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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
People still bitch about a S6 Powerfist on initiative on a t3 3+ infantry for 57pts.

NOBODY does that. Quit exaggerating.

What is he even talking about?

Scorpion's Claw. An exarch leading it is 57pts. Plus the rest of his units. I've heard a lot of complaints about that striking at initiative.

As have I, then consider if the exarch is in a challenge against an init 4 or less opponent, for whatever reason, he gets +2 attacks on top of his already hefty 3-4.

Bharring wrote:
Scorpion's Claw. An exarch leading it is 57pts. Plus the rest of his units. I've heard a lot of complaints about that striking at initiative.

Sounds like you play against kinda whiney opponents if that's what they are picking out of an Eldar list to complain out. It's a CC weapon. Who cares? Eldar are slaughtering me before I can even think about assaulting.

Ok, so no PF on initative then...

How about letting them assault out of deepstrike? That would clear up a whole lot of their problems, and make them quite the powerfull fist to launch at your opponent in turn 2/3 when they arrive.

 triplegrim wrote:
Ok, so no PF on initative then...

How about letting them assault out of deepstrike? That would clear up a whole lot of their problems, and make them quite the powerfull fist to launch at your opponent in turn 2/3 when they arrive.

That is a very interesting proposition.

Perhaps that they could choose between shooting and assaulting, when they arrive from deepstrike, would be reasonable at 35 points?

And there is precedence... Didnt everything use to be able to assault when ds'ing?

There was a chapter approved variant Tyranid list that could deep strike directly into assault, but the units had to DS within one inch of their targets and it was third edition.

There were marine vanguard in fifth edition, of course, but they were not competitive style units because of the problems with reserve rolls and scatter. Even then, if you scatter and have to assault the wrong unit with vanguard, you can hope to use their jump packs on turn five to assault something useful; not so for Terminators.


Deep strike is a very good rule for normal basement games, but it is a really bad idea competitively, even if they can assault in the same turn. Maybe it could be competitive if bikes, and every other unit too, came with teleport homers, and Tigurius were really cheap and didn't have to use a specific chapter tactic, and Terminators came with a 36" Kheres cannon fired at bs5, with s6 TL storm bolters, and invisibility on deployment, then deep strike would be competitive, but still only in niche situations. Essentially, if everything were different, they would be a curiosity unit.

pelicaniforce wrote:

Deep strike is a very good rule for normal basement games, but it is a really bad idea competitively, even if they can assault in the same turn.

This, so much this.

And before someone mentions Drop Pods, they're good because they remove almost all the risk of traditional Deep Striking.

I think you are exaggerating the uselessness of DS. Also, scout bikes (a very underused unit that just got a stat boost) can come with teleport homer by the way.

 triplegrim wrote:
I think you are exaggerating the uselessness of DS. Also, scout bikes (a very underused unit that just got a stat boost) can come with teleport homer by the way.

I just came from a GT where, while I was using pods to safely DS, I had an opponent lose his warlord and artillery semi-deathstar to a mishap scatter, the 3rd one waste a turn from a mishap scatter, the 4th have no one come in from reserve t2 and get tabled due to it, and the 6th have one unit that was delayed 1 turn to mishap scatter, and 1 unit that waited til t4 to come in, then got delayed twice by mishap scatters.

niv-mizzet wrote:

I just came from a GT where, while I was using pods to safely DS, I had an opponent lose his warlord and artillery semi-deathstar to a mishap scatter, the 3rd one waste a turn from a mishap scatter, the 4th have no one come in from reserve t2 and get tabled due to it, and the 6th have one unit that was delayed 1 turn to mishap scatter, and 1 unit that waited til t4 to come in, then got delayed twice by mishap scatters.

So in other words competative players in GTs think Deep striking is worth fielding.

 triplegrim wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

I just came from a GT where, while I was using pods to safely DS, I had an opponent lose his warlord and artillery semi-deathstar to a mishap scatter, the 3rd one waste a turn from a mishap scatter, the 4th have no one come in from reserve t2 and get tabled due to it, and the 6th have one unit that was delayed 1 turn to mishap scatter, and 1 unit that waited til t4 to come in, then got delayed twice by mishap scatters.

So in other words competative players in GTs think Deep striking is worth fielding.

Hmm. Fair point, but I personally believe traditional DS to be too risky for a multi-round event. By sheer odds each unit deep striking without protection is going to bite you in like a third of your games.

I think unassisted DS is complete garbage.

I DS'ed in 2003 during a tau game. And then again in may 2015 with belial. I guess it will be 12 years untill next time too, so I'm no enthusiast.

But DS and its qualities aside, the terminators would certainly benefit from being able to assault out of it, no?

 triplegrim wrote:
I DS'ed in 2003 during a tau game. And then again in may 2015 with belial. I guess it will be 12 years untill next time too, so I'm no enthusiast.

But DS and its qualities aside, the terminators would certainly benefit from being able to assault out of it, no?

Yes, I'd agree with that. Not sure I'd take them still, but I would think about it more.

Hi chaps. Just been reading through this lot and thought I'd stick my oar in. I've recently dipped my toe back into 40K after a fairly long break between 4th and 7th ed., so bear that in mind if you think I'm talking a load of mad old nonsense (which I may well be doing). Thought getting involved in this discussion might help brush up on some of the stuff I've missed when it comes to 7th, so thanks in advance if you choose to bear with me.

As far as I see it, thinking back to my take on them from 1st-4th ed, and Space Hulk, the standard thrust of what a Terminator squad OUGHT to be is being a very survivable unit of elite, close-quarter fighters. It seems to me like some of the suggestions on here want to turn them into more of a fire-support unit. I get the reasoning behind it (the prevalence of shooting over CC in 7th ed) but in my view that just kinda chucks what Termies have always been about in the bin. Personally, I'd be more interested in a way of making them work in keeping with their background, within the current ruleset.

As such, heres some stuff I like the sound of. Apologies if I'm just rehashing something I missed earlier in the thread.

1. Improving Storm Bolters. I'm not sure boosting the strength or AP really works, either from a fluff point of view, or the knock on effect for other weapons (particularly Heavy Bolters). I like the idea of them just being able to kick out a mad amount of shots for a small unit, as the TDA's bulk, coupled with targeters etc, is gonna provide a much more stable firing platform for the weapon. Now this may be my unfamiliarity with the latest ruleset, but what's the advantage to making them Salvo weapons, rather than just giving them Assault 4?

1b. Why not allow Termies with a SB to count it as an additional CC weapon in assault? They basically carry them like pistols already. And I guess you could argue, from a fluff perspective, that the best of the best of SMs are going to be familiar enough with the standard weapon fittings of TDA that they get this bonus even with a powerfist.

2. Armour. I'm pretty drawn to the idea of giving them a re-roll to their save (which, if my maths hasn't failed me is essentially equivalent to the "3+ on 2D6" save they had in 2nd ed.). Makes them all but impervious to small arms fire, and forces anyone who wants to take them down to basically use stuff that you'd use for dealing with tanks and that. Which seems to me to be the way is should be. Maybe with this, it's ok to leave the Inv. save as it is?

3. Some sort of in-game reflection of the fact all these guys are going to have hundreds of years' tactical experience, up to and including leading squads of regular Marines, and essentially functioning as single-man units in space hulk corridors. Plus they have all that biz where they can see what the other suits in their squad are seeing, etc. A couple of off-the-top-of my head ideas for this:

a. Let them split fire between enemy units? Coupled with better Storm Bolters, I feel like this could make them a bit more of a threat, shooting-wise.

b. Increase their unit coherency distance to 4"? Trying to get my head round whether this would be useful, but just thought I'd throw it out there and see what people make of it.

Anyway, be gentle, I'm new. Well, I'm old, but I've been away.

How's this for a merge of your suggestion and others:
-40ppm
-SBs become A3
-Split Fire
-Reroll failed Armor Saves
-2 Heavies per 5
?

It maintains their slow plodding theme, but brings in some fire support and Elite status (each member selects its own targets!).

For the +1 A for having the SB, do Termies need it? I've always felt that the SB just wasn't maneuverable like a pistol, especially while wearing Termie armor. Also note that Power Fists are Specialist weapons, so Pistol wouldn't do anything.

PF Termies hit really really hard in CC as is 2-3 S8AP2 attacks each really piles on the hurt. +1A doesn't seem necessary, with the other buffs especially.

As for A3 instead of A4, I'd rather the SB be "Boltgun++" instead of "Nearly-HB". another option would be RF2.

Finally, 2 Heavies per 5 with Split Fire can really make supporting use of a pair of CMLs or ACs.

Not sure if this is giving them too much for +5ppm, though.
What do you think, Lanrak?

I must admit, I deliberately steered clear of the points area of the discussion, since I don't feel like I have a solid enough grasp of the changes in points values since 3rd/4th to have a fully-formed opinion on them. Although given that a mega-armoured Nob has an extra wound and attack, and costs 40pts, I don't think that seems unreasonable if the Termies got the boosts you mentioned, Bharring.

Maybe they don't need the extra attack in CC for the SB guys; I just wondered if they needed a little extra something to make the SB a bit more of a desirable loadout compared to the other options.

Is the consensus that SBs taking 4 shots would be excessive? I just always got an impression of them, fluff-wise, as being geared towards pumping out a frankly ludicrous quantity of bolter shells, although maybe I'm letting Space Hulk creep into my thinking here too much.

Overall though, I wonder if a lot of the problems people have with Terminators is maybe that they were never really intended, originally, as a unit to wander around an open battlefield, so much as specialised close-quarters shock troops (cf Space Hulk again). Their whole vibe being more "pop out of teleporters or a LR in the thickest fighting and really badly mess up anything nearby" rather than "get into protracted firefights with dedicated fire support units".

Most don't think a4 would be excessive. I seem to be on the extreme side of not improving their firepower.

Stacked saves is another change that could help Termies, but that's more game changing, of course.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I see Termies as the rooks of 40k. Slowish and direct, but powerful.

(Although my experience with Chess was quite amateur.)

Increasing the shots on the stormbolter would not make me take terminators. Marines don't need more S4 shots to bounce off Wraithknights and IKs.

"Terminator squad OUGHT to be is being a very survivable unit of elite, close-quarter fighters"

But they just die like little bitches in 7th in the shooting phase. A list has to be able to handle multiple DKs and Riptides in 7th, which means by default they can handle terminators with ease. The bar has been raised; there is no place for terminators anymore.

To be honest a reroll to their armour save would really put a damper on the high-strength lots-o'-shots spam that is rather prevalent (looking at you, Eldar!) as a counter to Terminators. Grav-spam and the various Wraith weapons would still be a problem, however.

Nazrak wrote:
what's the advantage to making them Salvo weapons, rather than just giving them Assault 4?

Some good suggestions there Nazrak regarding split fire and extended unit coherency -it'd give them more tactical flexibility, and beig able to spread out would make them less susceptible to AP2 blast weapons, and most importantly as you mentioned, it would enhance the theme of the unit, in giving them rules that are reflective of their capabilities and tactical role -which to me is far more desirable than -as you rightly said- trying to turn them into something they aren't intended to be.

Regarding giving the sb salvo instead of assault. It's simply a balancing thing for power-armoured troops equipped with the sb. Salvo 2/4 would mean that such troops troops get less shots when moving and firing with a sb, but terminators would remain unaffected because they have relentless i.e. they could always fire the higher number of shots regardless of whether thy moved. To be honest though I'd sooner just make it assault 3 -less messy.

Cheers for clearing that up man – I guess that means you can stick with a unified Storm Bolter profile across the board rather than overloading the Terminators with special rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS Now I've got my head round Salvo, I'm into it, as it's in keeping with Terminators being able to kick out more SB rounds due to stability of being a big, solid gun platform.

Once again people forget there is an entire army (GK) with Stormbolters vanilla and another with it as a upgrade (SoB). Lets forget the whole Salvo concept it is a horrible idea and wouldn't solve anything, the Special Issue Ammunition is a better idea.

As I mentioned, I'm not hugely au fait with the Salvo rule – would it hugely negatively impact GK and SoB then?

Ironically... if you made Storm Bolters Salvo then GK PA in theory would become defunct, moreso than they already are. They would not be able to shoot or melee in the same turn and thus would have the worst ppm basic infantry army in the game. You would never see Power Armor models again, only terminators.

SoB are not a good choice for Storm Bolters to begin with, melta or flamers are a better choice. It would not affect them much. But it would take a underperforming weapon and putting it out of its misery Ole Yeller style.

Martel732 wrote:
Why? It's good enough for Eldar.

No, it's too good for everyone. I really don't see why you can't seem to grasp that, because it's already been explained repeatedly to you...
All I can guess is that you're deliberately being obtuse so you can have an excuse to demand a stupidly OP army.

Regarding the point regarding buffed Storm Bolter versus Heavy Stubber for Guard Vehicles now that the former would be better in every way... Honestly I think I'd fix that by dropping the price of the Stubber, maybe to 1 point or even free. If nothing else it'd be really fluffy, with the level of tech in 40k something like a Browning M2 would be incredibly easy to just whip up, but probably wouldn't do a lot.

As for the Salvo SB, I had been repeatedly mentioning that if it went that way it should have an "assault after firing" special rule attached to it so as not to screw over non-Relentless Storm Bolter users, but nobody really responded to it...
I had also considered the SB Pistol thing, simply because the proportions shown in some of the drawings make it look like a massive Bolt Pistol in some ways, and it's another solution to the Sergeant getting an extra attack to compensate for no Fist (between that and letting him swap his Sword for an Axe or Maul, people probably wouldn't hate him anymore!), and this way it wouldn't mean LC or TH/SS Sarges getting a bonus Attack (Which might be too much, and WOULD be weird for a choppy Deathwing Command Squad).

Assault from Deep Strike is a must. In fact I had said the GENERAL rule for DS should be that the unit chooses whether they'd shoot or charge that turn upon arriving, while Terms would get a special rule that lets them do both at once.

Regarding ignoring Unwieldy, that's probably too much on its own but a variant could be cool. For example maybe Unwieldy makes Terms Initiative D3 instead of Initiative 1 (probably rolled at the start of the Fight sub-phase, not sure whether it'd be for the whole unit or individuals) or maybe when they Charge they make an Initiative test that'll let them ignore Unwieldy for that turn if they pass, or when they charge they make their extra Attack from the charge at Initiative.

Im not sure for all the terminator, but I would be happy if my Deathwing termi can take 2 heavy weapon instead of 1. Just that, and I would see them more on the board I'm sure.

They are resilient, they DS and can do decent amount of damage in CC. Now, give them 2 Assault Cannon on 5man, and they could actually dish out some range damage as well.

People have been suggesting that, actually 2 Heavies per 5 guys in general sounds reasonable.