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 Quintinus wrote:

 Mordred wrote:

 Quintinus wrote:

 Mordred wrote:
The Dark Angels have never been the auto win army and I don't intend to change that. I purpose some rules and points changes to make the book just a tad more balanced and matched to the always superior Adeptus Astartes codex albeit this as close as we have ever been. Feel free to say I'm crazy or what I suggest is neither viable nor fair.

Here's some further errata for your "balanced and matched" Dark Angels codex.

Land Speeder Vengence and Dark Shroud increase front and side armor to 11, Dark Shroud point cost increased to 105.

Ravenwing Jink: May reroll failed cover saves from Jink. Their cover save may never be better than a 3+.

That's fine on the Darkshroud idk why everyone gets defensive about it though. It doesn't kill anything and if you wanna kill it just run up and punch it with a melta bomb.

Oh great, the old "just shoot it" or "just charge it" tactic.

Yeah after eating Overwatch from every unit within 24" thanks to Ravenshield.

And the jinking everyone cries about surprises me too. And when you jink 2+ or not your shooting becomes garbage for a turn.

Except for the Ravenwing formation where you shoot as normal after turboboosting.

I feel like it all comes down to "I can't remove it in one shooting phase so it's OP" not trying to put words in your mouth it's not a personal attack.

Then why are you giving it Front/Side Armor 11 if you're not supposed to be able to remove it in one shooting phase and if meltabombs can pierce it so easily?

I'm suggesting the 3+ max cover save from jinking due to the fact that there's so little in your way of actually achieving something so overpowered, and to balance out all of your other "errata".

I don't want to turn this into a personal argument but your use of quotations seems on the mean spirited side. Maybe I'm wrong though.
It seems to me your idea of what this eratta was meant to be is different from the truth. This is for fun in my garage and at my local game shop that makes things more interesting for everyone. It's not for abuse in formations of rules lawyering in tournaments. I do this same thing for all armies played in my area. I never tone items down just buff other ones to make them possibly worth taking instead of one autotake.


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Bharring wrote:
An ancient relic forged in a supernovae of a fallen star is s+0 AP3 Blind. And its more ancient than the Imperium.

Being ancient doesn't make it uber.

And Master crafted is practically +1A, which is amazing on an I6 S6 AP2 weapon.

Not to nit pick too much but they are I5 not 6. And I agree ancient does not equal uber; it's the unique meteoric ore that does. I don't know much about the other fluff for the other weapon you mentioned but that sounds a little too silly a backstory for a sword. Did Ward write that or is that a later addition after he left?

Its hardly the only super-special relic that predates the IoM that is substantially worse than what you're asking for.

How many points is he again?

Bharring wrote:
Its hardly the only super-special relic that predates the IoM that is substantially worse than what you're asking for.

How many points is he again?

He is 215pts pretty expensive, no eternal warrior no ap2 except a one shot combiplas. His most remarkable feature which is very good, is his squad wide 4++ from his helmet.

So why should he have better stats than many beatsticks that out cost him, plus his amazing support?

That's the point, he doesn't have better stats than ANY beastick put there, I don't know where your getting that idea.

Ghazy kicks his arse every time.
Grimnar does too
Calgar too
Dante too
Lysander does too
Smashfether does too

Seriously what beastick can he beat and have a better stat line than with str6 ap2?

I think your trolling at this point.

S6AP2?

Asurmen
Fuegan
Non-Smashfether CMs

Compare him to Asurmen. A bit slower, but +1W, +1S. And 4++ for the *entire unit*. For fewer points.

Hey man I don't doubt for a second that asurman deserves a huuuuge buff, all the phoenix lords are ok to awful.

Asurman does have ew so doesn't care about the str6, guard are crushed in assault anyway so that's a moot point, or warboss will take a couple wounds, then I'd the marine with its claw, hive tyrants always fly anyway, dark eldar will die if it gets through the shadow field, but that's the case anyway, eldar... Lol combat, you ain't getting there, tau die to cc anyway so meh, space marines...out classed in cc by nearly every special character due to no ew and they will have articifer armour.

So every army will either outclass Azrael in cc or he would be them anyway without the ap2, all the buff does is give him and the other da characters a chance, not too much to ask.

 Formosa wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
No they are not remotely op, it's a cc weapon, good luck getting to use it, sure it can kill marines, strike at I and str 6, so I'd guard and eldar, relic blade does that for cheaper, can hurt mc easier, yep relic blade can do that too...for cheaper.

1 on one with a space marine chapter master, you get 3++, fnp most likely, eternal warrior, we get str 6 ap2 at I, no eternal warrior, possibly a 3++ and most likely no fnp due to most popular space marine hq use using a thunder hammer.

Op... Not a bleeding chance.

Burning blade: +3s ap2 blind, incandescent (chance to hurt himself) 55pts.

Sword of Secrets: +2s ap2 master crafted 40pts.

Nope. Make it 50, two handed and a relic, fine. Don't compare it to the shield eternal, since it is a weapon where the shield is a replacement for a weapon.

My main problem was all special characters (Belial, azrael) having ap2. The only codex marine character with it is Calgar. Dante for the Blood Angels, Draigo for the Grey Knights, etc. one character per book. There would be 0 reason for Dark Angels to have more.

Uh whut???
Calgar ap2
Pedro ap 2
Lysander ap 2

Dante ap2 aswell, grimnar ap2.... Wait a bleeding minute, Azrael is the only non ap2 lord of war chapter master, yeah me thinks you can go and cry in a corner or something, because heavenfall blades should be ap2 and at the very least Azrael should have been.

Burning blade is + 3 str, blind ap2, and 55, 40 for +2 ap2 master crafted.... Are you really arguing that +1 str and blind are not worth the extra points?

Infact I'm really hard pressed to think of a lord of war that isn't ap2 in combat?

Sammael is your combat character in this book. Toughness 5, his sword, and the ability to hit and run. Why are you even arguing it?

Azrael is 60pts cheaper than Calgar and Draigo, and neither of them provides a 4++ invulnerable save to his unit. Instead, you want to give Azrael an Ap2 relic blade with master crafted in addition to his support, and eternal warrior, without a price increase? Get real.

Pedro is an HQ and swings at I1. Lysander is an HQ and swings at I1. Calgar is a lord of war, and had most of his support abilities stripped away, and costs 275 base for the pleasure of swinging at I5.

And yes, Blind is garbage against the majority of opponents, especially compared to master crafted. The wielder of the burning blade has a chance to hurt himself when he uses it. Oh, and it's the sword of the Emperor himself, if you want to argue fluff on to why it is better.

S7 vs S6 means almost nothing against the majority of opponents. So yes, the relic heavenfall blade you want should be comparable in points. Master crafted is almost a free attack versus a 1/6 chance of making most duel opponents that matter hit on 5s/you hit on 3s. Blind isn't even in the same league as Master Crafted.

50 points sounds completely reasonable. The burning blade still pays more for its extra strength, but inferior special rules. At initiative AP2 is supposed to be expensive.

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
No they are not remotely op, it's a cc weapon, good luck getting to use it, sure it can kill marines, strike at I and str 6, so I'd guard and eldar, relic blade does that for cheaper, can hurt mc easier, yep relic blade can do that too...for cheaper.

1 on one with a space marine chapter master, you get 3++, fnp most likely, eternal warrior, we get str 6 ap2 at I, no eternal warrior, possibly a 3++ and most likely no fnp due to most popular space marine hq use using a thunder hammer.

Op... Not a bleeding chance.

Burning blade: +3s ap2 blind, incandescent (chance to hurt himself) 55pts.

Sword of Secrets: +2s ap2 master crafted 40pts.

Nope. Make it 50, two handed and a relic, fine. Don't compare it to the shield eternal, since it is a weapon where the shield is a replacement for a weapon.

My main problem was all special characters (Belial, azrael) having ap2. The only codex marine character with it is Calgar. Dante for the Blood Angels, Draigo for the Grey Knights, etc. one character per book. There would be 0 reason for Dark Angels to have more.

Uh whut???
Calgar ap2
Pedro ap 2
Lysander ap 2

Dante ap2 aswell, grimnar ap2.... Wait a bleeding minute, Azrael is the only non ap2 lord of war chapter master, yeah me thinks you can go and cry in a corner or something, because heavenfall blades should be ap2 and at the very least Azrael should have been.

Burning blade is + 3 str, blind ap2, and 55, 40 for +2 ap2 master crafted.... Are you really arguing that +1 str and blind are not worth the extra points?

Infact I'm really hard pressed to think of a lord of war that isn't ap2 in combat?

Sammael is your combat character in this book. Toughness 5, his sword, and the ability to hit and run. Why are you even arguing it?

Azrael is 60pts cheaper than Calgar and Draigo, and neither of them provides a 4++ invulnerable save to his unit. Instead, you want to give Azrael an Ap2 relic blade with master crafted in addition to his support, and eternal warrior, without a price increase? Get real.

Pedro is an HQ and swings at I1. Lysander is an HQ and swings at I1. Calgar is a lord of war, and had most of his support abilities stripped away, and costs 275 base for the pleasure of swinging at I5.

And yes, Blind is garbage against the majority of opponents, especially compared to master crafted. The wielder of the burning blade has a chance to hurt himself when he uses it. Oh, and it's the sword of the Emperor himself, if you want to argue fluff on to why it is better.

S7 vs S6 means almost nothing against the majority of opponents. So yes, the relic heavenfall blade you want should be comparable in points. Master crafted is almost a free attack versus a 1/6 chance of making most duel opponents that matter hit on 5s/you hit on 3s. Blind isn't even in the same league as Master Crafted.

50 points sounds completely reasonable. The burning blade still pays more for its extra strength, but inferior special rules. At initiative AP2 is supposed to be expensive.

Sammael is by no means a combat character, str 4 ap2 and max 5 attacks on the charge, awful for a cc character, also grossly over costed still, even with hit and run, and I agree, there is not point arguing it.

Azrael: your comments show me you either don't play dark angels or don't have a clue about Azrael, the 4++ for the entire unit is terrible for dark angels for several reasons
no unit in the codex can take advantage of the 4++ in any reasonable manner, put it in a termy sqaud, 400pts of bolter bait, Dev sqaud, wasted Azrael in the backfield, vet sqaud is more than a terminator sqaud if you try to beef it up, land raider is 415pts for a 4++, total crap.
So drop the 4++ arguement it's worthless.

You'll also note I never stated eternal warrior, that was op, while I do agree he should have it as a lord of war I could live without it.
Currently we have Azrael as a lord of war, he can't compete with any other lord of war, has a crapy 4++ buff that doesn't work with dark angels very well, +1 size while nice, I can get for a lot cheaper, 4 wounds, don't matter cos I'd as no ew, a single shot plasma gun....Meh, azrael is grossly over costed, under powered and badly equipped, he has been since 4th

Pedro has a 2+ save, so is near immune to Azrael, same wounds and can I'd Azrael, lysander troll lol lol you ain't a clue what your talking about, I 1 with lysander doesn't mean sqaut, he will walk through Azrael with ease, even with str6 ap2, calgar is also going to curb stomp azzy even with the buff.

I've already gone over the burning blade several times with you, so won't do so again.
Same with the str buff and mc,

So in short, your argument is that azzy would be too good with the buff, your wrong, heavenfall blades would be too good with the buff, again your wrong, as shown in all the examples the difference is negligible on most targets, you've tried to state that a 40pts heavenfall blade is too cheap, I've also shown this to be false, the burning blade is much better, even with the chance to hurt yourself, 40pts heaven blade is spot on.

 Mordred wrote:

I don't want to turn this into a personal argument but your use of quotations seems on the mean spirited side. Maybe I'm wrong though.
It seems to me your idea of what this eratta was meant to be is different from the truth. This is for fun in my garage and at my local game shop that makes things more interesting for everyone. It's not for abuse in formations of rules lawyering in tournaments. I do this same thing for all armies played in my area. I never tone items down just buff other ones to make them possibly worth taking instead of one autotake.

If it's for fun, then post that as "changes for fluff in Dark Angels", I tended to think that errata was a specific meaning. I'd be curious to see what changes you might have made to other codices if possible, I'm curious more than anything. Sounds pretty fun to me, especially if it makes it more true to the background.

 Formosa wrote:
That's the point, he doesn't have better stats than ANY beastick put there, I don't know where your getting that idea.

Ghazy kicks his arse every time.
Grimnar does too
Calgar too
Dante too
Lysander does too
Smashfether does too

Seriously what beastick can he beat and have a better stat line than with str6 ap2?

I think your trolling at this point.

You're seriously whining that Azrael isn't as good as characters that cost more than him? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're not trying to powergame and just don't understand that most of these characters cost more. Does Lysander give his entire unit a 4+ invulnerable save? Does Lysander have the ability to choose his warlord trait?

Again the 4++ is worthless, choosing warlord trait would be great if the warlord traits were good, none of the dark angels ones are any good on azrael.

Ap 2 would actually make azrael worth his point cost, adding ew would up his point cost to the 250 mark to me, since lysander is 230 but str 10 i1, calgar is 275 I5 str 8, so str6 ap 2 ew would be the middle ground if he had ew.

 Formosa wrote:
Again the 4++ is worthless, choosing warlord trait would be great if the warlord traits were good, none of the dark angels ones are any good on azrael.

How could you actually argue that a 4+ invulnerable for Azrael AND his unit is completely worthless? And also, I wasn't aware that giving Azrael ignores cover for his Plasma combi or modifying reserves rolls were bad, or having FNP on an objective (combined with 4+ invuls which are worthless) were bad.

Your argument hinges off the idea that you don't feel that it's worth it. But when you can throw Azrael in with a unit of ranged Terminators and give them a 4++ and save points on stormshields, that's pretty neat. Or the Veteran squad, which I've seen used before and it's been pretty neat.

Ap 2 would actually make azrael worth his point cost, adding ew would up his point cost to the 250 mark to me, since lysander is 230 but str 10 i1, calgar is 275 I5 str 8, so str6 ap 2 ew would be the middle ground if he had ew.

Logan Grimnar's weapon is AP3 unless he makes it unwieldy and he's 35 points more than Azrael.

Lysander is 230 but Str10, and doesn't give his ENTIRE unit a 4+ invulnerable save. Your problem is you're comparing character to character. By that logic, a Librarian alone is completely worthless, so is a single Warlock. So is Eldrad, with only an AP3 weapon and significantly less attacks.

So what if Azrael isn't a beatstick? He isn't supposed to be. But make him 225 and make him AP2, I don't care. I'll just be making all of my World Eater Rampagers weapons have AP3 or 2 base and give them a 2+ armor save since that will "make them worth their points".

Stalked21 wrote:
I just realized something about the "ravenwing special rule" doesn't an HQ choice joined with a unit get the rules that affect the unit? so unless your running a lone biker it's not really an issue? Still a huge fluke on GW yeah but I'm pretty sure that's how it works?

No, IC's joined to units don't get all their rules, only the rules worded like "If a unit contains at least one model with this rule then..." (like Stubborn).

But that's not the primary reason for the suggested errata. The Ravenwing Strike Force has slots for three HQ choices, but they must have the 'Ravenwing' special rule. There are only two HQ's with the Ravenwing special rule, and they are both Sammael (and thus, mutually exclusive).

The Deathwing version works with any IC in terminator armour (instead of having to take Belial every time), so why doesn't the Ravenwing one work with any IC on a bike?

Forget special ammo for veterans those suckers in the codex marines can keep em. That's baby toys, give them land raiders as a dedicated transport like the wolf guard do. They fill a similar role in both armies but unlike wolf guard we are stuck with an assault infantry that can't take an assault fething vehicle. It would be like orks without open topped vehicles it's simply not done.

Moving down the line I think that we should also not give company masters bikes, that's a stupid idea. I think that tech marines shouldn't get bikes either it if they do they can't take a harness.

Heavy support slot units on the hole are fine, don't touch them.

Dreadnaughts are also fine and I can't think of any change if make to fast attacks beyond removing the grenade launcher from black Knights as its worthless now, and it saves on printed page.

I'd also probably look at not changing the blades of reason into being a digital weapon freebie, making them instead, s- ap5, instant death, master crafted I feel is a fair statline for the weapon offering you an alternative to his power maul and since he has a bolt pistol for free you now need to weigh the fact that you get an extra attack as a trade off for the loss of s+2

Move the relic bearer back to company masters, let belial buy one for 15p same goes for Ezekiel.

 Quintinus wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Again the 4++ is worthless, choosing warlord trait would be great if the warlord traits were good, none of the dark angels ones are any good on azrael.

How could you actually argue that a 4+ invulnerable for Azrael AND his unit is completely worthless? And also, I wasn't aware that giving Azrael ignores cover for his Plasma combi or modifying reserves rolls were bad, or having FNP on an objective (combined with 4+ invuls which are worthless) were bad.

Your argument hinges off the idea that you don't feel that it's worth it. But when you can throw Azrael in with a unit of ranged Terminators and give them a 4++ and save points on stormshields, that's pretty neat. Or the Veteran squad, which I've seen used before and it's been pretty neat.

Ap 2 would actually make azrael worth his point cost, adding ew would up his point cost to the 250 mark to me, since lysander is 230 but str 10 i1, calgar is 275 I5 str 8, so str6 ap 2 ew would be the middle ground if he had ew.

Logan Grimnar's weapon is AP3 unless he makes it unwieldy and he's 35 points more than Azrael.

Lysander is 230 but Str10, and doesn't give his ENTIRE unit a 4+ invulnerable save. Your problem is you're comparing character to character. By that logic, a Librarian alone is completely worthless, so is a single Warlock. So is Eldrad, with only an AP3 weapon and significantly less attacks.

So what if Azrael isn't a beatstick? He isn't supposed to be. But make him 225 and make him AP2, I don't care. I'll just be making all of my World Eater Rampagers weapons have AP3 or 2 base and give them a 2+ armor save since that will "make them worth their points".

Wait a minute, didn't you start the comparisons of other characters?

Funnily enough your annology on the rampagers is actually true, we changed them to have ceadre weapons for free since they are woefully bad vs every other legion specific unit of equivalent points.


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Oh and I apologise, didn't realise logons axe was ap3 now.

Having Azrael be a more effective combat character wouldn't be a bad thing. A Lord of War chapter master type should be a beat stick AND a support god. Of course, his points should rise correspondingly.

And let's not get too down on that 4++. What happens if you put Az inside the Landraider in a Hammer of Caliban?

Another thing:

Hammer of caliban formation:

Change wording to:

1 land raider (of any type)
1 squadron of the following:
Vindicator, predator, whirlwind

This opens up forge world land raiders as an option for the formation which make it infinitely more useful as a formation. As is the formation is very disjointed, a whirlwind has no place in it because your either throwing the whirlwinds into harms way or your having a land raider sit in the backfield

This also opens up using the land raider excelsior in the formation which solved the problem of nobody in our book having skyfire. The excelsior can then grant it to say the predators in the squadron and now you have a flakk battery with lots of heavy 2 autocannons.

^Sounds pretty agreeable overall.
Not something I could really use personally but I could imagine quite a few would like that option.

CrashGordon94 wrote:
^Sounds pretty agreeable overall.
Not something I could really use personally but I could imagine quite a few would like that option.

exactly,

Bs5 on a land raider Helios? With three whirlwinds at his back? That's an awesome idea, or use him in tandem with lascannon predators, they pop the transports he hits the contents with his big ugly missles of death...justice....awesomeness.. Gun.. You get my point!

 Formosa wrote:


Wait a minute, didn't you start the comparisons of other characters?

Nah, that was someone else

Funnily enough your annology on the rampagers is actually true, we changed them to have ceadre weapons for free since they are woefully bad vs every other legion specific unit of equivalent points.

Ha, yeah I think that even with Caedare weapons free they're not that great but it's a good move. Caedare weapons are pretty weak overall imo, they could use a -1 AP drop for all weapons with the exception of the Meteor Hammer and then they'd be worth it. That and Jump Packs are ridiculously costed in 30k in general. Would you be open to creating a 30k thread in Proposed rules? I have some ideas for Orks, interex, and some other Heresy stuff.

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Oh and I apologise, didn't realise logons axe was ap3 now.

It's all good! There's so many characters in this game now it's hard to keep track. I thought he was AP2 as well until I looked into it.