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On the subject of assault cannon, that's another thing that needs addressing -they're too too overpowered in the anti-vehicle department. From what I recall of reading some mathhammer threads, they're statistically Better than a lascannon against most armour values. Something's not right there. Maybe they should go down to 3 shots, or lose a point of strength.

"Recall that the general consensus is that scatterbikes are, themselves, OP"

That's true, but I'm coming to the realization that every unit in this game that gets stuff done is labeled as "OP" by someone. Grav bikers? OP. Grav cents? OP. Wraiths? OP. TWC? OP? And now, AC terminators? OP. So what can those units be effective, but not terminators? That's the double standard I'm seeing here.

"But, I think heavy bolters plus special issue ammo, or at least some special issue ammo, are a reasonable compromise. "

The terminators don't get enough shots for the special issue ammo to be a thing to me. However, a 36" s5 gun has some potential, I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thegreatchimp wrote:
On the subject of assault cannon, that's another thing that needs addressing -they're too too overpowered in the anti-vehicle department. From what I recall of reading some mathhammer threads, they're statistically Better than a lascannon against most armour values. Something's not right there. Maybe they should go down to 3 shots, or lose a point of strength.

They are only slightly better at doing damage with half the range, over all, they are inferior at anti-vehicle, because you need a "6" to do anything to AV 12 and be within 24". I find fishing for "6"s with limited shots (usually only 4) to be a good way to lose quickly. If scatterlasers were rending, I'd completely agree with your assessment, because of the range and the Eldar'sability to mass them up. THe Imperium is actually terrible at getting AC into the field on effective platforms. That's another reason I'd push for AC terminators.

Bharring wrote:
1) Its 3/9 for 3 banshees. Its 2/9 per shot, or 4/9 per Termie. So at points parity, its 3:4, in Termies favor. Before CT or Formation bonuses.

2) Banshees need to get the charge to get 45 total attacks. Normal combat is 30. So let's see what happens if they run in:
T1, Termies get first salvo, obviously. Kills 4/9 per Termie, so 2+ eat it. At 15 Banshees (2-3 units), at least one unit now needs an LD check
Banshees? They need to cross 12" by BFing *towards* the Termies in order to shoot. 13 Banshees kill 1.5 Termies.
3.5 Termies move up and shoot back. Kill nearly 2. In total, EV of 11 left. Now they have a < 6" charge. Odds are small that Overwatch does anything, but we'll claim only 3 make it.
Banshees strike first. 11x2x(2/3)(1/3)(1/6). 22 attacks, killing 1 for every 27 attacks (assuming formation). Let's say one bites it.
2 Termies have 6 attacks on the charge. 2x3x(1/2)(5/6)(1). 6 attacks at 5/12 kills/attack. 2.5 Banshees bite it.

Even with CWE Formation, no CT or formation for Termies, Termies win combat by 2.5: <1.

But wait! Eldar Shenanigans! Of course, Banshees could ensure they get the charge! Sure, but it means giving Termies at least 2 rounds of shooting before they even get to shoot. So:
T1 - 5 Termies kill 2+
T2 - 5 Termies kill 2+
T3 - 10 Banshees kill 1
-CC - 3x10x(2/3)(1/3)(1/6) = 30/27 dead Termies. 1 more dies.
-Rebuttle - 3x2x(1/2)(5/6)(1) = 30/12, or 2.5 dead Banshees.

Oddly the same numbers either way.

But 5 Termies beat 15 Banshees.

(14 Banshees are a few more points than 5 Termies.)

So if we stock things in Banshees favor, Termies still win.

1. The fact that Terminators with the IF bonus kill about 2.5 Banshees and a similarly priced Banshee squad kills two Terminators, in shooting, even though they're a melee unit, doesn't boggle your mind a little? Terminators are supposed to be a shooting squad. They're about as good at it as a Banshee. Saying the Terminator is better at shooting almost says nothing!
2. AND this is Banshees going against a supposedly non-optimal target. So here they are going against Terminators, a unit you think is decent at melee, and either coming out on top or at least close to it. An Exarch with an Executioner kills almost one Terminator per round.

You act as though you're impressed with the Terminators when in fact you should be shocked that Banshees are better than you thought!

Huh? Special issue ammo on heavy bolters wouldn't be useful? Heck, if it's good on Sternguard, it'd be great with three times the range and one more shot... (At least, if we're assuming they're all Heavy 3 instead of Rapid-Fire, and why not?)

jade_angel wrote:
Huh? Special issue ammo on heavy bolters wouldn't be useful? Heck, if it's good on Sternguard, it'd be great with three times the range and one more shot... (At least, if we're assuming they're all Heavy 3 instead of Rapid-Fire, and why not?)

Sorry, I didn't realize you were putting special ammo in the heavy bolters. I thought it was in the stormbolters still. Ignore that comment, then. Come to think of it, hellfire was originally a heavy bolter round in 2nd ed.

Actually, I like special ammo heavy bolters better than ACs for this purpose. Especially because its another way to get ignore cover tech into a list.

Fun Fact to show how bad Terminator shooting is.

When Striking Scorpions and Terminators shoot each other, they both kill about 1.5 of each. This is for 9 Scorpions + Exarch and 5 Terminators with anything but IF Tactics, and assuming the Scorpions don't have cover to take advantage of their Stealth + Shrouded.
I didn't factor in a Plasma Grenade but I assume it wouldn't do much.

How is 4 shots needing a 6 worse than 1 shot needing a 3? Same EV of hurting it, except the AC is all pens, the LC is 3/4 pens. AC beats Lascannon at HP'ing *all* AVs.

Similarly priced Banshee squad:
14x1x(2/3)(1/3)(1/6)
+ 14x1x(2/3)(1/6)(2/3) = 14x(1/27 + 2/29) = 14/9. Or just about 1.5 Termies for a few more points than 5 Termies.

If Banshees can keep within 12" all game and pass an LD check almost every round, without ever being charged, sure, they can win. If they get charged, they still get destroyed. If they charge they get destroyed. And Termies get 1-2 rounds of shooting before Banshees are in range.

This is certainly a worst case target for Banshees. A bad target for Termies, too. But not nearly as bad as for the Banshees. My point isn't that this shows them to be balanced. My point is that there *are* units that Termies beat.

Additionally, Scorpions lose Shrouded as soon as they shoot. They also lack range (12"), but can close better than Banshees due to Infiltrate.

Finally, 14 Scorpions are needed before they average killing 1.5 Termies. And that is 238 pts, I think, compared to 175 pts for 5 Termies.

Seriously. Please try to be accurate.

"My point is that there *are* units that Termies beat. "

But not any units that people actually use.

"How is 4 shots needing a 6 worse than 1 shot needing a 3? Same EV of hurting it, except the AC is all pens, the LC is 3/4 pens. AC beats Lascannon at HP'ing *all* AVs. "

I think that's right, actually, except the range still sucks. Personally I think this speaks to the weakness of the LC in 7th ed more than the strength of the AC.

Martel732 wrote:
How?

By dismissing and shutting down any suggestion that doesn't fit your narrow and stupid demands.

Martel732 wrote:
Nobody ever explained why S4 is good. They just gave proposals that left the terminator with a S4 shooting attack. Unacceptable.

They don't have to. Many things have S4 and are useful. S4 has a use. It can shoot at and hurt things.
The only thing unacceptable is you dismissing anything that doesn't reach an arbitrary number.

Martel732 wrote:
Then you need to actually make changes that buff their firepower, not put bells and whistles on the crappy ass stormbolter.

That's what they are doing, the fact that you dismiss them as "bells and whistles" because they're not a ing Assault Cannon is why your input is strictly worthless and harmful to this discussion.

Martel732 wrote:
Still S4. Won't generate enough wounds for a 35-40 pt model. You might be right that everyone else thinks its fine, but no one has explained WHY S4 shooting is okay on such an expensive model. Because it isn't, as outlined by my sternguard example above.

That's because your idea of what they should be able to do for their cost is set at "game-breaker" rather than "fairly reasonable", as such it is completely useless to this discussion.
They don't need to explain why it's okay to you, you need to realize your ideas are out of whack and stop posting here.

Martel732 wrote:
They already did that, and the terminator is still unfieldable. As it stands, I wouldn't pay more than 28 pts for a current tac terminator.

Then they can drop the cost more. You're not seriously under the impression that points cost drops are a one-time deal with a limited maximum drop, are you? Then against that's about as intelligent as anything else you've suggested here.

Martel732 wrote:
You can't stop me from posting on-topic comments that don't insult anyone.

That's not what you're doing, you're taking it off-topic and insulting everyone by dismissing anything that doesn't fit your ridiculous standards.

Martel732 wrote:
So please quit posting messages that tell me not to post.

Not until you stop posting. I can't until you do that, because we need you gone in order to discuss this properly. We can't talk about this with you cutting off every suggestion with "WAAAAAH, IT'S NOT AN ASSAULT CANNON!! ".

Martel732 wrote:
Mathematically speaking, and based off what units are already in the game, the assault cannon thing is not that crazy. It just isn't.

7
Yes it is and this is why:

Martel732 wrote:
"That's true, but I'm coming to the realization that every unit in this game that gets stuff done is labeled as "OP" by someone. Grav bikers? OP. Grav cents? OP. Wraiths? OP. TWC? OP? And now, AC terminators? OP. So what can those units be effective, but not terminators? That's the double standard I'm seeing here.

No. They call those units OP because they ARE overpowered, that's what that term means: TOO powerful, TOO good, should be LESS powerful and LESS good.
They are not something to aspire to.
They are not something to aim for.
They are another problem to be solved.
By making them weaker and worse, not making other things more powerful and better (that doesn't solve the problem, it just adds more).
It's not "those guys can be awesome and Termies can't.", it's "those things are too strong and should be weakened". The simple FACT that you can't grasp this, that you see those as the target, is why everything you say here is completely incorrect.
It is a fundamental mistake and because it imforms all your suggestions nothing you say has any value and none of your thoughts have any merit, as they're completely rotten to the core.
THAT is why you must stop posting, because everything you post is counterproductive and bad. You are harming the thread and need to stop it.

" We can't talk about this with you cutting off every suggestion with "WAAAAAH, IT'S NOT AN ASSAULT CANNON!! ".

From above: "Actually, I like special ammo heavy bolters better than ACs for this purpose."

Reading challenged?

" as they're completely rotten to the core. "

Does that make me like the Grinch? He's a personal hero of mine.

"They don't need to explain why it's okay to you,"

It would actually help a great deal.

"The only thing unacceptable is you dismissing anything that doesn't reach an arbitrary number. "

I assure you it's not arbitrary.

Martel732 wrote:

They are only slightly better at doing damage with half the range, over all, they are inferior at anti-vehicle, because you need a "6" to do anything to AV 12 and be within 24". I find fishing for "6"s with limited shots (usually only 4) to be a good way to lose quickly. If scatterlasers were rending, I'd completely agree with your assessment, because of the range and the Eldar'sability to mass them up. THe Imperium is actually terrible at getting AC into the field on effective platforms. That's another reason I'd push for AC terminators.

Ah, right -I had heard a few veteran players stating they were better vs vehicle full stop, bu I'm not a math-hammerist mysellf so I'll take your word on it.

Bharring wrote:
How is 4 shots needing a 6 worse than 1 shot needing a 3? Same EV of hurting it, except the AC is all pens, the LC is 3/4 pens. AC beats Lascannon at HP'ing *all* AVs.

Similarly priced Banshee squad:
14x1x(2/3)(1/3)(1/6)
+ 14x1x(2/3)(1/6)(2/3) = 14x(1/27 + 2/29) = 14/9. Or just about 1.5 Termies for a few more points than 5 Termies.

If Banshees can keep within 12" all game and pass an LD check almost every round, without ever being charged, sure, they can win. If they get charged, they still get destroyed. If they charge they get destroyed. And Termies get 1-2 rounds of shooting before Banshees are in range.

This is certainly a worst case target for Banshees. A bad target for Termies, too. But not nearly as bad as for the Banshees. My point isn't that this shows them to be balanced. My point is that there *are* units that Termies beat.

Additionally, Scorpions lose Shrouded as soon as they shoot. They also lack range (12"), but can close better than Banshees due to Infiltrate.

Finally, 14 Scorpions are needed before they average killing 1.5 Termies. And that is 238 pts, I think, compared to 175 pts for 5 Termies.

Seriously. Please try to be accurate.

I AM accurate.
9 Scorpions + Exarch is 180 to 175. 5 points off, but shouldn't seriously harm the math.

10 Storm Bolter shots, without IF rerolls, kill about 1.5 Scorpions, I think 1.75 with it. This is without any cover bonus, whether it's just less in value or the Scorpions shot earlier.
10 Shuriken Pistol shots (I didn't feel like doing math for a Plasma Grenade, mostly because I forgot the stats for it), one at BS5, kill about 1.5 Terminators. Slightly less, but that's the math rounded up in my head. So we'll go with 1.3

Come to the charge, for Scorpions. 10 Mandiblaster shots equate to 5 hits and, since they don't need to wound, kill about 2/3-4/5 a Terminator. The actual Scorpion attacks come in, and after the charge we killed about 1.7 Terminators. After that, they killed 4 Terminators total. This means that they actually have a good chance to wipe out a Terminator squad. If they somehow failed combat, it isn't like the Terminators could sweep anyway.

Perhaps make an Assault Cannon similar to a Rotor Cannon?

S 3
AP 4
Salvo 4/5, Rending

10 Scorpions + Exarch shooting

9x(2/3)(1/6)(2/3) +
9x(2/3)(1/3)(1/6) =
9x(3/29) = 9(1/9) = 1 termie/round from Aspect Warriors

Exarch does:
1x(5/6)(1/6)(2/3) +
1x(5/6)(1/3)(1/6) =
(10/108) + (5/108) = 15/108, or 5/36, also known as a *hell* of a lot less than .5.

To get 1.5 Termies dead you need:

1.5 = Nx(1/9)
N = 9*1.5 = 14.5 Scorpions to kill 1.5 Termies in 1 round

246.5 points of Scorpions kill as many Termies as 175 points of Termies kills Scorpions. Kind of misleading, but *that* is the numbers.

In CC, how do 10 scorpions do to 5 Termies(sameish cost)?
Scorpions:
(up to 10)x(1)(1/2)(1/6)< = 10/12 dead Termies
10x2x(1/2)(1/2)(1/6) = 20/24 dead Termies from CC. 40/24 die. Rounding up, 3 Termies are left.
3 termies strike
3x2x(1/2)(5/6)(1) = 30/12, or 2.5 Scorpions die.

Scorpions lose combat by a bit on average. Checking at -1 more likely than not. Probably make it, but if they fail, they eat a round of shooting while retaliating at 25% effectiveness. THen they get charged and eat powerfists in even greater number. So they don't get swept, but losing is still death.

So once again, despite all the claims that OP cause Eldar, when the numbers are run, its not nearly what people are claiming.

""its not nearly what people are claiming."

But in practice, it is totally true. People aren't running scorpions and banshees. They are running scatbikes, WKs, and warp spiders. What do terminator do against those units? Die, that's what.

So it's true that Scorpions and Banshees are wiping Termies off the table, because nobody ever fields Scorpions or Banshees?

What the actual feth man.

Bharring wrote:
So it's true that Scorpions and Banshees are wiping Termies off the table, because nobody ever fields Scorpions or Banshees?

What the actual feth man.

I never claimed that. I never mentioned Scorpions or Banshees in my posts. That was other people's discussions. If my opponents were using banshees and scorpions, I might actually win once in a while against Eldar. I'm talking about terminators against the units that people actually use, not banshees or scorpion. Not that I'd still ever use terminators against Eldar or anyone else for that matter. BA have to field the most broken things they can think of just to compete with Eldar's trash units.

Martel732 wrote:
""its not nearly what people are claiming."

But in practice, it is totally true. People aren't running scorpions and banshees. They are running scatbikes, WKs, and warp spiders. What do terminator do against those units? Die, that's what.

Unless you're claiming that you believe I was saying Scatbikes, WKs, and Warp Spiders are on the same level as Termies - in which case, I don't know what to tell you - then what exactly did you think I meant?

Bharring wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
""its not nearly what people are claiming."

But in practice, it is totally true. People aren't running scorpions and banshees. They are running scatbikes, WKs, and warp spiders. What do terminator do against those units? Die, that's what.

Unless you're claiming that you believe I was saying Scatbikes, WKs, and Warp Spiders are on the same level as Termies - in which case, I don't know what to tell you - then what exactly did you think I meant?

All I'm saying is that you guys doing banshees vs terminators and scorpions vs terminators is useless, because very few Eldar players are using those units. I believe you that the terminators have the advantage there, as those units don't have super awesome ways past 2+ armor. You know what does? A ton of other units in C:Eldar. Terminators aren't useful against other marines because of their army compositions, aren't useful against Tau because of IAs, aren't useful against necrons because of Wraiths and a few other units, etc. Yes, there are some units against which terminators do okay. People don't expose themselves by using those units.

And all that is on top of their miserable shooting.

Bharring wrote:
10 Scorpions + Exarch shooting

9x(2/3)(1/6)(2/3) +
9x(2/3)(1/3)(1/6) =
9x(3/29) = 9(1/9) = 1 termie/round from Aspect Warriors

Exarch does:
1x(5/6)(1/6)(2/3) +
1x(5/6)(1/3)(1/6) =
(10/108) + (5/108) = 15/108, or 5/36, also known as a *hell* of a lot less than .5.

To get 1.5 Termies dead you need:

1.5 = Nx(1/9)
N = 9*1.5 = 14.5 Scorpions to kill 1.5 Termies in 1 round

246.5 points of Scorpions kill as many Termies as 175 points of Termies kills Scorpions. Kind of misleading, but *that* is the numbers.

In CC, how do 10 scorpions do to 5 Termies(sameish cost)?
Scorpions:
(up to 10)x(1)(1/2)(1/6)< = 10/12 dead Termies
10x2x(1/2)(1/2)(1/6) = 20/24 dead Termies from CC. 40/24 die. Rounding up, 3 Termies are left.
3 termies strike
3x2x(1/2)(5/6)(1) = 30/12, or 2.5 Scorpions die.

Scorpions lose combat by a bit on average. Checking at -1 more likely than not. Probably make it, but if they fail, they eat a round of shooting while retaliating at 25% effectiveness. THen they get charged and eat powerfists in even greater number. So they don't get swept, but losing is still death.

So once again, despite all the claims that OP cause Eldar, when the numbers are run, its not nearly what people are claiming.

I already said 1.5 was rounded off in my head, hence the 1.3 I gave right afterwards.

I can also honestly say I haven't a clue where in the world you're getting your numbers. That's an Eldar player for you though.

5/36 is less than *half* the 0,3 you're claiming. Definitely doesn't round to 1.3 even.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Which numbers are confusing you?

I know what numbers are confusing me. The ones where scorpions are attacking a unit that isn't in the enemy army because they wanted a decent list.
I would be more interested in seeing compared numbers against a target that will actually be present, like decurion warriors, harvest wraiths, lychguard, ork boys with a PK nob and mega armor/lucky stikk boss, culexus assassins, scat bikes (good luck catching them,) wraithknights, firebase support cadres, thunderwolf deathstars etc etc.

niv-mizzet wrote:
I know what numbers are confusing me. The ones where scorpions are attacking a unit that isn't in the enemy army because they wanted a decent list.
I would be more interested in seeing compared numbers against a target that will actually be present, like decurion warriors, harvest wraiths, lychguard, ork boys with a PK nob and mega armor/lucky stikk boss, culexus assassins, scat bikes (good luck catching them,) wraithknights, firebase support cadres, thunderwolf deathstars etc etc.

I've already pointed this out, to no avail. There is a major schism between those playing the actual game and those playing Nerfhammer 7th ed. As I stated above, my lists are sucking down 60-100 S6 shots a turn from Eldar. It would be nice to be shooting something meaningful back.

Martel732 wrote:From above: "Actually, I like special ammo heavy bolters better than ACs for this purpose."

Reading challenged?

Nope, just not fooled by you suddenly pretending to compromise.

Martel732 wrote:Does that make me like the Grinch? He's a personal hero of mine.

Nah. more like one of those people you see on the news and such who have no idea what they're talking about but do so anyway.

Martel732 wrote:It would actually help a great deal.

"Help" that is not in any way necessary, or even close to it.

Martel732 wrote:I assure you it's not arbitrary.

It absolutely is. Your favorite game-breaker happens to have a gun with that strength and you saw an option with that strength on Terminators, and thus started demanding it.
As noted by all the people fine with them not all having Assault Cannons.

Martel732 wrote:I've already pointed this out, to no avail. There is a major schism between those playing the actual game and those playing Nerfhammer 7th ed. As I stated above, my lists are sucking down 60-100 S6 shots a turn from Eldar. It would be nice to be shooting something meaningful back.

If we're talking "the actual game", there's no point to ANYTHING in this subforum, this topic included.

NIV,
The context of those numbers is a claim about how Scorpions do vs Termies.

Bharring wrote:
NIV,
The context of those numbers is a claim about how Scorpions do vs Termies.

He's questioning whether either unit would actually be on the table or not.

Well, in that case, no unit regularly beats Termies. Makes it awfully hard to discuss, though.

Bharring wrote:
Well, in that case, no unit regularly beats Termies. Makes it awfully hard to discuss, though.

i think the point he is making is that nobody brings the units you are comparing against termies. The units most commonly used such as scatbikes D scythes, Decurion Necrons and ork boyz all DEVASTATE Terminators. When you compare average units to terminators you start seeing that they get killed every time.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:From above: "Actually, I like special ammo heavy bolters better than ACs for this purpose."

Reading challenged?

Nope, just not fooled by you suddenly pretending to compromise.

I'm going to go with reading challenged TBH. You're going to have to spin awfully hard to convince me that Martel writing that Heavy Bolters with Special Ammo was a better idea means the opposite of what he actually posted.

Another buff would be Heavy Bolters on all of them by default. They MIGHT actually be threatening at that point, though still limited.