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 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

And why wouldn't I complain about you wanting to buff Termis through the roof to the levels of a unit you know is OP? Look if you want an echochamer of "Lol let's make this OP because GW" be my guest, but that isn't good game design.

Plus how many people do you think would be willing to play with proposed rules that make a unit OP? Would you be willing to face a unit that deletes 1/2 a mob of boyz every turn?

Terminators undoubtbly need a boost, but this isn't the way to do it. Buffing Storm Bolters? All good and fine (as long as my Chaos Terminators get a boost to their combi-bolters to compensate). Giving them a 4++ by default and/or allowing them to re-roll saves? By all means.

I feel like when it comes to bad game design, 4++ is about as lazy a possible. That's not important.

What um, what are buffed storm bolters going to do about centstar? Grav bikes, scat bikes, riptides, ghost arks?

Those aren't the only things in the game, and they are OP armies some of them, ok.

What are they going to do about a guard blob? Well, guard blobs aren't the best way to play guard necessarily. What are buffed storm bolters going to do to guard vet squads of any type?

They'll kill them, sure. Anything can do that, though. You take terminators to fight, you know, monsters.

Tactical terminators are armed with power fists to take down monsters, and stormbolters for squishies, with a heavy weapon or 2 to support them. That's how the fluff has portrayed them, not a gun that can destroy absolutely everything with ease and a power fist for show.

If a 4++ is lazy, what's giving them all an AC?


For 35 points I feel it's be fine if Terminators had +1 Attack each, a 4++ instead of a 5++, 2 heavy weapons in a 5 man squad and 3 in a 10 man and the following change to storm bolters with special ammo ontop to give them an extra boost against other targets.

So maybe something like:

Tactical Terminator Squad: 175 pts

Terminator: WS 4 | BS 4 | S 4 | T 4 | W 1 | I 4 | A 3 | Ld 9 | Sv 2+/4++
Terminator Sergeant: WS 4 | BS 4 | S 4 | T 4 | W 1 | I 4 | A 3 | Ld 9 | Sv 2+/4++

Unit Composition: 4 Terminators and 1 Terminator Sergeant

Wargear:
- Terminator Armour
- Storm Bolter
- Powerfist (Terminators Only)
- Power Sword (Terminator Sergeant Only)
- Terminator Special Ammunition

Special Rules:
- ATSKNF
- Chapter Tactics
- Combat Squads

Options:
- May include up to 5 additional Terminators: 35pts each
- Any model may replace their PF with a CF: 5pts each
- 2 Terminators may choose one of the following:
-- Replace SB with HF: 5pts
-- Replace SB with AC: 15pts
-- Take CM: 20pts
If the unit has 10 models, 1 Terminator may choose one of the following:
-- Replace SB with HF: 5pts
-- Replace SB with AC: 15pts
-- Take CM: 20pts
-May take a Land Raider variant as a DT


Storm Bolter
Range 24" | Str 4 | AP 5 | Salvo 2/4, Shred

Terminator Special Ammunition
In each shooting phase, models with Terminator Special Ammunition can choose to use one of the following profiles below for their Storm Bolter until the beginning of their next Shooting Phase. All models with Terminator Special Ammunition in a unit must use the same profile.

Kraken Bolt: Range 30" | S 4 | AP 4 | Salvo 2/4, Shred

Dragonfire Bolt: Range 24" | S 4 | AP 5 | Salvo 2/4, Shred, Ignores Cover

Hellfire Round: Range 24" | S 1 | AP 5 | Salvo 2/4, Shred, Poisoned (2+)

Vengeance Rounds: Range 18" | S 4 | AP 3 | Salvo 2/3, Shred, Gets Hot

Herculean Bolts: Range 24" | S 5 | AP 5 | Salvo 2/3, Shred, Rending

Also keep in mind this, Terminators are 35pts a model with a 2+ 5++ save, a powerfist and a garbage ranged weapon

Ork Nobz are 47pts per model when they come equipped with a PK, Eavy Armor.

so thats a 4+ PK and garbage ranged weapon.

WHEN CAN MY ORKS GET SOME LOVE!

Believe me, I cringe when I see the points cost of my Nobz (I'd weep, but that's un-orky)

They'll get love when a thread is made for them (believe me, if it's made I'll be there)

Matt.Kingsley wrote:So maybe something like:

I don't think that you and I are talking about the same subject.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Believe me, I cringe when I see the points cost of my Nobz (I'd weep, but that's un-orky)

They'll get love when a thread is made for them (believe me, if it's made I'll be there)

The boys mob nobs benefit from having a ton of cheap ablative wounds, making sure the points spent on them go the distance.
Actual nob squads though, yeah those are pretty meh.

pelicaniforce wrote:

Matt.Kingsley wrote:So maybe something like:

I don't think that you and I are talking about the same subject.

Honestly at this point I'm not entirely sure what you are talking about. You say that things like giving them 4++ invulnerable saves or giving storm bolters more shots are "Random things to do" but imply that giving every Terminator an Assault Cannon or Heavy Bolter isn't. Maybe I inferred wrong on the last part, though.


In regards to your "they fight monsters" comment from earlier, more Attacks and a 4++ helps them fight monsters in combat (the reason they're armed with PFs to begin with) and the Special Ammunition, Shred and additional SB shots help them soften them before they charge. SB aren't meant to kill everything out right in one salvo.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Tactical terminators are armed with power fists to take down monsters, and stormbolters for squishies, with a heavy weapon or 2 to support them. That's how the fluff has portrayed them, not a gun that can destroy absolutely everything with ease and a power fist for show.

Spot on


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
The problem with that is that we know for a fact GW doesn't give a Feth what we think or for game balance and we furthermore know its going to be a long time if EVER before GW gets rid of Scatter bikes or ridiculously OP undercosted Wraith Knights.

The cynical side of me thinks GW deliberately shift the power:points value of units to encourage sales. e.g.when dreads were reduced to a measly 2 attacks, a load of players shelves them, and spent money on rifleman dreads or alternatives. So likewise perhaps the serious buff to jetbikes is deliberate to encourage sales. Assuming the game testers in there are competent I can't imagine how they create such disparity in unit values except for this reason.

The same can also be said for the change in rules for certain unit types we see in each ruleset release, as well as rule changes that swing shooting in favour of close combat, or vica versa.

That's why I think it's especially important for players to be fair and agree to self regulation of stats and points values, so we can continue to use the units we want in our armies, not the ones that the GW are shoving us towards with each codex and ruleset release.

"How would that work, anyway? 30" Str 5 AP 3 Heavy 3 Gets Hot! for Vengeance? But then what would Kraken do, since currently they boost the AP by 1, and therefore would be infinitely better. Would vengeance by AP2, then? Because that's better than the "All ACs" suggestion and even more broken, even with Get's Hot."

Don't give them veangenace. They're not there for AP 2. I don't think AP 3 ammo on a marine elite is a crazy idea.

". That said I feel it's better to minorly buff their storm bolters"

I will never use a unit with so little firepower in 7th. They'd have to be SUPER cheap. Even at 35 pts, they are completely unusable.

"Tactical terminators are armed with power fists to take down monsters, and stormbolters for squishies, with a heavy weapon or 2 to support them. That's how the fluff has portrayed them, not a gun that can destroy absolutely everything with ease and a power fist for show."

This formula is a complete failure in 7th. Time to change it. The fluff means nothing to me. Only table top efficacy, because I spend a lot more time playing than I do reading GW's poor fiction.

To the supporters of the terminator status quo: there is no way I'm paying 35 ppm, and then waiting for them to arrive via deep strike, staying in "rape me" formation in order to shoot STORMBOLTERS at the enemy, and then having them shot in the face by any number of AP 2 weapons in the game that are everywhere. This is not happening. How cheap do you make such a TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE gimmick? My 25 terminators will continue to gather dust, as per protocol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Tactical terminators are armed with power fists to take down monsters, and stormbolters for squishies, with a heavy weapon or 2 to support them. That's how the fluff has portrayed them, not a gun that can destroy absolutely everything with ease and a power fist for show.

If a 4++ is lazy, what's giving them all an AC?


For 35 points I feel it's be fine if Terminators had +1 Attack each, a 4++ instead of a 5++, 2 heavy weapons in a 5 man squad and 3 in a 10 man and the following change to storm bolters with special ammo ontop to give them an extra boost against other targets.

So maybe something like:

Tactical Terminator Squad: 175 pts

Terminator: WS 4 | BS 4 | S 4 | T 4 | W 1 | I 4 | A 3 | Ld 9 | Sv 2+/4++
Terminator Sergeant: WS 4 | BS 4 | S 4 | T 4 | W 1 | I 4 | A 3 | Ld 9 | Sv 2+/4++

Unit Composition: 4 Terminators and 1 Terminator Sergeant

Wargear:
- Terminator Armour
- Storm Bolter
- Powerfist (Terminators Only)
- Power Sword (Terminator Sergeant Only)
- Terminator Special Ammunition

Special Rules:
- ATSKNF
- Chapter Tactics
- Combat Squads

Options:
- May include up to 5 additional Terminators: 35pts each
- Any model may replace their PF with a CF: 5pts each
- 2 Terminators may choose one of the following:
-- Replace SB with HF: 5pts
-- Replace SB with AC: 15pts
-- Take CM: 20pts
If the unit has 10 models, 1 Terminator may choose one of the following:
-- Replace SB with HF: 5pts
-- Replace SB with AC: 15pts
-- Take CM: 20pts
-May take a Land Raider variant as a DT


Storm Bolter
Range 24" | Str 4 | AP 5 | Salvo 2/4, Shred

Terminator Special Ammunition
In each shooting phase, models with Terminator Special Ammunition can choose to use one of the following profiles below for their Storm Bolter until the beginning of their next Shooting Phase. All models with Terminator Special Ammunition in a unit must use the same profile.

Kraken Bolt: Range 30" | S 4 | AP 4 | Salvo 2/4, Shred

Dragonfire Bolt: Range 24" | S 4 | AP 5 | Salvo 2/4, Shred, Ignores Cover

Hellfire Round: Range 24" | S 1 | AP 5 | Salvo 2/4, Shred, Poisoned (2+)

Vengeance Rounds: Range 18" | S 4 | AP 3 | Salvo 2/3, Shred, Gets Hot

Herculean Bolts: Range 24" | S 5 | AP 5 | Salvo 2/3, Shred, Rending

I'd be willing to playtest this. Salvo 2/4 might make this work because 2 shots per model is way too small for a 35 ppm model that can't get in CC.

I still think it's hilarious that Eldar can have a troop choice with 40 S6 shots, but give marines an elite choice with 20 S6 shots, and everyone loses their minds. I've played against enough scatbikes now that I wouldn't bat an eye. In fact, I'd be grateful that they only have 24" range and are foot sloggers.

Matt,
Did you plan on changing TH/SS Termies at all in relation to this?

Going from 4++ to 3++ and lose that kind of proposed shooting doesn't seem to be worth +10ppm.

From a fluff perspective, does Special Ammo seem right? Termie armor is too cumbersome to even sweep opponents, so swapping out ammo types mid-battle seems a bit off. (And automated ammo swappers don't feel Marine-ish). Thoughts?

Hmm, salvo 2/4 AND shred seems little too good, better than a heavy bolter in fact. Suggest assault 3 or assault 2 shred
I'd also avoid ammo types altering the rate of fire, it seems a bit messy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Matt,
Did you plan on changing TH/SS Termies at all in relation to this?

Going from 4++ to 3++ and lose that kind of proposed shooting doesn't seem to be worth +10ppm.

There's a load of suggestions about this earlier in the thread. From SS allowing an invul save reroll to it conferring hammer of wrath.

Matt, thank you.
When people aren't buffing these things to ridiculous heights it's not "Eldar can be OP and nobody else can", it's "Nobody should be that OP, but we're going to balance Termies to a more reasonable level and leave the assumption that Scatterbikes should be nerfed because this thread is about Terminators and not Scatterbikes".
And quite frankly most of Martel's posts seem to be coming from a grudge, a few of the things he said when it's not hiding behind "It's the new normal" (which is bunk, even now in the "new status quo", those handfuls of units stand out) show that he's upset about things and is effectively venting his anger with these suggestions. Understandable, but still not right. Even now he's still doing things like exaggerating the advantage of shooting over Assault by pretending CC doesn't exist, when people still get use out of choppy units and armies even with all the disadvantages (and if it's a personal preference thing, Terminators were never really going to appeal too much, and picking Blood Angels over Vanilla/Dark Angels would be a bit bold and foolish for someone who doesn't like melee and just wants to shoot a lot).
As far as the new profile, mostly good but I have a few suggestions:
• Let Sarge swap his Power Sword for a Power Maul or Power Axe and give him +1 attack as compensation for having no Fist. Optionally +1 Wound too.
• Maybe 2 Heavies per 5 guys as many suggested (thus, one more in a full squad) would be better. People seem to really want more Heavy Weapons and it's simpler to follow too.
• Was removing the Plasma Cannon deliberate? If it's because it's too bad, maybe make it a free swap instead?
• Some have suggested Terminator Armor rerolls the armor save, are you including that? Also I'd like to again suggest putting in a rule that lets them both Assault and Shoot on the turn they Deep Strike (BOTH because I already want Deep Striking in general to let you pick and as another incentive for shooty Termies).
Can't remember anything else so I'd say it's mostly good!

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Also keep in mind this, Terminators are 35pts a model with a 2+ 5++ save, a powerfist and a garbage ranged weapon

Ork Nobz are 47pts per model when they come equipped with a PK, Eavy Armor.

so thats a 4+ PK and garbage ranged weapon.

WHEN CAN MY ORKS GET SOME LOVE!

knobs also need a buff - can you still take nob bikers?

Bharring wrote:
Matt,
Did you plan on changing TH/SS Termies at all in relation to this?

Going from 4++ to 3++ and lose that kind of proposed shooting doesn't seem to be worth +10ppm.

People have suggested that the Storm Shield should reroll invulnerable saves, which is slightly better than 3++.
Now instead of going from 2/3 to 1/3 chance of fail, they go from 1/2 to 1/4 chance of fail. In both cases it halves the chance of failing.
And if it still seems less impressive than it was before, that's probably fine as it's another push to make TH/SS something to consider instead of auto-take.

Bharring wrote:

From a fluff perspective, does Special Ammo seem right? Termie armor is too cumbersome to even sweep opponents, so swapping out ammo types mid-battle seems a bit off. (And automated ammo swappers don't feel Marine-ish). Thoughts?

Two ways to go about this:
Method 1 (if letting them swap is good):
Terminator armor has a lot of stuff in it already and considering that the Storm Bolter is kinda dinky compared to the Assault Cannon/Plasma Cannon/Heavy Flamer it seems odd that they aren't any more/less agile depending on weapon choices. Makes sense if they have a heavy (if small) ammo-changer in their arm when they use a Storm Bolter.
Method 2 (if letting them swap is too much):
Instead, the squad picks ONE ammo type when they first arrive and are stuck with it for the rest of the game. The first two are safe choices since they're direct upgrades, but the last two might be a bit trickier, so something to think about before picking them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thegreatchimp wrote:
Hmm, salvo 2/4 AND shred seems little too good, better than a heavy bolter in fact. Suggest assault 3 or assault 2 shred

If it's just outclassing the Heavy Bolter, then that can get buffed too.

Bharring wrote:Matt,
Did you plan on changing TH/SS Termies at all in relation to this?

Going from 4++ to 3++ and lose that kind of proposed shooting doesn't seem to be worth +10ppm.

From a fluff perspective, does Special Ammo seem right? Termie armor is too cumbersome to even sweep opponents, so swapping out ammo types mid-battle seems a bit off. (And automated ammo swappers don't feel Marine-ish). Thoughts?

I was thinking about making it 5pts, or 10pts with an additional special rule.
I see your point about ammo swapping, but along the same vein, how do Terminators replace their ammo once they've emptied their storm bolter? We could suspend disbelief and keep it as access to all of them at any time or as Crash said, make them choose 1 type at the start of battle (and balancing Herculean and Vengeance rounds around that)

thegreatchimp wrote:Hmm, salvo 2/4 AND shred seems little too good, better than a heavy bolter in fact. Suggest assault 3 or assault 2 shred
I'd also avoid ammo types altering the rate of fire, it seems a bit messy.

I can see you point, however I still think A3 or A2 Shred isn't enough of a buff for the base Storm Bolter. May make it Salvo 2/3 instead and then have the Heavy Bolter be buffed to Salvo 3/5 Pinning?
I'd keep the Storm Bolter at Salvo 2/4 but then the Heavy Bolter would have to be even better and make Autocannons not worth it.

Also, the alternating rates of fire for different ammo was because I felt 20 AP3 shots with shred were a bit much... that's 10 marines dead a turn from a squad that costs 5pts more than 10 bare Tacs that is way more capable in assault. Even with Gets Hot, that's only 0.555 wounds per phase. 15 shots is only 7.5 MEQ a turn, so not as bad. For Herculean rounds it was a mistype, however. They were meant to be 2/4.

CrashGordon94 wrote:Matt, thank you.
When people aren't buffing these things to ridiculous heights it's not "Eldar can be OP and nobody else can", it's "Nobody should be that OP, but we're going to balance Termies to a more reasonable level and leave the assumption that Scatterbikes should be nerfed because this thread is about Terminators and not Scatterbikes".
And quite frankly most of Martel's posts seem to be coming from a grudge, a few of the things he said when it's not hiding behind "It's the new normal" (which is bunk, even now in the "new status quo", those handfuls of units stand out) show that he's upset about things and is effectively venting his anger with these suggestions. Understandable, but still not right. Even now he's still doing things like exaggerating the advantage of shooting over Assault by pretending CC doesn't exist, when people still get use out of choppy units and armies even with all the disadvantages (and if it's a personal preference thing, Terminators were never really going to appeal too much, and picking Blood Angels over Vanilla/Dark Angels would be a bit bold and foolish for someone who doesn't like melee and just wants to shoot a lot).
As far as the new profile, mostly good but I have a few suggestions:
• Let Sarge swap his Power Sword for a Power Maul or Power Axe and give him +1 attack as compensation for having no Fist. Optionally +1 Wound too.
• Maybe 2 Heavies per 5 guys as many suggested (thus, one more in a full squad) would be better. People seem to really want more Heavy Weapons and it's simpler to follow too.
• Was removing the Plasma Cannon deliberate? If it's because it's too bad, maybe make it a free swap instead?
• Some have suggested Terminator Armor rerolls the armor save, are you including that? Also I'd like to again suggest putting in a rule that lets them both Assault and Shoot on the turn they Deep Strike (BOTH because I already want Deep Striking in general to let you pick and as another incentive for shooty Termies).
Can't remember anything else so I'd say it's mostly good!

No problem.

1) Sounds good on the first part. I can see what you mean about compensation for not having a fist, though I'm not sure we want 5A Lightning Claw Assault Sergeants. *shrug*
2) You're probably right.
3) Vanilla Termis don't have the option for a Plasma Cannon, that's the reason why . I didn't realise DA could take PCs.
4) With the buffs to everything else, I didn't include re-rolling armour as I wanted to keep them at 35pts each and felt everything + re-rolling armour might be too much. If we increase their cost back to 40pts or more, I don't see why we can't allow them to re-roll their armour. With all Assault-from-DS being removed from the game (except Skyhammer for... reasons) I'm not entirely sure about the letting them shoot and assault after DSing.

@Martel:
I'm glad you're at least willing to try my proposed Termi rules.

So with this in mind...

"I'm glad you're at least willing to try my proposed Termi rules. "

That's because volume of shots with poison doesn't suck.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

I was thinking about making it 5pts, or 10pts with an additional special rule.

How about 10 points for the re-roll version? 4++ -> 4++ re-rollable is about the same as 5++ -> 3++ (Both halve the chance of failure).

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

I can see you point, however I still think A3 or A2 Shred isn't enough of a buff for the base Storm Bolter. May make it Salvo 2/3 instead and then have the Heavy Bolter be buffed to Salvo 3/5 Pinning?
I'd keep the Storm Bolter at Salvo 2/4 but then the Heavy Bolter would have to be even better and make Autocannons not worth it.

I suppose I see your point with this. Particularly how the Grey Knights would be with Salvo 2/4 Storm Bolters!
Though now that we've mentioned further changes, maybe a rule that says the unit using them can always Assault after firing since we changed it from Assault 2 to Salvo 2/3. Obviously no change for Relentless units like Termies but for Grey Knight Strike Squads/Purifiers, certain HQs and some Marines/Sisters who might have Storm Bolters without Bikes or Terminator Armor they might need it.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

1) Sounds good on the first part. I can see what you mean about compensation for not having a fist, though I'm not sure we want 5A Lightning Claw Assault Sergeants. *shrug*
2) You're probably right.
3) Vanilla Termis don't have the option for a Plasma Cannon, that's the reason why . I didn't realise DA could take PCs.
4) With the buffs to everything else, I didn't include re-rolling armour as I wanted to keep them at 35pts each and felt everything + re-rolling armour might be too much. If we increase their cost back to 40pts or more, I don't see why we can't allow them to re-roll their armour. With all Assault-from-DS being removed from the game (except Skyhammer for... reasons) I'm not entirely sure about the letting them shoot and assault after DSing.

1) I was kinda split about that, I suppose Assault Sergeants could have the same number of attacks. Where it gets tricky would be Dark Angels (Deathwing Termies aren't split the same way - They're set up like Tactical Termies by default with the options to switch for LCs for free or TH/SS for 10 points each, by model so you can "mix" the two.). At the same time, I suppose extra choppy Assault Sergeants wouldn't be bad either, though again tricky for Dark Angels (the Deathwing Command Squad has 5 Terminators by default and one of the options is to turn one of them into a Sergeant for free. With this if you gave one of the Command Squad guys LCs or TH/SS you could just say "he's the Sergeant" for an extra free attack. Though that might not be a problem either).
3) Oh whoops, my lack of Vanilla Marine logic shoes... I would like to mention that IIRC the Plasma Cannon costs as much as the Assault Cannon and is also crap, so maybe that could be cheaper (thought either 5 points for free, considering the now much better Storm Bolter it'll replace).
4a) That's a fair point about price, not sure if cheaper ones without re-rolling or same price (or more expensive) WITH re-rolling would be a better idea.
4b) Honestly removing Assault-from-Deep-Strike was a really bad idea to begin with, hence why I mentioned the general idea of "one or the other on Deep Strike", though I suppose even with that idea the Shoot-and-Charge rule might be a bit much, but I dunno, basically I suggested that with that change in mind either way.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:


I can see you point, however I still think A3 or A2 Shred isn't enough of a buff for the base Storm Bolter. May make it Salvo 2/3 instead and then have the Heavy Bolter be buffed to Salvo 3/5 Pinning?

That would be an ideal solution

Still, I think that Heavy Bolter stats on their Storm Bolters would be good. S5 isn't terrible and can glance plenty of vehicles in many numbers, and AP4 helps against more medium infantry. I don't think they need the 36" so maybe 24", but what do we think of that option itself?
The Assault Cannon becomes less appealing since 3 S5 shots with S8 AP3 thrown in is much better than S6 AP4 Rending...

 thegreatchimp wrote:
There's been some great alterations for termies hammered together on this thread. One thing that's being overlooked though is that some terminators equipment is available to other units than terminators. Specifically with the suggestion that a storm shield allow a reroll of the the suggested TDA 4++ -bearing in mind that we are changing the wording of "storm shields," how does this translate to power armoured figures with storm shields, or sw runic armour figures with storm shields? Unless a seperate "terminator storm shield" is to be implemented, the ruling has to be such that it's consistent for all models.

That is a point. Honestly I've been trying to keep non-Termies in mind (see my suggesting an Assaulting rule on the Storm Bolter for on-foot Power Armor peeps with SBs), kinda forgot that you can have Storm Shields without Terminator Armor... Actually, not sure I ever knew that was an option to begin with, besides maybe glancing at Vanguard Vets or Death Company or something once.
Three options I can see:
1) Separate "Terminator Storm Shield" that lets you re-roll your invulnerable, the normal Storm Shield stays the same for those other units.
2) The Storm Shield grants 4++ to those with 5++ or worse, along with the re-roll.
3) Storm Shields on Termies let you re-roll your invulnerable while they just grant 3++ on everything else (same as first option, but compressed into one item).
The question is "Should Power Armor + Storm Shield people have 3++ or 4++ re-rollable?" and if we want them to stay with the 3++ "Should it be split into two items, or kept one item?"

Wow some powerful sh*t getting brewed in here. My eyes watered when I walked in..

So I love termies, I've run full wings for years but just from a fresh, first impression perspective I think these rules are looking a little too good. The terminator ammo and rerollable saves particularly.

Now in a MEQ ONLY environment they might be alright, but against plenty of other non meq armies they'd be pretty broke. Also consider the balancing act of other units that are similar in function. Wheres that leave sternguard or meganobz etc. Precedence.

And lastly considering on top of everything else they also have in-built combat ability, invulns and deep strike all of which even centurions lack.

Anyway that said the base equipment and costs, dual HWs and salvo 3 SB all look pretty spot on from where I'm at. But then I'm feeling bad about wanting an ap2 huskblade..

Anyway just some friendly input. Carry on.

^Just be glad we aren't bringing them up to the level Martel was aiming at!
Though yeah, this is all stuff to keep in mind. Doesn't seem too unreasonable to me but I could be missing plenty of stuff.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
^Just be glad we aren't bringing them up to the level Martel was aiming at!
Though yeah, this is all stuff to keep in mind. Doesn't seem too unreasonable to me but I could be missing plenty of stuff.

Haha ya thats where the smell was coming from! Burnt pieces of remaining game balance lol. Only joking brew away.

Seriously though using eldar and especially scatbikes as a metric for anything is gonna lead to badly skewed results.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

Three options I can see:
1) Separate "Terminator Storm Shield" that lets you re-roll your invulnerable, the normal Storm Shield stays the same for those other units.
2) The Storm Shield grants 4++ to those with 5++ or worse, along with the re-roll.
3) Storm Shields on Termies let you re-roll your invulnerable while they just grant 3++ on everything else (same as first option, but compressed into one item).
The question is "Should Power Armor + Storm Shield people have 3++ or 4++ re-rollable?" and if we want them to stay with the 3++ "Should it be split into two items, or kept one item?"

While the re-roll gives justifiable resistance to small arms fire, I think it makes them too resiliant to heavy weapons (which should remain a threat to termies). I'd also avoid a generic ss conferring a 4++ reroll . As you've pointed out, would it be a little too good for power-armoured marines? I fear it would.

Were I you I would actually just leave it at simple 3++ and then to keep it competitive vs the new upgunned storm bolter, give the shield either Hammer of Wrath OR Counter Attack. That would keep it nicely viable. I'm on the fence as to whether or not that should apply to the generic ss, or "termie ss." It'd justify a raise of a few points, but would a ss with these rules become a default choice for every marine IC? If not then all would be fine with a generic ss. If yes then that would be undesireable and we'd need 2 types of ss.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
^Just be glad we aren't bringing them up to the level Martel was aiming at!

Why are we not? Why are you acting as though you can somehow unilaterally decide what we are and aren't doing?

Personally I would be happy with Terminators getting to the same power level as Eldar shenanigans. It would justify them giving my orks a lot more love. Maybe putting a Gitfinda in a unit that uses ranged weapons. Or god forbid, giving me Nob with PK and a bike for less then it costs for Eldar to field 2 or more Windriders with better stats/weapons/armor/range.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


Why are we not? Why are you acting as though you can somehow unilaterally decide what we are and aren't doing?

Nobody is deciding anything here. At the end of the day we can all walk away and make whatever changes we want to termies -can give them jump packs or bikes, as long as that's acceptable within your own playing group

Just trying to combine our brainpower to forge something that's balanced and usable to folks...should they choose to use it.

dominuschao wrote:Seriously though using eldar and especially scatbikes as a metric for anything is gonna lead to badly skewed results.

Indeed, kept trying to explain this to Martel but he seems to have a really hard time listening...

thegreatchimp wrote:While the re-roll gives justifiable resistance to small arms fire, I think it makes them too resiliant to heavy weapons (which should remain a threat to termies). I'd also avoid a generic ss conferring a 4++ reroll . As you've pointed out, would it be a little too good for power-armoured marines? I fear it would.

Were I you I would actually just leave it at simple 3++ and then to keep it competitive vs the new upgunned storm bolter, give the shield either Hammer of Wrath OR Counter Attack. That would keep it nicely viable. I'm on the fence as to whether or not that should apply to the generic ss, or "termie ss." It'd justify a raise of a few points, but would a ss with these rules become a default choice for every marine IC? If not then all would be fine with a generic ss. If yes then that would be undesireable and we'd need 2 types of ss.

Ummm, here's the thing: 4++ re-rollable is definitely better than 3++, but not by much.
Again, 3++ has a 4/12 chance of failure while 4++ re-rollable has a 3/12 chance of failure. Doesn't really seem so big a boost as to be broken.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Why are we not?

Because it's completely unreasonable.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Why are you acting as though you can somehow unilaterally decide what we are and aren't doing?

I hate it when people do this...
Because I applied basic logic and saw that it was a completely horrible idea. It's no exclusive right to me, anyone else can do the same. I'm not going to hold back because of some insane logical fallacy.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
[ Ummm, here's the thing: 4++ re-rollable is definitely better than 3++, but not by much.
Again, 3++ has a 4/12 chance of failure while 4++ re-rollable has a 3/12 chance of failure. Doesn't really seem so big a boost as to be broken.

I know what you mean. But ss resistance vs armour piercing weapons is fine as it is, so I wouldn't increase it, particularly when doing so neccessitates either a messy rule or the creation of a 2nd storm shield like we are considering.

Also lascannons struggle in the current edition as it is. They don't need a -7% chance of killing an ss termie, on top of their other woes!

At the same time, 4++ to 3++ is kinda weak, even if it gives Hammer of Wrath or whatever. That would be a weak tradeoff for losing the new and improved Storm Bolter.