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Hey Dakka,

I'm generally OK with most changes 7th has brought, but I have serious trouble having any fun with Superheavies like the IK or WK on the board.

To me, the fun part of 40k has always been watching things fight at lower and lower strength until they are destroyed. The truly epic moments are watching a lone survivor destroy an enemy tank, or watching a vehicle get its weapon blown off and ram the enemy in desperation with it's final hull point. Big things are fine as long as they can be killed by degrees, and the trouble is you really can't impede a Superheavy.

They continue to kick the crap out of everything until totally gone, which means either you demolish them in a single turn, or they rampage around crushing everything. Fielding or fighting them has always just felt crappy, and unfortunately I'm in the situation where now I have one (someone sold me a FW knight-Castigator for an absolute steal of a price) and wanting to play a guy who uses them (he's a cool guy, but his list is basically Wraithknights And Friends).

So does anyone have any advice for making these things more fun? Any units that can kill them over the course of a couple turns without being super inefficient? Any way to make titanic combat feel epic instead of "roll on this table til someone gets a six!"?

I've always been a fan of just limiting to larger games where armies typically have the right tools anyways.

The FW HH books do this well with some exceptions, where your army is limited to 25% in LoW max, and not under 2000pts. Boom, now at 2000pts, you'll see a Knight, but not multiple.

It'd be impossible to change now that people a accustomed to fielding 3+ Knights and such as a standalone army, but its a nice thought if you have a tight gaming group.

the_scotsman wrote:

So does anyone have any advice for making these things more fun? Any units that can kill them over the course of a couple turns without being super inefficient? Any way to make titanic combat feel epic instead of "roll on this table til someone gets a six!"?

Sternguard with meltas and combi-meltas, dropping in a drop pod, will put the hurt on an Imperial Knight.

Ork Rokkits are the answer to everything. PK too if it's not a Walker.

That said, you can house rule the escalation rules in. +1 to Seize, own unique Warlord Table and for every three Hull Points/Wounds caused, you get an additional VP. Would make it a bit fairer.

FW had this gak sorted, as already mentioned, but GW seemed to forget that rule when writing 7th edition. That's the best quick solution you can apply to 7th edition. (You could change the minimum value to 1500 or 1850 or whatever, but the 25% rule is a very good idea)

Apart from that, making superheavy combat feel epic? Play Apocalypse.

Yeah, I know stuff kills them. It just sucks to kill them all at once as much as it does to not have the tools to kill them.

Unlike apparently most 40k players, I kind of dislike removing 400 points of models with one shooting attack.

My last game had 3 WKs and my IK, i played cult mech+knights+allied guard platoon because they match the paint scheme.

The game went like this:

Turn 1, 1 wraithknight instantly deleted by 30" grav. D-cannon instantly deletes a tank. Turn 2, IK and WK get into combat, each lose D3 wounds. Wraithguard dismount and delete 600 points of robots. Turn 3, wraithknight gets a 6 so IK is gone. Second WK deleted by grav. Grav deleted by Wraithguard. 15 dire avengers dismount and delete 40 guardsmen in one shooting attack of them + 3 Wave serpents.

Nothing's left to challenge the wraithknight, games over.

Or you could change your goal setting so that it would be fun playing them.

You appear to currently set your goals every turn, as opposed to end of game. You want to chip away and get the Mission Accomplished feeling every turn. Superheavies might be delayed satisfaction.

the_scotsman wrote:
Hey Dakka,

I'm generally OK with most changes 7th has brought, but I have serious trouble having any fun with Superheavies like the IK or WK on the board.

To me, the fun part of 40k has always been watching things fight at lower and lower strength until they are destroyed. The truly epic moments are watching a lone survivor destroy an enemy tank, or watching a vehicle get its weapon blown off and ram the enemy in desperation with it's final hull point. Big things are fine as long as they can be killed by degrees, and the trouble is you really can't impede a Superheavy.

They continue to kick the crap out of everything until totally gone, which means either you demolish them in a single turn, or they rampage around crushing everything. Fielding or fighting them has always just felt crappy, and unfortunately I'm in the situation where now I have one (someone sold me a FW knight-Castigator for an absolute steal of a price) and wanting to play a guy who uses them (he's a cool guy, but his list is basically Wraithknights And Friends).

So does anyone have any advice for making these things more fun? Any units that can kill them over the course of a couple turns without being super inefficient? Any way to make titanic combat feel epic instead of "roll on this table til someone gets a six!"?

Play them at 2k + games only

Any lower then most people wont have enough to deal with it

At 2k or higher its there fault if they forget to pack a few anti tank weapons.
Though if you are running up with a full 2k list of nothing but imperial knights Then it might get a little dull a little quickly as you nullified a great deal of your enemies normal weaponry (besides crons)
I think 1-2 Supa at 2k is fine maybe 3-4 at 3k but i haven't played a higher than 2k game in a while so that takes some fenanngling and play testing.

Not at all. I'm fine with chipping away, as long as it actually feels like it's doing something. Killed a couple models in a unit, forced something to Jink so it doesn't get to shoot, damaged a tank/destroyed a weapon, fine. Even MC's, when they take 2-3 turns to bring down, and I have to trade a few models, that's fine.

But you can't tie up or impede a WK thanks to Stomp. It's just as deadly with 1 wound as 6, and has the ability to just instant death and ignore everything. So when you show up and you have the tools for the job, it's "well now I feel gakky for haywiring away 300 points with 1 attack" and when you don't it's "well there's nothing I can do while he stomps through double his points in my stuff."

Unfortunately they do just suck the fun out of the game. As you say, they either die in one turn or rampage forever. However, the whole game has gone up in power level, so they just represent a towering example of the cheese. So yeah, bigger games where they represent less, like 2500+ points. ITC has a 1 LoW max rule now (except IK detachments), which addresses some of the problems like the ludicrousness of 3 WKs

They only suck the fun out of the game because your expectations are still set on older editions of the game. 40k's moved on to newer, bigger expectations.

Some of us have been waiting patiently for over 2 decades to field Knight Titans and their ilk in regular games, to bring the superheavy tanks we've lovingly built and painted to the gaming table outside of the once or twice a year Apocalypse events. It's a part of the hobby, an old missing part that's here at last.

So, if this aspect of the game is sucking the fun out of it for you, it's you, not the hobby.

SJ

 Frozocrone wrote:
That said, you can house rule the escalation rules in. +1 to Seize, own unique Warlord Table and for every three Hull Points/Wounds caused, you get an additional VP. Would make it a bit fairer.

Is this really not the actual rule? Wow, I guess I have been playing my knight wrong. I always used the +1 seize and extra vp rules.

I just wish Stomp wasn't so OP or at the very least it acts kinda like smash where you give up your normal attacks to make stomp attacks.

At our store we just limit every player to one and it can't be more than 40% of your list. Keeps things simple and so far it's been really well received.

Most of the time I just tell my opponent ahead of time I am planning to bring a knight so that he is aware when making the list and can ensure it will be a fun game for us both.

The great thing about this game is you can choose the style of game you want to play. For me, I don't field or play against super heavies. I have no trouble finding like minded people to play.

If you find you are not enjoying games that include a SH then look for games that don't include them. Hopefully your area has people that feel the same way as you do.

cnpopo wrote:
The great thing about this game is you can choose the style of game you want to play. For me, I don't field or play against super heavies. I have no trouble finding like minded people to play.

If you find you are not enjoying games that include a SH then look for games that don't include them. Hopefully your area has people that feel the same way as you do.

I like playing with mine but have no problem with people saying they would prefer I don't bring it to the game, unless they are doing it to gain an unfair advantage.

Summon Seekers of Slaanesh or run loads of Cultists up around it. Seekers can be better due to larger bases.

Pile them around a SH, effectively immobilising it, but leaving space for a Lord of Skulls.

Drive a Lord of Skulls into it and tankshock it.

He can't move SH.

SH destroyed.

the_scotsman wrote:
Turn 1, 1 wraithknight instantly deleted by 30" grav. D-cannon instantly deletes a tank. Turn 2, IK and WK get into combat, each lose D3 wounds. Wraithguard dismount and delete 600 points of robots. Turn 3, wraithknight gets a 6 so IK is gone. Second WK deleted by grav. Grav deleted by Wraithguard. 15 dire avengers dismount and delete 40 guardsmen in one shooting attack of them + 3 Wave serpents.

Nothing's left to challenge the wraithknight, games over.

Um, sounds like you have "killing gargantuan creatures" down. Your problem wasn't superheavies...looks like it was grav, D-scythes, and D-weapons. Guess what? Riptides and Dreadknights (and old Wraithknights) still dish out S9/10/Instant death attacks down to one wound, no need to drop in effectiveness. There's a new formation of Land Raiders that essentially gives them the "Invincible behemoth" special rule. And a bunch of deathstars have Hit-and-Run or Gate of Infinity, meaning you can't tarpit them either (plus they have invisibility, so you can't really hurt them).

Guess what's more effective: Draigo+Loth+4 grav centurions, or 2 imperial knight paladins? They cost the same (roughly 750 pts).
Durability: Cent-star is invisible, tanks on a 2+/3++. Knights have a 4++ (only against ranged), AV12
Mobility: Cent-star has Gate of Infinity. Knights have a 12" move
Close combat: Cent-star has 4 WS6 S9 AP2 attacks at I5 and 3 WS5 S7 AP2 attacks at I1, all master-crafted and causing instant death, with an invisible 3++ (possibly a 2++ depending on RAI for Loth). Imperial Knights have a combined 6 WS4 D-weapon attacks at I4, and 2D3 stomps (5/6 of which will be S6 AP4 at best)
Ranged: Centstar has 20 BS4 AP2 grav-cannon shots, re-rolling wounds. The Imperial Knights have 4 battlecannon shots, plus 12 S4 AP6 shots.

I'd say the cent-star wins. The point? Points costs also matter, and Imperial Knights happen to be (IMO) fairly costed for what they do. Obviously there are some superheavies that are a problem (revenant titan, for example). The problem with the game though isn't superheavies, as you yourself pointed out if you would have looked closely at your own battle report. Rather, the problem is a massive expansion in firepower on the basic unit level that has rendered any previous standards of durability meaningless. Simply blaming "Superheavies" for the state of the game ignores the real offenders like scat-bikes, grav cannons, D-scythes, and ion accelerators that annihilate far more units than a simple stomp attack ever will.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
They only suck the fun out of the game because your expectations are still set on older editions of the game. 40k's moved on to newer, bigger expectations.

Some of us have been waiting patiently for over 2 decades to field Knight Titans and their ilk in regular games, to bring the superheavy tanks we've lovingly built and painted to the gaming table outside of the once or twice a year Apocalypse events. It's a part of the hobby, an old missing part that's here at last.

So, if this aspect of the game is sucking the fun out of it for you, it's you, not the hobby.

SJ

I disagree. The units are not properly balanced and just more GW cash grabs. Garbage, really.

 ChazSexington wrote:
Summon Seekers of Slaanesh or run loads of Cultists up around it. Seekers can be better due to larger bases.

Pile them around a SH, effectively immobilising it, but leaving space for a Lord of Skulls.

Drive a Lord of Skulls into it and tankshock it.

He can't move SH.

SH destroyed.

You can't tank shock a super heavy, just ram it. You don't even get to thunderblitz against SHs.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
That said, you can house rule the escalation rules in. +1 to Seize, own unique Warlord Table and for every three Hull Points/Wounds caused, you get an additional VP. Would make it a bit fairer.

Is this really not the actual rule? Wow, I guess I have been playing my knight wrong. I always used the +1 seize and extra vp rules.

In 6th if you wanted to use a SHV then you had to play an Escalation mission of which you followed those rules

In 7th GW realised that they were making them the moneyz so threw everything out the window

Most tournaments house rule them in though so there is a deterrent to bringing one

 Frozocrone wrote:
In 6th if you wanted to use a SHV then you had to play an Escalation mission of which you followed those rules

In 7th GW realised that they were making them the moneyz so threw everything out the window

Yeah I just looked at the Escalation FAQ. Seems those rules only apply in the escalation specific missions now. At least I don't have to worry about 5+ seize rolls any more.

As for the topic, I have found that it really depends what SHs you play. A single knight is a lot different to a Stormsword. Those 10" ignore cover blasts make the game a bit boring.

Martel732 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
They only suck the fun out of the game because your expectations are still set on older editions of the game. 40k's moved on to newer, bigger expectations.

Some of us have been waiting patiently for over 2 decades to field Knight Titans and their ilk in regular games, to bring the superheavy tanks we've lovingly built and painted to the gaming table outside of the once or twice a year Apocalypse events. It's a part of the hobby, an old missing part that's here at last.

So, if this aspect of the game is sucking the fun out of it for you, it's you, not the hobby.

SJ

I disagree. The units are not properly balanced and just more GW cash grabs. Garbage, really.

IKs are balanced. Most superheavy vehicles are overcosted. The WK is undercosted by about 150pts, but most Eldar units are extremely points efficient, which is why we hate them so.

SJ

I have no problem with vehicles in the 250-500pt range in my 2000 point games. What I wish is that they would create maybe a different damage table for them or something so you could at least feel like you were doing something to them.

Im sick of fielding my knight and watching it either go up in smoke in a single turn or simply stomping through 800 points of enemies until the game is over. With that kind of feast/famine gameplay they'll never be "balanced" always OP or worthless.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
They only suck the fun out of the game because your expectations are still set on older editions of the game. 40k's moved on to newer, bigger expectations.

Some of us have been waiting patiently for over 2 decades to field Knight Titans and their ilk in regular games, to bring the superheavy tanks we've lovingly built and painted to the gaming table outside of the once or twice a year Apocalypse events. It's a part of the hobby, an old missing part that's here at last.

So, if this aspect of the game is sucking the fun out of it for you, it's you, not the hobby.

SJ

I disagree. The units are not properly balanced and just more GW cash grabs. Garbage, really.

IKs are balanced. Most superheavy vehicles are overcosted. The WK is undercosted by about 150pts, but most Eldar units are extremely points efficient, which is why we hate them so.

SJ

Imperial Knights themselves aren't game breaking, they're just annoying and I wish they didn't exist. A whole army of them is, in fact, game breaking. A lot of armies don't have effective means to deal with that.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
They only suck the fun out of the game because your expectations are still set on older editions of the game. 40k's moved on to newer, bigger expectations.

Some of us have been waiting patiently for over 2 decades to field Knight Titans and their ilk in regular games, to bring the superheavy tanks we've lovingly built and painted to the gaming table outside of the once or twice a year Apocalypse events. It's a part of the hobby, an old missing part that's here at last.

So, if this aspect of the game is sucking the fun out of it for you, it's you, not the hobby.

SJ

I disagree. The units are not properly balanced and just more GW cash grabs. Garbage, really.

IKs are balanced. Most superheavy vehicles are overcosted. The WK is undercosted by about 150pts, but most Eldar units are extremely points efficient, which is why we hate them so.

SJ

Imperial Knights themselves aren't game breaking, they're just annoying and I wish they didn't exist. A whole army of them is, in fact, game breaking. A lot of armies don't have effective means to deal with that.

Incorrect. Every army has the ability to deal with Knights. Some players, however, do not necessarily plan to encounter them, then bitch on the Internet about them. If you can't kill a Leman Russ, you need to stop posting your failure as a player on the interwebz.

SJ

A knight is not a Leman Russ.

A Leman Russ is a 14/13/10 3 HP vehicle. It has no inherent save, and can be killed in a single shot and disabled through the vehicle damage table. It is also AV10 in melee.

A knight is also not TWO Leman Russes.

It has a Strength: D melee weapon on top of stomp in melee, and effectively double durability on one facing.

Drop melta is 50% less effective vs a knight.

Elite high-strength melee is up to 100% less effective against a knight.

AP1/AP2 high-strength weaponry such as Dark Lances and Lascannons are less than 50% as effective vs a knight.

If I construct an ork list with a Meganob bomb, with hidden PKs in my boyz squads, with Killa Kanz or Deff Dreads, those are anti-armor weapons that are NOT functional anti-knight weapons. I'm left with stuff like Tankbustas and Deffcoptas, which surprise surprise are the only things people bring to deal with armor nowadays because of the Superheavies entering the meta.

Yes, some anti-armor weapons are anti-knight weapons. But they severely limit the options, down to volume of fire anti-tank weaponry, Haywire, Strength D, etc.

Uhhh. I've included an IK several times in an 1850 list - they know it's coming and rarely does it live more than 2 turns. It's hardly OP. Then you have WK which are only OP because they are too cheap to come with 36" D weapons - they die pretty easy too though.

I agree that one IK isn't bad.
An army can be a pain if your not expecting it.

Jeffersonian - yes, every army has the ability to beat an IK army.
However, a balanced TAC army struggles greatly with it.
This is why people have noticed a rise in anti-armour.

So, you can run a balanced army and struggle or tailor heavily towards alot of armour to counter it. (But then struggle VS horde)


So a full army of them has changed it somewhat and how alot of people play.
Around my area FW has always been acceptable though, so I'm used to throwing a hierophant titan through them.