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Second thread with questions about my Dark Angels army recently, I'll admit but had some issues I wanted to resolve.
Gonna have a Librarian in Terminator Armor lead my Deathwing Strike Force and I'm kinda wondering about which Force Weapon he should have. Obviously the current model only has the Staff but I could get a sword or axe easily enough.
Thing is, I would've picked the Axe in a heartbeat and paired it with a Storm Shield, but DA Libbies don't get Storm Shields... I have other Terminators with Unwieldy weapons and no Storm Shield of course but still, I can't help but wonder if I might be better off with the Force Sword instead.
Also I suppose I might be kinda curious about if I should replace his Storm Bolter, but not AS concerned. That too would require me to find one of the Combis, but if it's a good idea I'll keep an eye out for any I might have spare.

Next up, getting a Ravenwing Command Squad (from the kit in the Battleforce) and kinda wondering about the setup for that. Considering the Apothecary (sidenote: that's the weird, randomly white-armored bloke on the box, right?) and perhaps the Champion (Not totally sure if swapping out Rending for AP3 and an extra point of WS for 5 points is a good idea, but I will say it's potentially quite tempting). Not really sold on the Grenade Launcher, all the ammo options sound crap, but I'm open to the idea that i might be missing something cool about it.

Also got a currently unbuilt Deathwing box that I'm considering making into Knights or a Deathwing Command Squad (and whichever I don't make I'll probably get at a later date). Not sure which to pick or how I'd set up the Command Squad if I made it (aside from getting the Champion, which I'd absolutely do!). If it's a deciding factor, I don't have any Land Raider variants yet.

From a RW player-

Honestly, I prefer to give my lib a force axe, and a conversion field, why? Because on more than one occasion, I've had my lib get force off, charge in/get charged by a scary CC enemy. (Be it a MC, deamon prince, dreadknight, etc) and live to get that auto-death attack off.

Dreadknights will wipe the squad, or at least kill about 4, bar bad rolls. The rest... Depends on what they are, most wont have ID or str10. But that's OK, after all, 3 attacks base is nice and ap means you can reliably kill stuff.

Apothecary- its a must, you swap out your bolt pistol for 5+ fnp. You make ONE FnP save on the command squad and whamo, you just made 10pts back.

Chanpion- if you have 5pts to spare, not a bad option, remember, you are giving him a +1str power sword and ws5. The drawback however is he must always issue/accept challenges. No matter what, which he would usually do anyway to take the hit for the libby.

Knights > DW command squad, but both are great.

Personally, I'm working on making all my DW models command models, look much better, I use the knights body for cloaks/hoods and just apply the normal weapons instead of the shield.

 raiden wrote:
Honestly, I prefer to give my lib a force axe, and a conversion field, why? Because on more than one occasion, I've had my lib get force off, charge in/get charged by a scary CC enemy. (Be it a MC, deamon prince, dreadknight, etc) and live to get that auto-death attack off.

That's cool to know! Actually hadn't thought of the conversion field, might have to look into that (wouldn't know how to model it though).

 raiden wrote:
Dreadknights will wipe the squad, or at least kill about 4, bar bad rolls. The rest... Depends on what they are, most wont have ID or str10. But that's OK, after all, 3 attacks base is nice and ap means you can reliably kill stuff.

Which squad are you talking about here?

 raiden wrote:
Apothecary- its a must, you swap out your bolt pistol for 5+ fnp. You make ONE FnP save on the command squad and whamo, you just made 10pts back.

Chanpion- if you have 5pts to spare, not a bad option, remember, you are giving him a +1str power sword and ws5. The drawback however is he must always issue/accept challenges. No matter what, which he would usually do anyway to take the hit for the libby.

Alright, both sound pretty solid! (No Libby in this squad for Bike Champ to tank for though, Dark Vengeance and Term Libs wouldn't be allowed to join them if I'm not mistaken).

 raiden wrote:
Knights > DW command squad, but both are great.

In that case, would probably make Knights now and a Command Squad with the next box (still would like advice on DWCS setups though).

 raiden wrote:
Personally, I'm working on making all my DW models command models, look much better, I use the knights body for cloaks/hoods and just apply the normal weapons instead of the shield.

Hadn't thought of that, will consider that.

I voted for the Force Staff with RW unless you are running an Hidden Power Fist the Staff can wreck Transports and ID T3 Models most of the time. The Champion can also be a good choice (Now)
With Deathwing An Axe is a good choice, especially if you have the Champion.
An Apothecary is almost an Auto-Take for either

It's a DW Terminator Librarian, to be clear.

Sorry, forgot to look through the rest at first.

 Anpu42 wrote:
The Champion can also be a good choice (Now)

Ravenwing Champion? Yeah, I suppose trading Rending for AP3 and better Weapon Skill is a solid trade.

 Anpu42 wrote:

With Deathwing An Axe is a good choice, especially if you have the Champion.

Makes sense, both would be AP2! Presumably the other guys should stick with Fists or Hammers in that case?

 Anpu42 wrote:

An Apothecary is almost an Auto-Take for either

Alright, I suppose I was worried about Deathwing Doc losing his Fist, would that be a big issue?

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Alright, I suppose I was worried about Deathwing Doc losing his Fist, would that be a big issue?

I have not had an issue with it. With 3 other Power Fist/Chain Fist/Thunder Hammers in the Squad it is not that necessary. The only time it may be an issue is if you go all Lighting Claws.

Axe first. No question. Anything worth using "force" on has higher initiative than you, so skip the sword. Axe gives you added strength and AP2. AP2 makes it better than the Stave.

Axe em!

Anpu42 wrote:I have not had an issue with it. With 3 other Power Fist/Chain Fist/Thunder Hammers in the Squad it is not that necessary. The only time it may be an issue is if you go all Lighting Claws.

Makes sense I suppose, I wasn't planning on Claws in the Command Squad anyway (clashes with the Champ too much).

zgort wrote:Axe first. No question. Anything worth using "force" on has higher initiative than you, so skip the sword. Axe gives you added strength and AP2. AP2 makes it better than the Stave.

Axe em!

Sounds about right, never really would've trusted AP4 even with the highest strength

Kinda surprised at all the votes for the Staff, actually.

4+ armor is alot more prevalent than 2+

That said, you want that ap2 just in case.

I suppose it depends on who your typical opponent is. If you never fight MEQ, a much stronger case could be made for the force stave, but who never fights MEQ? You lucky dog, you

Yeah, honestly while clonking GEQs like a boss might be cool... That really doesn't sound hard and I'm not sure I'd want to relegate my fancy dude to something like that.

Also people mentioned ID against T3 models... Is that really that good? I'm not sure there are that many T3 models with multiple Wounds or FNP (though please correct me if I'm wrong) and if I wanted ID, can't I just pop Force for that? That IS what it's there for and even if I have to generate and cast it, it sounds better than hoping my opponents are incredibly wimpy...


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 zgort wrote:
I suppose it depends on who your typical opponent is. If you never fight MEQ, a much stronger case could be made for the force stave, but who never fights MEQ? You lucky dog, you

The two guys I know I'll fight play Guard (with allied Orks, potentially) and Tyranids. So maybe not heavy-duty MEQ stuff but I'm still not sure I want to screw myself out of fighting the most common type of infantry I'll generally face, nor am I confident they won't have 2+ or 3+ stuff going on (I know IG guy has Bullgryns for one, and I'm pretty sure 'nid guy would want the big fancy beasts considering he has already mentioned wanting the Swarmlord).

Though IG player semi-scolded me for completely dismissing AP4 or worse CCWs entirely earlier on (in the context of the Deathwing Knights from the previous Codex) but I'm still not sold on them. I have to suck it up with Corvus Hammers and Chainswords but I would feel sick to my stomach about picking an AP4 option for someone who could have an AP3 or AP2 option instead.

Also IG player also collect Chaos Space Marines (Nurgle to be specific, he's kinda hung up about the fluff and balked at stuff like giving Plague Marines the Mark of Slaanesh) and 'nids player used to have Tzeentch stuff so I can't say I'll never face MEQs.

That's actually really cool that you have some guard and nids in your group. I feel like I'm always fighting chaos or marines. I can't even blame them, I have DA! Makes me want to start up nids just to shake up some of the games.

EDIT: If you fight guard, instant killing a heavy weapon team or officer could be really helpful. I'm not sure that job would fall to the libby though. Most things tend to get shot by our army anyway, DW and RW knights being the close combat exceptions.

I also realized I forgot question 2 and 3 for your post. 

I have a high opinion of Apothecaries on your expensive black knights. If you make even one 5+ save he has made the upgrade worth it. Consider they are a 1-per-army deal though - so you'll have to choose between a bike, termie, or veteran Apothecary. 

I recommend a Champion now, as their sword is much better than last edition, but more importantly, the model looks awesome 

I also tend to use the grenade launcher. Even though it got quite the nerf, the stasis shell lowers WS and Initiative by 1, perfect for pre-charge, you'll be causing wounds before your enemy can even hit back. 

Lastly, I'd build knights. Terminators tend to do better in close combat, might as well optimize. Rule of cool also applies here. Those storm bolters aren't going to be changing any games for you anyway. That said - a land raider crusader or redeemer fits that unit REALLY nicely. Being able to assault right out of the vehicle is huge.

I could never play 'nids (or Chaos, or Dark Eldar, or Necrons) but I'm certainly considering doing IG later on.

I thought it was one of each Apothecary, since they're all different ones?

Hmmm, I see the point on the Grenade Launcher lowering those things, but does it really help that much? Seems like I'd either be already faster than my foes, or they're so quick they'd go first even if I nerfed them like that.

Certainly see the point about Knights, will get a Command Squad later if I built Knights now. And yeah, sounds like they particularly want a Land Raider variant. Would be a Crusader or Redeemer since apparently the normal one sucks. Would see if I magnetize it so I could switch between the Crusader and Redeemer depending on the game (if not, maybe the Redeemer since the Flamestorm Cannon sounds way better than the Hurricane Bolter). But if I DID build Knights know they'd probably be without a Raider for a while.

I was under the impression it was one apothecary in the whole army. I could be mistaken, I'll check the codex later today.

The launcher helps IMMENSELY for MEQ. Most things have I4, so lowering means you remove models before they hit back. Even a chaos lord is I5, so it makes you go simultaneously. I can't recommend enough for MEQ. It has great synergy with knights, too, then THEY will strike first, which is sooo good.

I suppose you are right about stasis shells being overkill on guard, but you can shoot two blast templates per turn if you use frag rounds. If they neglected to space out, that could cause quite a few wounds. Alternatively, two krak rounds can each instant-kill a heavy weapon team or officer while ignoring armor (s6) from further away than the plasma talon. It has a lot of utility.

I think I'd still try the knights even without the raider. They get T5 while in base to base, and will either survive or at the least be a fantastic fire magnet. If you are able to deep strike them close without giving line of site - they will do terrible terrible things to your opponents.

There are plenty of guides to magnetizing the raider sponson weapons, shouldn't be too crazy to do with very small magnets (most hobby shops carry em). The general consensus is that the crusader tends to be better, but I love the idea of the redeemer myself. With DW knights you'll be getting close anyway...

Good luck out there!

 zgort wrote:
I was under the impression it was one apothecary in the whole army. I could be mistaken, I'll check the codex later today.

Looking at it, it says "One Deathwing Terminator per army can be upgraded..." and "One Ravenwing Black Knight per army can be upgraded...", which suggests that they don't count against each other. Didn't bother looking at the Veteran Squad since I couldn't give a crap about Company Veterans even with a high-strength laxative.

 zgort wrote:
Your friend had a point about dismissing the higher strength a stave gives, lowering your to-wound isn't nothing, especially against high toughness targets like MC, some Nurgle, etc. However, once you get into 3+ and better armor, AP seems to be more valuable.

I suppose so, I will admit I'm still not confident that I'll only be facing bad armor saves.
Not to mention any squad I stick him to will be have either AP2 or AP3 CCWs so unless they're hitting inappropriate targets he'd be failing to pierce the target unit's armor.

 zgort wrote:
The launcher helps IMMENSELY for MEQ. Most things have I4, so lowering means you remove models before they hit back. Even a chaos lord is I5, so it makes you go simultaneously. I can't recommend enough for MEQ. It has great synergy with knights, too, then THEY will strike first, which is sooo good.

All pretty cool, but if I DO face MEQs, that would mean that I'm screwing myself out of Armor penetration because there don't seem to be any AP3 or AP2 grenades.

 zgort wrote:
I suppose you are right about stasis shells being overkill on guard, but you can shoot two blast templates per turn if you use frag rounds. If they neglected to space out, that could cause quite a few wounds. Alternatively, two krak rounds can each instant-kill a heavy weapon team or officer while ignoring armor (s6) from further away than the plasma talon. It has a lot of utility.

Sounds cool, though I have my concerns about the former, since it seems like the Blasts will just go flying away, but I could be just freaking out too much.

 zgort wrote:
I think I'd still try the knights without the raider. They get T5 while in base to base, and will either survive or at the least be a fantastic fire magnet. If you are able to deep strike them close without giving line of site - they will do terrible terrible things to your opponents.

Yeah, I had actually been thinking about this. Since they're 2+/3++ it seems that unless I roll terribly then there are two outcomes, both good:
1) The Knights are still around to kick ass!
2) They put so much fire into ending the Knights that it saved a bunch of other units from getting shot down.
Also, I suppose if I make Knights now, that's more options left over for when I make the Command Squad afterwards.

 zgort wrote:
There are plenty of guides to magnetizing the raider sponson weapons, shouldn't be too crazy to do with very small magnets (most hobby shops carry em). The general consensus is that the crusader tends to be better, but I love the idea of the redeemer myself. With DW knights you'll be getting close anyway...

All sound reasonable to me. Will certainly look those up when I get the kit!

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

All pretty cool, but if I DO face MEQs, that would mean that I'm screwing myself out of Armor penetration because there don't seem to be any AP3 or AP2 grenades.

Sounds cool, though I have my concerns about the former, since it seems like the Blasts will just go flying away, but I could be just freaking out too much.!

I usually use my knights to charge. They get the rapid fire plasma and rending on some of the cc attacks. I usually have a Champion/sgt with a power sword too. The unit has plenty of AP (not to mention regular hammer of wrath attacks), so trading the one talon for the launcher seems like a good trade for hitting first and easier to-hit rolls no matter what you face. If you are not convinced, proxy it with your buddies. See if you like it. Or maybe wait until you have a squad of 6 to include it.

I see your point against guard though. The stasis just isn't necessary. Fair enough.

Blasts are great. 1/3 of the time they are dead on. Even when you do scatter, 58.3% of the time it's within 3 inches (little mathhammer haha). Couple all that with two tries every turn. If you have a scatter die, test it yourself, see if it is reliable enough for you. If the opponent didn't spread out, you could be looking at 3-6 hits from that gun, depending on your luck.

Fair enough on all that, I think I'll take the plunge! Should it be 1 GL per squad, or as many as possible.

And good to know about the Blast chances, also eases up some other things.

1 GL per squad should be fine. I don't think you'll be disappointed

Alright, I'll give it a shot!

Okay, got all the models in now so should be wrapping this up.
Ravenwing seems sorted: Champion, Doc and Grenadier.
And I think I'll suck it up and go for Knights as advised, I'll ask more detailed stuff about the DWCS once I pick up my next Deathwing kit (then I'll be able to give the specific builds I can do and am considering).

Only thing now would be the final decision as to the Term Libby's weapon.
Seems like the Force Sword is out of the running so it's between the Axe and Staff. The poll is leaning towards the Staff but many have singled out the Axe for Terminators and I'll admit that's what I'm leaning to so he'll match the squad's he's attached to better and also an admittedly irrelevant preference for axes (particularly over staffs, which are wimpy weapons for wimpy wizards who don't get the cool ones) but at the same time I'd hate to make a mistake... The pack has a Force Staff but I can change that easily enough (haven't looked in other kits for Power Axes but I could snip the top off the Halberd of Caliban and replace the Staff's top with that easily enough and hell if I somehow SHOULD go for a Force Sword, I've got plenty of unused swords!). Seems to be no issues about his gun though. Nobody said anything about replacing the sprue's Storm Bolter or suggested a Combi so I think I'll stick with the SB.