Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

....Okay. This isn't a thread for a million unit-specific tactics; since you don't have an army list per se, then you can always reach for counters and counter-counters.
This is about the basic strategies of the game. Not trying to be That Guy gaming the system, but trying to look at actual strategy beyond "set up in a line, run at the enemy and punch them".

Victory Conditions

You need to win a major victory, win a minor victory, or else win a sudden death victory condition.

The first is essentially tabling the enemy. There is strategy involved in this, but it's specific to a given game, and there's limited general advice to be offered beyond "Kill EVERYTHING". Note that there's no turn limit - but if you run out of time, it'll go to percentages killed, so keep an eye on the clock. This isn't easy in a game with a practical time limit, any more than the old Meat Grinder mission was in 40k. Almost wiping out an army is easy. Actually wiping it out is a lot harder.

The second requires you to destroy a higher percentage of the enemy army than they do of yours. This is entirely based on models, and ignores models summoned, reinforced and so on during the game. Therefore, you want to be concentrating on the enemy's block units rather than characters - the same amount of damage poured into a Skavenslave unit will remove models a lot faster than it will aimed at a Hellpit Abomination, and will potentially 'double up' damage from Battleshock. The only exception is CHAOS, DEATH or SLANN wizards who are likely to summon models - only needing a 5-6 on 2D6 to start pumping out new units can make for overwhelming numbers very quickly if you don't have someone in position to unbind them.....

The third is a gamble because you need to stop deploying once your opponent has reached 1/3 again your numbers and hope he doesn't just keep packing things in. At the same time, you should have a fairly good idea of whether you're more likely to be trying to achieve a sudden death condition (with a small, elite army), or trying to stop one (with a horde). If you're trying to achieve it, you've got the choice of what sudden death condition you're after, so you can bear this in mind in what you put in your force; an ironbreaker shield wall is a natural pairing with Endure, for example, whilst a lance of Grail Knights probably wants Sieze Ground or Blunt. Assassinate can be a bit of a trap, because it's fairly easy to hide a character where you can't get at it.

Setup

So....one player divides the board in two, the other picks a half. "Two equal-sized halves" implies the territories have to be contiguous, but you can still do some wierd and wacky shapes - say, having one player's territory run round the board edge whilst the other has the centre. You need to have a bit of intelligence, here, because you must set up 12" inside your territory - so it needs to be >12" at at least some point. Also, your opponent gets to choose his territory, so if you divide the board up in such a way as to give one territory a massive advantage.....expect to be stuck on the other side of the board. At the same time, different armies will react better to different board shapes - having the edge of numbers is a balancing act between a front line narrow enough that you can block it almost completely (so no-one can flank your front line and get at cannons, battle standard bearers and assassinate targets) and being so narrow that you can't bring numbers to bear against a less numerous opponent.

Any other general thoughts from people?

Combat order is something worth thinking about, and in general you're better off not hitting back at the enemy that just hit you.

If your units, A and B, are engaged with enemy units 1 and 2 respectively, and its their turn:

1 hits A, A takes a few casualties. A is now basically 'safe' though, so when you get to attack you're better off using B to hit 2. That way, you can potentially do some damage before 2 swings, reducing its ability to hurt B.

Indeed. Also, skirmish screens.

In 40k, you have a 1" exclusion zone around your models that the enemy can't enter unless charging.

In Age of Sigmar, it's 3". Now actually producing a skirmish line is a lot harder, because your models have to be within 1" of each other, not 2" base-to-base, so it'll take more models, but it means that it's a lot harder for a model to pass through a 'gap' between units without fighting one or both of them - even a 6" wide gap cannot be passed through without a fight.

Equally, a 'second rank' of units within 2" or so of the unit in front (assuming the front rank is only 1 model deep) should be able to smartly step forward and get in on the action the same turn the screen gets charged. You may struggle to get into range to attack - spear and halberd units will help here; a single line of skavenslaves with a stormvermin unit 1 1/2" back from them should be very nasty (although you'll probably want to use Inspiring Presence or a battle standard to stop the slaves running or they'll pull down stormvermin as they do.

 Paradigm wrote:
Combat order is something worth thinking about, and in general you're better off not hitting back at the enemy that just hit you.

If your units, A and B, are engaged with enemy units 1 and 2 respectively, and its their turn:

1 hits A, A takes a few casualties. A is now basically 'safe' though, so when you get to attack you're better off using B to hit 2. That way, you can potentially do some damage before 2 swings, reducing its ability to hurt B.

Excellent point. When you get later in the game when there are more combats going on, it'll become far more important to be selective in your ordering of who is going to swing when. It'll come down to decisions about the relative durability of different units against their offensive capabilities and how many wounds a given unit can take before being destroyed, etc.

locarno24 wrote:
The second requires you to destroy a higher percentage of the enemy army than they do of yours. This is entirely based on models, and ignores models summoned, reinforced and so on during the game.

Is this really true? From the rules... "Models added to your army during the game (for example, through summoning, reinforcements, reincarnation and so on) do not count towards the number of models in the army, but must be counted among the casualties an army suffers."

So summoned models removed from play count as casualties. And the minor victory math involves "comparing the number of models removed from play with the number of models originally set up for the battle".

Based on what I've seen, Calvary units are meant to harass units rather then stay in one specific combat. This is especially true of units, like the Dark Elves Cold One Knights, that get bonuses when charging a unit. The fact there is no detriment to retreating, other then forgoing any attacks that turn, makes retreating, and charging again on the next turn more of a bonus then a loss.

majorhavok wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
The second requires you to destroy a higher percentage of the enemy army than they do of yours. This is entirely based on models, and ignores models summoned, reinforced and so on during the game.

Is this really true? From the rules... "Models added to your army during the game (for example, through summoning, reinforcements, reincarnation and so on) do not count towards the number of models in the army, but must be counted among the casualties an army suffers."

So summoned models removed from play count as casualties. And the minor victory math involves "comparing the number of models removed from play with the number of models originally set up for the battle".

You have it correct Majorhavoc,the added models from summoning do add to the casualtie count,this is why summoning is a double edged sword,those models better do their damage because if your opponent is able to start taking them out in big numbers then your summoned army will quickly start to work against you.

Based on what I've seen, Calvary units are meant to harass units rather then stay in one specific combat. This is especially true of units, like the Dark Elves Cold One Knights, that get bonuses when charging a unit. The fact there is no detriment to retreating, other then forgoing any attacks that turn, makes retreating, and charging again on the next turn more of a bonus then a loss.

Thats a risky dice game though no? Lets say a cavalry unit of M8 retraet from a dwarf unit of M4. The cavalry unit retreat 8 and decide to run just be sure getting a lucky 6.
They are now 14" away.
However your opponent now gets to chase you, moving his dwarfs 4 and then 2d6 for his charge.
Due to the 3" combat rule, he only needs to roll 7+ to recatch you.
Agreed its not 100% but the law of averages say its a risky game to play.

Hmmm.... forget I said that, then. In fact, a summoning heavy army can theoretically take more than 100% casualties if appropriately pummeled.

Once again, flatten the less well armoured infantry units for best results.

Based on what I've seen, Calvary units are meant to harass units rather then stay in one specific combat. This is especially true of units, like the Dark Elves Cold One Knights, that get bonuses when charging a unit. The fact there is no detriment to retreating, other then forgoing any attacks that turn, makes retreating, and charging again on the next turn more of a bonus then a loss.

Definitely. You should be happy to retreat and charge again - 40k 'hit and run' fashion - whenever you're not happy with the odds. Whilst you can't charge in again (unless you're skaven), there's no 'being run down' penalty, and some units rack up massive bonuses on the charge. Having some solid blocks to hold an opponent in place whilst you do this is a good idea.

Bretonnians also get big bonuses on the charge (I think their shields only work when charging).

As a whole, though, knights can fight a sustained combat - the whole 'break 'em or your dead' of warhammer has gone away a bit; it's more the fact that a knight is only really two infantrymen on one base, rather than the 2+ save monsters that could only be beaten by rank bonuses rather than actually killed.

 Ratius wrote:

Based on what I've seen, Calvary units are meant to harass units rather then stay in one specific combat. This is especially true of units, like the Dark Elves Cold One Knights, that get bonuses when charging a unit. The fact there is no detriment to retreating, other then forgoing any attacks that turn, makes retreating, and charging again on the next turn more of a bonus then a loss.

Thats a risky dice game though no? Lets say a cavalry unit of M8 retraet from a dwarf unit of M4. The cavalry unit retreat 8 and decide to run just be sure getting a lucky 6.
They are now 14" away.
However your opponent now gets to chase you, moving his dwarfs 4 and then 2d6 for his charge.
Due to the 3" combat rule, he only needs to roll 7+ to recatch you.
Agreed its not 100% but the law of averages say its a risky game to play.

The idea would be to retreat with the cav, and then move a unit of infantry into the path to block the charge. Something like crossbowmen who have a special stand and fire type of rule.

Saldiven wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
Combat order is something worth thinking about, and in general you're better off not hitting back at the enemy that just hit you.

If your units, A and B, are engaged with enemy units 1 and 2 respectively, and its their turn:

1 hits A, A takes a few casualties. A is now basically 'safe' though, so when you get to attack you're better off using B to hit 2. That way, you can potentially do some damage before 2 swings, reducing its ability to hurt B.

Excellent point. When you get later in the game when there are more combats going on, it'll become far more important to be selective in your ordering of who is going to swing when. It'll come down to decisions about the relative durability of different units against their offensive capabilities and how many wounds a given unit can take before being destroyed, etc.

This game plays almost exactly like Chronopia used to. The only real difference is that Chronopia also alternated all other unit activation besides just combat. I quite like this system because the army that moved first isn't at an advantage.

The idea would be to retreat with the cav, and then move a unit of infantry into the path to block the charge. Something like crossbowmen who have a special stand and fire type of rule.

Good idea

aren't summoned units included in models lost, but not in models fielded? I thought that's what I read.

That way, summoning can lead to a greater than 100% casualty situation.

Make sure your summoning right the summon spells all have a max model limit in them. Eg summon a unit of upto 10 bletters. This caught me by suprise after reading the spell closely.

As a general tactic try concentrating on the general as taking him out reduces the buffs in the army. If this isnt possible on first turn concentrate on fast movers these can tye down units or block movement a lot with the 3" no go zone.

 odinsgrandson wrote:
aren't summoned units included in models lost, but not in models fielded? I thought that's what I read.

That way, summoning can lead to a greater than 100% casualty situation.

That was my reading too. Summoned models whether they are on the table or not are ALL counted as casualties when going for a minor victory. It means that if you summon a lot of additional forces you'd better be prepared to table the enemy.

Actually that's a tactic for small, elite forces of Chaos, Undeath etc... start the game with 30% less than your opponent gaining a sudden death victory goal and summon additional forces to help you achieve it.

 Weyrell wrote:

 odinsgrandson wrote:
aren't summoned units included in models lost, but not in models fielded? I thought that's what I read.

That way, summoning can lead to a greater than 100% casualty situation.

That was my reading too. Summoned models whether they are on the table or not are ALL counted as casualties when going for a minor victory. It means that if you summon a lot of additional forces you'd better be prepared to table the enemy.

Actually that's a tactic for small, elite forces of Chaos, Undeath etc... start the game with 30% less than your opponent gaining a sudden death victory goal and summon additional forces to help you achieve it.

Yes,that is correct.I had not used my undead yet as ive been playing my OnGs(and having a blast) but yes I didn't have the summoning correct either.

Test as follows:

" Models added to your army during the
game (for example, through summoning,
reinforcements, reincarnation and so on) do
not count towards the number of models in
the army, but must be counted among the
casualties an army suffers.


So go ahead and summon 30 or so models turn one,,,you just suffered 30 casualties,those things better get to killin!.

The only trouble is, there isn't a turn limit for the game, where a minor victory should kick in, so it is hard to tell how much of a disadvantage suffering casualties from summoning should be.

It really just kicks in when someone has something else to do with his time.

I bet they meant for only the dead summoned models to be counted towards minor victories, but I think the way they wrote it, they're counted right away.

 Ratius wrote:

Based on what I've seen, Calvary units are meant to harass units rather then stay in one specific combat. This is especially true of units, like the Dark Elves Cold One Knights, that get bonuses when charging a unit. The fact there is no detriment to retreating, other then forgoing any attacks that turn, makes retreating, and charging again on the next turn more of a bonus then a loss.

Thats a risky dice game though no? Lets say a cavalry unit of M8 retraet from a dwarf unit of M4. The cavalry unit retreat 8 and decide to run just be sure getting a lucky 6.
They are now 14" away.
However your opponent now gets to chase you, moving his dwarfs 4 and then 2d6 for his charge.
Due to the 3" combat rule, he only needs to roll 7+ to recatch you.
Agreed its not 100% but the law of averages say its a risky game to play.

Not quite, the only way to initiate a combat on your turn is to charge, and a successful charge needs to get at least 1 model within 1/2" or the charge is failed. So in your example, the dwarfs would need to roll at 10 to get back in combat.

You can split attacks if you have multiple profiles. So the Soul Grinder can vomit at a hero and shoot another unit.

In shooting, start with your model/unit with the smallest unit. Priority is any unit gaining a bonus through size. So if there's a unit of 20, nip away at it. Once they lose a single model their attack output is halved. A hero can be useful for this if s/he has a ranged attack.

Use mortal wounds on heroes. Spells that cause mortal wounds are especially useful for this.

Not quite, the only way to initiate a combat on your turn is to charge, and a successful charge needs to get at least 1 model within 1/2" or the charge is failed. So in your example, the dwarfs would need to roll at 10 to get back in combat.

Hmm but do these conradict then?

The nearest model you move must finish
within ½" of an enemy model. If that’s
impossible, the charge has failed and no
models in the charging unit can move
in this phase.

Any unit that has charged or has models
within 3" of an enemy unit can attack with
its melee weapons in the combat phase.

What if you simply move a unit to within say 1.5" of an enemy unit. You cannot attack with melee weapons, is that correct?

 Ratius wrote:

What if you simply move a unit to within say 1.5" of an enemy unit. You cannot attack with melee weapons, is that correct?

You can't. Rules, page 3, second column, first paragraph:

When you move a model in the movement phase, you may not move within 3" of any enemy models.

Bah, good catch, silly me.

So, I guess you can "retreat" PAST an enemy unit, as long as there's space between their models and you can move outside of 3" of any of them.

Make sure that your battle line is a) solid and b)have the "noncombat ranks" spread out in the back to maximize the distance an enemy would have to move to get through. Otherwise they charge in, "retreat" past, and assuming that you can't charge them again (terrain, distance, they're tarpitting you, etc) and hit your backfield.

Seems like this is especially powerful with cavalry for their move speed (or fliers, who would get to ignore your models!)

Rihgu wrote:
So, I guess you can "retreat" PAST an enemy unit, as long as there's space between their models and you can move outside of 3" of any of them.

Make sure that your battle line is a) solid and b)have the "noncombat ranks" spread out in the back to maximize the distance an enemy would have to move to get through. Otherwise they charge in, "retreat" past, and assuming that you can't charge them again (terrain, distance, they're tarpitting you, etc) and hit your backfield.

Seems like this is especially powerful with cavalry for their move speed (or fliers, who would get to ignore your models!)

Yes absolutly, "retreat" past the enemy unit and then charge in a foot unit so that they can't charge after the cavalry in their turn.

The main tactics I've been focusing on so far is;
- Trying to lead the opponent around the board, force key units to separate from the main battle formation.
- And focusing key targets (e.g. if they have a summoner try and focus it down and get your wizards close enough to try and unbind their spells as soon as possible)

Oddball tactics.
Stand and fire blobs.
Thin line of empire handgunners, backed up by crossbowmen, backed up by razordons.
If anything charges, all three units get a free turn of shooting at the unit coming in.

-Matt

If your playing an army with high bravery (lizardmen, Deamons, ect) take MSU instead of large groups just in case one of your units gets singled out and takes massive model loss. Just because you have really high bravery doesn't always mean your immune to Battleshock, unless you have a rule that says you're immune (lizardmen formation) You might give up first turn but you also get a bit more mobility and deployment flexibility as well.

I have no experience with WHFB (I'm a 40k player) but I'm interested in AoS and high elves and been wondering what would be wrong with taking a few dragons (fast and can throw out mortal wounds) being almost certainly outnumbered and then selecting assainate or kill a unit and just flying over and mortal wounding them to death then charging if you need to?

Please correct my ignorance, I really like the idea of a dragon army though!

 Zippokovich wrote:
I have no experience with WHFB (I'm a 40k player) but I'm interested in AoS and high elves and been wondering what would be wrong with taking a few dragons (fast and can throw out mortal wounds) being almost certainly outnumbered and then selecting assainate or kill a unit and just flying over and mortal wounding them to death then charging if you need to?

Please correct my ignorance, I really like the idea of a dragon army though!

They even have a war scroll formation with dragons!

Of course I'm sure some opponents will still complain.

Absolutely nothing! It's a very sound idea for an army.

The weakness of the force is this:

a) Dragons are awesome but not actually that hard to kill. Assuming you've taken Princes on Dragons (for the Dragon Shield), you've got 14 wounds with a 4+ rerollable armour save per model. That's good but a long way from invincible (probably about equivalent to a 20 man medium infantry unit, but even a basic unit can mob you and do a fair amount of damage. Also note that as you get wounded you get slower and worse in combat....

b) Whilst a dragon does serious punishment in combat, dragonfire shooting is merely okay. A combined dragonfire shot from all three only averages about 8 mortal wounds - lethal to a character but merely okay against a unit; yes, it'll probably wipe out a 10-man infantry unit but you've used an entire battalion to do it.

c) Assassinate or Blunt are obvious choices because, as noted, you've got massive power to a point. The problem is that you've only got a 12" range, and it's very easy for someone with a large infantry-heavy battalion (say a skaven clawpack or bretonnian peasant militia) to block you from getting at a unit, because you still can't finish a move within 3" of a model, so even a basic peasant has a 6" diameter exclusion zone that you can't easily bypass without fighting through it. Yes, you can try and nibble at the outer layers of the enemy formation but you'll generally come off worse if you do - you'll zip in and scorch a 10-man clanrat/peasant/swordsman unit, and return fire from ratling guns or archers will put a couple of wounds back on you.

d) Finally, remember that I choose your targets for assassinate or blunt, and there are plenty of warscrolls which will be a bugger to target. Using a skaven or dark elf assassin, for example - he's in one of my units, but you don't know which one, and you only have 3 units to go looking for him with.....

e) Don't, by any means, let this put you off the idea. Dragon Hosts are gorgeous and visually impressive and I'd love to see them get plenty of use. Remember, you could always take Endure instead; with three dragons in close proximity, you should be able to keep one alive for long enough to win.

Dragon army would be sick, maybe some cavalry to screen for the dragon would help alleviate problems