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I hear that a lot lately.

Kriswall wrote:This can be argued either way. Sure, the summoning spells typically just tell you to "set up a unit". My contention is that the overall rules on mustering you army dictate what you have available. If you have no unit available to set up, the summon spell effectively fails even if the cast is successful. You aren't told you have to set up a unit or model, you're told you CAN set up a unit or model. My contention is that the permission to set up a unit or model is contingent upon said unit or model being available for set up.

I can cast Raise Zombies all day long and have the spell cast successfully... but if I don't have any Zombies available, I can't really set anything up. My reading is that the only available units/models are the ones I've held back in reserve. I've supported my interpretation in my previous comments.

And yet, units that have been killed will also provide models available, and without any notation of having been placed in Reserve.

The only requirements for Summoning are having an appropriate Wizard to cast the spell and models to place. Can you point to where a Summon spell requires a unit be in Reserves to function?

Note that this is not part of anything to do with units that "self-summon" based on their Abilities like the Green Knight.

I think the reserve pile and the dead pile will be one and the same, as it's essentially models you want to use that aren't currently in use.

I just played a game with summoning, and it isn't too bad unless you're up against someone who isn't worried about enjoying the game. Play a few games with it and learn just how un-overpowered it is.

Glad this has been cleared up by GW reps at Gen-con, if its in your collection summon it!

Hettar wrote:
Glad this has been cleared up by GW reps at Gen-con, if its in your collection summon it!

Did they mention whether you can summon a unit that has been slain, since this means it is "removed from play"?

Hettar wrote:
Glad this has been cleared up by GW reps at Gen-con, if its in your collection summon it!

This isn't particularly helpful. You obviously can't summon units you don't own as you'd have nothing to put on the table. Nobody has contested that you must own the unit to be able to summon it.

Specifically...

1. Do your wizards know the appropriate summoning spell if a 'seed' unit isn't on the table?
2. Can you re-summon a unit that has been removed from play, most likely through application of damage?

Snapshot wrote:

Hettar wrote:
Glad this has been cleared up by GW reps at Gen-con, if its in your collection summon it!

Did they mention whether you can summon a unit that has been slain, since this means it is "removed from play"?

Technically, you're not summoning a unit that has been slain, you are summoning a new unit, and just reusing the models from the slain unit to represent them on the table.

 Kriswall wrote:

Hettar wrote:
Glad this has been cleared up by GW reps at Gen-con, if its in your collection summon it!

This isn't particularly helpful. You obviously can't summon units you don't own as you'd have nothing to put on the table. Nobody has contested that you must own the unit to be able to summon it.

Specifically...

1. Do your wizards know the appropriate summoning spell if a 'seed' unit isn't on the table?
2. Can you re-summon a unit that has been removed from play, most likely through application of damage?

1., I'd say yes.
WARSCROLLS AND UNITS
All models are described by warscrolls, which provide all the rules for using them in the game. You will need warscrolls for the models you want to use.
If you want to use a unit, you have the warscroll. That's the only qualifier. Not "If you want to set the unit up" or "if you want to leave the unit in reserve" or anything else.
If you have the warscroll, then you have the rules on the warscroll. Granted, the vast majority of rules on a warscroll do nothing without a model on the board, but the rules are still there.


2.,Summoning does not specify that summoned units have to be taken from reserves, it simply specifies that they can be set up.
For a unit to be set up, it has to be physically available to the owning player but not currently on the board. Minis you've just put back in your figure case due to being nuked meet all those criteria.

Charistoph wrote:

Snapshot wrote:

Hettar wrote:
Glad this has been cleared up by GW reps at Gen-con, if its in your collection summon it!

Did they mention whether you can summon a unit that has been slain, since this means it is "removed from play"?

Technically, you're not summoning a unit that has been slain, you are summoning a new unit, and just reusing the models from the slain unit to represent them on the table.

And that would be the point of question. A real world limitation of summoning is how many models you have in your collection. Once a unit is slain, it goes from the reserve to the out-of-play category. So if you have N units at the start of play available for summoning (in reserve), can you summon more than N through the game? It's the affect of the change in category that is the issue I think.

i just found this little gem in the scenery rules under bale-wind vortex's "Bale-wind Call: If you have a Balewind Vortex model, Wizards in your army know the Summon Bale-wind Vortex spellin addition to any others they know"

That's conclusive evidence that summoning restrictions are wrong.

Not really.

The wording is different.

Summon spells specifically call out units in your army. The vortex is summoned if you own it.

If the unit summons were worded that way, there would be no question.

Hettar wrote:
i just found this little gem in the scenery rules under bale-wind vortex's "Bale-wind Call: If you have a Balewind Vortex model, Wizards in your army know the Summon Bale-wind Vortex spellin addition to any others they know"

That's conclusive evidence that summoning restrictions are wrong.

I tend to agree. Per the Warscroll, it is impossible to set up a Balewind Vortex at the start of the game. The ONLY way to get a Balewind Vortex on the table is through the Summon Balewind Vortex spell. The only way to EVER be able to use this piece of scenery is if there is NO REQUIREMENT for a 'seed' unit.

Requiring a 'seed' unit also necessarily means that the Balewind Vortex can NEVER be used. This is a ridiculous conclusion. The reasonable person would say that it's far more likely that no 'seed' unit is required and that Balewind Vortex models can be used in game.

Thank goodness there's actually a 100% clear rules circumstance to put this to rest.

Hettar wrote:
i just found this little gem in the scenery rules under bale-wind vortex's "Bale-wind Call: If you have a Balewind Vortex model, Wizards in your army know the Summon Bale-wind Vortex spellin addition to any others they know"

That's conclusive evidence that summoning restrictions are wrong.

Translated from GW Mindset:

"Wow, and if want to put one of these cool puppies on the table, run on down and buy one! Soon as you own one to summon, all your wizards automatically know the spell! Can't summon what you don't have, so get one quick!"


And no, I'm not taking the piss, dead serious. That rule just means "if you own it you can summon it".

They aren't getting real clever with Age of Sigmar, just the opposite.

They don't care if a unit is on the table, or reserve, or you printed out the warscroll. Own the models? Yep, good to go, get summoning.

Rules as intended. If you have a wizard on the table he has his spells. In order to summon units you need that unit on the table in the first place. Say you have zombies and a necromancer. That necromancer can now summon zombies along with his other spells. If that unit of zombies dies or was never in your army in the first place( remember your army is not what you bring, its what you put on the table) then the necromancer no longer has a summon ability as there is no unit for him to summon as without that unit he doesn't have the summon ability listed on his warscroll.

Now unless someone can tell me on any warscroll that says this wizard knows the summon spell then without the unit in your army you can`t summon it as the wizard has no ability to do so without that unit or spell

 Motograter wrote:
Rules as intended. If you have a wizard on the table he has his spells. In order to summon units you need that unit on the table in the first place. Say you have zombies and a necromancer. That necromancer can now summon zombies along with his other spells. If that unit of zombies dies or was never in your army in the first place( remember your army is not what you bring, its what you put on the table) then the necromancer no longer has a summon ability as there is no unit for him to summon as without that unit he doesn't have the summon ability listed on his warscroll.

Now unless someone can tell me on any warscroll that says this wizard knows the summon spell then without the unit in your army you can`t summon it as the wizard has no ability to do so without that unit or spell

Can you justify the above highlighted sentence with actual rules, or is this just an opinion? I can't find anything, anywhere in the core rules telling you that rules cease to exist when a unit is on the table. Remember that granting the summon spells isn't a warscroll ABILITY, it's simply additional Magic rules that happen to be on the warscroll and not elsewhere.

Does any wizard come with the summon spell on their scroll, it is an extra ability but you only get that ability from a summonable unit. If said unit is not in your army that you declare and put on the table said unit gives no spell to your wizard. Just my opinion but like I said your army is what you put on the table not what's in your bag.

As per my example with zombies
The "Raise Zombies" spell is on the Zombies warscroll and the Necromancer can only use it when the Zombies warscroll is in play. Your army is built using warscrolls you are using not ones you may have brought

 Motograter wrote:
Does any wizard come with the summon spell on their scroll, it is an extra ability but you only get that ability from a summonable unit. If said unit is not in your army that you declare and put on the table said unit gives no spell to your wizard. Just my opinion but like I said your army is what you put on the table not what's in your bag.

As per my example with zombies
The "Raise Zombies" spell is on the Zombies warscroll and the Necromancer can only use it when the Zombies warscroll is in play. Your army is built using warscrolls you are using not ones you may have brought

The summon spells are not abilities. They are listed in the Magic section of each warscroll and NOT in the Abilities section. Try again.

Miss use of words mate. Get over it.

Point still stands that you need the warscroll for what you're summoning in play as opposed to in your case

This is why locally we have said you need the warscroll initially in your.chosen and deployed forces. But if a unit dies you don't cease having the ability, after all ypu took the scroll.

It is simple and balances things a bit in a "take what you want to summon more of, pluse it works with the unique lizardmans fairly well, since if they kill a unique guy you can resummon him since you took that scroll this game.

 Motograter wrote:
Miss use of words mate. Get over it.

Point still stands that you need the warscroll for what you're summoning in play as opposed to in your case

Again, is this your opinion or can you cite rules? I see no rule telling me to ignore war scroll details when an example unit is not on the table.

Also, I agree that a unit generally needs to be 'in play' to be able to use an ABILITY. There are isolated exceptions (see Josef Bugman's deployment method as an example). I don't agree that a unit needs to be 'in play' for its rules to exist.


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Demandread wrote:
This is why locally we have said you need the warscroll initially in your.chosen and deployed forces. But if a unit dies you don't cease having the ability, after all ypu took the scroll.

It is simple and balances things a bit in a "take what you want to summon more of, pluse it works with the unique lizardmans fairly well, since if they kill a unique guy you can resummon him since you took that scroll this game.

This is an interesting house rule, and I'm glad it works for your local group, but it has no bearing on the rules discussion at hand. We're trying to work out how things are supposed to work, not how we're all choosing to play things.

There are specific examples of units (Balewind Vortex) that CAN'T be deployed on the table and can ONLY be put on the table via a summoning spell. Requiring a 'seed' unit means the Balewind Vortex is impossible to field. No reasonable person would think the rules were written in such a way to flat preclude a unit's use.

That would be HYWPI, not RAW.

RAW is have the models? Summon away. Any other interpretation involves making up rules.

If you guys want to implement the whole seed unit thing for balance that's 100% dandy, but it's not RAW, and should probably be represented as a house rule in posts for the sake of new players. They're gonna be confused enough as it is.

 Motograter wrote:
Now unless someone can tell me on any warscroll that says this wizard knows the summon spell then without the unit in your army you can`t summon it as the wizard has no ability to do so without that unit or spell

Any unit not deployed in on the table is considered to be in Reserve and subject to the winds of fate to arrive on the battlefield. According to the base rules, if you have the models and the Warscroll, they are in your army, even if they are not on the table.

Now, if you have already agreed to limit your army to a certain number of Warscrolls, than the Wizard can only summon according to that Warscroll list. But that first part limiting the number of Warscrolls is a House Rule, anyway.

It has as much bearing as what you have said and is far less confrontational in tone.

You Vortex example is not relevant as the rules on that piece of terrain are explicit in how it enters play. Most other summons grant a spell and there is nothing in the rules stating that you can use a spell on a warscroll you did not field.

4pages of rules state clearly that your army is made up of warscrolls.

You deploy units until you do not want to deploy any more. Those unit and their warscrolls are your army. It's that simple. If you wanted access to a warscroll you either field it or it must give you Explicit rules on how it enters play. Such as the vortex.

Demandread wrote:
It has as much bearing as what you have said and is far less confrontational in tone.

You Vortex example is not relevant as the rules on that piece of terrain are explicit in how it enters play. Most other summons grant a spell and there is nothing in the rules stating that you can use a spell on a warscroll you did not field.

4pages of rules state clearly that your army is made up of warscrolls.

You deploy units until you do not want to deploy any more. Those unit and their warscrolls are your army. It's that simple. If you wanted access to a warscroll you either field it or it must give you Explicit rules on how it enters play. Such as the vortex.

Can you cite the specific rule saying that rules cease to exist when a unit is not on the table. That would be helpful. I've read through the 4 pages numerous times and am unable to find anything.

Assuming you also can't find anything telling me that rules cease to exist when a representative unit is not on the table, I'll assume the rules do exist and I'll keep using them.

Games Workshop isn't trying to trick us. Death Wizards can summon Skeletons. Chaos Wizards can summon Daemons. It's not a copy spell, it's a summon spell.

WARSCROLLS AND UNITS
All models are described by warscrolls, which provide all the rules for using them in the game. You will need warscrolls for the models you want to use.

This seems to be the only qualifier on summoning. Want to take summoned units then you need the warscroll. You are by the very action of summoning using that unit.

Nowhere does it say if you take the warscroll you must place the unit it represents on the table at the start of the game.

The rules have no warscroll limits so if you add anything like that to the rules you're already deviating from RAW
G

Demandread wrote:
4 pages of rules state clearly that your army is made up of warscrolls.

Not quite. It is made up of units set up at the beginning of the game. What is in dispute is how Warscrolls are excluded from your army.

Demandread wrote:
You deploy units until you do not want to deploy any more. Those unit and their warscrolls are your army. It's that simple. If you wanted access to a warscroll you either field it or it must give you Explicit rules on how it enters play. Such as the vortex.

"You can continue setting up units until you have set up all the units you want to fight in this battle, or have run out of space. This is your army. Count the number of models in your army – this may come in useful later. Any remaining units are held in reserve, playing no part unless fate lends a hand."

Nothing about excluding Warscrolls for units you have chosen not to put on the board/held in reserve. And rolling the dice to cast a spell is one way fate lends a hand. Other units may have their own ways, such as the Green Knight who actually cannot be setup on the board at the beginning of the game.

The sticking point seems to be "fate lends a hand" has no RAW attached to it just house rules.

Especially when it says what you set up is your army. What you didn't set up is therefore not your army. Why is it assumed that you get the abilities of anything not on your army?

To me it seems more logical that "fate lends a hand" includes and currently only means "a unit not in play needs specific rules on bringing it in play to "summon" it if it is not in your army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


WARSCROLLS AND UNITS
All models are described by warscrolls, which provide all the rules for using them in the game. You will need warscrolls for the models you want to use.


"You can continue setting up units until you have set up all the units you want to fight in this battle, or have run out of space.

Units you want to use/fight are both listed here
If you did not set up the model you must have not wanted To use it...so you don't have that warscroll to use in that game.

Demandread wrote:
WARSCROLLS AND UNITS
All models are described by warscrolls, which provide all the rules for using them in the game. You will need warscrolls for the models you want to use.

"You can continue setting up units until you have set up all the units you want to fight in this battle, or have run out of space.

Units you want to use/fight are both listed here
If you did not set up the model you must have not wanted To use it...so you don't have that warscroll to use in that game.

Where does it state that if the unit is not on the table, you do not have the Warscroll? You demonstrated that the Warscroll defines the unit, but you need to demonstrate that if the unit is excluded, so is the Warscroll. This has yet to be demonstrated.