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I don't know. With my list then you could have a 250 unit that could reliably maim a FMC every turn, forcing it to jink or nearly killing it, could just obliterate hordes with a 2+ rerollable and the ability to fire heavy flamers into combat.

I'm greatly in favor of buffing them into a useable unit than just discounting them into viability.

Having them swing fists at I2 would help. Let's look at 1 unit of them assuming they can all take heavies (but only 2 of each)

Sgt-- Long Range Auspex, Power Sword, Storm Bolter
Dude 1 and 2- CML, Power Fist
Dude 3 and 4- Heavy Flamer, Power fist

So, these guys can hot-drop in and dump 2 heavy flamer and 4 frag missile templates on some poor fool. If they get shot at the following turn, they will probably weather it with their 2+ rerollable or 4+ pretty well. If they get assaulted they can wall of death for the overwatch. In their next turn they can shoot again, tearing up tanks, aircraft, or medium infantry, and then assault.

I'd make each terminator a character, as well, for challenge fun.

Or you can start them in your backline where they are a respectable anti-air unit (4 St 8 AP 3 shots with -1 cover every turn) and walk them forward, or warp them forward if you have a lot of ground to cover.

In the context of a white scars army (still a pretty common one, I think) that's a good deal. It gives you a good anti-flyer defense, excellent horde-management option, and viable assault threat all in one package, covering the weakness of a bike army pretty comprehensively.


Can you imagine running a green horde into that? Wall of death overwatch, then you get to eat 2 heavy flamer templates AFTER everyone has piled in, then every terminator is a character, you challenge, and the nobs can either accept, and get splatted by the I2 powerfists, or decline and do nothing. Same deal against gaunts. Nasty.

Martel732 wrote:

But their durability is awful for the cost.

Indeed it is -I've suggested some improvements on my previous post.

 thegreatchimp wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

But their durability is awful for the cost.

Indeed it is -I've suggested some improvements on my previous post.

It's not enough to compete with scatterbikes and Wraiths.

T4 W1 foot troopers need some snazzy stuff to justify fielding them at the price terminators come in at. Without changing their weapons significantly, there's almost nothing anyone can propose that will make them worthwhile.

Martel732 wrote:

It's not enough to compete with scatterbikes and Wraiths.

Maybe not, but rather than drastically up-gun termies, you could look at it in 2 other ways: Either that those units enjoy superior firepower becasue it's their perk as the best units their army can field, or that the firepower of those units are OP' and should be nerfed..

 thegreatchimp wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

It's not enough to compete with scatterbikes and Wraiths.

Maybe not, but rather than drastically up-gun termies, you could look at it in 2 other ways: Either that those units enjoy superior firepower becasue it's their perk as the best units their army can field, or that the firepower of those units are OP' and should be nerfed..

But they won't be nerfed. And so everything has to adjust to that reality.

"it's their perk as the best units their army can field"

Guardian jetbikes get scatterlasers. That's a helluva perk for a non-aspect warrior.

 Silverthorne wrote:

 Phiasco II wrote:
So this is a bit of a blend of some of the suggestions I read through. Assaulty Termies are more or less fine. Increase the invo save from termy armor to 4+. Re roll armor saves from weapons with ap4 or worse. Stick to one special weapon per 5 models in shooty termys, but give them access to special issue ammo. Different ammo than what sternguard has access to. Maybe similar vengeance and ignores cover types (but with storm bolter stats of course) but then maybe a 12 inch 3-4 shot rapid fire mode? Definitely no long range ammo type like the sternguard has access to however. This is to highlight the termys focus on close quarter fighting, matching their fluff a bit better imho.

I really like these suggestions. I would have them pick one special ammo type before the game though, no switching on the fly like sternguard, which would keep them a bit unique.

I like rerolling against AP5 and 6 attacks. I think AP4 weapons need a little help, and they aren't that common so I would be willing to seem them negate the reroll.

I'd buff the cyclone and give it split-fire and skyfire. If they can take 2 heavies in a 5 man unit, than that is 4 St 8 AP 3 skyfire shots, which is enough to make almost anything in the game jink.

Give the sergeant a long-range auspex that he can use in addition to his storm bolter. 36" range, otherwise as normal for the auspex.

Make them BS and WS 5. They are the very best veterans, combining the best of both the vanguard and sternguard.

They should be able to forgo movement to get beamed back into ongoing reserves and deepstrike down again like skyleap for swooping hawks.

I'd like to see a heavy flamer guy be able to shoot into close combat instead of making attacks with his fist.

All those buffs would be expensive though, Probably push them up to 55 ppm

I'm really interested in how it is they come to have so very many rules. This on top of their many USRs and their one unique rule against sweeping, they have like half a page of unique rules for stuff they might not even use.

Most of even the really powerful units like wraiths and scatterbikes use rules either that are army-wide or are from rulebook, then they might have a unique rule and a choice of a unique weapon.

Sternguard, for example, mean one identifying rule to me, which is special issue ammunition. It is pretty clean design. It's memorable, it's simple, it requires no tests or note taking, it's easy to look up if you need to, because it's the only rule on the page.

Then also, eight fleshbane shots for 250 points, that get replaced by flamers anyway?

Heavy flamers you can shoot after pile-in moves in close combat. Against Eldar, Orks, Nids, Dark Eldar, Skittari, Guard, Necrons and Tau that's absolutely devastating. That's the majority of armies in the game. On average rolls, you can easily kill 20 models with that (assuming there are even that many bad guys to kill) Considering you probably nuked 8-10 on the drop the turn before the charge happened, (again this is just with the flamers) in one game turn that's two models accounting for 30 enemy infantry, which really fits their background. That's not even counting all the work the missiles and power fists are doing. Against any xenos or light armored humans other than the green tide formation, that unit just won't exist anymore.

They only have 2 rules unique to them, which is not really out of the ordinary.

The CML buffs would be in the armory. Same with the new Heavy Flamer, and the 'terminator storm bolter' or whatever you would like to call it.

Character is just a USR that you would note in the unit composition, it doesn't even take one line of text.

Terminators
4 Dudemans, Infantry, Character, Bulky
1 Veteran Sergeant Dudeman , Infantry, Character, Bulky

Dudemans have Tactical Dreadnought Warsuit. They can upgrade to Carry a CML (0-2) or Terminator Flamer (0-2) for XX pts

Vet Sarge Dudeman has Tactical Dreadnought Warsuit with a power weapon and long range auspex

Admantium Fist-- A unit of terminators can reroll armor saves against any attack with an AP of worse than 4. Their armor also gives them relentless, but prevents sweeping advances.

From the Warp-- Terms have the Deepstrike special rule. Also, in your movement phase they can return to ongoing reserves and redeploy to the battlefield using deepstrike special rules.

That's it. Only 2 special rules on their unit entry. Seems manageable to me. I have no idea what 'tests and note taking' you are referring to, neither are needed.

 Silverthorne wrote:
Heavy flamers you can shoot after pile-in moves in close combat. Against Eldar, Orks, Nids, Dark Eldar, Skittari, Guard, Necrons and Tau that's absolutely devastating. That's the majority of armies in the game. On average rolls, you can easily kill 20 models with that (assuming there are even that many bad guys to kill) Considering you probably nuked 8-10 on the drop the turn before the charge happened, (again this is just with the flamers) in one game turn that's two models accounting for 30 enemy infantry, which really fits their background. That's not even counting all the work the missiles and power fists are doing. Against any xenos or light armored humans other than the green tide formation, that unit just won't exist anymore.

They only have 2 rules unique to them, which is not really out of the ordinary.

The CML buffs would be in the armory. Same with the new Heavy Flamer, and the 'terminator storm bolter' or whatever you would like to call it.

Character is just a USR that you would note in the unit composition, it doesn't even take one line of text.

Terminators
4 Dudemans, Infantry, Character, Bulky
1 Veteran Sergeant Dudeman , Infantry, Character, Bulky

Dudemans have Tactical Dreadnought Warsuit. They can upgrade to Carry a CML (0-2) or Terminator Flamer (0-2) for XX pts

Vet Sarge Dudeman has Tactical Dreadnought Warsuit with a power weapon and long range auspex

Admantium Fist-- A unit of terminators can reroll armor saves against any attack with an AP of worse than 4. Their armor also gives them relentless, but prevents sweeping advances.

From the Warp-- Terms have the Deepstrike special rule. Also, in your movement phase they can return to ongoing reserves and redeploy to the battlefield using deepstrike special rules.

That's it. Only 2 special rules on their unit entry. Seems manageable to me. I have no idea what 'tests and note taking' you are referring to, neither are needed.

yeah we should totally have a single unit of Terminators killing entire ork squads in a single turn.....makes sense.

Martel732 wrote:


But they won't be nerfed. And so everything has to adjust to that reality.

"it's their perk as the best units their army can field"

Guardian jetbikes get scatterlasers. That's a helluva perk for a non-aspect warrior.

Yeah I know, but when I say best, I don't neccesarily mean elite choices, just that there are obviously a handful of units in each army that shine (and debatably are OP'd), for example Grey Hunters before the last codex. . If they're OP to the point that they're broken then I can see the problem, having to wait at least 2 years or more for a new codex to restore some balance.

So assuming we're talking about implementing non official rules, then I don't see how improving a pile of other units to match a small number of OP'd units is a solution. Particularly as improving them will then have the knock-on effect of making them OP'd compared to other choices. Would it not be a lot simpler to just take the few offending units to begin with, and put them back in line with everything else, whether that's through stat changes, loadout restrictions or points increases? You know what I mean?

" then I don't see how improving a pile of other units to match a small number of OP'd units is a solution. "

If everything is OP, then nothing is OP. If you don't match the current top dog units, then those units will continue to dominate.

"just that there are obviously a handful of units in each army that shine"

Almost every unit in C:Eldar is better than terminators.

Martel732 wrote:
" then I don't see how improving a pile of other units to match a small number of OP'd units is a solution. "

If everything is OP, then nothing is OP. If you don't match the current top dog units, then those units will continue to dominate.

"just that there are obviously a handful of units in each army that shine"

Almost every unit in C:Eldar is better than terminators.

Yes Martel but I reitterate, it's still a relatively small percentage of units in the overall game that is breaking that power curve. So you move the ones back down that are too powerful, not move everything else up to match them. If I have 4 hobs on cooking the same thing, and one of them is set too high, I turn the offending hob down, I don't turn the other 3 up...if only because it's a far simpler solution.

As discussed I am indeed in favour of enhancing termies durability majorly and firepower somewhat, because they're clearly lagging below that power curve for some time, but I don't believe the solution is having to give them all assault cannons as basic, or suchlike (not that I'm saying you suggested that, but I've seen that suggestion and crazier ones crop up on previous threads). Besides if you go that way you end up with a cascading effect, wherein a number of other units will then be poor in comparison to the upgunned terminators...and eventually people will be crying out for grots to get stat increases. And then we'll have come full circle, and it'll all have been pointless...

Actually I did suggest all assault cannons. Which isn't crazy compared to scatter bikes.

See, the problem is that the Eldar players payed 50 bucks to get their codex, and they will NOT play with a toned down scatterbike, at least as far as I can tell. I've already asked my play group if Eldar will self-nerf and they won't.

The sad part is that all-assault cannon terminators are STILL inferior to scatterbikes. That's how bad terminators are. And that's why most of the suggestions on here leave terminators as unusable crap units.

" it's still a relatively small percentage of units in the overall game that is breaking that power curve."

Not true for terminators. They are one of the worst units in the game. And the suggestions on here isn't fixing that fact. Too many points for a slow T4 W1 model, no matter how many bells and whistles you put on it. Doesn't help that unassisted deep strike sucks hard as well.

"And then we'll have come full circle, and it'll all have been pointless.."

Slippery slope fallacy. Math tells you when to stop. This game isn't playtested like Starcraft, so I don't really hold out much hope. Bring on the assault cannons; it's closer to fair than stormbolters. And that's the best we can do here.

Martel732 wrote:
Actually I did suggest all assault cannons. Which isn't crazy compared to scatter bikes.

See, the problem is that the Eldar players payed 50 bucks to get their codex, and they will NOT play with a toned down scatterbike, at least as far as I can tell. I've already asked my play group if Eldar will self-nerf and they won't.

Ok, understand your dilemma. But why do you believe said Eldar players would agree to non-official buffing of non-eldar units any more than they'd agree to non-official toning down their own units -there's an equal weight to both those motions from my point of view -they both result in the same thing -restoration of balance and therefore equally detrimental to the player who has the more powerful codex.

The solution is of course for GW to playtest properly, there's no excuses for some of these imbalances to exist in the first palce. They could at least make a comprehensive attempt to address them in the errata they release for each dex.

It's psychology. Most people are far more willing to have other lists brought up to their level than have their codex get nerfed down.

Martel732 wrote:
It's psychology. Most people are far more willing to have other lists brought up to their level than have their codex get nerfed down.

well that and the fact that nobody ever got there list buffed up to the same level as the eldar...ever

New proposal after thinking over things:

SB to Assault 3 as previouslty suggested.

Invul increase to 4++. While this makes them more resistant than medium tanks against certain weapons, I don't think it'll rock the boat too much. it's necessary to provide some protection against plasma and other cheap AP2 because 5++ just isn't cutting it. To keep the storm shield viable in light of the increased TDA invul save, Storm shield confers hammer of wrath in addition to 3++.

My first thoughts were to increase armour save 2+.but re-roll failed saves. This provides a 100% increase in resistance to small arms, which is fitting. However...it's too OP because it would really screw over autocannon, krak missiles etc, and that's undesirable. Therefore I would suggest. Terminator Armour "Against any weapon of AP 5 or less, a failed armour save may be re-rolled."
Points adjusted as needed. I'm no math-hammerist, so I'll leave it to those who know best...

You realize that rolling 2 dice and picking the highest is mathematically the same as just re rolling failed dice right?

Martel, please stop.
Yes, some might not accept certain nerfs and such but if that's a reason to not bother then that sort of logic could be used to discredit any idea in the this subforum. Honestly it sounds like you're more just looking for an excuse to complain about Eldar...

Any, on-topic!
Well, dropping points cost is always an option. Also I had been thinking it'd be good to let Deep Striking units choose whether they want to Shoot or Assault (either/or and chosen for the entire squad), maybe an additional buff for Terminators specifically would be giving them a rule that lets them do BOTH on Deep Strike?

Onto specifics:
Sergeant should definitely get another attack and be able to replace his Power Sword (either with other Power Weapons, or with anything on the Melee Weapons list, not sure which), along with getting an additional Attack in his profile.
BS5/WS5 would be handy, maybe they should get Strength/Toughness 5 too? (Note: this would make Power Fist./Chainfist/Thunder Hammer attacks S10)
Possibly give them Split Fire like DW Termies get now. DW Termies could then get a better version of it (Maybe they get to just freely split their fire however they want like you apparently could in First Edition? Though that could be OP)
Better invulnerable with Storm Shield buff sounds cool too.
Maybe give them a better array of Heavy Weapons? Perhaps they could keep the current ones and add in Lascannons, Multi-Meltas, Grav Cannons and so on?
Maybe also let the Sergeant replace his Storm Bolter with a Special Weapon, though I'm a little split on that.
2 Heavy Weapons per 5-man squad could be something.

Now, I also had some some rather crazy ideas that would almost certainly be stupidly OP, but might as well post 'em in case they inspire something more reasonable:
2 Wounds!
EVERYONE gets to replace their Storm Bolter with a Special Weapon!
Let them ignore Unwieldy!
EVERYONE gets another Attack (probably meaning +2 for Sarge)!

Well, those could be good to prove a point, I suppose. If someone claims Termies can't be made good no matter what, house-rule in all this gak and they'll probably change their tune (then again that would be a remarkably ignorant thing to say).

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
You realize that rolling 2 dice and picking the highest is mathematically the same as just re rolling failed dice right?

Right, must have been a bit tired when I wrote that post! Ammending now.

Some people really focus on the wrong part of the post. Eldar are a convenient whipping boy but we could look at many units that embarrass terminators.

Yes we can shotgun a bunch of rules onto terminators but the more you add on the harder it is to balance. Increasing their firepower is the simplest and most effective fix.

What if we make the base terminator invul save a 4+ and made stormshields allow to reroll that save instead of boosting it to a 3+?

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
What if we make the base terminator invul save a 4+ and made stormshields allow to reroll that save instead of boosting it to a 3+?

That would work, 4++ rerollable is actually better than 3++ but not quite as good as 2++ so that's about right,
Only issue is it might cause shenanigans with anything that might raise their Invul save higher, maybe add a caveat that the reroll it gives is always 4+ regardless of what the actual save is?

Tactical terminators would still be terrible, even with a 4+ invuln. You are not fixing the fact that they are W1 T4 armed with popguns.

Well, if you're so obsessed with that element, how about my suggestions?
Though by the sounds of it, you wouldn't be satisfied unless it was the really OP ones I put on the end...

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
What if we make the base terminator invul save a 4+ and made stormshields allow to reroll that save instead of boosting it to a 3+?

That's an interesting suggestion, but bear in mind that this ruling presumably applies to all storm shields, including those on non TDA models, so have to keep specific storm shield stats in mind. Also it might make termies a bit too resistant to heavy weaponry.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Well, if you're so obsessed with that element, how about my suggestions?
Though by the sounds of it, you wouldn't be satisfied unless it was the really OP ones I put on the end...

"EVERYONE gets to replace their Storm Bolter with a Special Weapon! "

This is all that's necessary. And compared to what is in the game right now, it's not OP, just very good. When was the last time loyalist terminators were "very good"? Never. Terminators can gain a lot of durability by being able to actually kill opposing models at range. It also allows them to deep strike in and actually do something that turn.

^That's kinda one of the crazy OP ones, not totally certain it would actually be a reasonable choice, I put it in the second list for a reason.

And I'm surprised that's the one that struck you as opposed to them being T5 W2, considering your complaints about their defensive stats.
Honestly I kinda expected you might've said all my craziest suggestions would've just barely made them usable since you seem to kinda have high expectations for unit power levels.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
^That's kinda one of the crazy OP ones, not totally certain it would actually be a reasonable choice, I put it in the second list for a reason.

And I'm surprised that's the one that struck you as opposed to them being T5 W2, considering your complaints about their defensive stats.
Honestly I kinda expected you might've said all my craziest suggestions would've just barely made them usable since you seem to kinda have high expectations for unit power levels.

T5 W2 is too much like a centurion, and they still would have terrible ranged out put, making them very ignorable. Also, they don't contribute the turn they deep strike . If they all have assault cannons, they are hard to ignore and have an impact the turn they arrive via deep strike. The stormbolter is really the true achilles heel of the terminator, not their staying power.

Frankly, units like Wraiths and TWC annoy me because they are the special snowflake units that get to have durability in a game of making people pick up squads wholesale. Trying to give units durability in this game is too likely to break them like Wraiths and TWC, imo.

And 5 X assault cannons is not crazy OP given that Eldar can TROOPS with 10X scatterlasers for abotu the same price.

The EASIEST thing to do....is BUFF the STORM BOLTER.

Yes...I realize you can mount SB on rhinos and stuff but people don't do that...know why? Cause they are bad. SB in genreal needs a reason to be taken!

What does a SB do for ANY unit that takes it. It allows you to take 1 more shot into an enemy before you assault it! At the cost of a bonus attack in CC! It's hardly a buff! The only thing SB are good at is 24 inch mobile shooting and I'm sorry - str4 mobile shooting doesn't mean a dang thing in this game.

BUFF ALL SB.
A serious buff. Make them 2/4 salvo str 4 ap5 rending 24". THATS RIGHT. That would make them an excellent weapon. Increase vehical upgrade cost to 10 points to compensate.

Martel732 wrote:T5 W2 is too much like a centurion, and they still would have terrible ranged out put, making them very ignorable. Also, they don't contribute the turn they deep strike . If they all have assault cannons, they are hard to ignore and have an impact the turn they arrive via deep strike. The stormbolter is really the true achilles heel of the terminator, not their staying power.

Frankly, units like Wraiths and TWC annoy me because they are the special snowflake units that get to have durability in a game of making people pick up squads wholesale. Trying to give units durability in this game is too likely to break them like Wraiths and TWC, imo.

Fair enough.

Martel732 wrote:And 5 X assault cannons is not crazy OP given that Eldar can TROOPS with 10X scatterlasers for abotu the same price.

I'm not sure it isn't all that OP, it's really pretty potent, considering that your point is only comparing them to a known game-breaker...
It's also more potent than what I actually meant. I literally meant Special Weapons from the Special Weapons list: Plasma Guns, Meltaguns, Grav-Guns and Flamers. I still only meant 1 (maybe raising it to 2) Terminator Heavy Weapons (Plasma Cannons, Assault Cannons, Heavy Flamers and CMLs) per 5 dudes.

Xenomancers wrote:The EASIEST thing to do....is BUFF the STORM BOLTER.

Yes...I realize you can mount SB on rhinos and stuff but people don't do that...know why? Cause they are bad. SB in genreal needs a reason to be taken!

What does a SB do for ANY unit that takes it. It allows you to take 1 more shot into an enemy before you assault it! At the cost of a bonus attack in CC! It's hardly a buff! The only thing SB are good at is 24 inch mobile shooting and I'm sorry - str4 mobile shooting doesn't mean a dang thing in this game.

BUFF ALL SB.
A serious buff. Make them 2/4 salvo str 4 ap5 rending 24". THATS RIGHT. That would make them an excellent weapon. Increase vehical upgrade cost to 10 points to compensate.

I wouldn't be opposed to that, also helps the one on my Vindicator! But are you sure 10 points is enough? Kinda sounds like a massive bargain for Salvo 2/4 Rending, maybe 15 or 20 would be better.