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Who? The firing player. When? I don't know.

But without the scattered unit being selected as a target hits/wounds can't be allocated to it

The attacking player only selects the unit he places the blast over as a target. he Does not select which unit the blast scatters on to

Breton wrote:

But without the scattered unit being selected as a target hits/wounds can't be allocated to it

ok i'll bite is this in the BRB?

axisofentropy wrote:

Breton wrote:

But without the scattered unit being selected as a target hits/wounds can't be allocated to it

ok i'll bite is this in the BRB?

"Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit..."

So either we have permission to allocate wounds resulting from hits against a unit to another unit, or more sensibly units that take hits from blast weapons become target units, although they are not selected as targets (hence no Jink).

It's quite simple.
1 Nominate a unit to shoot.
2 Declare a target.
2.5 Target decides to Jink
3. Choose a weapon
3.5 Last chance for target to Jink
4 Roll To Hit (or roll scatter)
5 Roll To Wound
6 Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties
7 Choose another weapon.

As you can see, secondary units may become "targets", however the wording of Jink prevents any unit other than the original target from declaring Jink.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
Jink is declared when a unit is targeted, regardless of blasts.
If you are the target then you can declare jink, if you are not targeted then you cannot.

I.E.
Bro 1: my vindicator is going to shoot at wave serpent A

Bro 2: alright, wave serpent A will jink

Bro 1 rolls for scatter and full scatters into wave serpent B

Wave serpent B cannot jink because it was not the primary target and it has passed the time to declare jink.
Its not TFG to say you cant redeclare jink once past the time to do so

So why can Wave Serpent B not declare jink when, as per the rules for blast weapons, it has become a target unit? Does "being a target unit" for the purposes of allocating wounds and vehicle damage not count for "being targeted"?

That is the only requirement, with the restriction that no To Hit rolls have yet been made, and Blast weapons do not roll To Hit.

If you disagree please provide rules support, rather than just your opinion

I litteraly just did what you are asking, but ill do it again,

Declaring a target is litterally pointing at a unit and saying
"Thats my target"
Whether its a unit, vehicle or single infantry model, declaring a target is a requirment before rolling to hit, scatter, etc.

This issue is cut and dry, just because some people dislike it doesnt make it a contentious rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:
Who? The firing player. When? I don't know.

But without the scattered unit being selected as a target hits/wounds can't be allocated to it

No, thats not correct at all.
You declare a target
Target jinks or doesnt
Scatter either hits or doesnt
If blast scatters resolve wounds or hull points for where it lands if it covers an enemy unit. If it scatters onto a secondary unit that unit cannot jink as the time for declaring targets has passed and so has the time to declare jink

die toten hosen wrote:


No, thats not correct at all.
You declare a target
Target jinks or doesnt
Scatter either hits or doesnt
If blast scatters resolve wounds or hull points for where it lands if it covers an enemy unit. If it scatters onto a secondary unit that unit cannot jink as the time for declaring targets has passed and so has the time to declare jink

I assume you can quote the part in the rule book that says the scattered unit is now a/the target unit?
That a blast weapon already mentioned to never roll to hit has somehow rolled to hit making it too late to declare jink?

Rolling to hit has nothing to do with jink.
Jink is declared after a target is declared.
Not when to hit rolls are made.

Blasts have to have a primary target, but can scatter and hit other units.

When i get off work i will cite all of this in the brb, which nobody on this forum seems to either own or read.

Jink, what units can jink, what units are eligeable to declare jink are all detailed in the brb.
I dont see any legit rebuttal in this thread, because there is not one.

The description for jink states its declared before to hit rolls and after targets are declared.

die toten hosen wrote:
I litteraly just did what you are asking, but ill do it again,

Declaring a target is litterally pointing at a unit and saying
"Thats my target"
Whether its a unit, vehicle or single infantry model, declaring a target is a requirment before rolling to hit, scatter, etc.

This issue is cut and dry, just because some people dislike it doesnt make it a contentious rule.

If you'd actually read the following posts you would see that the issue has been properly resolved with reference to the rules so there's zero need for you to come in and make so overbearing a reply.

Your post to which I replied was actually wrong because you hadn't noted the important part at issue, that Jink is only eligible in response to a unit being selected as a target. It has nothing to do with primary targets or whatever, which have nothing to do with the rules at all.

Next time make sure your initial point is correct and properly stated before coming back and trying to play the know it all - after it had already been explained and agreed, at that.

If blast scatters resolve wounds or hull points for where it lands if it covers an enemy unit. If it scatters onto a secondary unit that unit cannot jink as the time for declaring targets has passed and so has the time to declare jink

Wrong. As above it's actually because the secondary unit was not selected as a target. If there were a mechanism for allowing a second target to be actually selected for a blast weapon then they would be eligible to Jink, provided no To Hit rolls had yet been made (which would require a non-Blast or non-Template weapon to have been fired, because neither make To Hit rolls).

die toten hosen wrote:
Rolling to hit has nothing to do with jink.
Jink is declared after a target is declared.
Not when to hit rolls are made.

Then why did you finish this post with, "The description for jink states its declared before to hit rolls and after targets are declared."?

Blasts have to have a primary target, but can scatter and hit other units.

When i get off work i will cite all of this in the brb, which nobody on this forum seems to either own or read.

Jink, what units can jink, what units are eligeable to declare jink are all detailed in the brb.
I dont see any legit rebuttal in this thread, because there is not one.

The description for jink states its declared before to hit rolls and after targets are declared.

We've already discussed the relevant parts which you'd have already known if you'd read the rest of the thread, rather than firing off replies to people who'd quoted you. We've already established several points where you're talking nonsense as far as the rules are concerned though, so you may not need to bother

Nothing you just said refuted anything i said.

Just to clarify, im saying that a non primary target that is hit by a blast via a scatter cannot jink.

I stated to hit rolls because its part of the rules for jink. Its in the process.

There is one time and one time only when you can jink a shooting attack and that is when you are selected as a target which is prior to any rolls(scatter, to hit,) being made.

Its in the jink section of the rules. Pretty sure that others kept this thread going long past its conclusion due to ignorance of said jink rules.

die toten hosen wrote:
Nothing you just said refuted anything i said.

Just to clarify, im saying that a non primary target that is hit by a blast via a scatter cannot jink.

And you're wrong. There's no such thing as a primary target anywhere in the rules except for multiple combats in the Assault Phase.

There is one time and one time only when you can jink a shooting attack and that is when you are selected as a target which is prior to any rolls(scatter, to hit,) being made.

Correct, but you never said that. What you said was, "Jink is declared when a unit is targeted" which, while correct, is not actually the important part of the rule. Being selected as a target is the relevant part, which you have not actually said until now.

What you're missing is that a unit becomes a target unit (is targeted) when a blast scatters onto it, so from what you originally said I was questioning why they would not be allowed to Jink. When you actually note that being selected as a target is required, then obviously a blast scattering is not the unit actually being selected, which is the important distinction.

 Mr. Shine wrote:


What you're missing is that a unit becomes a target unit (is targeted) when a blast scatters onto it, so from what you originally said I was questioning why they would not be allowed to Jink. When you actually note that being selected as a target is required, then obviously a blast scattering is not the unit actually being selected, which is the important distinction.

No, it doesn't. At no point does the rule for blast say it changes the target unit. I freely admit it should. But then Jinkers should also be able to declare junking when the target declared changes.

Breton wrote:
No, it doesn't. At no point does the rule for blast say it changes the target unit. I freely admit it should. But then Jinkers should also be able to declare junking when the target declared changes.

"...each unit suffers one hit for each of their models which is fully or partially beneath the blast marker, even if those models are not within the firer's line of sight.

Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out, roll To Wound and save as normal. Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit..."

It's not explicit, but it's pretty sensibly implicit in the context of the Blast rules that the 'target unit' in question is the unit (one or more of) whose models were underneath the blast marker.

Unless you're suggesting we're given permission to resolve hits against one unit as resulting wounds against another unit, which I'd be open to if you'd like to follow the logic and steps of within the rules...

That is what he is suggesting; and RAW he has a point.

It still has no bearing on the original subject however, as whether or not the second unit becomes a target, it is still not "selected as a target"

 Mr. Shine wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
Nothing you just said refuted anything i said.

Just to clarify, im saying that a non primary target that is hit by a blast via a scatter cannot jink.

And you're wrong. There's no such thing as a primary target anywhere in the rules except for multiple combats in the Assault Phase.

There is one time and one time only when you can jink a shooting attack and that is when you are selected as a target which is prior to any rolls(scatter, to hit,) being made.

Correct, but you never said that. What you said was, "Jink is declared when a unit is targeted" which, while correct, is not actually the important part of the rule. Being selected as a target is the relevant part, which you have not actually said until now.

What you're missing is that a unit becomes a target unit (is targeted) when a blast scatters onto it, so from what you originally said I was questioning why they would not be allowed to Jink. When you actually note that being selected as a target is required, then obviously a blast scattering is not the unit actually being selected, which is the important distinction.

You are arguing semantics.
Only the declared target can jink.
We are arguing the same point you just dislike my wording

 jokerkd wrote:
That is what he is suggesting; and RAW he has a point.

Well that depends how much weight you give to both context and regular English when reading rules, but like I said I'd absolutely be open to being presented with where that leads in terms of rolling to wound and save as normal while allocating wounds resulting from hits against one unit to another unit. I'm not in a position to actually read and follow that up at the moment, unfortunately.

It still has no bearing on the original subject however, as whether or not the second unit becomes a target, it is still not "selected as a target"

Agreed.

 jokerkd wrote:
That is what he is suggesting; and RAW he has a point.

It still has no bearing on the original subject however, as whether or not the second unit becomes a target, it is still not "selected as a target"

Actually it does. As there's still no RAW way to get a non selected unit as the target of a blast weapon. Either being covered by the template selects them and allows them to jink, or they're never selected as a target and wounds can't be applied to them. Either through scatter or TFG template placement they're either targets or not.

A relevant point that has not been mentioned - if the secondary target has already chosen to Jink earlier (as a result of a different attack), it still benefits from that cover save even though it was not explicitly targeted.

Breton wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
That is what he is suggesting; and RAW he has a point.

It still has no bearing on the original subject however, as whether or not the second unit becomes a target, it is still not "selected as a target"

Actually it does. As there's still no RAW way to get a non selected unit as the target of a blast weapon. Either being covered by the template selects them and allows them to jink, or they're never selected as a target and wounds can't be applied to them. Either through scatter or TFG template placement they're either targets or not.

Becoming a target due to the rule is not the same as being selected as a target

And where does the blast rule say the new units are targets? The same RAW rules lawyering that says they can't jink because they weren't selected as a target says they aren't a target at all and hits/wounds can't be applied to them.

You a re still not acknowledging he difference between being a target and being "selected as a target"

I agree that the blast rule does not describe the second unit as a target, and that it stipulates wounds be allocated to the target unit. This is a problem, but not a problem related to jink at all

We can assume the second unit is a target without it having to consider it "selected". The unit is never selected. It is a random occurrence. There is no choice involved.

I also agreed that when placing the template over two units, a reasonable house rule would be to consider both selected targets. But that also doesn't change the fact that this would occur after the point where you are told to declare whether you are jinking.

And how can we assume that? Where is the rule?

What rule allows a unit to become a blast weapon target without being selected as one?

It would be a house rule, or RAI

So I was ignoring your house rule about some difference you created between being selected as a target and being a target that isn't mentioned anywhere in the rules?

If you're going to try and abuse a technicality to take away the jink save, the other player should just as freely abuse the technicality that they're not the target and can't be wounded anyway.

Now me, I'm more friendly than that. Whether I roll randomly to decide who he shoots at, play eeny meeny meinny moe, roll scatter, or pick them myself I'm picking the target, and any unit that becomes a target gets to react as such.

No. You were, and still are ignoring the difference between being a target, and being selected as a target. It is not something i have created. It is plain english. To select is to have a choice. To become requires no such choice. Indeed in this case it is random.



Rai is never 100% clear, but in this case you are safe in assuming that hits and wounds from one unit should not be allocated to another.

Well then where is the difference defined and what does and does not apply because of the difference in the rule book?

Does that mean if someone always randomizes their shooting phase no one gets a jink save ever?

According to this D20 roll I'm shooting at your white scars. D20 selected them, not me, no jinks

Breton wrote:
Well then where is the difference defined and what does and does not apply because of the difference in the rule book?

The difference is in the simple, common English definition of the words put together in a sentence.

Does that mean if someone always randomizes their shooting phase no one gets a jink save ever?

According to this D20 roll I'm shooting at your white scars. D20 selected them, not me, no jinks

I think you'll find the rules instruct you to choose a unit to shoot, and that you have to choose their target. Obviously Blasts scattering is a specific exception to this general rule.

If you had a special rule or effect which caused a unit to have to have their shooting target randomly determined though then sure, depending on the wording.

Common English says what rules apply to this non target target you're making up?

Blasts are an exception? Funny my brb starts blasts with chose a target.

Either a junking unit is selected as a target and can jink, or is never the target and can't be damaged. Common English as you say.

Also page 370. Randomly selecting is still selecting

Breton wrote:
Common English says what rules apply to this non target target you're making up?

Instead of putting up irrelevant strawman questions, why don't you actually just simply state your disagreement?

Blasts are an exception? Funny my brb starts blasts with chose a target.

I'm not sure which rulebook you're referring to, but the first line of Blasts (skipping the flavour text) states, "When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit. Instead, just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the 3" blast marker with its hole entirely over the base of the target model (see diagram), or its hull if the target is a vehicle."

Target models are not the same as target units, although it's safe to assume the target model you pick before rolling for scatter must be from the target unit per the shooting sequence.

Either a junking unit is selected as a target and can jink, or is never the target and can't be damaged. Common English as you say.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. If you're talking about a "jinking unit" then obviously they must have been selected as a target and declared Jink or they would not be a "jinking unit".

Also page 370. Randomly selecting is still selecting

Then you've disproven your own previous post. Good job.

Random selection isn't the same as scattering onto another unit, though.

EDIT:

Reading through the 'General Principles' for 'Blast Markers and Templates' I think I may have found a simple solution:

"Some weapons are so powerful that they don’t just target a single model or unit, but have an ‘area effect’ which might encompass (and often utterly devastate!) several different units."

This to me puts it to rest as far as positioning a blast marker over multiple units before rolling for scatter, as clearly the player is using the blast marker to select more than a single model or unit as the target, as described.

I don't think it's the same if the blast marker scatters on to another unit entirely however, as that unit was obviously not selected as a target.

page 370?

am i missing something?