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Ok, so I see this a lot, and it really makes no sense to me why sellers do this.

Why would you sell something for $300-$400+ Paypal fees & shipping?!
The fee is like 2.9% of the sell...and you adding that to the final sell and making the buyer pay more is just silly and another way to earn extra cash. At the sametime, all you are doing Is increasing the % of how much Paypal takes, so that kinda beats the purpose of having the buyer pay for your fee's. Does anyone else see how ridiculous this is? would you agree to paying the fee's? or would you pass on the deal?

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Ok, so I see this a lot, and it really makes no sense to me why sellers do this.

Why would you sell something for $300-$400+ Paypal fees & shipping?!
The fee is like 2.9% of the sell...and you adding that to the final sell and making the buyer pay more is just silly and another way to earn extra cash. At the sametime, all you are doing Is increasing the % of how much Paypal takes, so that kinda beats the purpose of having the buyer pay for your fee's. Does anyone else see how ridiculous this is? would you agree to paying the fee's? or would you pass on the deal?

Well, the purpose is to preserve the seller's margin, meaning the difference between what he paid for the goods and what he's selling them for. For industries with thin margins, like online retail, 3% of the purchase price could eat up a lot of the margin.

Now, paypal's fees are no different from credit card fees, and I feel that if a retailer offers me ways to pay for things, than adding a fee for paypal is only a problem if I really like the convenience of paypal.

As always though, additional fees make me mad, because if required, they should just be part of the price. If the overall price is still good though, I'd pay whatever they want.

What difference does it make if they say £100 plus paypal fees plus shipping, instead of £104 plus shipping? Of the want to charge you for fees they will

They should do what nearly all merchants that accept credit cards do: just hide the fees within the price of the goods.

If they hide it, then it wouldn't be such a big deal(since you obviously cant tell). but making it 104 from 100 kinda gives it away, since most sellers/ buyers like nice round numbers to keep things simple. But it really should not be the buyers job to pay for your fees. 2.9% isn't going to send you to bankruptcy....

 Polonius wrote:


As always though, additional fees make me mad, because if required, they should just be part of the price. If the overall price is still good though, I'd pay whatever they want.

Sums up my thoughts exactly.

DaKKaLAnce is your issue with retailers doing this or with private sellers?

I find it easier to expect a business to eat the costs associated with transaction fees than I do a private seller. Because let's be honest here, the buyer is using Paypal because it is convenient and safe too, it isn't just the seller benefiting from those perks.

For online purchases I recall the dark days prior to Paypal where one had to either send a check or, if you wanted a bit more security, a money order. A money order would cost you some money to purchase, plus you had to buy a stamp and wait for the payment to arrive. When Paypal came on the scene it was wonderful to instantly and securely send payment. But why should the buyer only benefit from Paypal's advantages while expecting the seller to foot the cost? Again, I am talking about private sales and not a retailer.

In general, I include them in all my prices already so don't need to discuss them. I usually only discuss fees if someone is asking for a deal on top of my already low prices.

Example:
- I have a bunch of stuff with prices listed.
- Other guy picks out a bunch of stuff listed at 122.
- He offers to buy it at 122 plus shipping
- We never discuss fees.

Example 2:
- I have a bunch of stuff with prices listed.
- Other guy picks out a bunch of stuff listed at 122.
- He offers to buy it at 100 shipped.
- I counter with 100 shipped plus fees or 100 shipped paid by gift.

Basically, I use fees as a negotiation tactic if you're trying to negotiate me down.

Heavy users gain access to discounted rates when using PayPal.

I would think sellers adding their fees are individuals and not retailers, volume sellers. which is what you need to be to survive on eBay at the moment.

 Mr. Burning wrote:
Heavy users gain access to discounted rates when using PayPal.

I would think sellers adding their fees are individuals and not retailers, volume sellers. which is what you need to be to survive on eBay at the moment.

Not sure we are talking about eBay. Especially since you can't really renegotiate the price after an auction closes to include fees.

Im talking about Private sellers. I know Ebay and Paypal are "Double Dipping in Fee's" But I heard that will change soon because of complaints. If the price is just really good, then yes, I can understand the fees. But when the price is around 70-90% retail and you are asking for fees? Really? Are you so afraid of the fee's you need to "cover" them?

Typically has to with preying off those who don't consider fees and shipping as part of the total price and manipulating the search engine filters or page sorting.

While I worked with a non-profit group we did charge for paypal and square charges. We added just enough that we received full price for whatever we were selling. We considered it a convenience fee for paying with credit. We most certainly took cash or a check. In that we had no guilt about charging the extra because it was not the only way to pay.

Its kind of a dick move to charge that if you don't accept any other form of payment

 namiel wrote:
.
Its kind of a dick move to charge that if you don't accept any other form of payment

This right here. You see a lot of this. But sadly paypal is the only company I know that does what it does. Not many others have names for themselves or just don't exist.

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
But when the price is around 70-90% retail and you are asking for fees? Really? Are you so afraid of the fee's you need to "cover" them?

Are you so afraid of the fees that you can't cover them? I am being playful here, but you seem to be under the impression that you are entitled to the same services from a private individual as you receive from a retailer. Why?

"Because I can buy item X for 30% off from website Y with free shipping, and they throw in a free gift!"

Then buy from that website. Private sellers are usually trying to make money back off of items that they can't/won't use, or because they are in a financial crunch. You shouldn't expect private sellers to offer the same sort of discounts as a retailer.

If I am selling some spare models to help cover an unexpected expense I am likely already selling things at a "loss" in terms of what I paid for them, or what it would cost to get them back when money is less tight, so to get indignant that a seller might ask for transaction fees to be covered seems like a lot of entitlement on your part.

Again, you are receiving the same service from Paypal as the seller (instant payment, security, peace of mind) but you expect only the seller to foot the bill for those services.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
But when the price is around 70-90% retail and you are asking for fees? Really? Are you so afraid of the fee's you need to "cover" them?

Are you so afraid of the fees that you can't cover them? I am being playful here, but you seem to be under the impression that you are entitled to the same services from a private individual as you receive from a retailer. Why?

"Because I can buy item X for 30% off from website Y with free shipping, and they throw in a free gift!"

Then buy from that website. Private sellers are usually trying to make money back off of items that they can't/won't use, or because they are in a financial crunch. You shouldn't expect private sellers to offer the same sort of discounts as a retailer.

If I am selling some spare models to help cover an unexpected expense I am likely already selling things at a "loss" in terms of what I paid for them, or what it would cost to get them back when money is less tight, so to get indignant that a seller might ask for transaction fees to be covered seems like a lot of entitlement on your part.

Again, you are receiving the same service from Paypal as the seller (instant payment, security, peace of mind) but you expect only the seller to foot the bill for those services.

Well considering paypal doesn't charge the buyer, yes that is how it is. The seller is paying for all of the "features" paypal offers a business or personal account.

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
But when the price is around 70-90% retail and you are asking for fees? Really? Are you so afraid of the fee's you need to "cover" them?

Are you so afraid of the fees that you can't cover them? I am being playful here, but you seem to be under the impression that you are entitled to the same services from a private individual as you receive from a retailer. Why?

"Because I can buy item X for 30% off from website Y with free shipping, and they throw in a free gift!"

Then buy from that website. Private sellers are usually trying to make money back off of items that they can't/won't use, or because they are in a financial crunch. You shouldn't expect private sellers to offer the same sort of discounts as a retailer.

If I am selling some spare models to help cover an unexpected expense I am likely already selling things at a "loss" in terms of what I paid for them, or what it would cost to get them back when money is less tight, so to get indignant that a seller might ask for transaction fees to be covered seems like a lot of entitlement on your part.

Again, you are receiving the same service from Paypal as the seller (instant payment, security, peace of mind) but you expect only the seller to foot the bill for those services.

Well considering paypal doesn't charge the buyer, yes that is how it is. The seller is paying for all of the "features" paypal offers a business or personal account.

If the buyer sends payment as a gift, Paypal will charge the buyer. So, that isn't always correct. And you clearly aren't interested in discussing this so much as ranting to the internet, so I am ducking out of this conversation.

Good luck with your purchases!

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

If the buyer sends payment as a gift, Paypal will charge the buyer. So, that isn't always correct.

Gift was replaced by friends and family. No one pays fees when you send friends and family if you use Paypal balance.

This is a discussion, im just placing the facts. Most people here will not do the gift option as it cannot get protection, so you can mark that out.

This is a very dishonest business tactic that I believe is a little unnecessary. The Fees are for using Paypal's features as a seller and making things simple. A buyer hardly has to do anything and could easily make a transaction else where that is just as secure. The fee's just shouldn't become the Buyers problem, he is already doing enough by making a purchase from you, why penalize him/her?

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
And you clearly aren't interested in discussing this so much as ranting to the internet, so I am ducking out of this conversation.

Good luck with your purchases!

Yeah, after reading through the thread that is my take on it as well. The fees are the responsibility of whoever agreed to pay them during the negotiation. If it wasn't discussed, that is automatically the seller because that is how paypal works. If it is discussed and you agree to it as a buyer, suck it up and stop complaining. The OP is complaining about the 3% not "bankrupting" private sellers yet it is important enough for him to make a complaint thread about it on dakka. I'm sorry but either that 3% is important or it is not... you can't have it both ways. If it is important to BOTH parties, it should be discussed before the deal is finalized. And, to hedge off the straw man argument before it starts, when I sell things I do NOT charge buyers the extra fees but rather incorporate it into the price that I'm selling things at.

It depends on the private transaction. Like Warboss said, negotiate it.

On E-Bay, it's always the responsibility of the seller.

Incidentally, it's not fair to expect that they include the price of shipping on the listed price. If the seller is in California and the buyer is in Norway, the shipping is going to be different than if the buyer is in New Mexico. Some people want insurance (expensive!) other people are happy with post.

If you want, just ask for 5% less on the price during your haggle, and then you're ahead

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I am being playful here, but you seem to be under the impression that you are entitled to the same services from a private individual as you receive from a retailer. Why?

Because I'm entitled to everything as the buyer. I'm entitled to have your product at 5% of retail price with free shipping, and you will say "thank you Peregrine for being a valued customer". I don't care about you as a person, and I certainly don't care about whatever sad story is the reason why you're selling your models. All I care about is your price relative to other sellers. If your final price (including shipping and fees) is the best deal then I'll buy from you. Otherwise I'll just buy from someone else.

Also, since paypal fees are a fixed percentage that you know about, there's really no reason to have them separate from the final price of the item. Adding a "plus paypal fees" note suggests that either you're being deceptive in your pricing by advertising a lower attention-getting price and then bumping it back up to the real price with fees, or you're a newbie seller who doesn't understand how selling online works and will probably have other problems.

 namiel wrote:
While I worked with a non-profit group we did charge for paypal and square charges. We added just enough that we received full price for whatever we were selling. We considered it a convenience fee for paying with credit. We most certainly took cash or a check. In that we had no guilt about charging the extra because it was not the only way to pay.

Its kind of a dick move to charge that if you don't accept any other form of payment

Unfortunately that's a mistake many retailers make. Debit cards are the cheapest way to handle payment. Other than that they all work out about the same. Lots of companies fail to take in to account that cash and cheques are time consuming to process. Credit cards are much easier to process that cheques and cash, even though they charge a fee. I only charge a fee when sales are over £2k, at which point people should be making a bank payment.

 Peregrine wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I am being playful here, but you seem to be under the impression that you are entitled to the same services from a private individual as you receive from a retailer. Why?

Because I'm entitled to everything as the buyer. I'm entitled to have your product at 5% of retail price with free shipping, and you will say "thank you Peregrine for being a valued customer". I don't care about you as a person, and I certainly don't care about whatever sad story is the reason why you're selling your models. All I care about is your price relative to other sellers. If your final price (including shipping and fees) is the best deal then I'll buy from you. Otherwise I'll just buy from someone else.

At first I thought you were using irony here, but it seems you are serious.

You do not have the right to trample over a seller because you are a buyer. Again, we are talking about private transactions, likely through forums like this one. You can certainly demand a 95% discount, free shipping and a HJ from the guy's significant other, but you aren't entitled to those perks. Honeslty, did you leave an orkmoticon off after this paragraph because I honestly cannot fathom this viewpoint.

 Peregrine wrote:
Also, since paypal fees are a fixed percentage that you know about, there's really no reason to have them separate from the final price of the item. Adding a "plus paypal fees" note suggests that either you're being deceptive in your pricing by advertising a lower attention-getting price and then bumping it back up to the real price with fees, or you're a newbie seller who doesn't understand how selling online works and will probably have other problems.

So if someone asks for the buyer to pay the transaction fees before payment they are either being deceptive or are a total n00b who doesn't know what they are doing? Both of those conclusions leave me scratching my head. It isn't deception if the seller is upfront about the inclusion of fees.

If you see a trading post with: "10x Space Marines NOS for $25 + $5 shipping and Paypal fees" that is the seller being as transparent as possible. You are certainly entitled (here is your entitlement, sir) to pass on the ad and move on to another one, but how on earth is the seller being deceptive?

It seems like you are talking about retailer hiding fees in the fine print of their advertisements to dupe people. That isn't what this discussion is about.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
You do not have the right to trample over a seller because you are a buyer.

Sure I do. As the buyer I'm going to take advantage of you in every way possible, and I'm going to to the same as the seller. Selling models is a business transaction, not a happy cooperative friendship thing, and each party has the right to seek the best possible deal for themselves without any consideration at all for what is "fair". If you let yourself get trampled then you have only yourself to blame.

Again, we are talking about private transactions, likely through forums like this one.

So? Where the transaction takes place is irrelevant, except for determining exactly which fees have to be paid. The only difference between a forum sale and ebay is that as a buyer I can demand lower prices since you don't have to give ebay a share, and as a seller I can sell my stuff at the same prices I'd sell it for on ebay but make more profit.

You can certainly demand a 95% discount, free shipping and a HJ from the guy's significant other, but you aren't entitled to those perks.

Sure I am. I'm entitled to whatever I can get from you. If you're desperate enough to sell your models at a 95% discount then I'm not going to feel bad about taking it. In fact, I'll try to negotiate you down to a 99% discount if I think I can get it. And if I don't like your offer I'll go buy from someone who will give me a better one.

If you see a trading post with: "10x Space Marines NOS for $25 + $5 shipping and Paypal fees" that is the seller being as transparent as possible. You are certainly entitled (here is your entitlement, sir) to pass on the ad and move on to another one, but how on earth is the seller being deceptive?

It's deceptive because the accurate way to present the sale is "10x space marines NOS for $35". As a buyer I don't care about what percentage of the final price goes to shipping, paypal fees, splitting the price with the guy who asked you to sell his models, etc. All I care about is the final amount charged to my credit card. But you're trying to catch my attention with the $25 partial cost in the title, probably because you know that the actual $35 price of your models will be much less appealing.

Now, you obviously have the right to do this as seller if you think it will get you a better deal, but as a buyer I'm probably going to wonder if you're hiding anything else.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I am being playful here, but you seem to be under the impression that you are entitled to the same services from a private individual as you receive from a retailer. Why?

Because I'm entitled to everything as the buyer. I'm entitled to have your product at 5% of retail price with free shipping, and you will say "thank you Peregrine for being a valued customer". I don't care about you as a person, and I certainly don't care about whatever sad story is the reason why you're selling your models. All I care about is your price relative to other sellers. If your final price (including shipping and fees) is the best deal then I'll buy from you. Otherwise I'll just buy from someone else.

At first I thought you were using irony here, but it seems you are serious.

You do not have the right to trample over a seller because you are a buyer. Again, we are talking about private transactions, likely through forums like this one. You can certainly demand a 95% discount, free shipping and a HJ from the guy's significant other, but you aren't entitled to those perks. Honeslty, did you leave an orkmoticon off after this paragraph because I honestly cannot fathom this viewpoint.

LOL. Me too. When I first read it, I thought it was ironic sarcasm. But anyways. There are plenty of reasons to buy from someone even though they don't have the lowest price.

Until there is a meeting of the minds on price, product, and parties, nobody is entitled to anything at all. Afterwards, the only thing anyone is entitled to is to not be ripped off. That is, you're entitled to receive substantially what you paid for, or payment as the seller.

Peregrine hinted at one factor for me: sellers that request additional cash for fees are showing a big sign of being new to online sales, or very unexpert.

I might get a good price, but there's also a chance they screw it up.

 Peregrine wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
You do not have the right to trample over a seller because you are a buyer.

Sure I do. As the buyer I'm going to take advantage of you in every way possible, and I'm going to to the same as the seller. Selling models is a business transaction, not a happy cooperative friendship thing, and each party has the right to seek the best possible deal for themselves without any consideration at all for what is "fair". If you let yourself get trampled then you have only yourself to blame.

And generally speaking, a seller can simply sell their goods to another customer -- if, for example, they don't like the buyer or the buyer is just too annoying to deal with.

 Peregrine wrote:

If you see a trading post with: "10x Space Marines NOS for $25 + $5 shipping and Paypal fees" that is the seller being as transparent as possible. You are certainly entitled (here is your entitlement, sir) to pass on the ad and move on to another one, but how on earth is the seller being deceptive?

It's deceptive because the accurate way to present the sale is "10x space marines NOS for $35". As a buyer I don't care about what percentage of the final price goes to shipping, paypal fees, splitting the price with the guy who asked you to sell his models, etc. All I care about is the final amount charged to my credit card. But you're trying to catch my attention with the $25 partial cost in the title, probably because you know that the actual $35 price of your models will be much less appealing.

Now, you obviously have the right to do this as seller if you think it will get you a better deal, but as a buyer I'm probably going to wonder if you're hiding anything else.

You don't care how much goes to the shipping and paypal but the seller sure does. How is he/she supposed to just give you a flat rate every time when they don't know where you live? US shipping is regional so it does change even within the lower 48 and that's not including the other two states or multiple US territories, let alone international shipping. It's not deceptive but rather entirely accurate and itemized. If you're already offering a good deal on something, that extra few % discount could turn it to a loss instead of a profit for professional sellers or an unacceptable sale price for hobby sellers. I'm sorry if that wastes a few seconds of your eyeball time.

 Polonius wrote:
Peregrine hinted at one factor for me: sellers that request additional cash for fees are showing a big sign of being new to online sales, or very unexpert.

I might get a good price, but there's also a chance they screw it up.

Well, at the end of the day, the total price is the total price, right? You have a chance to back out until the instant you send the funds, and if you don't like the deal at any point, just walk. If you don't like the seller because you feel that they're trying to make you pay hidden fees, buh-buy!