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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/02 06:51:35
Subject: Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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Most Glorious Grey Seer
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Ultimately, foreign policy, not Obamacare or Gay Marriage, will be President Obama's enduring legacy.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/11712237/US-blocks-attempts-by-Arab-allies-to-fly-heavy-weapons-directly-to-Kurds-to-fight-Islamic-State.html
Con Coughlin wrote:US blocks attempts by Arab allies to fly heavy weapons directly to Kurds to fight Islamic State
Middle East allies accuse Barack Obama and David Cameron of failing to show strategic leadership in fight against Isil, as MPs could be given vote on whether to bomb Syria
President Barack Obama pauses speaks at Taylor Stratton Elementary School in Nashville
The United States has blocked attempts by its Middle East allies to fly heavy weapons directly to the Kurds fighting Islamic State jihadists in Iraq, The Telegraph has learnt.
Some of America’s closest allies say President Barack Obama and other Western leaders, including David Cameron, are failing to show strategic leadership over the world’s gravest security crisis for decades.
They now say they are willing to “go it alone” in supplying heavy weapons to the Kurds, even if means defying the Iraqi authorities and their American backers, who demand all weapons be channelled through Baghdad.
High level officials from Gulf and other states have told this newspaper that all attempts to persuade Mr Obama of the need to arm the Kurds directly as part of more vigorous plans to take on Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isil) have failed. The Senate voted down one attempt by supporters of the Kurdish cause last month.
The officials say they are looking at new ways to take the fight to Isil without seeking US approval.
• West is losing the Twitter battle with fanatics, says general
• Allison Pearson: We should demand military action against Islamic State
“If the Americans and the West are not prepared to do anything serious about defeating Isil, then we will have to find new ways of dealing with the threat,” said a senior Arab government official. “With Isil making ground all the time we simply cannot afford to wait for Washington to wake up to the enormity of the threat we face.”
Kurdish Peshmerga fighters train on a weapon during a training session with British military advisers
The Peshmerga have been successfully fighting Isil, driving them back from the gates of Erbil and, with the support of Kurds from neighbouring Syria, re-establishing control over parts of Iraq’s north-west.
But they are doing so with a makeshift armoury. Millions of pounds-worth of weapons have been bought by a number of European countries to arm the Kurds, but American commanders, who are overseeing all military operations against Isil, are blocking the arms transfers.
One of the core complaints of the Kurds is that the Iraqi army has abandoned so many weapons in the face of Isil attack, the Peshmerga are fighting modern American weaponry with out-of-date Soviet equipment.
At least one Arab state is understood to be considering arming the Peshmerga directly, despite US opposition.
The US has also infuriated its allies, particularly Saudi Arabia, Jordan and the Gulf states, by what they perceive to be a lack of clear purpose and vacillation in how they conduct the bombing campaign. Other members of the coalition say they have identified clear Isil targets but then been blocked by US veto from firing at them.
“There is simply no strategic approach,” one senior Gulf official said. “There is a lack of coordination in selecting targets, and there is no overall plan for defeating Isil.”
Western leaders increasingly accept that the “war on Isil” has not gone well, from the moment last year Mr Obama called the group a “JV [junior varsity] team” of jihadists compared with al-Qaeda. At that point, Isil had seized Fallujah, which US forces took in a bloody battle in 2004. It went on to take much of western Iraq and large areas of Syria, and in May took Ramadi, the capital of Anbar province.
Britain is moving closer to expanding its role in the war. The Government on Wednesday gave its strongest indication yet that MPs will be given a new vote on whether to bomb Isil in Syria.
Michael Fallon, the Defence Secretary, said it was “illogical” that British planes were able to hit extremists in Iraq but not across the border.
Any decision to bomb in Syria would have to be approved by MPs. In 2013, the Prime Minister lost a vote for British military action in Syria. However, Mr Fallon said: “It is a new Parliament and I think new Members of Parliament will want to think very carefully about how we best deal with Isil, and the illogicality of Isil not respecting the borderlines.”
Mr Fallon suggested that a bombing campaign could be mounted in revenge for the terror attacks in Tunisia if a link could be proved between the killer and Isil in Libya. Britain would only take military action in Libya “where we think there is an imminent threat, a very direct to British lives or, for example, to British hostages”, he said.
Senior Whitehall sources did not distance themselves from Mr Fallon’s comments but insisted there was no immediate prospect of military action.
The Telegraph understands that Mr Cameron is concerned that Labour might force the Government into another defeat over Syria.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 9015/07/02 07:08:11
Subject: Re:Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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Bryan Ansell
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The Iraqi leadership do not want want well armed Kurds. The Kurds want autonomy if not statehood in that region. Iraq is certainly not going to allow them to be well armed.
Turkey have the same sentiments. they definitely do not want a well armed Kurdish army on their doorstep either.
Obama has to support the Iraqi leadership and historically the west has failed the Kurds many times over the last 20 years or so.
It is also glaringly obvious that the Peshmerga are offering more effective warfighting than the national army.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/02 07:25:25
Subject: Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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Not the only ones who can't make up their mind who to support. Apparently the UK government want to bomb ISIS in Syria, effectively helping the government in the civil war. It wasn't so long ago that our government were trying their best to bomb Assad's forces and actually help the rebels. Leading a vote against that was about the best thing Miliband did in opposition, yet he won't get much credit for it now. It should be a source of embarrassment to the government that the only reason they are in a strong enough position to get involved now is because they were prevented from interfering in the way they wanted before - which would have been disastrous as it would have let ISIS swarm to take control.
They should be careful how they approach this. I can just see them attacking ISIS and consequently destroying the rebel forces ability to fight. And then Assad will regain the advantage resulting in a massacre and swarms of refuges as he clamps down control.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/02 07:26:21
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/02 09:58:32
Subject: Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle
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Seems sensible. Too many times the US has supported rebel factions only for them to turn around and use that training and weapons against them, and to be arming the Kurds against the will of the Iraqi government, knowing full well that the next target will be an independent Kurdish state, covering both parts of Iraq and Turkey, seems foolish.
The enemy of my enemy is not my friend, at least not for long.
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insaniak wrote:Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/02 11:00:57
Subject: Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Breotan wrote:Ultimately, foreign policy, not Obamacare or Gay Marriage, will be President Obama's enduring legacy.
You're quoting Con Coughlin?
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/02 11:21:17
Subject: Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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Fate-Controlling Farseer
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I don't believe foreign policy will be the only thing he is remembered for, but it will certainly be a large black eye on his legacy. The economy will blacken the other eye.
As for this, I love that it came out (I use the term love sarcastically), the day after the story that ISIS is crucifying children for eating during Ramadan.
Crucifying children. For eating food.
How the world has not been able to stand up united yet, and say "No More" to these people blows my mind. The simple fact that we are refusing the ONLY people who have been having any success against fighting these people continues to blow my mind.
The kurds want there own state? It make sense to not support that? Well go look down a few threads, you'll see a ton of people here yelling about how it's long past time a terrorist ran government deserves its own state just a few hundred miles away.
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Full Frontal Nerdity |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/02 12:05:41
Subject: Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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Krazed Killa Kan
Homestead, FL
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Remember everyone, Islam the religion of Peace, whole countries devoted to Islam are the most peaceful in the world. I mean just don't violate any rules of the Koran or other random works of literature that they revere and you won't be crucified.
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I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all
Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/02 12:13:22
Subject: Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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ISIL is a special case of weird. IIRC but Ramadan specifically permitted children, the aged, and the sick to be able to eat and drink normally.
Ah here I was right:
Fasting, or “sawm” in Arabic, begins 20 minutes before dawn (fajr) and ends at sundown (maghrib). It applies to able-bodied adults, meaning that children; pregnant, breastfeeding or menstruating women; travelers; the elderly; and the ill are exempt. Those who fast must abstain from eating or drinking, sex, smoking and telling lies, among other practices. In addition to fasting, Muslims are supposed to pray five times daily during Ramadan, a month of self-reflection and self-control.
http://www.ibtimes.com/ramadan-2015-fasting-rules-quick-facts-survival-tips-muslim-holy-month-1969551
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/02 12:16:37
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/02 12:25:56
Subject: Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress
Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.
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At this point we are better off supporting Assad, directly or indirectly, than doing nothing.
The trick to dealing wit Assad is to treat him like Idi Amin. Give him an international pardon and a plane ticket out to another country where he can stay in a villa in comfort the rest of his days, with his family and those close to him. The French arranged this and it sorted out Uganda, it allowed Amin's party to remain in power but cleaned up the nation enough for a fresh beginning, and didnt require a civil war to remove Amin.
Allowing the Baathists to remain, and actually prop them up, just without Assad could work, he could give in luxury in Dubai and due to the relative bloodlessness (from that point onward) is an excuse to keep him out of the courts. IIRC Saudi Arabia hosted Amin, they could host Assad too.
Saddam was offered this deal but it is unclear whether he refused or if it became known Bush would have reneged and arrested him in the host country.
A Baathist Syria backed up by the west without Assad could and probably will work.
Israel wont like it, they want Syria unstable, but its time the US gave Israel the finger anyway, they patently work only for themselves and bite the hand that feeds them regularly.
This will give a real chance at crushing ISIS.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/02 12:27:51
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/02 14:03:26
Subject: Re:Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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In the world of realpolitik things are never as easy as they might look.
Yes, the Kurds pronbably are our best bet for fighting ISIS without getting our own troops involved in large numbers. However the Kurdish zone of influence spans into Turkey as well as Iraq. The Turkls don't want the long-standing Kurdish autonomist movmenet getting any kind of aboost. Turkey is a member of NATO. If the Kurds should start to kick against the Turkish pricks, technically NATO would be involved as a Turkish ally, and if we are also involved as a supplier of weapons and training to the Kurds we would be on both sides.
As regards Syria, I am not sure how stable and supportable (human rights, etc) a Baathist regime would be even having flown Assad off to the Bahamas. The Baathist axis included Assad and Saddam and a lot of not particularly savoury people. A lot of the ISIS military professionals are ex-Iraqi officers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/02 16:36:49
Subject: Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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Ghost of Greed and Contempt
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I suspect that there is also a concern that should we arm the groups fighting IS, we might end up inadvertently arming IS itself, should they defeat whoever we give weapons to.
I seem to remember reading something about IS gaining a lot of equipment from the Iraqi army units (armed by the west) who either defected to IS or fled.
And the West really doesn't want to upset Turkey, seeing as it's acting as a buffer between Europe and Syria at the moment, so arming the Kurds would probably be a poor move, politically speaking.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/02 17:37:59
Subject: Re:Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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Guarded Grey Knight Terminator
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Not arming anybody in the middle east probably deserves to be right up there with 'don't start a land war in asia'.
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I am the Hammer. I am the right hand of my Emperor. I am the tip of His spear, I am the gauntlet about His fist. I am the woes of daemonkind. I am the Hammer. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/02 17:46:33
Subject: Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Don't arm...sell.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/03 12:07:14
Subject: Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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Krazed Killa Kan
Homestead, FL
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Actually arming the kurds would be fine for the US, the Kurds have displayed a lot of control and moral character, the problem and the reason we don't arm them is because Iraq and Turkey both have large populations of Kurds and neither country wants Kurdistan to become a country
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I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all
Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/03 12:39:39
Subject: Re:Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Huh, and here's me thinking that the West had been arming the Kurds already... Policy one week says arm one side, the next week its the other. IIRC the Israelis are also supporting the Kurds as 1) they're only too happy for someone to fight ISIS on their behalf and 2) making the Kurds their friends gives them an ally against their enemies in the region, all the better if Kurdistan becomes a country.
So yes, we can call one group monsters and ask for them to be imprisoned over their human rights abuses, but then suddenly they're our new best friend? Evidently we'd rather prop up a few failed governments that we've invested a ton of money and political pandering, though what's the alternative? Least the Israelis don't really have to give a toss about whether the Kurds beat ISIS or destabilize a few of their enemies. Pragmatism really is what foreign policy runs on, it'd just help if it didn't come and back and bite us in the arse a couple of years down the line constantly...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/03 12:51:53
Subject: Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle
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Two issues there, first, as we have seen time and again, just because you give someone arms does not make them your friend. Time and again western governments have armed groups thinking they were making friends and helping allies that would support them once they were in government, only to find out that these people only liked us a little more than the people they were fighting at the time.
Secondly, it almost certainly will come back to bite us, as the next target of the Kurds would be the Turkish and Iraqi governments, who are the moment are our allies. Israels government doesn't give a gak about anyone but itself.
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insaniak wrote:Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/03 14:45:18
Subject: Re:Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Squatting with the squigs
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All we are saying is give kurds a chance.
I'm all for a Kurdish state as long as they then put in place water treaties with those around them. I think it's doubtful but then again I'm surprised the US isn't supporting a non Arab ethnic group in the middle east or are the Jews just special?
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My new blog: http://kardoorkapers.blogspot.com.au/
Manchu - "But so what? The Bible also says the flood destroyed the world. You only need an allegorical boat to tackle an allegorical flood."
Shespits "Anything i see with YOLO has half naked eleventeen year olds Girls. And of course booze and drugs and more half naked elventeen yearolds Girls. O how i wish to YOLO again!"
Rubiksnoob "Next you'll say driving a stick with a Scandinavian supermodel on your lap while ripping a bong impairs your driving. And you know what, I'M NOT GOING TO STOP, YOU FILTHY COMMUNIST" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/03 14:47:04
Subject: Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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As mentioned previously it is because the Kurds want to establish an autonomous zone leading to independence from Turkey and Iraq. Turkey is a NATO ally of the USA.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/03 19:08:52
Subject: Re:Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Bullockist wrote:All we are saying is give kurds a chance.
I'm all for a Kurdish state as long as they then put in place water treaties with those around them. I think it's doubtful but then again I'm surprised the US isn't supporting a non Arab ethnic group in the middle east or are the Jews just special?
Israel regularly provides training to the Kurds. This is a US problem, not a Jewish problem.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/03 20:34:07
Subject: Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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Most Glorious Grey Seer
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So ironic that the Kurds are the only ones in the area who are fighting the "good fight" and we're basically fething on them because of politics.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/03 20:37:41
Subject: Re:Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Don't the Kurds have a load of ex-American servicemen fighting alongside them as volunteers? There was a thread about it here ages ago. Hell go on and send some "volunteers" Russian style over there America if you feel your political commitments make this a difficult area.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/03 21:15:45
Subject: Re:Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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Krazed Killa Kan
Homestead, FL
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Wyrmalla wrote:Don't the Kurds have a load of ex-American servicemen fighting alongside them as volunteers? There was a thread about it here ages ago. Hell go on and send some "volunteers" Russian style over there America if you feel your political commitments make this a difficult area. 
The difference being that the "volunteers" in Ukraine are actually Russian ACTIVE DUTY servicemen who were ordered to "Volunteer" to fight in Ukraine. The American volunteers in Iraq fighting are literally ex service members who felt duty bound to fight for the kurds (a lot of my buddies fought beside them during the Iraq war and held the Kurds in High esteem. More so then the Iraqi's)
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I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all
Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/03 22:21:01
Subject: Re:Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Oh you misinterpreted my point. I said just as you did Ghazkuul, I was just joking that the US maybe should send in some "volunteers" of their own.
Jokes + Internet = ...Blargh
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/04 00:56:30
Subject: Re:Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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Krazed Killa Kan
Homestead, FL
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Wyrmalla wrote:Oh you misinterpreted my point. I said just as you did Ghazkuul, I was just joking that the US maybe should send in some "volunteers" of their own.
Jokes + Internet = ...Blargh
Ahh, you failed to use the *Sarcasm* Font
Either way, I still believe that the Kurds deserve their own country and Turkey/Iraq be damned. Their actions have proven they deserve one.
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I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all
Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/04 01:17:36
Subject: Re:Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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Lord of the Fleet
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and airstrikes for Assad. But that gets swept under the carpet regularly.
The players:
Iraq:
Opposes the Kurds
Opposes ISIS
Allied with the US.
Allied with Iran
Neutral on AQ
Iran:
Opposes ISIS
Opposes the West in general
Allied with Hamas
Allied with Iraq
US:
Opposes ISIS
Opposes AQ
Opposes Iran
Supports Kurds
Supports Secular rebels
Allied with Israel.
Allied with Turkey
Israel:
Supports Assad
Neutral on Kurds
Neutral on ISIS until their recent betrayal of Assad
Opposes Iran
Opposes Iraq
Opposes Hamas
Opposes AQ
Allied with the US
AQ (Syrian franchise)
Neutral on west as long as they oppose ISIS (supposedly)
Opposes ISIS
Opposes Israel
Allied with Hamas
Allied with Iran
Allied with some elements in Iraq
ISIS
Opposes everyone but ISIS
Allied until recently with Assad, now opposes him too.
Turkey:
Neutral on ISIS
Neutral on AQ
Opposed to Iran
Opposed to Kurds
Allied with US.
Hamas:
Opposes ISIS
Opposes Israel
Allied with Iran
So, you can see how wacky incidents like Israeli jets providing ISIS backed Assad fighters air support against Hamas, or Turkish airstrikes against US backed Kurds have been happening. Evne stranger, it puts the US and Hamas on the same side, which Israel has been undermining with aistrikes against Hamas efforts against ISIS in western Syria
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/07/04 01:21:55
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/04 15:22:55
Subject: Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Hmm. It's almost as if international politics was complicated...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/04 20:44:40
Subject: Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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Confessor Of Sins
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Compel wrote:Hmm. It's almost as if international politics was complicated...
Aye, politics have to look at "big picture" type of things. It's not like the US said anything about the Kurds either until Saddam of Iraq made himself a nuisance to other important US allies in the Middle East. Before that he happily gassed them when they made trouble, and anyone opposing Iran (or Kurds) looked the other way.
The problem is that politics affect real people. Giving money and weapons to one group to solve problems for you is a time-honored political tradition, but it all too often ends up as something else than intended because the people that liked getting money and guns aren't going to be happy when you stop giving them stuff - they may find another backer. Collecting people into prison camps to stop an insurgency certainly works once there's enough people arrested, but it also puts any possible innocents in contact with bad guys who can now tell them why these people rounding them up are bad. Overthrowing governments (as seen in many many places) just because you don't like them may result either in resistance movements or even a more distasteful government later on.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/04 21:32:43
Subject: Middle East terrorism - or, Who's side are we on again?
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Lord of the Fleet
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Compel wrote:Hmm. It's almost as if international politics was complicated...
Yeah, sadly, the only ones with a clear goal and course of action is ISIS, who's plan is basically 'kill or enslave everyone not us'.
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Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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