Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi all

My friend and I are currently having a disagreement with regards to Praetorians and night scythes.

My understanding is that Praetorians cannot be transported by a Night Scythe due to being a jumping unit, praetorians can however buy a night scythe to act as anti air without it taking up a force org spot much like a squad of 30 ork warriors can buy but not enter a truk.

His argument is that as the praetorians (in a judicator battalion) are allowed to buy a night scythe that automatically means they are allowed use it as transport, however disagrees when I say that jet pack units can't be transported as he believes the codex explicitly says they can be.

Could somebody give some clarity here as having a unit of str 7 AP2 weapons being able to fly across the board in 1 turn AND assault in the same phase isn't ludicrous for 200 points.

Praetorian are jump infantry which mean they are bulky as per the rules book. Nothing forbid a Night Scythe to transport Bulky models. Just that they take 2 space instead of 1.

The question is why can he assault after disembarking? I have the Necron codex right in front of me and nothing should allow him to do so.

Nothing allows non infantry models to embark in general , which is the issue

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Nothing allows non infantry models to embark in general , which is the issue

You are right but in this case Praetorians are Jump "infantry". and the night scythe is a dedicated transport for the Pratorians as per the Necron Codex

So per the rules you deploy the Praetorians 'inside' the Night Scythe.

 Xenophon00 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Nothing allows non infantry models to embark in general , which is the issue

You are right but in this case Praetorians are Jump "infantry". and the night scythe is a dedicated transport for the Pratorians as per the Necron Codex

Yes, they are jump infantry. They are not infantry. Being a dedicated transport provides no specific permission to embark

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Xenophon00 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Nothing allows non infantry models to embark in general , which is the issue

You are right but in this case Praetorians are Jump "infantry". and the night scythe is a dedicated transport for the Pratorians as per the Necron Codex

Yes, they are jump infantry. They are not infantry. Being a dedicated transport provides no specific permission to embark

There are no rules for embarking during deployment.

The rules that we have allow us to deploy models 'inside' transports so I will follow those.

Page 80 BRB, Only Infantry models may embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise.

 HANZERtank wrote:
Page 80 BRB, Only Infantry models may embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise.

These are the rules for embarking



This does not happen during deployment since per the rules you are not allowed to make any moves.

During deployment you deploy the praetorians 'inside' the Night Scythe.





So per RAW I deploy the praetorians inside their dedicated transport.

So your saying I can put a wraithnight inside a falcon as long as its during deployment. Nothing says I cant do that, just as nothing says I can't put praetorians in a night scythe.

Also on page 80, A transport can carry a single Infantry unit... not jump infantry or jetpack infantry.

This does not happen during deployment since per the rules you are not allowed to make any moves.

During deployment you deploy the praetorians 'inside' the Night Scythe.

Are you not deploying embarked onto the night scythe?

So to summarise, Praetorians may not embark upon a Night Scythe because they are Jump Infantry. They may however be deployed inside the Night Scythe regardless of the Jump Infantry restriction on general embarking because deploying inside a transport is not the same as embarking.

I don't understand the big argue here. Night Scythe is a dedicated transport for the Praetorians. That is where the bulky rule matter.

 HANZERtank wrote:
So your saying I can put a wraithnight inside a falcon as long as its during deployment. Nothing says I cant do that, just as nothing says I can't put praetorians in a night scythe.

Also on page 80, A transport can carry a single Infantry unit... not jump infantry or jetpack infantry.

Please clarify whether a Wraithknight is bulky, extremely bulky, etc. and how that figures into the transport capacity.

 Xenophon00 wrote:
I don't understand the big argue here. Night Scythe is a dedicated transport for the Praetorians. That is where the bulky rule matter.

That's not the issue. The general rules for transport capacity state:

"Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise."

Praetorians are Jump Infantry and so unless stated otherwise cannot embark upon their Night Scythe.

What would be the purpose of taking a dedicated transport if can not embark into it?

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Xenophon00 wrote:
I don't understand the big argue here. Night Scythe is a dedicated transport for the Praetorians. That is where the bulky rule matter.

That's not the issue. The general rules for transport capacity state:

"Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise."

Praetorians are Jump Infantry and so unless stated otherwise cannot embark upon their Night Scythe.

Point to the place in the rules where the praetorians go through a process of embarking onto a night scythe during deployment.

There is no such process of embarking during deployment.

When I look at the rules, I find rules that point out how the praetorians are deployed 'inside' the night scythe at deployment.

I also find rules for embarking that can only be followed during player turns and not during deployment.

I follow the rules. I deploy the praetorians 'inside' their dedicated transport during deployment.

 Xenophon00 wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:
So your saying I can put a wraithnight inside a falcon as long as its during deployment. Nothing says I cant do that, just as nothing says I can't put praetorians in a night scythe.

Also on page 80, A transport can carry a single Infantry unit… not jump infantry or jetpack infantry.

Nope cos those are beast.

But praetorians are jump infantry whi are also not allowed.

 HANZERtank wrote:

 Xenophon00 wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:
So your saying I can put a wraithnight inside a falcon as long as its during deployment. Nothing says I cant do that, just as nothing says I can't put praetorians in a night scythe.

Also on page 80, A transport can carry a single Infantry unit… not jump infantry or jetpack infantry.

Nope cos those are beast.

But praetorians are jump infantry whi are also not allowed.

Point to the rules where this is not allowed.

col_impact wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:

 Xenophon00 wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:
So your saying I can put a wraithnight inside a falcon as long as its during deployment. Nothing says I cant do that, just as nothing says I can't put praetorians in a night scythe.

Also on page 80, A transport can carry a single Infantry unit… not jump infantry or jetpack infantry.

Nope cos those are beast.

But praetorians are jump infantry whi are also not allowed.

Point to the rules where this is not allowed.

Page 80 "A transport can carry a single Infantry unit.." this says infanty and doesn't say any other type of unit. And if you argue they're not embarked they're deployed I say they cant disembark as the rules clearly say inly a unit that start embarked upon a vehicle can disembark.

col_impact wrote:
Point to the place in the rules where the praetorians go through a process of embarking onto a night scythe during deployment.

When I look at the rules, I find rules that point out how the praetorians are deployed 'inside' the night scythe at deployment.

I also find rules for embarking that can only be followed during player turns and not during deployment.

I follow the rules. I deploy the praetorians 'inside' their dedicated transport during deployment.

I'm not sure why you're quoting me to point this out given my initial post; I see your point per strict RAW, though I don't agree with it as RAI.

By strict RAW a Jump Infantry unit may not perform the act of embarking upon a transport, though there is no restriction from them being embarked[i/] provided they [i]deployed in the transport.

Common sense would suggest that not being able to embark would preclude a unit from being embarked, but I suppose that comes under RAI.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Point to the place in the rules where the praetorians go through a process of embarking onto a night scythe during deployment.

When I look at the rules, I find rules that point out how the praetorians are deployed 'inside' the night scythe at deployment.

I also find rules for embarking that can only be followed during player turns and not during deployment.

I follow the rules. I deploy the praetorians 'inside' their dedicated transport during deployment.

I'm not sure why you're quoting me to point this out given my initial post; I see your point per strict RAW, though I don't agree with it as RAI.

By strict RAW a Jump Infantry unit may not perform the act of embarking upon a transport, though there is no restriction from them being embarked[i/] provided they [i]deployed in the transport.

Common sense would suggest that not being able to embark would preclude a unit from being embarked, but I suppose that comes under RAI.

RAI??!!

You do realize that praetorians are specifically allowed the night scythe as a dedicated transport. I think it is abundantly clear what RAI is. Namely that the praetorians can indeed ride along in their dedicated transport.

Luckily, strict RAW allows the praetorians to start the game deployed in their dedicated transport without a hitch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HANZERtank wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:

 Xenophon00 wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:
So your saying I can put a wraithnight inside a falcon as long as its during deployment. Nothing says I cant do that, just as nothing says I can't put praetorians in a night scythe.

Also on page 80, A transport can carry a single Infantry unit… not jump infantry or jetpack infantry.

Nope cos those are beast.

But praetorians are jump infantry whi are also not allowed.

Point to the rules where this is not allowed.

Page 80 "A transport can carry a single Infantry unit.." this says infanty and doesn't say any other type of unit. And if you argue they're not embarked they're deployed I say they cant disembark as the rules clearly say inly a unit that start embarked upon a vehicle can disembark.

Jump infantry have permission to be be carried in a transport by being infantry.



I am not saying they are not embarked. I am saying the rules RAW allow units to start the game embarked upon transports all the while skipping the process of embarking which by definition in the rules can only occur during player turns and not during deployment. If you feel otherwise, point to a rule for embarking which supports what you are trying to argue.

So if I follow these rules about embarking and deployment, nothing says I can't start a warhound titan in a taurox. On page 132 models can be deployed 'inside' buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their transport capacity. Tourox has transport capacity of 12 models and a warhound is one model. Seeing as we can disregard only infantry models may be embarked during deployments is totally leagal.

 HANZERtank wrote:
So if I follow these rules about embarking and deployment, nothing says I can't start a warhound titan in a taurox. On page 132 models can be deployed 'inside' buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their transport capacity. Tourox has transport capacity of 12 models and a warhound is one model. Seeing as we can disregard only infantry models may be embarked during deployments is totally leagal.

Is a warhound an infantry unit? Transports carry infantry per the rules. So your example runs against the rules and is totally illegal.

Praetorians are infantry.

col_impact wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:
So if I follow these rules about embarking and deployment, nothing says I can't start a warhound titan in a taurox. On page 132 models can be deployed 'inside' buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their transport capacity. Tourox has transport capacity of 12 models and a warhound is one model. Seeing as we can disregard only infantry models may be embarked during deployments is totally leagal.

Is a warhound an infantry unit? Transports carry infantry per the rules.

Praetorians are infantry.

No, they are jumping infantry which the BRB explicitly prohibits.

col_impact wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:
So if I follow these rules about embarking and deployment, nothing says I can't start a warhound titan in a taurox. On page 132 models can be deployed 'inside' buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their transport capacity. Tourox has transport capacity of 12 models and a warhound is one model. Seeing as we can disregard only infantry models may be embarked during deployments is totally leagal.

Is a warhound an infantry unit? Transports carry infantry per the rules.

Praetorians are infantry.

No they are jump infantry which arw a diff unit type.

nunuthehoover wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:
So if I follow these rules about embarking and deployment, nothing says I can't start a warhound titan in a taurox. On page 132 models can be deployed 'inside' buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their transport capacity. Tourox has transport capacity of 12 models and a warhound is one model. Seeing as we can disregard only infantry models may be embarked during deployments is totally leagal.

Is a warhound an infantry unit? Transports carry infantry per the rules.

Praetorians are infantry.

No, they are jumping infantry which the BRB explicitly prohibits.

Start pointing to rules and quoting rules. The rules do not say what you think they say.

I, on the other hand, have been freely quoting rules from the BRB and I have traced a clear line of permission to deploy praetorians 'inside' their night scythe dedicated transport.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HANZERtank wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:
So if I follow these rules about embarking and deployment, nothing says I can't start a warhound titan in a taurox. On page 132 models can be deployed 'inside' buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their transport capacity. Tourox has transport capacity of 12 models and a warhound is one model. Seeing as we can disregard only infantry models may be embarked during deployments is totally leagal.

Is a warhound an infantry unit? Transports carry infantry per the rules.

Praetorians are infantry.

No they are jump infantry which arw a diff unit type.

Wrong. They are infantry. They are also jump.

col_impact wrote:

nunuthehoover wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:
So if I follow these rules about embarking and deployment, nothing says I can't start a warhound titan in a taurox. On page 132 models can be deployed 'inside' buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their transport capacity. Tourox has transport capacity of 12 models and a warhound is one model. Seeing as we can disregard only infantry models may be embarked during deployments is totally leagal.

Is a warhound an infantry unit? Transports carry infantry per the rules.

Praetorians are infantry.

No, they are jumping infantry which the BRB explicitly prohibits.

Start pointing to rules and quoting rules. The rules do not say what you think they say.

I, on the other hand, have been freely quoting rules from the BRB and I have traced a clear line of permission to deploy praetorians 'inside' their night scythe dedicated transport.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HANZERtank wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:
So if I follow these rules about embarking and deployment, nothing says I can't start a warhound titan in a taurox. On page 132 models can be deployed 'inside' buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their transport capacity. Tourox has transport capacity of 12 models and a warhound is one model. Seeing as we can disregard only infantry models may be embarked during deployments is totally leagal.

Is a warhound an infantry unit? Transports carry infantry per the rules.

Praetorians are infantry.

No they are jump infantry which arw a diff unit type.

Wrong. They are infantry. They are also jump.

Spoiler:

Jump units therefore share two
sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry
would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.

That's a very high horse you have there what breed is it? I'm currently at work so don't have the BRB on me however I believe it is in Vehicles > Transports > Transport capacity > second paragraph.

You have permission for Infantry to be carried. Do you have permission for Jump units to be carried?

Page and graph.

So were in the rules does it explicitly say jump cannot embark. To my knowledge it says only infantry can. Well under the rules for jump infantry it tells you to treat them as infantry and jump for rules purposes, they just have the bulky rule (so obvious rai they are meant to able to embark, or thered be no point to the bulky rule...)
Sorry maybe im just using my brain, but it seems pretty clear cut. Jump/jet are just sub-types added to the main unit type of infantry, just with some modifiers to their rules. It doesnt vhange the fact they are still infantry. I hope no one tries to play like this, im pretty sure id just pick my models up and go home if someone tried to pull this crap in a game...seriously with all the actual broken rules in this game do the rule lawyers have to actively misinterpret the few working rules just to have something new to fight over?