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Nagash can cast 8 DIFFERENT summoning spells per turn. He can't cast the same summoning spell more than once per turn.

He can't summon from warscroll's you don't have in play.

To summon 8 times, you need to have 8 different warscrolls with summoning abilities.

He is not OP. Get over it.

Less twisting words in the rules to suit your needs.

I play VC

 WillyGames wrote:
Nagash can cast 8 DIFFERENT summoning spells per turn. He can't cast the same summoning spell more than once per turn.

He can't summon from warscroll's you don't have in play.

To summon 8 times, you need to have 8 different warscrolls with summoning abilities.

He is not OP. Get over it.

Less twisting words in the rules to suit your needs.

I play VC

I highlighted the part that many people disagree with.

That's the issue. Many people interpret the rules that a Wizard CAN summon any unit you have in reserve regardless of whether or not you currently have a copy on the table. Anecdotal evidence from the Lizardmen War Scrolls backs up this interpretation. In fact, NOWHERE in the rules does it say that a unit has to be in play for the rules on its War Scroll to be active. Practically speaking, this is rarely contested because 99.9% of War Scroll abilities require a unit to be on the table to have any practical effect. Clanrats can re-roll to hit rolls of 1 if the unit numbers 20 or more? Useless ability unless the unit is on the table. Bloodletters grant Chaos Wizards the ability to summon Bloodletters? Useful ability regardless of whether or not the unit is on the table.

If you think I need a unit of Bloodletters in play and on the table for my Chaos Wizards to be able to summon more, please respond with a page and paragraph citation from the rules. Protip: there is nothing in the rules requiring a unit to be in play for its rules to exist. You simply need to bring the units/War Scrolls you're interested in playing with. Some deploy at the start of the game and some remain in reserve.

You can drop Nagash on the table and immediately summon 8 different units. The next turn you can do the same... and so on and so forth. A single, durable model has an incredible ability to bring additional units onto the battlefield. He's not necessarily overpowered... I can just take a couple dozen War Machines to deal with him immediately... but he does significantly change the landscape of any given game. As soon as you put him down, I no longer have the options of NOT taking tons of high powered, ranged units. He may not be overpowered, but he IS disproportionately powerful compared to the overwhelming majority of units in the game. He has the ability to generate tons of additional models per turn.

 Kriswall wrote:

 WillyGames wrote:
Nagash can cast 8 DIFFERENT summoning spells per turn. He can't cast the same summoning spell more than once per turn.

He can't summon from warscroll's you don't have in play.

To summon 8 times, you need to have 8 different warscrolls with summoning abilities.

He is not OP. Get over it.

Less twisting words in the rules to suit your needs.

I play VC

I highlighted the part that many people disagree with.

That's the issue. Many people interpret the rules that a Wizard CAN summon any unit you have in reserve regardless of whether or not you currently have a copy on the table. Anecdotal evidence from the Lizardmen War Scrolls backs up this interpretation. In fact, NOWHERE in the rules does it say that a unit has to be in play for the rules on its War Scroll to be active. Practically speaking, this is rarely contested because 99.9% of War Scroll abilities require a unit to be on the table to have any practical effect. Clanrats can re-roll to hit rolls of 1 if the unit numbers 20 or more? Useless ability unless the unit is on the table. Bloodletters grant Chaos Wizards the ability to summon Bloodletters? Useful ability regardless of whether or not the unit is on the table.

If you think I need a unit of Bloodletters in play and on the table for my Chaos Wizards to be able to summon more, please respond with a page and paragraph citation from the rules. Protip: there is nothing in the rules requiring a unit to be in play for its rules to exist. You simply need to bring the units/War Scrolls you're interested in playing with. Some deploy at the start of the game and some remain in reserve.

You can drop Nagash on the table and immediately summon 8 different units. The next turn you can do the same... and so on and so forth. A single, durable model has an incredible ability to bring additional units onto the battlefield. He's not necessarily overpowered... I can just take a couple dozen War Machines to deal with him immediately... but he does significantly change the landscape of any given game. As soon as you put him down, I no longer have the options of NOT taking tons of high powered, ranged units. He may not be overpowered, but he IS disproportionately powerful compared to the overwhelming majority of units in the game. He has the ability to generate tons of additional models per turn.

It does state you select warscrolls for models you intend to use for you army.

Whether 'use' means have on the table, or put in reserves is using is debatable, but it does mean you have to have the warscroll as part of your army selection.

The end result is if you are playing AoS in a system that requires you to have certain limits on how many units/what units you can take in your army those units not taken by your army cannot be in reserve and are not accessible to use as summons as they are not warscrolls in your army so you cannot claim the ability from those warscrolls exists in your army, since they are not present in the army.

while I agree you do not need a copy on the table, because if you select models to use that makeup a warscroll and opt to not deploy them, maybe they are in 'use' in reserves but they are definately warscrolls used to make up your army- then you can summon them. Even if the unit is wiped out technically the warscroll is still part of your army and you have the summon ability [I think some summons state if the unit is not on the tale cannot use, or unit must be on table, but cannot recall right now..]

This does prevent people from having every summon possible for their faction in a game where there are some rules/restrictions on army creation.

I run Nagash sometimes. Against my son with his giant and verminlord, i will. Against my wife and younger son, I don't. In my local flgs, it depends on what my opponent takes. If he brings a bloodthirster then i will bring out Nagash. I play for fun and i understand that some play to win. But with this in mind, if i do run Nagash i also tend to only use summoning if i am really in a spot to need to tarpit a unit or redirect a charge as i prefer to be tactical. Whilst the rules may well allow the endless summoning, i also feel that some people are going to extremes to find reasons as to why you need to have a "seed" unit. While Nagash is a great summoning unit, he is also and arguably just as good at buffing using mystic shield, and using his offensive spells to negate the enemy. Its a major part of AOS to try to be a good opponent, I have also witnesses VC do mass summoning after gaining sudden death and tbh if someone did that to me then i would question them if they wanted to play me again. It just not fun. Maybe i'm in the minority to prefer to enjoy the game over the winning.

Sorry to ramble but i hope you get my point.

blaktoof wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 WillyGames wrote:
Nagash can cast 8 DIFFERENT summoning spells per turn. He can't cast the same summoning spell more than once per turn.

He can't summon from warscroll's you don't have in play.

To summon 8 times, you need to have 8 different warscrolls with summoning abilities.

He is not OP. Get over it.

Less twisting words in the rules to suit your needs.

I play VC

I highlighted the part that many people disagree with.

That's the issue. Many people interpret the rules that a Wizard CAN summon any unit you have in reserve regardless of whether or not you currently have a copy on the table. Anecdotal evidence from the Lizardmen War Scrolls backs up this interpretation. In fact, NOWHERE in the rules does it say that a unit has to be in play for the rules on its War Scroll to be active. Practically speaking, this is rarely contested because 99.9% of War Scroll abilities require a unit to be on the table to have any practical effect. Clanrats can re-roll to hit rolls of 1 if the unit numbers 20 or more? Useless ability unless the unit is on the table. Bloodletters grant Chaos Wizards the ability to summon Bloodletters? Useful ability regardless of whether or not the unit is on the table.

If you think I need a unit of Bloodletters in play and on the table for my Chaos Wizards to be able to summon more, please respond with a page and paragraph citation from the rules. Protip: there is nothing in the rules requiring a unit to be in play for its rules to exist. You simply need to bring the units/War Scrolls you're interested in playing with. Some deploy at the start of the game and some remain in reserve.

You can drop Nagash on the table and immediately summon 8 different units. The next turn you can do the same... and so on and so forth. A single, durable model has an incredible ability to bring additional units onto the battlefield. He's not necessarily overpowered... I can just take a couple dozen War Machines to deal with him immediately... but he does significantly change the landscape of any given game. As soon as you put him down, I no longer have the options of NOT taking tons of high powered, ranged units. He may not be overpowered, but he IS disproportionately powerful compared to the overwhelming majority of units in the game. He has the ability to generate tons of additional models per turn.

It does state you select warscrolls for models you intend to use for you army.

Whether 'use' means have on the table, or put in reserves is using is debatable, but it does mean you have to have the warscroll as part of your army selection.

The end result is if you are playing AoS in a system that requires you to have certain limits on how many units/what units you can take in your army those units not taken by your army cannot be in reserve and are not accessible to use as summons as they are not warscrolls in your army so you cannot claim the ability from those warscrolls exists in your army, since they are not present in the army.

while I agree you do not need a copy on the table, because if you select models to use that makeup a warscroll and opt to not deploy them, maybe they are in 'use' in reserves but they are definately warscrolls used to make up your army- then you can summon them. Even if the unit is wiped out technically the warscroll is still part of your army and you have the summon ability [I think some summons state if the unit is not on the tale cannot use, or unit must be on table, but cannot recall right now..]

This does prevent people from having every summon possible for their faction in a game where there are some rules/restrictions on army creation.

'

I'm not interested in house rules restricting what you can take in your army. I was talking about Warhammer: Age of Sigmar and not Warhammer: Age of Sigmar - Local FLGS Edition. The core rules allow you to take bring whatever you intend to use. Whatever you don't deploy is left in reserve. There are no real limits on what you can deploy other than the size of your deployment zone and there are no real limits at all on what you can keep in reserve.

blaktoof wrote:

It does state you select warscrolls for models you intend to use for you army.

Whether 'use' means have on the table, or put in reserves is using is debatable, but it does mean you have to have the warscroll as part of your army selection.

The end result is if you are playing AoS in a system that requires you to have certain limits on how many units/what units you can take in your army those units not taken by your army cannot be in reserve and are not accessible to use as summons as they are not warscrolls in your army so you cannot claim the ability from those warscrolls exists in your army, since they are not present in the army.

while I agree you do not need a copy on the table, because if you select models to use that makeup a warscroll and opt to not deploy them, maybe they are in 'use' in reserves but they are definately warscrolls used to make up your army- then you can summon them. Even if the unit is wiped out technically the warscroll is still part of your army and you have the summon ability [I think some summons state if the unit is not on the tale cannot use, or unit must be on table, but cannot recall right now..]

This does prevent people from having every summon possible for their faction in a game where there are some rules/restrictions on army creation.

Which goes back to how you and your group build your armies.

In the base, free-form method, just having the models is enough, since they fall under the Reserves definition of "choose not to field".

On the other hand, if you and your group go by defined limits, such as the number of Wounds, Warscrolls, etc, than that could limit your Summoning options to what you "bring" to the game, as it limits what you "choose not to field".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:

I'm not interested in house rules restricting what you can take in your army. I was talking about Warhammer: Age of Sigmar and not Warhammer: Age of Sigmar - Local FLGS Edition. The core rules allow you to take bring whatever you intend to use. Whatever you don't deploy is left in reserve. There are no real limits on what you can deploy other than the size of your deployment zone and there are no real limits at all on what you can keep in reserve.

While what Blacktoof's FLGSs group decides may not affect you, the group you do play with will. So recognizing FLGS habits is a good thing to keep in mind, otherwise your gaming will become even more limited.

 WillyGames wrote:
Nagash can cast 8 DIFFERENT summoning spells per turn. He can't cast the same summoning spell more than once per turn.

He can't summon from warscroll's you don't have in play.

To summon 8 times, you need to have 8 different warscrolls with summoning abilities.

He is not OP. Get over it.

Less twisting words in the rules to suit your needs.

I play VC

Cool. Then you logically have no problem playing multiple copies of the same named character, right? Because that's a direct consequence of your line of thinking.

Charistoph, Kriswall is saying that he is talking about base rules only. Anyone can modify them as they prefer, but the subject here are the base rules - otherwise we'd all be talking about different versions that are played in our gaming circles.

If you really want to argue RAW with AoS, you're getting nowhere with this. If you wanted to argue RAW, you'd have to have a rule that precisely and explicitely tells you how summoning works in regards to war scrolls.

What either side does here isn't RAW, it's your very own house rule as you use rules from army composition and try to stick them on another part of the rules. Not RAW either.

Charistoph wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

It does state you select warscrolls for models you intend to use for you army.

Whether 'use' means have on the table, or put in reserves is using is debatable, but it does mean you have to have the warscroll as part of your army selection.

The end result is if you are playing AoS in a system that requires you to have certain limits on how many units/what units you can take in your army those units not taken by your army cannot be in reserve and are not accessible to use as summons as they are not warscrolls in your army so you cannot claim the ability from those warscrolls exists in your army, since they are not present in the army.

while I agree you do not need a copy on the table, because if you select models to use that makeup a warscroll and opt to not deploy them, maybe they are in 'use' in reserves but they are definately warscrolls used to make up your army- then you can summon them. Even if the unit is wiped out technically the warscroll is still part of your army and you have the summon ability [I think some summons state if the unit is not on the tale cannot use, or unit must be on table, but cannot recall right now..]

This does prevent people from having every summon possible for their faction in a game where there are some rules/restrictions on army creation.

Which goes back to how you and your group build your armies.

In the base, free-form method, just having the models is enough, since they fall under the Reserves definition of "choose not to field".

On the other hand, if you and your group go by defined limits, such as the number of Wounds, Warscrolls, etc, than that could limit your Summoning options to what you "bring" to the game, as it limits what you "choose not to field".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:

I'm not interested in house rules restricting what you can take in your army. I was talking about Warhammer: Age of Sigmar and not Warhammer: Age of Sigmar - Local FLGS Edition. The core rules allow you to take bring whatever you intend to use. Whatever you don't deploy is left in reserve. There are no real limits on what you can deploy other than the size of your deployment zone and there are no real limits at all on what you can keep in reserve.

While what Blacktoof's FLGSs group decides may not affect you, the group you do play with will. So recognizing FLGS habits is a good thing to keep in mind, otherwise your gaming will become even more limited.

I agree with you, it is ultimately based on your groups/tournaments ruling on what makes up the army. If your army has limits, the warscrolls in the army are what you can summon. If your army has no limits and you say "My army has max allowed models of every warscroll, but im only setting up these" then you can summon whatever.

Vetril wrote:
Charistoph, Kriswall is saying that he is talking about base rules only. Anyone can modify them as they prefer, but the subject here are the base rules - otherwise we'd all be talking about different versions that are played in our gaming circles.

I understand perfectly well what he is talking about. And I have kept my comments noted as to what which side of the fence they are on as they apply.

However, Age of Sigmar is as much run by House Rules as the base rules, ESPECIALLY when it comes to army building, so ignoring the fact that House Rules exist and will affect the outcome is counter-productive at best.

 WillyGames wrote:
Nagash can cast 8 DIFFERENT summoning spells per turn. He can't cast the same summoning spell more than once per turn.

He can't summon from warscroll's you don't have in play.

To summon 8 times, you need to have 8 different warscrolls with summoning abilities.

He is not OP. Get over it.

Less twisting words in the rules to suit your needs.

I play VC

Hysterical. He's the most powerful character in the game, but not OP

Saying "I play VC" just tells us why you think he's not that powerful



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:
If you really want to argue RAW with AoS, you're getting nowhere with this. If you wanted to argue RAW, you'd have to have a rule that precisely and explicitely tells you how summoning works in regards to war scrolls.

What either side does here isn't RAW, it's your very own house rule as you use rules from army composition and try to stick them on another part of the rules. Not RAW either.

And hell, i'm still waiting on the definition of RAW. Did anyone ever bother to define them, and if so, how many pages did the argument go?

RAW on Summoning can be found easily enough.

Page 1. Armies

"Armies can be as big as you like, and you can use as many models from your collection as you wish."

So, I bring my entire collection, including units I am considering to deploy and units I am considering not to (but the decision need not be made until deployment, as seen later.)

Page 1. Warscrolls and Units

"All models are described by warscrolls, which provide all of the rules for using them in the game. You will need warscrolls for the models you want to use."

There is no "in play" or any such qualifier written here. Just a simple fact: you need warscrolls to use a relevant unit. In the same way you need dice to determine dice rolls.

If we look at the two parts together that means I can bring my entire collection as long as I have warscrolls for each unit.

Page 2. Set-Up

"The players then alternate setting up units, one at a time, starting with the player that won the earlier dice roll. Models must be set up in their own territory, more than 12" from enemy territory.
You can continue setting up units until you have set up all the units you want to fight in this battle, or have run out of space. This is your army. Count the number of models in your army – this may come in useful later. Any remaining units are held in reserve, playing no part unless fate lends a hand."

Here is where I make the decision on what will be deployed and what will be summonable. All units I didn't play are placed in reserve.

From various warscrolls

We have various units that are deployed from reserve to the game as per an ability on their warscroll. For example:

Night Goblin Fanatics

Joseph Bugman

Skaven Assassins

If I need a seed unit for summoning units, I need a seed unit for these too.

 mikhaila wrote:

And hell, i'm still waiting on the definition of RAW. Did anyone ever bother to define them, and if so, how many pages did the argument go?

RAW = literally how it's explained. In detail: the rules explicitely explain how to handle an issue, e.g. "You cannot re-roll a re-roll.". This summoning debate in this very thread is a good example of what RAW is /not/. It's not RAW if you take a sentence out of one chapter and thus out of its initial context to apply it on another topic. That's not RAW. That's your interpreation of the RAW.

Vetril wrote:

 WillyGames wrote:
Nagash can cast 8 DIFFERENT summoning spells per turn. He can't cast the same summoning spell more than once per turn.

He can't summon from warscroll's you don't have in play.

To summon 8 times, you need to have 8 different warscrolls with summoning abilities.

He is not OP. Get over it.

Less twisting words in the rules to suit your needs.

I play VC

Cool. Then you logically have no problem playing multiple copies of the same named character, right? Because that's a direct consequence of your line of thinking.

Charistoph, Kriswall is saying that he is talking about base rules only. Anyone can modify them as they prefer, but the subject here are the base rules - otherwise we'd all be talking about different versions that are played in our gaming circles.

I have no problem people summoning named characters if thats whats the rule allows. It does seem pretty odd though.....which is why the summoning spells for these types of summons don't say "Summon 'Named Character'" they say "Summon "Generic Character Name'".

GW intentions on summoning is pretty clear cut. The arguments I'm seeing here are desperate grasping of straws.

 WillyGames wrote:
oning named characters if thats whats the rule allows. It does seem pretty odd though.....which is why the summoning spells for these types of summons don't say "Summon 'Named Character'" they say "Summon "Generic Character Name'".

GW intentions on summoning is pretty clear cut.

Your guess on GW rule writing intentions is as "clear cut" as winning the lottery. Anything else is a blatant lie.

If you require a seed unit then you either allow people to summon another named character that is the same individual already on the battlefield (as explicitly states by the summoning spell) or you recognize that that specific summoning spell is useless.
Furthermore, if rules written on warscrolls of units that don't start on the battlefield can't be referenced in the game, you'll have to explain me how assassins and Bugman work, exactly.
Seems to me that your ruling runs into contradictions, so I guess it is wrong.

 WillyGames wrote:

Vetril wrote:

 WillyGames wrote:
Nagash can cast 8 DIFFERENT summoning spells per turn. He can't cast the same summoning spell more than once per turn.

He can't summon from warscroll's you don't have in play.

To summon 8 times, you need to have 8 different warscrolls with summoning abilities.

He is not OP. Get over it.

Less twisting words in the rules to suit your needs.

I play VC

Cool. Then you logically have no problem playing multiple copies of the same named character, right? Because that's a direct consequence of your line of thinking.

Charistoph, Kriswall is saying that he is talking about base rules only. Anyone can modify them as they prefer, but the subject here are the base rules - otherwise we'd all be talking about different versions that are played in our gaming circles.

I have no problem people summoning named characters if thats whats the rule allows. It does seem pretty odd though.....which is why the summoning spells for these types of summons don't say "Summon 'Named Character'" they say "Summon "Generic Character Name'".

GW intentions on summoning is pretty clear cut. The arguments I'm seeing here are desperate grasping of straws.

Please provide citations of any rules that suggest seed units being a requirement.

There are none.

I still cant work out why people are trying to be so competitive with this system......."you cant! whah!, you cant! whah! whah! whah!" get over it and play the game.

1) Based on the rules IMO you can summon everything you have a warscroll of (the unit does not have to be on the table, the rules do not state that anywhere).
So untill there is a restriction of the warscrolls you may take, you make take all and summon everything you want.

2) I don't understand either why there is discussion in regard to competitive play with a system that is just not fit for that.
It might become in the future, but as is, it is not.

Hettar wrote:
I still cant work out why people are trying to be so competitive with this system......."you cant! whah!, you cant! whah! whah! whah!" get over it and play the game.

You can't just "play the game" when it is unclear how such a fundamental concept works. Even if you're just chomping pretzels and chugging bear, the question "what can my wizard summon" matters.

Read the rules. Do not assume anything. Read ONLY what is in the rules. Summoning does NOT require a "seed" unit.

This concept is coming from preconceived notions people have or from their dislike of the rule. The rule is clear. Read the warscrolls, they say "XXX wizards know the summon XXX spell in addition to any others they know." No mention of any other requirements. Rules sorted, feel free to house rule as you see fit.

 Todosi wrote:
Read the rules. Do not assume anything. Read ONLY what is in the rules. Summoning does NOT require a "seed" unit.

Actually, it does, in a way. As was pointed out with the Reserves rule, anything not put on the table is in Reserves. So, the models need to be available to be Summoned.

My point is you don't need the same unit on the table to summon that unit.

 Todosi wrote:
My point is you don't need the same unit on the table to summon that unit.

I know, but the point still stands.

 Todosi wrote:
Read the rules. Do not assume anything. Read ONLY what is in the rules. Summoning does NOT require a "seed" unit.

This concept is coming from preconceived notions people have or from their dislike of the rule. The rule is clear. Read the warscrolls, they say "XXX wizards know the summon XXX spell in addition to any others they know." No mention of any other requirements. Rules sorted, feel free to house rule as you see fit.

And I contend it is just as much a house rule to declare that a model not on the table is conferring a special rule to one on the table.

Show me, in the rules, where the special rules and effects of units in reserves affect the board? You can't.

Tomb Priests have a special item that lets them dispel a spell without rolling. By your logic, I could say " I have about 50 liche priests in my bag here, I'm going to put them in reserves. Oh, and I'm going to use their scrolls to dispel all your magic, so we can skip that phase."

And before you waste your time, there's no rule that says "You cannot use items and spells of units in reserve.", remember? As soon as you start saying "Rules don't say I can't.", any game falls apart.

 Thunderfrog wrote:

 Todosi wrote:
Read the rules. Do not assume anything. Read ONLY what is in the rules. Summoning does NOT require a "seed" unit.

This concept is coming from preconceived notions people have or from their dislike of the rule. The rule is clear. Read the warscrolls, they say "XXX wizards know the summon XXX spell in addition to any others they know." No mention of any other requirements. Rules sorted, feel free to house rule as you see fit.

And I contend it is just as much a house rule to declare that a model not on the table is conferring a special rule to one on the table.

Show me, in the rules, where the special rules and effects of units in reserves affect the board? You can't.

Show me where they don't. You can't. I, on the other hand, can point at a War Scroll, which is a part of the rule set and say, "See! Right there. It says my Wizard can summon these dudes right there.".

Tomb Priests have a special item that lets them dispel a spell without rolling. By your logic, I could say " I have about 50 liche priests in my bag here, I'm going to put them in reserves. Oh, and I'm going to use their scrolls to dispel all your magic, so we can skip that phase."

Unbinding requires that the Wizard making the roll be within 18" of the caster and have line of sight. Your example is invalid because your 50 Liche Priests aren't on the table within 18" of the caster and certainly don't have line of sight in your bag. Do you maybe have another example that isn't invalid?

And before you waste your time, there's no rule that says "You cannot use items and spells of units in reserve.", remember? As soon as you start saying "Rules don't say I can't.", any game falls apart.

Except that's not what's happening here. I have a War Scroll for a unit I've brought to the game and that is currently in reserve. The War Scroll specifically tells me that X Wizards gain the Summon Y spell. This is a rule. It's written on paper. In the absence of something telling me I CAN'T use my rules, I'm going to assume I have access to all of the rules in front of me.

TL: DR; I have a rule saying I can do X. Unless you can provide a counter-citation saying I can't do X OR that I'm not allowed to read my rules and therefore don't know about X, I'm going to assume I can do X.

Show me where they don't. You can't. I, on the other hand, can point at a War Scroll, which is a part of the rule set and say, "See! Right there. It says my Wizard can summon these dudes right there.".

And right there's the crux of the issue. I don't believe the rules from a warscroll in reserve can be used. You do. Neither of us can point out without fail where they can. But many people are screaming about how people who see it my way are just being whiny babies upset about Sigmarules and we need to get over it. There's no more validity in "Show me where I can't." than there is "Show me where I can."

Unbinding requires that the Wizard making the roll be within 18" of the caster and have line of sight. Your example is invalid because your 50 Liche Priests aren't on the table within 18" of the caster and certainly don't have line of sight in your bag. Do you maybe have another example that isn't invalid?

Scrying Pool: Staring into the pool of virgins’ blood at the foot of the throne, the handmaidens can discern glimpses of the future. Once per game, you can re-roll any dice roll of your choice.

Cunning and Intrigue: The legendary beauty and scrying talents of Lahmian vampires allow them to move through mortal society, seeding their minions where they can disrupt and take dvantage of enemy plans. If a Lahmian Vampire atop a Coven Throne uses this ability, and the dice rolled at the start of the next battle round is a tie, you can decide who will take the first turn of that battle round.

Impeccable Foresight: Lord Kroak casts his consciousness ahead, reading the threads of destiny as easily as a mortal would read a map. If Lord Kroak uses this ability, roll three dice. For ach one that scores 4 or more, Lord Kroak gains an insight into the future. Each insight can be used to re-roll any single dice before your next hero phase.

 Thunderfrog wrote:

Show me where they don't. You can't. I, on the other hand, can point at a War Scroll, which is a part of the rule set and say, "See! Right there. It says my Wizard can summon these dudes right there.".

And right there's the crux of the issue. I don't believe the rules from a warscroll in reserve can be used. You do. Neither of us can point out without fail where they can. But many people are screaming about how people who see it my way are just being whiny babies upset about Sigmarules and we need to get over it. There's no more validity in "Show me where I can't." than there is "Show me where I can."

Well, the show me where I can is pretty easy. It's written there right on the sheet of paper. It's a rule. I can't get more simple than that. This isn't WFB 8th Edition. This isn't W40K 7th Edition. There isn't a section telling me when I can and can't have access to a model's rules. Since there is not section telling me that I SOMETIMES can't have access to the game rules, I fall back on the general assumption that if the company published a rule, that I can use that rule.

If your contention is that sometimes I can use my rules and sometimes I can't use my rules, the burden of proof is on you. You don't believe the rules from a War Scroll in reserve can be used. Why do you have that belief? You're trying to add a restriction that isn't there. I don't know if it's confirmation bias based on an older system or what, but an imaginary restriction it is nonetheless. Can you help me understand where that belief is coming from? I can't find anything anywhere in the rules that would lead me to believe that some rules are only valid sometimes and at other times are invalid.

Because it's in the flow of the game, Kriswall.

I can't use command abilities with my general off the field, can I? There's nothing telling me I can't shoot with units in reserve. There's nothing telling me I can't arrow of kurnoise from off field. There's nothing stopping me from using all the above abilities I listed in infinite duplicate as long as I own a workable model for them, is there?

Unless you follow the pretty basic (might be old edition bias) that stuff on the field is used actively, stuff off the field is not. I suppose that's the line you want me to prove, and I can't. I can find small hints, but nothing solid.

Like the following.

It says in the set up phase that's what's on the table is your army. Everything else is in reserve.

Reading down to the Hero Phase, it states.

"In your hero phase you can use the wizards in your army to cast spells (see the rules for wizards on the last page of these rules).

In addition, other units in your army may have abilities on their warscrolls that can be used in the hero phase."

Anything on a warscroll not an attack profile is an ability. You can only use abilities for units "in your army." Not, "in your army or in reserves."

So you would check at the start of each hero phase, what abilities you have available. If there are skeletons on the board, your death wizards know "summon skeleton." If there are not, I would imagine not, because the skeletons in reserve don't get the benefit of their "Summon skeleton" ability, which grants wizards the spell "Summon skeleton, because that is an ability, and only models in your army are told they are allowed to use abilities, not models in reserve.

I still think the whole argument is silly.

GW made AOS dead simple. People read to much into situations. The rules for summoning units are on the warscrolls because it was easy to put them there, rather than have lots of extra pages for summoning units. And going forward, new units that come out will have their summoning rules on their warscroll. It's for convenience, not to create convoluted summoning rules.