that I said something that I didn't. For the record, I got a PM from someone with some pretty cool finished Gundam stuff, which is why I'm going to try to buy one and fiddle with it -- unfortunately, the only store that likely caries it is pretty far from me, so won't be til next week that I can check it out.
2015/07/19 22:05:18
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Henry wrote: I thought pre coloureds were generally considered a big part of the downfall of Rackham. Would GW gain anything with precoloureds?
Prepaints, not the same thing
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Again, if you do both, simple push-fit pre-colored models for casual, non-modellers, and more complex models for "advanced" hobbyists, you broaden your market out-reach. Sure there's an initial investment in the equipment but don't pay dividends for one half and that's a non-issue.
agnosto wrote: I'll just say, believe what you want, at the end of the day it doesn't affect me and we can both go on our merry way.
I'm not trying to get into a forum knife-fight, buddy I just don't like being told repeatedly that I said something that I didn't. For the record, I got a PM from someone with some pretty cool finished Gundam stuff, which is why I'm going to try to buy one and fiddle with it -- unfortunately, the only store that likely caries it is pretty far from me, so won't be til next week that I can check it out.
Not my intention either. Like I said, I don't have a dog in the fight; apologies if I misinterpreted something.
hobbylink Japan has some great stuff (but quite a bit often goes out of stock).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/19 22:08:10
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
2015/07/19 22:17:24
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
4 Mounted, or 6 Foot miniatures from Gripping Beast: £12
That means that 40 mounted or 60 foot comes to £120
And, Fantasy Miniatures from other, similar companies are roughly an equivalent price (Reaper, Iron Wind, Thunderbolt Mountain, etc.).
I got roughly 150 Thunderbolt Mountain elves, and an equivalent number of Heavy Goblin Warriors and Archers for around $750. That was a little less than $3/figure, for what are some of the best sculpted fantasy miniatures ever produced.
Now, I understand that there is a certain aesthetic to GW's products, to which people are attracted.
But they are really being taken advantage of considering the prices being charged for these products.
GW are not Meirce, or one of the other companies who do legitimately high-end miniatures.
Most of the miniatures GW makes are rather clumsy and over-the-top in their detailing and sculpting when compared to even Reaper.
But, I suppose that Stockholm Syndrome is pretty strong when dealing with people who are basically held hostage by a company like GW.
MB
From the websites:
GW Elfin spearmen are $35 for 16 plastic multipart
GW has done colored plastics to appeal to the non-painting boardgame crowd...
2009 Space Hulk being the most recent example...
what they have not done is mix colors on the same sprue...
that looks like some hi-tech wizardry!!!
the thing is, Kirby has shown quite clearly that he doesn't want to broaden appeal to encompass the boardgamers, and non-modelers...
he does not want to lower prices to make the product appeal to a wider audience...
he wants the name and product to have a cache, rather than mass-appeal...
i know that pisses a lot of people off, but that is his schtick...
when he retires, maybe the company philosophy will shift back to the way things were when scratch building was encouraged, WFB armies had smaller units, and kid with a couple of bob in his pocket could buy a blister...
...and maybe the moon is made of cheese...
seriously, times change...
the writing has been on the wall for a long time...
GW is a company that wants you to give them your money on their terms, no question about it...
if anyone wants to abandon ship, and head over to the S.S. Mantic, or jump on the Warmahordes train, i think it is awesome that the option is there...
i would rather see everyone happily painting and gaming, than having internet knife fights, or starting threads about how they would like to see GW die, but people do love their drama...
cheers
jah
Paint like ya got a pair!
Available for commissions.
2015/07/19 23:04:50
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
No, why would I hope that? No matter how poor their rules get or how overpriced their product becomes (both only opinion, of course) if either or both of those factors become too much for me, I would simply stop buying and playing and sell off my armies. No point in hoping for hundreds of people (some of whom I quite like on a personal level) to lose their jobs and livelihood...
2015/07/19 23:37:05
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Lord Corellia wrote: No, why would I hope that? No matter how poor their rules get or how overpriced their product becomes (both only opinion, of course) if either or both of those factors become too much for me, I would simply stop buying and playing and sell off my armies. No point in hoping for hundreds of people (some of whom I quite like on a personal level) to lose their jobs and livelihood...
Thing is, as rough as losing your job is, the UK jobs market is very healthy right now. Just last week the news had interviews with both employers and recruitment agencies all saying that getting hold of good people is getting harder and harder, right across the spectrum of skills.
So, making the basic assumption that most people are in their position on merit *cough*AlanMerret*cough* then now wouldn't be a terrible time for it to happen.
You've also got to think that maybe, should a company go down as a result of a series of bad decisions, then there's a percentage of the employees that probably deserve to lose their jobs.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Lord Corellia wrote: No, why would I hope that? No matter how poor their rules get or how overpriced their product becomes (both only opinion, of course) if either or both of those factors become too much for me, I would simply stop buying and playing and sell off my armies. No point in hoping for hundreds of people (some of whom I quite like on a personal level) to lose their jobs and livelihood...
Thing is, as rough as losing your job is, the UK jobs market is very healthy right now. Just last week the news had interviews with both employers and recruitment agencies all saying that getting hold of good people is getting harder and harder, right across the spectrum of skills.
So, making the basic assumption that most people are in their position on merit *cough*AlanMerret*cough* then now wouldn't be a terrible time for it to happen.
You've also got to think that maybe, should a company go down as a result of a series of bad decisions, then there's a percentage of the employees that probably deserve to lose their jobs.
I have to go with Lord Corellia on this one. It's all well and easy to say just go find a new job. Not so easy to be in the middle of sweating out finding a job with comparable wages and benefits when you have a family and mortgage to worry about, so I will be in the camp that instead of wishing GW goes out of business, that they can use AoS to rekindle their fantasy side of the house and continuously improve their games as time goes on.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/19 23:54:34
2015/07/20 00:00:02
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
The fact is if GW go out of business, they'll have nowhere to look but at themselves. While I'd have every sympathy for all the lower ranking staff, that's mitigated by my feeling that a large number of senior staff would have had it coming.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: All well and easy? I've fething done it mate!
I know of what I speak.
The fact is if GW go out of business, they'll have nowhere to look but at themselves. While I'd have every sympathy for all the lower ranking staff, that's mitigated by my feeling that a large number of senior staff would have had it coming.
Congratulations, then. I have seen several people lose their homes and in some cases, their marriages after losing their jobs. My thoughts, I think parallel yours about company officers who in their arrogance or greed, run a company under. The trouble is, though, that kind usually has their exit strategy well planned and barely feel the sting, if at all.
2015/07/20 00:36:02
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Well, I've no intention of taking the thread off on another pointless tangent but suffice to say I'd suggest you walk a mile in my shoes before you start citing examples of other people that you know who have lost a great deal at me due to circumstances outside of their control.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: Well, I've no intention of taking the thread off on another pointless tangent but suffice to say I'd suggest you walk a mile in my shoes before you start citing examples of other people that you know who have lost a great deal at me due to circumstances outside of their control.
I'm happy for your success, though, and was agreeing with some of your statement. No need to be pissed at nothing.
2015/07/20 00:53:31
Subject: Re:Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Gundam* Seriously, please attempt to spell the subject matter correctly when addressing it.
You're fine to have opinions, but you came in hot declaring it as a fact. Which, the facts don't lie, GW just aren't as creative as they used to be, a lot of their *older* sculpts, are more creative than the crap we have now. If you want proof, look at the Chaos Range.
Look at the evolution of the Pink/Blue horrors of Tzeentch, we had these awesome, freaky and amorphous sculpts for 3rd-4th edition 40K, you even had the Blue horrors trying to rip and tear their way out from inside a Pink Horror. It was truly the stuff of nightmares which is EXACTLY what Tzeentch Daemons *should* be. Now, we have pink monkeys with feathers and ork teeth and beaks... Really? We went from Gothic Horror, to mash up comedy.
The Daemon Prince went from ascended Prince to Saturday morning Cartoon Villain with a slim hourglass figure. Ugh...
Chaos Raptors - went from heavy metal, carrion bird (vulture) type Marines to cartoony, jagged, funky looking models... Kinda turned me off of buying them.
Possessed - Everyone knows the issues with the possessed kit, the fact of only being able to assemble two good looking models is absurd.
Daemonettes - Not the image of deadly beauty they used to be. Especially once they gave them crabclaws... Ugh... I want my rending talons back! Daemonettes were supposed to be elegant beautiful women with daemonic appendages, now they look like women/turkey hermaphrodites. Again, a joke
About the only positive change in the Chaos range in the past 7-8 years has been the Plastic Bloodletters, which actually look like fething daemons! Khorne seems to luck out on stuff like that.
Hailing them as being "a Creative engine" is entirely your opinion, one not popular and doesn't add to the discussion at all.
Actually, the daemonettes everyone loves by Juan Diaz are third generation. The first and second had crab claws and were hideous. They eventually became elegant "beauty". But they started out hideous. GW went back to their roots on this one. The bloodletters are back to their roots as well; just slightly frailer. And the old pink and blue horrors were also more like the current bodies (without beaks and orc mouths). So...yeah. Current chaos lesser daemons are similar to their oldest forms. They just show no similarities to the last metal iteration (which I agree was hands down the best iteration with the exception of Plaguebearers).
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.
2015/07/20 01:01:15
Subject: Re:Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Why all the ridiculous hate on these threads? If you don't like it don't buy it. My wife is building my starter set as I write (yes I'm lucky!). These are the nicest models I've ever seen! Also I'm working with people on here to tweak the rules (kind of fun playing game designer!) just a little bit. I've got a buddy coming over next week to play test with me. So let's see , for 90.00 I got a box of the best models I've ever seen. Having fun working with people here on some rules and points. Getting in games with buddies with new models. For me AOS has been a lot of fun and hope to keep it coming!
Disclaimer: Jervis Johnson and the GW design team are brain dead . However they left a decent framework to build on. TBH after what they've done to 40K I'd rather they do the fluff, models and basic rules. Then leave the rest to the gaming community.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/20 01:03:16
2015/07/20 01:06:01
Subject: Re:Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Haldir wrote: Why all the ridiculous hate on these threads? If you don't like it don't buy it..
Firstly - not hate.
Secondly - "if you don't like it don't buy it" is analogous as an argument as "why are you arguing against gun control, you've not been shot" or "why are you advocating for greater environmental controls, your village hasn't been washed away by a tsunami!"
It is not necessary to experience something to wish to discuss it, have an opinion on it or recognise the issues.
Azreal13 wrote: Well, I've no intention of taking the thread off on another pointless tangent but suffice to say I'd suggest you walk a mile in my shoes before you start citing examples of other people that you know who have lost a great deal at me due to circumstances outside of their control.
I'm happy for your success, though, and was agreeing with some of your statement. No need to be pissed at nothing.
What success? I'm still dealing with elements of the fallout.
Like I say, don't make assumptions, I'm not pissed but I'm not going to accept second hand anecdotes from someone on a subject I've experienced myself firsthand. I knew exactly what I was saying, and stand by it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/20 01:09:18
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Gentlemen , something is wrong here if we're mentioning gun control , environmental issues and toy soldiers...... I didn't mean to offend anyone , but I do feel the anti GW rankings are a bit overboard. But hey everyone is entitled to express themselves and how they feel. No offense was meant. But hey if you are unhappy why are you venting here ? I sent a whole page email to GW lambasting how in a matter of days people here can design a better points system than their whole staff! Everyone unhappy should do the same!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/20 01:23:05
2015/07/20 01:25:40
Subject: Re:Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Talys, I'm going to be digging out my RG Exia kit tonight just to take pictures for you, I will be posting them later to show some of the better detail on the kit. And yes, it is good. I'll also be mentioning the hands on the models, were molded as two parts, but the fingers are wonderful and articulate.
2015/07/20 01:35:03
Subject: Re:Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
I'm happy for your success, though, and was agreeing with some of your statement. No need to be pissed at nothing.
"What success? I'm still dealing with elements of the fallout.
Like I say, don't make assumptions, I'm not pissed but I'm not going to accept second hand anecdotes from someone on a subject I've experienced myself firsthand. I knew exactly what I was saying, and stand by it."
To tell the truth, I've been through that fire myself, so don't assume I don't know what I'm talking about. Why you would wish this on someone else knowing what it is like. Wow.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/20 01:55:28
2015/07/20 01:55:21
Subject: Re:Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Haldir wrote: Yes agreed , but expressing your displeasure could be better served by emailing. GW directly. The more emails they receive the better. Right?
Us players in NZ and AUS organized a mailer late last year. We all got the same automated reply from GW saying the pricing is good/necessary for the company.
Fast forward to now and they are trying to sell us a dice shaker for 88 dollars.
There was also a pretty huge GW change petition not long after that got heaps of signatures.
Now they are trying to sell me 3 inches of metal for 65 dollars and trying to sell me a half assed game with 25 dollar basic sigmarines.
I would love it if GW listened to any of their customers, but I hear they pride themselves in not listening.
In short, tried your way and failed. Anyway complaining on the internet is how our club stopped GW games and played/purchased worthwhile games. So far more good has come from the complainers than talking to GW so why not continue that instead.
Suck, but oh well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/20 02:00:01
2015/07/20 02:01:14
Subject: Re:Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Haldir wrote: Yes agreed , but expressing your displeasure could be better served by emailing. GW directly. The more emails they receive the better. Right?
Us players in NZ and AUS organized a mailer late last year. We all got the same automated reply from GW saying the pricing is good/necessary for the company.
Fast forward to now and they are trying to sell us a dice shaker for 88 dollars.
There was also a pretty huge GW change petition not long after that got heaps of signatures.
Now they are trying to sell me 3 inches of metal for 65 dollars and trying to sell me a half assed game with 25 dollar basic sigmarines.
I would love it if GW listened to any of their customers, but I hear they pride themselves in not listening.
In short, tried your way and failed. Anyway complaining on the internet is how our club stopped GW games and played/purchased worthwhile games. So far more good has come from the complainers than talking to GW so why not continue that instead.
Suck, but oh well.
What did the reply say?
2015/07/20 02:06:49
Subject: Re:Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Haldir wrote: Yes agreed , but expressing your displeasure could be better served by emailing. GW directly. The more emails they receive the better. Right?
Us players in NZ and AUS organized a mailer late last year. We all got the same automated reply from GW saying the pricing is good/necessary for the company.
Fast forward to now and they are trying to sell us a dice shaker for 88 dollars.
There was also a pretty huge GW change petition not long after that got heaps of signatures.
Now they are trying to sell me 3 inches of metal for 65 dollars and trying to sell me a half assed game with 25 dollar basic sigmarines.
I would love it if GW listened to any of their customers, but I hear they pride themselves in not listening.
In short, tried your way and failed. Anyway complaining on the internet is how our club stopped GW games and played/purchased worthwhile games. So far more good has come from the complainers than talking to GW so why not continue that instead.
Suck, but oh well.
What did the reply say?
Good Morning
Many thanks for your email regarding to Australian prices.
Our prices are set for Australia at the level that ensures we can support our Australian business, including all our Hobby Centres and their staff which recruit and support many happy Hobbyists across the country. If we sold our products at UK prices to Australian customers, we would unfortunately be unable to sustain our operation there. We work hard to protect our employees jobs, the success of our business, and ultimately the health of the Hobby in every country in which we operate.
While I understand that you may be unhappy with our decision, I hope the explanation above is helpful regarding our prices.
Took me a while to find it, but everyone got that reply.
Makes me wonder why they don't just sell from the UK instead. Not many people here seem to order from GW at all but instead go to discounters from the USA or recasts.
Funny, at the bottom of the email they had an add for stronghold assault, the short lived 6th edition book haha.
