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 dusara217 wrote:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
Though the Craftworld Eldar may have a bit better standard of living, from a purely material standpoint, but I think the Tau are more content. Sure, they live in a rigid, oppressive caste system, but their Big Brother state surely has some form of brain-washing to make sure they're content. Eldar, on the other hand, are pretty much all aware of how screwed they are. Simply because of blissful ignorance, I voted Tau.

I have never heard of the caste system being oppressive. Mind providing a quote?

No qoute needed, just look at the people on the bottom of the cast system in India! Or any other nation in the world we live in today where a cast system is in effevt, its by default made to oppress those whom is enslaved by it. All except those on the very top of said system

The Imperium of Man: Cons- Sorry, at least one world within it probably literally eats gak. Paperwork in triplicates on everything keeps even the affluent from really experiencing pleasure. 5-baseline for all the other factions

Dark Eldar: Pros- Speaking of pleasure.... get decent marks for food and arts and what not. Cons-A culture wide chronic backstabing disorder and constantly working against a deadline that ushers your soul into eternal torment tanks the score. 3-7 (depending on taste)

Craftworld Eldar: Pros: They are living in the future (think japan). Cons- Near certain extinction being a very real threat, some individuals have reported a lack of libido. 8-basically the best

Tau: Pros- Good dental. Cons-Rigid societal structure and a distinct lack of partying being ordered for the greater good are killjoys. 6-(unless you're into FREEEDOM!!! in which case this drops to 0)

Tryanids: Pros- good bragging rights. Cons-Gruel is unappetizing. Meritorious actions are left unrewarded. 3-(IoM baseline is looow)

Necrons: Pros-Don't have to work out or eat. Have a faster car than you. Cons (see why I did that?)-Are mostly insane or lonely. Have itches they can't scratch. 5.5-(Seriously, IoM is, like, not hard to beat)

Space Marines: Pros- Have an extra stomach. Cons-That stomach is not for food. 5-(basically the IoM)

Orks: Pros- Societal lack of Depression. Cons- Societal lack of toilets. 6-(Basically the IoM, minus depression)

Eldar Craftworlds and Tau

Craftworld eldar by a longshot. After than tau and DE, depending on your PoV.

Thinking about it though. the Tau them selves as a species would be 10 out of 10 wound 10 again since they are all indoctrinated from the beginning to work that way together. so everyone is contempt with what they do. and im pretty sure drones do a lot more of the grunt work.

As for any integrated xenos and ummies, From what i understand they usually leave them to there own governments and politics so long as they provide tithes or do what the tau want them to do.

I dont recall hearing mass planetary removal to just use them as cannon fodder or mass trench diggers.

So the non Tau part of tau would have wildly different standards from complete dictatorships to paradise worlds. who really knows.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they only time they would be deployed would be if the planet it'self was under attack.

The cynic in me says that i think the tau only incorporate "allies" as bait so they can attack from a different angle while the planet is getting wrecked.

 Desubot wrote:
The cynic in me says that i think the tau only incorporate "allies" as bait so they can attack from a different angle while the planet is getting wrecked.

For the greater good.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Their teeth growth and decay are at set rates making it impossible for one Ork to horde and become too rich or for any Ork to stay poor for too long. They have one of the most balanced economic of the races genetically built into the race. Any design that causes the Orks to fight each other is done purposely, fighting and winning (and thus someone losing) is aboslutely utterly necessary for the growth of this alien race. Many more Orks are already growing out of the ground anyways so their proliferation was designed to keep this in mind. Orks are an artificially created race btw, designed to fight, designed to live and thrive under the unnatural condition and environment of WAR. Their creators made war and it's ugliness to be their high standard of living. A human standard simply doesn't apply. In this regard I'll agree that Orks shouldn't be on the list, in fact only humans should be on the list under that standard. But I'll as easily wave it off that the Orks are at the top of all the races by a landslide and this is to work out who is next under them.

Well said

There are a TON of Ork fanboys in here. Freaking animals.

I'm the OP I get to set what the thread is about. Ork-lovers GTFO.

I already said sophisticated self-determination and sure fine this is from a HUMAN perspective of human standards of living.

From a human perspective Orks live in total anarchy and brutality. Mad Max on steriods.

Too many Orks in the galaxy to be easily held in check by a mere biased poll. You'll need more polls and line them up as a wall. Also I'd like to point out that being able to tellyport blindly and reliably without materializing in solid matter is some pretty sophisticated gak amongst many other incredible Ork feats.

DorianGray wrote:
There are a TON of Ork fanboys in here. Freaking animals.

I'm the OP I get to set what the thread is about. Ork-lovers GTFO.

I already said sophisticated self-determination and sure fine this is from a HUMAN perspective of human standards of living.

From a human perspective Orks live in total anarchy and brutality. Mad Max on steriods.

Not all humans crave our supposed societal norms. I mean, as a family man, I rather appreciate those societal norms. But some people like to live lives out in the boonies, avoiding human contact as best they can. Others crave conflict, even thriving upon it. That is self determination, and Orks abound in it.

Of the available societies, I'd probably want to live with the Tau. It's Grimdark, so even they aren't all that awesome, but their Greater Good is the "best" choice of what's going on.

And trying to impose current "human" [By which I assume you mean Western Civilization, you Imperialist ] standards, everyone in 40k sucks. At least the Orks get to move up in a clearly defined fashion. They aren't forced to stick with a given group, they're free to come and go as they please. Nothing stopping an ork from setting up shop as a cook, or a mechanic's assistant, or a gardener... that just doesn't make it into the fluff. I can't imagine any race with more individual freedoms. Do whatever you want, and if someone bigger than you threatens to beat you up, either do what they say, or get stuck in. Either way, you'll have a good time, so what's wrong with that?

Well if this is by human standards... the IoM wins hands down because everyone else is filthy xenos or traitors who must be purged because they are evil.

Also, calm down a bit OP. I know you asked for no orks specifically, but there's better ways of asking people to stop than calling them "freaking animals" and telling everyone who loves orks to "get the feth out".

Wait... I love orks...

Time for this animal to GTFO, then
(unless of course not leaving would cause a good fight, orks love a good fight)

 Desubot wrote:
The cynic in me says that i think the tau only incorporate "allies" as bait so they can attack from a different angle while the planet is getting wrecked.

Given that Tau incorporate self-preservation protocols in their drones, you're wrong. The Tau value machines more than, say, the IoM values human life.

DorianGray wrote:
There are a TON of Ork fanboys in here. Freaking animals.

No need to be rude, mate.

DorianGray wrote:
I'm the OP I get to set what the thread is about. Ork-lovers GTFO.

What's wrong with a little Humie-Ork bromance? Ghazzy and Yarrick do it all the time. And that's not typically how open forums work. You start with a general topic, after a few posts the thread goes a little off track, someone reigns it in, occasionally it gets derailed in the middle, then it converges back OT until everyone gets bored / the discussion ends.

DorianGray wrote:
I already said sophisticated self-determination and sure fine this is from a HUMAN perspective of human standards of living.

Which makes the IOM the only possible choice. Aliens have no reason to conform to human standards, and Orks are a case of Blue and Orange Morality.

DorianGray wrote:
From a human perspective Orks live in total anarchy and brutality. Mad Max on steriods.

And they perceive that to be the best thing ever. As far as anyone can tell, Orks are the happiest beings in the universe.

 Selym wrote:

Which makes the IOM the only possible choice.

I am not sure why you say this. I am human, and from my perspective the safe, artistic, advanced life of the Eldar seems vastly superior to the painful life of 1984 slavery offered by the Imperium.

 Selym wrote:
And they perceive that to be the best thing ever. As far as anyone can tell, Orks are the happiest beings in the universe.

As already stated, happiness and standard of living is not the same thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:
No need to be rude, mate.

Calling others animals is indeed much too far, although it does get a bit jarring to see every race thread in 40k get a bunch of 'orks win because orks xd' replies.

I was an Ork player too at first, and their zane can actually be pretty fun, although at some point the 'orks win because orks' mentality ends and generally that is where logic begins. In discussions like this one, I prefer using the latter.

The Orks have their place - they are the comedic relief race - although they really fall apart pretty fast once some logic is injected, and arguing that their standard of living is somehow not only not abysmal but actually the highest is utterly absurd.

BrianDavion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Most of humanity live in awful conditions on hive worlds... and there're worse hells in the Imperium.

you're assuming most Imperial worlds are hive worlds an assumption not born out by any evidance. not to say humanity has the highest standards of living by any amount. (I'd argue the IoM proably has the greatest wealth gap with humans living in both the best and the worst conditions) but I've never been given the impression hive worlds are the most common

No need for most imperial worlds to be hiveworlds. It's sufficient for the 32000+ or so giveworlds to have roughly a 20 times the population of the average non hiveworld to actualy house the majority of mankind.

Yeah and I'm sure living on those Agri-worlds is like rural Alabama or in England Northern Ireland.

Real high standards of livin there.

You'll be born a farmer, die a farmer, wanted to do anything else? Nope.

DorianGray wrote:
Yeah and I'm sure living on those Agri-worlds is like rural Alabama or in England Northern Ireland.

Real high standards of livin there.

You'll be born a farmer, die a farmer, wanted to do anything else? Nope.

I don't know about Alabama, but rural England and Northern Ireland aren't that far from better populated areas, and tend to be close to some nice villages. Higher standards of living in many of those places than in London at times.

You called Belfast a better populated area? I lived in London for years and while I was in South Kensington even Peckham and Brixton is better than parts of rural midlands or desolate Yorkshire. I mean the country might be pretty but low income and lack of opportunities are not. In London at least you're a tube stop away from posh bits.

 odinsgrandson wrote:
Standard of living is based on wealth and economic satisfaction of the citizenry.

- Dark Eldar are pirates- and people turn to piracy due to economic troubles. For a whole people to be pirates, the resources much be scarce.

- In the Imperium of Man, there are definitely a few people living it up (I'm sure much smaller than .01%) and the majority of the species lives in squalor and fear. If the average person were well off, then the IoM wouldn't need the level of fascism, propaganda and indoctrination that they use (ie- a wealthy, happy culture won't turn to revolution/worship of the chaos gods to solve their problems).

- The Tau I'm less sure about. Sure, they seem optimistic on the outside, but "for the greater good" is clearly propaganda- the slogan is asking sacrifices from Tau citizenry.

- The Eldar on the craftworlds are odd. They are all subject to a very regular draft, so there are clearly too few full time soldiers in their society.

Yet, some of their people follow the path of the artist. Eldar art is a the true expressive art and not government mandated propaganda.

That means that the Eldar's basic needs for food and clothing are being met, and there is enough to spare that the society can support some members not employed to meet the society's needs.

So, the fact that they do not employ a large enough standing army to defend themselves is a question of cultural priorities.

In short, the Eldar value their culture and art above their very survival in war. It is arrogant, but in character.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and while orks do have enough resources to fill their needs, they don't share them with one another. Orks live in a Hobsian state of nature where their lives are poor, nasty, brutish and short.

Orks are not content economically, or they wouldn't steal one another's teeth so often.

You seem to be ignorant of the most fundamental portions of the Orks and the Dark Eldar. I'll make a list, because reasons.
1.) Dark Eldar must either a.)continually rape and torture and murder and otherwise give themselves pleasure, or b.) have their souls eaten by Slaanesh, the Prince of Pleasure, the God of Excess, whom the whole of the Eldar species know as "she who thirst"
2.) Dark Eldar, without exception, love raping and pillaging, which is why they don't just go and raid lightly defended agri-worlds, they seek out the heavily defended systems and burn them to the ground - just to say that they can.
3.) Orks are basically Khorne incarnate - they love war, war is who they are, why they exist, and their only way of being happy. If there were peace, they would be miserable. They seek out the toughest fights imaginable specifically to fight a good fight. Ork heaven would be the same as Norse Heaven - Valhalla.
4.) Orks have everything they need to survive and thrive encoded within their DNA. The very same Fungus that they grow from provides them with food. Encoded within Ork DNA is the ability to create virtually every Ork construct in use, from a battleship to a pistol (Orks basically come with an STC machine in every cell of their bodies). However, Orks love pillaging and looting, so they usually like to loot the Void Ships of other species, as well as the rest of their tech.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Trondheim wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
Though the Craftworld Eldar may have a bit better standard of living, from a purely material standpoint, but I think the Tau are more content. Sure, they live in a rigid, oppressive caste system, but their Big Brother state surely has some form of brain-washing to make sure they're content. Eldar, on the other hand, are pretty much all aware of how screwed they are. Simply because of blissful ignorance, I voted Tau.

I have never heard of the caste system being oppressive. Mind providing a quote?

No qoute needed, just look at the people on the bottom of the cast system in India! Or any other nation in the world we live in today where a cast system is in effevt, its by default made to oppress those whom is enslaved by it. All except those on the very top of said system

Except that there is not top of said system. From the Water Caste to the Fire Caste, the highest ranking members have at least as much power as the Ethereals do. The Ethereals guide and direct the Tau Empire, but the Kor'O or Por'O have the ability to countermand an Aun'Ui.

The Indian Caste system could be considered a horizontal caste system - that is, no ability to rise in the ranks. The Tau caste system is more along the lines of a vertical caste system, that is, restricted to a single general area for your job, but still more than capable or rising high in the ranks of where you're at. For instance, the lowest born member of the Earth Caste could one day be the architect of an entire Sept's city layouts. A Fire Caste member born to a lowly grunt could one day be a great general (like Shadowsun, Coldfire, Dawnlight, etc.). The daughter of a lowly fighter pilot might one day be the Admiral at the helm of a massive fleet. The son of a lowly Water Caste bureaucrat might one day be in command of a mighty trading empire.

Not to mention the fact that each caste is selectively bred to excel in their specific theater of the empire. The Fire Caste are ensured to be faster, stronger, with sharper eyesight. The Water Caste is ensured to be able to use words like most men couldn't dream. The Air Caste is ensured to be excellent pilots, with the best motor control. The Earth Caste is ensured to be both strong and clever, with the ability to design the mightiest of structures, while at the same time having the ability to erect them. So, you see, for 99% of the members in each caste, there would be virtually no desire to do the work of another caste. They are genetically designed to be the best in their field, and a Fire Warrior would lack the precision and skill of an Fighter Pilot, just like the Fighter Pilot's skeleton would collapse in the gravity of a standard world, and they would be too weak to do battle or build structures, just like an Earth Caste mason would be too slow of reflex to effectively pilot a ship, or to uncharismatic to convince an entire solar system to turn its coat, like the Water Caste would.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
Thinking about it though. the Tau them selves as a species would be 10 out of 10 wound 10 again since they are all indoctrinated from the beginning to work that way together. so everyone is contempt with what they do. and im pretty sure drones do a lot more of the grunt work.

As for any integrated xenos and ummies, From what i understand they usually leave them to there own governments and politics so long as they provide tithes or do what the tau want them to do.

I dont recall hearing mass planetary removal to just use them as cannon fodder or mass trench diggers.

So the non Tau part of tau would have wildly different standards from complete dictatorships to paradise worlds. who really knows.

The Tau treat human worlds basically the same way as the Imperium of Man does - basically, if you're paying your tithes and conforming to the religion of the hegemony, do what you want. In the case of the Tau, however, the religion (the Greater Good) isn't completely and utterly xenophobic, not to mention the fact that it doesn't completely destroy any and all technological growth/innovation that might occur on the world.

Except that there is not top of said system. From the Water Caste to the Fire Caste, the highest ranking members have at least as much power as the Ethereals do. The Ethereals guide and direct the Tau Empire, but the Kor'O or Por'O have the ability to countermand an Aun'Ui.

Citation needed.

The Indian Caste system could be considered a horizontal caste system - that is, no ability to rise in the ranks. The Tau caste system is more along the lines of a vertical caste system, that is, restricted to a single general area for your job, but still more than capable or rising high in the ranks of where you're at. For instance, the lowest born member of the Earth Caste could one day be the architect of an entire Sept's city layouts. A Fire Caste member born to a lowly grunt could one day be a great general (like Shadowsun, Coldfire, Dawnlight, etc.). The daughter of a lowly fighter pilot might one day be the Admiral at the helm of a massive fleet. The son of a lowly Water Caste bureaucrat might one day be in command of a mighty trading empire.

But in no case will anyone not of the Ethereal Caste become an Ethereal, which is the ruling caste of Tau society.

Not to mention the fact that each caste is selectively bred to excel in their specific theater of the empire. The Fire Caste are ensured to be faster, stronger, with sharper eyesight. The Water Caste is ensured to be able to use words like most men couldn't dream. The Air Caste is ensured to be excellent pilots, with the best motor control. The Earth Caste is ensured to be both strong and clever, with the ability to design the mightiest of structures, while at the same time having the ability to erect them. So, you see, for 99% of the members in each caste, there would be virtually no desire to do the work of another caste. They are genetically designed to be the best in their field, and a Fire Warrior would lack the precision and skill of an Fighter Pilot, just like the Fighter Pilot's skeleton would collapse in the gravity of a standard world, and they would be too weak to do battle or build structures, just like an Earth Caste mason would be too slow of reflex to effectively pilot a ship, or to uncharismatic to convince an entire solar system to turn its coat, like the Water Caste would.

Because they are sub-species of a common ancestor. It's not just selective breeding, it's also that breeding outside of one's caste simply doesn't happen (may not be possible, either). If you are born into the Earth Caste, you will be a laborer. That's your lot in life, regardless of what else you might want to do... and while there is maybe the chance that you will rise to become someone of importance in the Caste, you better hope you were born on a world where such opportunities exist, otherwise you're digging sewer lines your entire life.

Alright, now, Psienesis, I shall acquire the quotes I need to prove myself right, or to prove myself wrong. To the fluff! Also, I'll see if I can get some stuff from Fire Warrior, but I don't have the Tau Codex, so I can basically only stick to the Wiki and Lexicanum, but, considering the fact that these are collectively generally rather well respected, that will have to do for now. I'll see if I can bring in more later.
This chart of Tau ranks can be found on both http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Caste_System and http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tau#Tau_Ranks

Caste\Rank Trainee rank - SAAL[1] Lowest rank - LA Second lowest rank - UI Middle rank - VRE Second highest rank - EL Highest rank - O
Fire - Shas .Underling..............................Warrior.........................Veteran..............................Hero.................................Noble or Knight......................Commander
Earth - Fio .Apprentice.............................Worker.........................Senior................................Overseer.........................Engineer..................................Planner
Water - Por. Assistant..................................Bureaucrat..................Envoy................................Magister..........................Diplomat..................................Ambassador
Air - Kor . Deliverer...............................Messenger..................Carrier................................Pilot..................................Captain................................... Admiral
Ethereal - Aun. Lord.....................................Prince........................... Prelate..............................King.................................Holy One..................................Highest of the Holy

.

From http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tau#Tau_Ranks

'Saal - Cadet. This rank is typically given to Tau as soon as they enter service in the Fire Caste.
'La - The first and lowest true rank of Tau society. A Shas'la would be a standard Fire Warrior, while a Fio'la would be a manual laborer, and a Kor'la a crewman on a ship.
'Ui - The second rank among the Tau. A Shas'ui would be the leader of a squad of Fire Warriors (equivalent to an Imperial Space Marine Sergeant), or a Tau Battlesuit pilot, while a Por'Ui would be a mid-ranking envoy or diplomat.
'Vre - The third Tau rank. A Shas'vre is a Battlesuit team leader or bodyguard, a Fio'vre would be the foreman of a Tau factory, and a Kor'vre a fighter pilot.
'El - The fourth and second highest Tau rank, acknowledged as one of high esteem. Shas'el are Commanders, Kor'el command Tau spacecraft, and a Fio'el would be an engineer.
'O - The highest Tau rank. Kor'o would be the title of a fleet admiral, while Shas'o would be of the highest levels of command and fearsome warriors (usually placed in command of one or more cadres), and an Aun'o is the highest rank of Ethereal, revered by all Tau as the leader of their race.

From Lexicanum:

Provided the warrior survives four years of active duty, he undergoes the first Trial by Fire, which can be anything from mere gladiatorial affairs to trial by constant combat. If the Shas'la survives his first Trial by Fire, he is promoted to the rank of Shas'ui, or Veteran. For every consecutive four years of service, the Fire Warrior undergoes another Trial. The higher one's rank within the Fire Caste, the more likely one is to become a Battlesuit pilot. Upon attaining the rank of "O", a member of the Fire Caste may be allowed to retire from active duty and become an advisor to the Tau military's command structure, the Shas'ar'tol. Other than death, this is the only way to leave the Tau military.

From http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tau#Tau_Ranks:

The Tau are the most open and tolerant of the intelligent races in the Warhammer 40,000 universe. They are the only army that prefers to settle their differences peacefully. They are appreciative of humans, Eldar, and the other sentient races, but hold their own values [not species, not race, not people, VALUES] to be superior to those of others--and they may be right, at least by the standards of our twenty-first century world and certainly by the xenophobic and often corrupt standards of the 41st Millennium's Imperium of Man.

Their tolerance also extends to themselves, as the Tau recognize even lowly Fio'la workers as being as important to the operation and well-being of the Tau Empire as Shas'vre Battlesuit leaders or even the highest Aun'o.

From http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tau#Castes_and_Rank:

The Tau are the most open and tolerant of the races in the galaxy, which means that they prefer not to destroy all other races on sight and are nowhere near as xenophobic as the Imperium. They are appreciative of the ways of the humans, Eldar, and other sentient races, but hold their own values as superior above all others.
Their tolerance also extends to themselves, as the Tau recognize even lowly Fio'la workers as being as important to the operation and well-being of the Empire as Shas'vre Battlesuit leaders or even the highest Aun'o.

I'll be reading Fire Warrior, so I'll see what I can find in it.

Those quotes from the wiki and Lexicanum are both meaningless, since they are gatherings of existing information, not sources themselves.


The wh40k wiki info is null since it is not sourced. Meanwhile, the info you quoted from Lexicanum is [needs citation]

You will need original sources from publications like books.

Dusara - you have to realise that 'la' is not equal across all castes.

Look at the English translations you've found.

Shas'la: "Underling of the Fire Caste"

Aun'la: "Lord of the Ethereal Caste"

An Aun'la outranks a Shas'o, because the Aun is a Lord, while the Shas is a Commander.

The five Castes are subraces divided by social role.

Fire Caste: Soldiers.
Air Caste: Pilots/Ship Crew.
Earth Caste: Engineers/Technicians/Scientists.
Water Caste: Merchants/Diplomats.
Ethereal Caste: Leaders/Politicians.

Ethereals' role in society is leadership and direction. They literally have no other job or reason to exist. In Animal Farm, they're the pigs. Sure, some of them might be Snowball rather than Napoleon, but they're all pigs: they're all in charge.

Dark Eldar Wyches are pretty hot. I bet the accomplished Dark Eldar males might have pretty hot standard of living of debauchery and lust.

Of course they might end up dead from some plot or cheating on some other wych but hey.

I think Dark Eldar lives are too chaotic and uncertain to be considered a high standard. High standards of living include things like stability and confidence.

I think a lot of people here should realise that there is no homogeneous way the "imperium" threats it subjects, at best we can reduce it to planetery level but, though even then it's highly dependent where and in what social class you are born. That said I do agree that the general portrayal of imperial citizenship is one that lacks much of the comforts of modern western nations, but then again most stories set in 40k take place during war time, and I don't know if there ever is a story released about the daily life of an "average" imperial citizen. Either way I'd say ordinary citizen on a civilized world not during war has a life not too diferrent from our own, generally, as long a world pays it's tithe and demonstrates basic devotion to the imperial cult they are free to do whatever they want. Of course on certain types of planets such as forgeworlds or shrine worlds the AdMech and Ecclesiarchy, respectiveley, would have greater over daily life. yet even those types of planets useally have local economies and a developed services sector in order to support dailly life.

Standard of living would probably go to either Eldar or Tau given their high degree of technology. In terms of happiness it would be Orks 100% followed by Tau. In a universe of near constant war the race that is the happiest is the race that loves to fight and doesn't really care much about self preservation. Tau tend to be the most content in their life as they serve the Greater Good and strive towards that goal above all else. Serving the Greater Good gives Tau satisfaction but I don't think it makes them outright happy like fighting does for the Orks.