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col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Show me where Jump units have permission to be carried. You have to satisfy both sets of rules. Or can models charge from an Assault Vehicle the turn they arrive from reserves?

See Nilok's post above yours. The points have been covered in this thread.

Hand waving away is not "covering" them

No, it would not break jump MC et al. Claiming so does not make it true.

 Nilok wrote:

A proper programmer would try, however, as programming is usually done by many people that can not always be the case depending how the other people code the program. In this case, Games Workshop did not 'code' the game in such a sensible way.
This would be similar to someone coding the Embark class to rely on something in the Movement phase class, then the guy working on the Deployment class wouldn't be able to use the Embark class without also loading the Movement phase class and all of its required classes and instead is forced to make a work around based on the legal carry capacity of the vehicle, which would be the flags for Infantry and less than or equal to the Transport Capacity.

True, not arguing that GWs writing is loss poor and the software wouldn't compile to save a life.

But has already been pointed out, they ignore their own rules often enough for precedence to allow it.

Your argument for having a max sized squad of Crusaders is a fallacy. It is undermined by the fact they exceed the maximum Transport Capacity of the vehicle which has nothing to do with embarking, so they could not even be legally deployed or embarked there, regardless of which side of the argument you are on.

Only if you didn't read the referenced material. Deploying in to a Transport must respect Transport Capacity, being embarked in Reserves under the combined unit rules doesn't say anything about having to follow Transport Capacity. "Embarked" is just a flag to you after all, and doesn't care about embarking rules and restrictions.

So your argument is to ignore the rule stated the clearest in this discussion, "Models can only voluntarily embark or disembark in the Movement phase." If you are going to follow RAW, which it sounds like you have been arguing, as closely as possible, you are actually breaking the rule since there is no Movement phase, or even movement during deployment. If that is what you are really arguing, you could just as easily say you could embark in the Shooting Phase by using a Run move if you are ignore that rule.

Closer to the point about Gate of Infinity, Veil of Darkness, and Ghostwalk Mantle being able to ignore having to start in Deep Strike Reserves to redoloy themselves via Deep Strike in the middle of the game.

One either has to ignore the restriction or handwave the concept that they go to Deep Strike Reserves for a small segment of time. Except their rules do not tell us to do either.

How this relates to being embarked in deployment is that we handwave the concept that they did embark in the transport pre-battle and ignore the fact that we didn't oversee them do it in a Movement Phase where Zooming Flyers don't have to Zoom.

The idea of embarked units not being able to disembark due to never embarking is a concept wholly constructed by yourself, and is not present in the 'code' of the game, as they state in deployment, "Models can be deployed 'inside' buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their Transport Capacity." Never is it stated that they 'embark', but instead are simply there. As I have stated, it is possible to be embarked without ever embarking in the real world.

No, that's not what I said.

I have said that "deploying in to" and "carried by" have as much relationship to "embarked" as to "embark".

The relationship between being "deployed in to" a Transport to "embarked" is never stated and just handwaved in to position by you and com_impact, without ever providing a quote to support this.

The Disembark rules state that a unit embarked may disembark from the Transport, but it gives no permission to do so for a unit "deployed in to" a Transport.

That all said, you have never said if you are arguing RAW or HIWPI and would like to know your actual stance outside of this thought exercise.

I have stated it already, but since you have already confused some of my statements, you probably ignored or confused those, too.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Show me where Jump units have permission to be carried. You have to satisfy both sets of rules. Or can models charge from an Assault Vehicle the turn they arrive from reserves?

See Nilok's post above yours. The points have been covered in this thread.

Hand waving away is not "covering" them

No, it would not break jump MC et al. Claiming so does not make it true.

Perhaps you could elaborate on "hand waving".

Transport Capacity wrote:A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit

Monster Hunter wrote:A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls all failed To Wound rolls against Monstrous Creatures.

By making the argument that Transport Capacity, which specifies Infantry, only affects Infantry and not also Jump Infantry and Jet Pack Infantry, even though they are also told to follow the rules for Infantry, causes other rules that also do no call out both types to not affect them as well.
In the above example, since Monster Hunter does not give expressed permission to re-roll against Jump units, even though a Jump Monstrous Creatures follow all the rules Monstrous Creatures, it would not be affected by Monster Hunter. This would also be true for Infantry and other types.

The opposite reading of the rule would also occur, and anything outside the Jump and Jet Pack Unit Type profiles would have to specify Jump Infantry, Jump Monstrous Creature, etc, in order to be affected by said rule since there isn't permission for Infantry to be effected by it when it calls for Jump. The only rules that could affect them would be rules that affect all models or units, anything that specifies simply Infantry or Jump instead of also Jump Infantry by this argument could not affect Jump Infantry.

It really just causes a massive mess of the rules, which at the moment, I don't have time to go through the BRB to find the best examples.

Incorrect, as it receives permission to operate.

You lack permission to carry a jump unit. You have confirmed it. You cannot deny this further.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Incorrect, as it receives permission to operate.

You lack permission to carry a jump unit. You have confirmed it. You cannot deny this further.

I have confirmed nothing, I have simply shown what the logical conclusion of your argument is.

It is still up to you to show that it can affect a Jump Monstrous Creature as your argument disallows it.

Either Jump Infantry have permission to be carried since they follow the rules for Infantry and a Jump Monstrous Creature can be affected by Monster Hunter, or neither can.

Nilok, do Jump units (in other words models that have the Jump unit type) have unrestricted permission to be carried on transports?

It's a simple yes or no question.

Jump infantry cannot go inside dedicated transports unless the rules for it specifically say they can. In the BRB it says they can't. And in the necron codex it doesn't say they can. It's as simple as that. I don't understand the argument. Yes it says you can't take a transport, ok cool take one and it flys around empty.

@happyjew no unit in the game has unrestricted permission even infantry.

@nos Please post the rules you are using to make such statements. Without doing so, considering your single line answers, it does not actually lead to anything resembling a conversation. Plus it's in the tenets.

What does the line "The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it)." mean to you?

Gravmyr wrote:
What does the line "The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it)." mean to you?

It tells me that the only limitation placed on the model by being considered a Dedicated Transport according to the rules is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it). It doesn't tell me to remove other limitations on the model due to other reasons (e.g., being a Transport, etc.).

 Happyjew wrote:
Nilok, do Jump units (in other words models that have the Jump unit type) have unrestricted permission to be carried on transports?

It's a simple yes or no question.

To phrase the question like that is to ask "Is the Earth flat or a perfect sphere?" or "You cannot turn on a red light in the US, yes or no?" Both answers are wrong.

Do Jump Infantry have permission to be carried? Yes.
Do Jump Monstrous Creatures have permission to be carried? No.
Do Jump Infantry have a restriction from embarking? Yes.

 Nilok wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Nilok, do Jump units (in other words models that have the Jump unit type) have unrestricted permission to be carried on transports?

It's a simple yes or no question.

To phrase the question like that is to ask "Is the Earth flat or a perfect sphere?" or "You cannot turn on a red light in the US, yes or no?" Both answers are wrong.

Do Jump Infantry have permission to be carried? Yes.
Do Jump Monstrous Creatures have permission to be carried? No.
Do Jump Infantry have a restriction from embarking? Yes.

Yes or no, is there a rule in the main rulebook that allows Jump units to be carried by transports?

 Happyjew wrote:

Yes or no, is there a rule in the main rulebook that allows Jump Infantry to be carried by transports?

Fixed that for you. The answer is yes. You need to stick to asking questions that are relevant to praetorians on night scythes.

I have a question for you. What is the unit type of Triarch Praetorians as indicated in the Necron codex - jump unit or jump infantry?

@ghaz Which is a RAI argument which is probably true. Unfortunately what they wrote is that the only limitation of the dedicated transport is that only the unit that took the transport can start in it. If you apply any other limitation it is no longer the only limitation.

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Yes or no, is there a rule in the main rulebook that allows Jump Infantry to be carried by transports?

Fixed that for you. The answer is yes. You need to stick to asking questions that are relevant to praetorians on night scythes.

I have a question for you. What is the unit type of Triarch Praetorians as indicated in the Necron codex - jump unit or jump infantry?

They are Jump Infantry. Which means they follow the rules for Jump units as well as the rules for Infantry.

Infantry has rulebook permission to be carried by transports. Do Jump units?

 Happyjew wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Yes or no, is there a rule in the main rulebook that allows Jump Infantry to be carried by transports?

Fixed that for you. The answer is yes. You need to stick to asking questions that are relevant to praetorians on night scythes.

I have a question for you. What is the unit type of Triarch Praetorians as indicated in the Necron codex - jump unit or jump infantry?

They are Jump Infantry. Which means they follow the rules for Jump units as well as the rules for Infantry.

Infantry has rulebook permission to be carried by transports. Do Jump units?

Jump Infantry has permission to be carried by transports.

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Yes or no, is there a rule in the main rulebook that allows Jump Infantry to be carried by transports?

Fixed that for you. The answer is yes. You need to stick to asking questions that are relevant to praetorians on night scythes.

I have a question for you. What is the unit type of Triarch Praetorians as indicated in the Necron codex - jump unit or jump infantry?

They are Jump Infantry. Which means they follow the rules for Jump units as well as the rules for Infantry.

Infantry has rulebook permission to be carried by transports. Do Jump units?

Jump Infantry has permission to be carried by transports.

So you claim. However you've yet to show rulebook permission for Jump units to be carried by transports.

 Happyjew wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Yes or no, is there a rule in the main rulebook that allows Jump Infantry to be carried by transports?

Fixed that for you. The answer is yes. You need to stick to asking questions that are relevant to praetorians on night scythes.

I have a question for you. What is the unit type of Triarch Praetorians as indicated in the Necron codex - jump unit or jump infantry?

They are Jump Infantry. Which means they follow the rules for Jump units as well as the rules for Infantry.

Infantry has rulebook permission to be carried by transports. Do Jump units?

Happyjew, instead of trying to force the other people in the discussion to answer a question the way you want them to, explain your point and present your evidence and rules.

Edit:

 Happyjew wrote:

So you claim. However you've yet to show rulebook permission for Jump units to be carried by transports.

Nor have you shown that there is a restriction for Jump Infantry to be carried like they are restricted from embarking.
If you are applying a restriction to Jump Infantry from being carried, you are not following the rules of Infantry that grant them permission to be carried.

Gravmyr wrote:
@ghaz Which is a RAI argument which is probably true. Unfortunately what they wrote is that the only limitation of the dedicated transport is that only the unit that took the transport can start in it. If you apply any other limitation it is no longer the only limitation.

You're still trying to make 'the only limitation of a dedicated transport' mean more than it does. It's still a Unit, its still a Vehicle, its still a Transport, and its still a Dedicated Transport. Each gives the unit certain benefits, restrictions, limitations, etc.. The "... only limitation of a Dedicated Transport..." doesn't mean it removes the limitations for being a Unit, or a Vehicle, or a Transport. If I were to say that the only limitation of a weapon with the 'Get's Hot!' rule was that it could wound the bearer on a 'To Hit' roll of a 1 mean the weapon now had infinite range? No, it wouldn't.

Then you are redefining the definition of only. If something is the only something there cannot be others.

This is so cool that you guys have figured out that I can use pg. 82 to fit a 15 man unit of Death Company plus some IC into a Drop pod. The only limitation on it is that it can only carry the unit it was selected with ... AWESOME SAUCEM.
Now let me ask this ... if I were to bring say a 8 man squad of Death Company that had no Jump packs that took a DP as a DT, then threw Lemartes in there as an IC (He does have a JP) would you allow it?

RAW yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In this case it also points out that not only is there RAW backing but there is no reason to assume anything other than the intent of giving them a DT is so they can use it.

Gravmyr wrote:
Then you are redefining the definition of only. If something is the only something there cannot be others.

Where does it say that its only a 'Dedicated Transport'? It doesn't. It doesn't stop being a vehicle, or else we wouldn't have the rules telling us how it interacts with other units in the Shooting or Assault phase. It doesn't stop being a Transport, or else we wouldn't have rules for how friendly units interact with the dedicated transport. The rules say "... the only limitation of a dedicated transport..." and the only limitation that comes from being a dedicated transport is "... that only the unit that took the transport can start in it..." It doesn't remove limitations due to other reasons. You're position would make dedicated transports invulnerable and able to transport across the table at will as not being able to do so would be 'limitations'. So what are you using to decide not being able to carry Jump Infantry is a 'limitation' and not being invulnerable or unable to be anywhere on the table that you want it to be at isn't a 'limitation'?

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
This is so cool that you guys have figured out that I can use pg. 82 to fit a 15 man unit of Death Company plus some IC into a Drop pod. The only limitation on it is that it can only carry the unit it was selected with ... AWESOME SAUCEM.
Now let me ask this ... if I were to bring say a 8 man squad of Death Company that had no Jump packs that took a DP as a DT, then threw Lemartes in there as an IC (He does have a JP) would you allow it?

Actually, if you go by their interpretations, if the Transport is in Reserve, it doesn't even need to be Dedicated to be able to ignore the restrictions for Embarking. You just consider the unit "embarked" and there you go, it's in. "Embark" doesn't haven any active relationship with "embarked" after all, nor do any of "embark"'s synonyms.

Oddly enough, in these cases, you could put a Dread Knight in the Drop Pod, heck, you could put a C'TAN in a Drop Pod (wouldn't that by fun), since we can ignore all the other rules for embarking and Transport Capacity.

Too bad if the unit is deployed in to a deployed Transport, though. It's not "embarked" so it can't get out unless the Transport Explodes! And, of course, if the unit doesn't embark on its Dedicated Transport, and is just carried by the Transport, the same thing applies, too.

I wonder how a ship's captain or the customs people would feel about you trying to argue this to them, but that's a real world example, and not really useful in this case.

 Ghaz wrote:
So what are you using to decide not being able to carry Jump Infantry is a 'limitation' and not being invulnerable or unable to be anywhere on the table that you want it to be at isn't a 'limitation'?

The case being used is that they don't actually "embark" to do it, which allows them to ignore the restrictions that are associated with the word, such as Transport Capacity's rules that do not allow Jump and Jet Pack Infantry to embark on to Transports in normal situations.

If I tried to do this with one of my old school English teachers, I'd be lucky to end the year with an F.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
This is so cool that you guys have figured out that I can use pg. 82 to fit a 15 man unit of Death Company plus some IC into a Drop pod. The only limitation on it is that it can only carry the unit it was selected with ... AWESOME SAUCEM.
Now let me ask this ... if I were to bring say a 8 man squad of Death Company that had no Jump packs that took a DP as a DT, then threw Lemartes in there as an IC (He does have a JP) would you allow it?

No. Raw, they are still subject to the maximum Troop Capacity of the drop pod. This loophole simply gets around the restriction of embarking, since that is only in the Movement phase.

Nilok wrote:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
This is so cool that you guys have figured out that I can use pg. 82 to fit a 15 man unit of Death Company plus some IC into a Drop pod. The only limitation on it is that it can only carry the unit it was selected with ... AWESOME SAUCEM.
Now let me ask this ... if I were to bring say a 8 man squad of Death Company that had no Jump packs that took a DP as a DT, then threw Lemartes in there as an IC (He does have a JP) would you allow it?

No. Raw, they are still subject to the maximum Troop Capacity of the drop pod. This loophole simply gets around the restriction of embarking, since that is only in the Movement phase.

Actually, considering a unit to be "embarked' while the Transport is in Reserves does not actually state anything regarding Transport Capacity. By the standards which you preach, one can put those 15 man units in to the Drop Pod with ICs, and it doesn't even have to be Dedicated!

Charistoph wrote:

Nilok wrote:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
This is so cool that you guys have figured out that I can use pg. 82 to fit a 15 man unit of Death Company plus some IC into a Drop pod. The only limitation on it is that it can only carry the unit it was selected with ... AWESOME SAUCEM.
Now let me ask this ... if I were to bring say a 8 man squad of Death Company that had no Jump packs that took a DP as a DT, then threw Lemartes in there as an IC (He does have a JP) would you allow it?

No. Raw, they are still subject to the maximum Troop Capacity of the drop pod. This loophole simply gets around the restriction of embarking, since that is only in the Movement phase.

Actually, considering a unit to be "embarked' while the Transport is in Reserves does not actually state anything regarding Transport Capacity. By the standards which you preach, one can put those 15 man units in to the Drop Pod with ICs, and it doesn't even have to be Dedicated!

The rules of Transport Capacity disagree with you.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Actually, considering a unit to be "embarked' while the Transport is in Reserves does not actually state anything regarding Transport Capacity. By the standards which you preach, one can put those 15 man units in to the Drop Pod with ICs, and it doesn't even have to be Dedicated!

The rules of Transport Capacity disagree with you.

Spoiler:

TRANSPORT CAPACITY

Each Transport vehicle has a maximum passenger capacity that can never be exceeded. A
Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent
Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models
equal to the vehicle’s Transport Capacity. The entire unit must be embarked on the
Transport if any part of it is – a unit cannot be partially embarked or be spread across
multiple Transports.

Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet
Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise. Some larger Infantry models count as
more than one model for the purposes of Transport Capacity, and this will be specified in
the model’s rules. Sometimes, there will be constraints on which types of models can
embark upon a particular vehicle, and this will be specified in the unit’s entry. Space
Marine Terminators, for example, cannot embark upon a Rhino or Razorback, although
they can be transported by a Land Raider.

Actually, considering how you and others keep interpreting things, I was actually referencing this:

BRB wrote:Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

Since you keep saying how much things are not actually connected, and considering another's use of just considering a unit as "flagged" "embarked" (which you endorsed), and no mention of Transport Capacity is mentioned here (unlike how "deploying in to" a Transport does), I was actually just taking the next step in the logical progression of this paradigm.

Gravmyr wrote:
@happyjew no unit in the game has unrestricted permission even infantry.

@nos Please post the rules you are using to make such statements. Without doing so, considering your single line answers, it does not actually lead to anything resembling a conversation. Plus it's in the tenets.

What does the line "The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it)." mean to you?

The rules were already posted. The actual rules state that Jump infantry follow the rules for Jump units AND the rules for Infantry.

I am asking where Jump Units are given permission to be *carried*. Page and graph. We know Infantry units may be carried, that is not permission for Jump Units who happen to be Jump Infantry units to be carried. Otherwise I WILL be assaulting having arrived frmo reserve, as long as I disembarked from an Assault Vehicle that turn.

Enough handwaving please, page and graph.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
@happyjew no unit in the game has unrestricted permission even infantry.

@nos Please post the rules you are using to make such statements. Without doing so, considering your single line answers, it does not actually lead to anything resembling a conversation. Plus it's in the tenets.

What does the line "The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it)." mean to you?

The rules were already posted. The actual rules state that Jump infantry follow the rules for Jump units AND the rules for Infantry.

I am asking where Jump Units are given permission to be *carried*. Page and graph. We know Infantry units may be carried, that is not permission for Jump Units who happen to be Jump Infantry units to be carried. Otherwise I WILL be assaulting having arrived frmo reserve, as long as I disembarked from an Assault Vehicle that turn.

Enough handwaving please, page and graph.

I am not hand waving anything.
*Infantry have permission to be carried in Transports.
*Jump Units are not covered.
*Jump Infantry follows all rules of its types: Jump, not covered; Infantry, can be carried.
*Jump Infantry have a special restriction that they cannot embark.

Since Jump Infantry gain the permission from the rule affecting Infantry to be carried by Transports, they can, they do not gain half a permission to be in transports. The way they would be disallowed is if there was a restriction imposed by the Jump type, which there is none for being carried. Instead, the restriction is only for being able to embark.

You also have not refuted that your stance on the rule also states that Jump Monstrous Creatures are immune to rules that affect Monstrous Creatures, such as Monster Hunter, since it also does not mention the Jump type as well. I honestly don't want my Riptides to be immune to things like Bring it Down on top of their resilience.

"*Jump Units are not covered. "

So Jump Units do not have permission to be carried.

I have refuted it. I have permission to wound MCs, that is all I need to take action. You are confused as to how permissions and restrictions work in this game.

Again: you need permiwsison to be carried. Infantry has permission, but Jump Units do not. Therefore Jump Units may not be carried. Jumpt UNits DO EXIST, as the quoted rules prove.

Your argument, entire, is refuted. it has *exactly* the same validity as claiming a unit may assault having arrived from reserve, as long as it disembarked from an Assault Vehicle.