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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:From above: "Actually, I like special ammo heavy bolters better than ACs for this purpose."

Reading challenged?

Nope, just not fooled by you suddenly pretending to compromise.

I'm going to go with reading challenged TBH. You're going to have to spin awfully hard to convince me that Martel writing that Heavy Bolters with Special Ammo was a better idea means the opposite of what he actually posted.

I never really cared about anti-vehicle firepower on terminators, I just wanted them to be able to generate wounds at range after a deep strike. Heavy bolter is especially nice because scat bikes can't kite them. And they can bring the hurt on Necrons. And firewarriors. Units that laugh at the storm bolter. Well, I mean everyone laughs at the stormbolter for 35/40 pts, but you get my meaning. They aren't laughing at ignore cover heavy bolters.

I still think that the lascannon and AC are both poor anti-vehicle weapons in the scheme of things.


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 Ghazkuul wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Well, in that case, no unit regularly beats Termies. Makes it awfully hard to discuss, though.

i think the point he is making is that nobody brings the units you are comparing against termies. The units most commonly used such as scatbikes D scythes, Decurion Necrons and ork boyz all DEVASTATE Terminators. When you compare average units to terminators you start seeing that they get killed every time.

Give the Ork a snack squig!

Yes, SIA Heavy Bolters would be fantastic

Probably look good too from a modeling perspective.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Another buff would be Heavy Bolters on all of them by default. They MIGHT actually be threatening at that point, though still limited.

Something that can be accomplished by buffing the Storm Bolter, definitely.
You can't tell me that it's completely absurd to buff a Bolt-type weapon to have some traits from another Bolt-type weapon. Giving the Storm Bolter more shots and better range is totally feasible, as is S5 SP4 if it's REALLY needed.
Let's say the Storm Bolter is Salvo 2/4 and twice the range with a special rule that you can Assault after using it (even if not Relentless) then it's exactly the same as it was before when non-Relentless infantry use it on the move AND when standing still, Relentless or a vehicle you get double the shots and double the range! S5 AP4 can be given as well, I suppose.
Though if so, maybe the Heavy Bolter should be Salvo 3/5 or Salvo 3/6 with twice the range (no special charging rule though). Now non-Relentless inftantry aren't Snap-Shotting with the same number of shots on the move and standing still, Relentless or vehicles get more shots with double range. It would be goofy if the Storm Bolter fired more shots, and it's apparently in need of a buff anyway.
And both can be Rending if needed.

I would say thought, just to keep in mind that making the Storm Bolter better will give an edge to the CML over the other Terminator Heavy Weapons. Just something to keep in mind.

"Though if so, maybe the Heavy Bolter should be Salvo 3/5 or Salvo 3/6"

Realize that a Salvo 3/6 heavy bolter causes 50% more wounds than an AC against T3 targets and 20% more wounds against T4 targets. And with 12" more range to boot. Sure it doesn't rend, but I think the range trade off is worth it.

48" storm bolters? That's a little excessive, IMO. 36" is more reasonable. And 72" heavy bolters?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
48" storm bolters? That's a little excessive, IMO. 36" is more reasonable. And 72" heavy bolters?

I thought they'd be 18"/36".

Martel732 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
48" storm bolters? That's a little excessive, IMO. 36" is more reasonable. And 72" heavy bolters?

I thought they'd be 18"/36".

I may have mis-understood it, but "twice the range" seemed pretty clear to me.

Maybe I misunderstood it. Anyway, I'd be just as happy with heavy bolters with special issue ammo. I guess the kraken bolts for the heavy bolter would be AP 3. That would be pretty damn grim actually.

I did mean double the range in that sense, I'll admit I wasn't thinking fully on the Heavy Bolter stuff as it was just a momentary "if you buff the Storm Bolter, do the same to the Heavy Bolter so it isn't outdone by its little brother" thing.

And the other point is that you can achieve the same rough things by buffing the Storm Bolter however you need, without screwing over all the models that already have Storm Bolters on them and it sounds like the Storm Bolter needs a buff elsewhere too.

What about bumping them up a shot, no other changes (besides possibly a price decrease? not sure how expensive they are)? It wouldn't require anything fancy, just a special rule that termies have that allows them to fire an extra shot with storm bolters and heavy bolters. it would boost their damage output a reasonable amount, allowing them do pretty decent damage to most mainline troops. Maybe even something like a 50% increase if they stand still?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
What about bumping them up a shot, no other changes (besides possibly a price decrease? not sure how expensive they are)? It wouldn't require anything fancy, just a special rule that termies have that allows them to fire an extra shot with storm bolters and heavy bolters. it would boost their damage output a reasonable amount, allowing them do pretty decent damage to most mainline troops. Maybe even something like a 50% increase if they stand still?

No, because S4 AP5 sucks out loud. They need higher S shots to generate more wounds against a larger variety of targets. This is the only way to justify their price tag, because the powerfists are a damned joke.

I could see paying 35 ppm for heavy bolter-toting tac termies with stern ammo. I wouldn't call them an auto take, but I wouldn't laugh at an opponent who threw them against me either. As far as balancing goes, that's the best possible outcome.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
What about bumping them up a shot, no other changes (besides possibly a price decrease? not sure how expensive they are)? It wouldn't require anything fancy, just a special rule that termies have that allows them to fire an extra shot with storm bolters and heavy bolters. it would boost their damage output a reasonable amount, allowing them do pretty decent damage to most mainline troops. Maybe even something like a 50% increase if they stand still?

I suppose since people have been suggesting Storm Bolters being Assault 3, and if necessary they could get the stronger profile. What could be done to the Heavy Bolter is another discussion, just know that buffing the Storm Bolter means buffing the Heavy Bolter.
And definitely do the weapon itself, it's a weapon that needs help and that special rule sounds really awkward.
Also, replacing Storm Bolters with Heavy Bolters is NOT an option, remember the models guys!

"Also, replacing Storm Bolters with Heavy Bolters is NOT an option, remember the models guys!"

Don't care about the models. Only the math.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
What about bumping them up a shot, no other changes (besides possibly a price decrease? not sure how expensive they are)? It wouldn't require anything fancy, just a special rule that termies have that allows them to fire an extra shot with storm bolters and heavy bolters. it would boost their damage output a reasonable amount, allowing them do pretty decent damage to most mainline troops. Maybe even something like a 50% increase if they stand still?

I suppose since people have been suggesting Storm Bolters being Assault 3, and if necessary they could get the stronger profile. What could be done to the Heavy Bolter is another discussion, just know that buffing the Storm Bolter means buffing the Heavy Bolter.
And definitely do the weapon itself, it's a weapon that needs help and that special rule sounds really awkward.
Also, replacing Storm Bolters with Heavy Bolters is NOT an option, remember the models guys!

"These elite troops in Terminator armor have been granted a special custom heavy bolter that fits snugly in one terminator armored hand."

There, I just fluffed to save your models.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Another buff would be Heavy Bolters on all of them by default. They MIGHT actually be threatening at that point, though still limited.

Something that can be accomplished by buffing the Storm Bolter, definitely.
You can't tell me that it's completely absurd to buff a Bolt-type weapon to have some traits from another Bolt-type weapon. Giving the Storm Bolter more shots and better range is totally feasible, as is S5 SP4 if it's REALLY needed.
Let's say the Storm Bolter is Salvo 2/4 and twice the range with a special rule that you can Assault after using it (even if not Relentless) then it's exactly the same as it was before when non-Relentless infantry use it on the move AND when standing still, Relentless or a vehicle you get double the shots and double the range! S5 AP4 can be given as well, I suppose.
Though if so, maybe the Heavy Bolter should be Salvo 3/5 or Salvo 3/6 with twice the range (no special charging rule though). Now non-Relentless inftantry aren't Snap-Shotting with the same number of shots on the move and standing still, Relentless or vehicles get more shots with double range. It would be goofy if the Storm Bolter fired more shots, and it's apparently in need of a buff anyway.
And both can be Rending if needed.

I would say thought, just to keep in mind that making the Storm Bolter better will give an edge to the CML over the other Terminator Heavy Weapons. Just something to keep in mind.

That requires fixing Grey Knight Power Armor dudes though. Heavy Bolters are just the easier solution, and then make Storm Bolters cheaper than they are.

Martel732 wrote:Don't care about the models. Only the math.

You should, it's kind of important. People don't like having their pricey models models made invalid.

niv-mizzet wrote: "These elite troops in Terminator armor have been granted a special custom heavy bolter that fits snugly in one terminator armored hand."

There, I just fluffed to save your models.

No because that would still look different, both positioning (think about how they hold Assault Cannons/Plasma Cannons/Heavy Flamers, but with a Heavy Bolter) and the weapon itself (the two do NOT look the same)

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:That requires fixing Grey Knight Power Armor dudes though. Heavy Bolters are just the easier solution, and then make Storm Bolters cheaper than they are.

Yeah, Storm Bolter tweaks would likely require Grey Knight tweaking as it affects them en-masse.
Heavy Bolters might be an "easy" solution, but as established simply being easier doesn't make it better.

" People don't like having their pricey models models made invalid. "

GW did it to my Baal preds.

So?
Because it happened to you, that somehow makes it okay to push onto other people with better options lying around?

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
So?
Because it happened to you, that somehow makes it okay to push onto other people with better options lying around?

If it's good enough for GW, I'd say it's good enough for me.

Leaving terminators with a S4 AP 5 shooting attack is not a good option, imo, either.

Is stock weapon firepower what everyone wants as a fix?

Why not fix their price and/or durability?

If you wouldn't take them at any price (say, 20ppm?), then perhaps they're just not for you?

Obviously, 20ppm would be far too little for them as is. 35 seems to be considered too much. Perhaps somewhere in between?

Alternately, why keep dismissing 2/5 heavy weapons? Furthermore, HW prices could drop to compensate.

Here's a thought I think would be just a little over the line the other way:
-Stock at 33ppm
-2 Heavies per 5
-5pts for HF/HB
-10pts for CML/Assault Cannon

Thoughts?

Martel732 wrote:
If it's good enough for GW, I'd say it's good enough for me.

No, that's not valid. Screwing people over is still wrong. Pushing it on people just because of GW's mistake is not an excuse. You're just using that as an excuse to be a petty jerk.

Martel732 wrote:
Leaving terminators with a S4 AP 5 shooting attack is not a good option, imo, either.

Then two things:
1) Many are fine with it.
2) When buffing the Storm Bolter, giving it the Heavy Bolter's S5 AP4 is totally possible. I explicitly pointed this out.


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Bharring wrote:
Is stock weapon firepower what everyone wants as a fix?

Why not fix their price and/or durability?

I want to fix them overall (hence why I brought up and agreed with other things). Stock weapon firepower does need a LITTLE focus though because otherwise there won't be any reason to pick the "tactical" version over the "assault" version.

And I'm down with 2 heavies per 5.

"Alternately, why keep dismissing 2/5 heavy weapons?"

Not enough wound output for 7th ed. You keep forgetting that Imperial heavy weapons kinda suck.

"2) When buffing the Storm Bolter, giving it the Heavy Bolter's S5 AP4 is totally possible. I explicitly pointed this out."

I missed that somehow.

Martel732 wrote:
Not enough wound output for 7th ed. You keep forgetting that Imperial heavy weapons kinda suck.

If what you're looking at is heavy weapons for all then yes, because you have your sights set way too high.

Question - why does a storm bolter need to be very much weaker than a heavy bolter?

I see them a almost the same weapon - sure the heavy bolter looks much bigger but in terms of comparable weapons I would go like this.

Bolter is an m16 - fires 5.56mm 30 round mag
(rapid fire rifle)
storm bolter is a m249 5.56mm light machine gun
(essentially 2 bolters with the same ammo as a bolter strapped together for double the rate of fire)
and a heavy bolter is a M240 7.62mm heavy machine gun
(fires a heavier round)

They are mounting stormbolters on vehicals - it is a fcking machine gun dude. It should have higher rate of fire.

IoM weapons tend to be equal to or better than Xeno weapons. Its just their platforms/costs that suck.

(Tau tend to have better weapons, but usually suck worse at everything else.)

Scatter Lasers? Assault Cannon is better.
EML? OK, it has AP4 on the blast, but must always pay for Flak missiles. Otherwise identical to IoM ML.
Brightlance? Lascannon.
Star Cannon? Plasma Cannon.
Shuriken Cannon? Heavy Bolter is close
Shredders? Flamers

So, specifically on Termies:
An Assault Cannon outperforms any Scatter Laser, Lascannon, or Brightlance.
Heavy Flamer outperforms Shredders. By a gakton.
CML is like an EML, but twice the ROF.

Termie heavy weapons don't suck. The platform may be overcosted, and the Heavy too diluted, but the weapons themselves are actually great.

"Scatter Lasers? Assault Cannon is better. "

No, it's not. AND the platforms suck.

"Star Cannon? Plasma Cannon. "

Small blast templates suck as well.

" but the weapons themselves are actually great."

I disagree, but I suppose its moot because they are diluted and overcosted.

"An Assault Cannon outperforms any Scatter Laser, Lascannon, or Brightlance. "

Not outside 24". LOL

Forget all that here is my proposition. Give them the Stonecrusher Carnifex treatment. Lower the S characteristic of all guns targeting them by 1 or just make it so nothing wounds them on better than a 3+. give them two wounds on sergeant. Give them access to better guns./ more heavy guns. I see no reason why they shouldn't have a Heavy Bolter instead of a Storm Bolter although with that they edge in on Centurion territory.

So 12" extra range non-IoM weapons makes them ungodly broken, even compared to AP4 and *actual rending*, but an extra 12" range on IoM weapons means nothing? Really?

The AC kills almost all targets when in range much better than a Scatter Laser. A Scatter Laser has an extra 12" range. On less durable platforms, that 12" is quite important. On rather durable platforms, especially those that can deep strike, it becomes much less of an issue.

Just what do small blasts suck compared to? Large blasts? Heavy 5 weapons? Compared to 2 shots, Small Blast should tend to do better.

Is there really any other complaint about Assault Cannons other than the 24" range?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Question - why does a storm bolter need to be very much weaker than a heavy bolter?

I see them a almost the same weapon - sure the heavy bolter looks much bigger but in terms of comparable weapons I would go like this.

Bolter is an m16 - fires 5.56mm 30 round mag
(rapid fire rifle)
storm bolter is a m249 5.56mm light machine gun
(essentially 2 bolters with the same ammo as a bolter strapped together for double the rate of fire)
and a heavy bolter is a M240 7.62mm heavy machine gun
(fires a heavier round)

They are mounting stormbolters on vehicals - it is a fcking machine gun dude. It should have higher rate of fire.

That is also a very fair point, and another reason to buff the Storm Bolter rather than just ditching it, screwing over already-built models and pretending this weapon doesn't exist.


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 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:
Forget all that here is my proposition. Give them the Stonecrusher Carnifex treatment. Lower the S characteristic of all guns targeting them by 1. give them two wounds on sergeant. Give them access to better guns./ more heavy guns. I see no reason why they shouldn't have a Heavy Bolter instead of a Storm Bolter although with that they edge in on Centurion territory.

1) The Storm Bolter is a "lighter" type of weapon, they'd handle them the way they handle the Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer and Plasma Cannon.
2) They've been using Storm Bolters for yonks, and switching now would bugger over anyone with a model holding one.
3) The Storm Bolter is apparently in need of a buff anyway.