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Side AV 11 kills the Vindicator for me.

It's certainly not the most durable of tanks out there, that's for sure. What I've found in games that I've used the Vindicator is that the opponent is more concerned with the Chaplain headed 10 man DC squad jump packing it's way towards combat. I've played numerous games where the Vindicator has wiped full squads off of the table in 2-3 turns before it's been paid equal attention from fire.

Granted, it's not the best tactic and I'm running on a lot less experience than everyone in this discussion, but it's worked out for me. The highlight being squashing an Ork Warboss and five Megan Nobz in one shot. That was a game decider, literally.

 slowclinic wrote:
It's certainly not the most durable of tanks out there, that's for sure. What I've found in games that I've used the Vindicator is that the opponent is more concerned with the Chaplain headed 10 man DC squad jump packing it's way towards combat. I've played numerous games where the Vindicator has wiped full squads off of the table in 2-3 turns before it's been paid equal attention from fire.

Granted, it's not the best tactic and I'm running on a lot less experience than everyone in this discussion, but it's worked out for me. The highlight being squashing an Ork Warboss and five Megan Nobz in one shot. That was a game decider, literally.

Orks have notoriously poor anti-armor options, though. Eldar will glance it out from 36". Marines can target it with melta pods, etc.

KefkaZ wrote:
The big question here is what do you do to actually get BA into an assault? Drop Pods and Deep Strike for me have always resulted in things getting blown to bits the turn they arrive. The last SG+Dante unit I used had a turn of shooting and that was it. Do we have any other tactic to get our good assault-y units (i.e. SG & DC) into an assault other than sticking everything in Stormravens and hope they don't get shot down the first turn they get on the board?

Well, there is the Angel's Fury Spearhead formation, which makes assault immediately after deepstrike possible, but I've yet to see a single battle report with anyone using it and no one in this thread seems to be giving it a thought. I personally feel we'd all like to run it a few times just to try it out, but for Blood Angels players who most likely didn't have a bunch of tactical marines until we were forced to buy some this edition, 30 tactical marines and 3 stormravens seems an almost impossible to overcome barrier to entry. I personally have yet to field this formation, but I've purchased the tactical marines and they're slowly but surely getting assembled / painted. I still need to buy the 3rd Stormraven.

For those who don't know what they heck I'm talking about...The Angel's Fury Spearhead formation is 30 tactical marines with free locator beacons that must start the game in 3 stormravens. The entire formation comes in from reserves together on a single die roll, which is re-rollable and can begin on Turn 1. Afterwards, if a unit arrives by deep strike within 12" of two of the locator beacons, it can assault the turn it deep strikes. Oh yeah...the tactical marines are objective secured. Cool Beans.

The cost of the formation is 1020pts without upgrading any of the tactical marines, which is another hurdle most have no interest in jumping. I personally feel (without any actual game experience using the formation, as of yet) that 3 FIRST TURN (most likely) Stormravens and 30 objective secured tactical marines that can combat squad and drop out of the Stormravens is a decent use of points. It's not the reason I got into BA, but the rest of the points can be spent on that, and there's a pretty good chance my dedicated assault unit is going to be able to do it's work, which is what we're all interested in anyway.

Obviously, the bigger the point total of the game the better this formation works. 1850 is probably the minimum I'd want to try it. 2000 feels a lot better. This all, of course, is coming from a guy who hasn't played the formation yet...but I'm painting it up and will be playing it soon.

It's just Skyhammer -2. Just like everything with BA.

I still have success with BA, albeit, its rough. What I've taken to doing is simply going with 2 scout squads with camo.cloaks whose main job is to hold 2(depending on scouts numbers) objectives and GtG and stay alive, I then grab 3 ASM squads for melta duty, 2 6-9 man death company units with a fist, 2 sang guard squads, a priest and lib, if points permit, Dante.

Then, at higher points, take take another formation,
This Time around grab two fragiosos in pods for that amazing template.

You have the option of
1- all but null deployment, everything deepstrikes save scouts.

Dante- gives you 1d6 scatter, and your units have re-roll to resever rolls.

Or
2- deploy everything, the. Drop in whatever is needed from your pods. Put dante with priest in one sang unit, put another priest and lib in the other. (Note, I don't give the priests much, if I do I give one valors edge, another a normal power wep)

Your force is deadly, highly mobile, and has no real "must die" threats, all are deadly for the points, and all can be in the face T2 against most armies, save jetbike lists.

 raiden wrote:
I still have success with BA, albeit, its rough. What I've taken to doing is simply going with 2 scout squads with camo.cloaks whose main job is to hold 2(depending on scouts numbers) objectives and GtG and stay alive, I then grab 3 ASM squads for melta duty, 2 6-9 man death company units with a fist, 2 sang guard squads, a priest and lib, if points permit, Dante.

Then, at higher points, take take another formation,
This Time around grab two fragiosos in pods for that amazing template.

You have the option of
1- all but null deployment, everything deepstrikes save scouts.

Dante- gives you 1d6 scatter, and your units have re-roll to resever rolls.

Or
2- deploy everything, the. Drop in whatever is needed from your pods. Put dante with priest in one sang unit, put another priest and lib in the other. (Note, I don't give the priests much, if I do I give one valors edge, another a normal power wep)

Your force is deadly, highly mobile, and has no real "must die" threats, all are deadly for the points, and all can be in the face T2 against most armies, save jetbike lists.

Sounds as good as anything else.

 evildrcheese wrote:
It is true. Pure BA struggle to compete. What we really need are units with staying power, we just lack anything really durable.

Actually what we need is damage output that is viable from T1 and isn't reliant on getting the charge. However as an assault army, we're unlikely to see that until they re-address the shooting vs punching power imbalance...

D

When you say durable, do you mean when able to take armor, invuln, or FNP rolls? With Sanguinary Priests, I would think that BA has a great capability to make any unit live longer assuming not AP3 and S8. Sanguinary Priests and T5 bike units are also very tough. The FNP is why DC and SG with SP are popular. Could always go maximum toughness with Assault Terminators with TH/SS.

Not depending upon psychic powers, the only SM units I can think of that can get tougher overall than BA is when you pair the SP with the SM Iron Hands T5 units, 2+ armor units or 3++ invuln units.

This is all of course not counting HQs that you may be using as tanks.

I find BA to be fairly durable. More so than regular SM but less than Necrons. I miss mini MC mephiston from the last dex. Thought the addition on IC on him makes it a wash overall, he just plays different meow.

I agree our real weakness is lack of heavy hitting outside of CC.

Durable as in Wraith durable or TWC durable. BA durability is a joke compared to the true CC units of the game.


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Red Inquisition wrote:
I find BA to be fairly durable. More so than regular SM but less than Necrons. I miss mini MC mephiston from the last dex. Thought the addition on IC on him makes it a wash overall, he just plays different meow.

I agree our real weakness is lack of heavy hitting outside of CC.

I don't think BA CC is that great. Not enough of it makes it to the targets.

I'd argue that, sang guard are good for the points. Much better than terminators point for point.

Their only flaws are

- one wound models, no invulnerable save without a lucky lib roll.
-lack of T5.

Other than that, the sang guard offensive power compared to wraiths is a fair bit higher, especially against 4+ or better armor.

TWC are slightly closer on the offensive power thing, but are leaps ahead in durability due to T5 2W. However, they are quite more expensive.

Sanguinary guard are a scalpel, you have to use them like one. That, or you are just using them for extra wounds on Dante.

Martel732 wrote:
Durable as in Wraith durable or TWC durable. BA durability is a joke compared to the true CC units of the game.


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Red Inquisition wrote:
I find BA to be fairly durable. More so than regular SM but less than Necrons. I miss mini MC mephiston from the last dex. Thought the addition on IC on him makes it a wash overall, he just plays different meow.

I agree our real weakness is lack of heavy hitting outside of CC.

I don't think BA CC is that great. Not enough of it makes it to the targets.

I will agree that wraiths are at the top of the CC ladder in terms of really everything. Offensively they have str6 rending attacks, defensively they have t5, w2 and a 3++ (not to mention the possibility of reanimation protocols) and are highly mobile. The absurd part is that a wraith with whip coils is only 43ppm.

But Death Company stack up very well to thunderwolf cav. Just compare the 2 most common squad loadouts. 5 thunderwolves with 5 storm shields and 1 power fist comes out to 300 points. 10 death co with jump packs and 2 fists is 280 points. Both are highly mobile, have a total of 10 wounds to go through and are reasonably durable. The wolves pack 10 wounds at t5 with a 3+/3++, while the death co boast 10 wounds protected by a 3+/5+++ at t4. This makes them equally as durable to small arms fire, but while the DC have the advantage vs autocannon equivalents, TWC are almost infinitely better against anti tank guns and don't lose combat effectoveness with every wound suffered. The DC make up for this with raw offensive potential, however. The wolves pack 20 str5 rending attacks in the first round of combat, supplemented by 5 more str10 ap2 attacks, which is respectable. But death co rock in with a whopping 40 str5 (and possibly initiative 5) attacks on the charge, with another 8 at str9 ap2. It should be noted though that TWC get these attacks whether they charge or get assaulted.

Really, both are fantastic units that firmly put themselves in the top 3 non HQ/LoW assault units in the game, with the ranking going something like Wraiths, Thunderwolv Cav, and Death Company in that order.

TWC have invulnerable saves. They also ignore -2 for charging and get fleet period.

 raiden wrote:
TWC have invulnerable saves. They also ignore -2 for charging and get fleet period.

I mentioned the invulnerable save in the previous post. The ignoring -2 charge range and fleet i forgot to mention, though bringing that up makes it worth mentioning that death co are 33% more durable when it comes to dangerous terrain tests.

TWC can also get 2+ invul with allies (gk), we don't have any amazing ally synergi with DC. I'd rate MoN spawns, Praetorians, Maulerfiends, Khorne Dogs, Black Knights (hybrid unit) and probably a few more, over DC.

Refresh my memory, can Blood Angels take bikes with grav guns?

If so, BA players have nothing to complain about.

Haruspex wrote:
Refresh my memory, can Blood Angels take bikes with grav guns?

If so, BA players have nothing to complain about.

They can, but why would you not just call them "red scars" and give them obsec by being in the core marines codex with a biker HQ? Because you want furious charge with your 1 attack?

Some people like me weren't drawn to blood Angels because of bikes. We were drawn to jump packs, death company, deep striking, assaulty marines, and so on.

All the main points have already been covered but yeah it's the lack of multi wound with decent T and decent Invul type models that I consider durable.

T4 with 3+ and 5+ FnP really isn't anything to wrote home about. BA felt more durable when we had access to more priests (being back 3 per slot and make them slotless!)...especially when FnP was a 4+...then we at least felt more durable.

As for Sang Guard, a 2+ is useles when there's so much grav about...

D

Haruspex wrote:
Refresh my memory, can Blood Angels take bikes with grav guns?

If so, BA players have nothing to complain about.

Orks can take eldar scatterbikes as allies so they have nothing to complain about. See how silly that sounds?


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 th3maninblak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Durable as in Wraith durable or TWC durable. BA durability is a joke compared to the true CC units of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Red Inquisition wrote:
I find BA to be fairly durable. More so than regular SM but less than Necrons. I miss mini MC mephiston from the last dex. Thought the addition on IC on him makes it a wash overall, he just plays different meow.

I agree our real weakness is lack of heavy hitting outside of CC.

I don't think BA CC is that great. Not enough of it makes it to the targets.

I will agree that wraiths are at the top of the CC ladder in terms of really everything. Offensively they have str6 rending attacks, defensively they have t5, w2 and a 3++ (not to mention the possibility of reanimation protocols) and are highly mobile. The absurd part is that a wraith with whip coils is only 43ppm.

But Death Company stack up very well to thunderwolf cav. Just compare the 2 most common squad loadouts. 5 thunderwolves with 5 storm shields and 1 power fist comes out to 300 points. 10 death co with jump packs and 2 fists is 280 points. Both are highly mobile, have a total of 10 wounds to go through and are reasonably durable. The wolves pack 10 wounds at t5 with a 3+/3++, while the death co boast 10 wounds protected by a 3+/5+++ at t4. This makes them equally as durable to small arms fire, but while the DC have the advantage vs autocannon equivalents, TWC are almost infinitely better against anti tank guns and don't lose combat effectoveness with every wound suffered. The DC make up for this with raw offensive potential, however. The wolves pack 20 str5 rending attacks in the first round of combat, supplemented by 5 more str10 ap2 attacks, which is respectable. But death co rock in with a whopping 40 str5 (and possibly initiative 5) attacks on the charge, with another 8 at str9 ap2. It should be noted though that TWC get these attacks whether they charge or get assaulted.

Really, both are fantastic units that firmly put themselves in the top 3 non HQ/LoW assault units in the game, with the ranking going something like Wraiths, Thunderwolv Cav, and Death Company in that order.

I would definitely put Renegade Spawn (for 275pts that's 5 units of 3 spawn) and potentially Lychguard ahead of them (although Lychguard's lack of speed makes that debatable). But overall - yeh they are definitely up there.

niv-mizzet wrote:

Haruspex wrote:
Refresh my memory, can Blood Angels take bikes with grav guns?

If so, BA players have nothing to complain about.

They can, but why would you not just call them "red scars" and give them obsec by being in the core marines codex with a biker HQ? Because you want furious charge with your 1 attack?

Some people like me weren't drawn to blood Angels because of bikes. We were drawn to jump packs, death company, deep striking, assaulty marines, and so on.

Oh, didn't realize that you were trying to be competitive and fluffy at the same time. But we are talking 40K 7th edition here, where a competitive ork list is a mass gunline of grot artillery. I guess the BA assault units just need access to better weapons. Grav stuff for assault marines and death company, power sword upgrades for assault marines, meltaguns and cheaper power swords for death company.

I'm at work so i can't post a ton about it now, but i did manage to beat a space marine list in a 2250 game with baal strike force+first company task force. Mission was ITC mission big guns never tire varient, i think. His list was mechanized demi company+space marine CAD+Skitarii maniple, with ultramarines chapter tactics. Ill post lists when i can.

DC vs. Wraiths is no contest. 10 DC with no special weapons lead by Astorath will eliminate 5 Wraiths on the charge with just average rolls. The Wraiths will do about 1 wound back.

5 TWC will be equally decimated and probably not give any wounds back if the DC go at initiative 5 with a Baal Strike Force.

Psychic powers won't save these guys either as Culexus assassins are easy to obtain and transport in this game.

Don't tell me that the DC will be all shot up before they get there either. I don't live in the same vacuum where the BA Vindicator, drop podding Furioso, grav bikes, etc... Are all ignored so that the DC get shot up exclusively.

As a side note, the Librarian Furioso is nothing to disregard. It will always know the Quickening which can be more than enough to deal some serious damage in combat especially to Knights.

"Don't tell me that the DC will be all shot up before they get there either. "

They will be shot up before they get there. Modern 7th ed lists can burn down all the units you mentioned, sometimes in the same turn.

"As a side note, the Librarian Furioso is nothing to disregard"

No, but you overpaid to get it on the field.

The easiest solution of all with Wraiths and TWC is to not let the DC assault you. Make sure you can assault them.

10 naked jump DC and astorath is a 400 point small unit, encroaching on "small deathstar" territory. By all rights I would hope that it could take on half its point value in wraiths. They also need to get the charge or they lose a lot of combat prowess.

And yes it will get shot. One does not simply NOT shoot a threatening enemy deathstar that has no defense other than power armor and fnp.

niv-mizzet wrote:
10 naked jump DC and astorath is a 400 point small unit, encroaching on "small deathstar" territory. By all rights I would hope that it could take on half its point value in wraiths. They also need to get the charge or they lose a lot of combat prowess.

And yes it will get shot. One does not simply NOT shoot a threatening enemy deathstar that has no defense other than power armor and fnp.

I missed the Astorath part. Astorath? Really? LOL.

niv-mizzet wrote:
10 naked jump DC and astorath is a 400 point small unit, encroaching on "small deathstar" territory. By all rights I would hope that it could take on half its point value in wraiths. They also need to get the charge or they lose a lot of combat prowess.

And yes it will get shot. One does not simply NOT shoot a threatening enemy deathstar that has no defense other than power armor and fnp.

I have never seen a unit of Wraiths outside the formation. So add in the Spyder, scarabs and 15pts for coils and it's 400pts for DC + Astorath vs. 345pts in the Wraith formation. Not quite half its point value don't you think.

Would you rather shoot the DC, who may or may not be seen on the table (did you see the BAO terrain?), or the Castigator barreling into you lines while 2 Furioso's podded into you army? They will get there.


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Martel732 wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
10 naked jump DC and astorath is a 400 point small unit, encroaching on "small deathstar" territory. By all rights I would hope that it could take on half its point value in wraiths. They also need to get the charge or they lose a lot of combat prowess.

And yes it will get shot. One does not simply NOT shoot a threatening enemy deathstar that has no defense other than power armor and fnp.

I missed the Astorath part. Astorath? Really? LOL.

Astorath allows the DC to reroll all hits and wounds in combat. He's what allows them to reliably kill all those death stars you are impotent against.


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Martel732 wrote:
"Don't tell me that the DC will be all shot up before they get there either. "

They will be shot up before they get there. Modern 7th ed lists can burn down all the units you mentioned, sometimes in the same turn.

Ha Ha Ha. You don't play on the table do you. Just theory hammer all day long?

Here is a battle report with a Gladius (full of Razorbacks and 5-man squads) vs. a double Wraithknight list with 2 units of Warp Spiders, Scatter laser War Walkers, D-cannon artillery, etc.... And NOTHING dies on turn 1 ....... from either side. No nightlight. No null deployment, in fact Dawn of War deployment which makes hiding more difficult.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9a5KiUz94ew

This was at a tourney 2 weeks ago which featured 3 major GT winners of the last year and a half. One of them is playing in this game. Nothing died turn 1.

I didn't say turn one. I said in one turn. I could be turn 3 that you get vaporized. It doesn't really matter. DC are pretty easy to counter: shoot them or assault them.

The issue i have with Astorath is it's so obvious what that unit needs to do, any player familiar with how much dmg they do on the charge won't let it happen and target priority becomes easy for opponent.

I do like to use DC/Asto, but they usually only do well vs other assault lists when you can screen them with cheap models or if opponent is running a Deathstar and unaware of what they do on the charge.

A canoptek harvest wraith formation dosnt mind getting shot to death since they are quite cost effcient at soaking dmg, that is why they outshine units like the Death Company.

BA work just fine... Just play Tyranid, Dark Eldar, Guard, Orks, CSM, and all the other pre 2015 factions

Or play them as vanilla SM against post 2015 factions.

Or be a taxi service for allies.

Or just have a little lower win ratio. It's not like they can't win; it's just that everything is a lil harder.

Astorath with 10 death co is quickly becoming my go to main unit in most games, and is up there with Dante+Priest+Sanguinary guard. While its true that units like Asty with DC don't do well vs armies with a lot of long range shooting, I will say that against medium to short range shooting armies and other assault lists they are worth their weight in gold. Plus, while theyre not a death star, they ARE an anti death star, and tend to kill the things we have problems with.