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I still think the whole "secrecy" thing is really hurting them. In today's world, a lot of people are impulse buyers. "Oh look a new video game. I wonder if GW will release something I want in the coming weeks/months, Do I save my money and hope? Or do I just buy said video game?" I think a good portion of people go for the impulse purchase. I get that people copy their designs, but I have very rarely seen anyone even bother with the knock offs. Let's face it, GW makes some of the best minis out there and the "competition" isn't up to snuff. Oh well. Maybe someday they'll go back to giving us some notice. Would certainly make budgeting for the hobby easier...
boyd wrote: The $4.5MM extraordinary expense was due to the website and restructuring costs. I believe the website was about $1.0MM. The other $3.5MM was due to the lease buy outs (not sure how many locations but I thought at one point people were saying close to 100 locations closed throughout the world due to their restructure - I didn't see a specific number though), closing several of the country's sales HQ offices, and severance to employees.
They said in the last financial report that the website cost 4 million pounds. Can't remember for sure, but that cost may have been split over two reporting periods.
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Nocturnus wrote: I think a good portion of people go for the impulse purchase.
That's exactly what GW are counting on by not giving advance warning.
The problem is just that most of what GW are offering is priced outside 'impulse' range for a lot of people. And it doesn't help those people who want to know when their army is going to get something new.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/28 23:50:07
Azreal13 wrote: The industry didn't stay flat, it grew. You're trying to argue that GW managed to tread water in what isn't even their biggest territory historically by making a comparison to the sector but that's just fluffing. The reality is GW is competing against the whole of the tabletop gaming market, just like every other wargaming manufacturer. GW's competition isn't solely other wargames companies, it's everything else in the market which will typically attract the same sort of customer. Granted, some will be closer competition than others but I'm sure there's plenty of people posting here which also spend money on other items you'll typically find in your typical hobby shop that you're trying to exclude, be it CCGs, board games or even comics.
That wargaming stayed flat in a growing tabletop gaming market is a failure of the wargaming companies, including GW, to capitalise on the increased interest and spending on related products. Don't try and paint it as some sort of success on their part because they haven't failed worse than their counterparts.
Although personally I think that a lot of money has gone into wargaming through KS which won't have shown up on the ICV report and definitely won't have made it into GW's pockets.
I'm comparing GW with its direct competitors, which doesn't include Magic cards, scale models, roleplaying games, or board games. I'm not comparing GW to "everything sold in a hobby or gaming store".
Privateer Press, Mantic, Games Workshop, Infinty -- none of these companies have "failed". GW (and presumably others) have made money doing something that they are good at, keep people employed, and sell products that people want. That's a success.
Also, by any measure, GW's Dec 2014 - June 2015 is a success:
- GW performed very well in order to offset the first half of lower performance. - They made more money than they did in the last half-year of the same period. - Their stock price got a bump. - They paid out nice dividends to shareholders. - They ended the year with a nice pile of cash. - They did a bunch of work on Warhammer World and made it what they want to make it - They released a brand new faction (Adeptus Mechanicus) that people have been asking for, for decades
You might not like them as a company; you may not like their prices and release schedules, or products. But they can be proud that they did pretty good in the last 6 months, and obviously, enough people like their products that they stay both profitable and relevant. So the real question is -- can they keep it up?
In 6 months, 12 months, 24 months from now, either this will be a momentary reprieve in a downtrend, this will mark some stabilization in their revenue as they find a new equilibrium, or a bunch of people will be wrong, and Age of Sigmar will mark the beginning of a Fantasy resurgence for GW.
Neither we, nor Games Workshop know the answer to that (and if we did, we'd be buying or selling GW stock!) -- but it's pretty clear they aren't going anywhere any time soon, and they'll do the same thing and annoy the same people each week.
Tip: This week, the shooty guys will be expensive. Next week, the paladins and terrain pieces will be expensive. The week after that, the chaos stuff will be expensive. Then some limited edition book. And on and on. And some people will save up and buy stuff, even so, while others will buy stuff, and think, "This is cheap!" Same deal when FW hits the shelves.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/29 00:04:06
A hike in minimum wage wouldn't get past a salary freeze. Salary workers by definition do not make an hourly wage.
In the US at least even the one man store guys wouldn't be affected. I'm pretty sure their job title is manager; that makes them except employees. All they can hope for is the Department of Labor is supposed to be reclassifying what count's as the minimum salary for exemption. Then GW would have to raise their salary to match the new exempt minimum, or they would be entitled to overtime and minimum wage.
Nocturnus wrote: I think a good portion of people go for the impulse purchase.
That's exactly what GW are counting on by not giving advance warning.
The problem is just that most of what GW are offering is priced outside 'impulse' range for a lot of people. And it doesn't help those people who want to know when their army is going to get something new.
Not quite. Not publishing complete rules "forces" some fans to buy stuff "just in case" it's good. For instance, a lot of people bought all the AdMech releases in my area (insane amounts!) without knowing how good it would be in the context of the codex, "in case" that would be a great unit, and it'd be sold out after. Likewise with Assault Marines and Devastators. Nobody knew if ASM would be even usable in the new codex, "but what the heck, it might be good, so I better buy 2 in case" is an attitude you see frequently.
I'm not saying it's rational or anything, but I've done it myself on occasion.
Plus, there is a certain mystique to the "distant rumor - near rumor - news - release - gloating" cycle that's kinda fun. There is literally nothing else I'm interested in that captures me with the rumor cycle like GW/40k.
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CaulynDarr wrote: A hike in minimum wage wouldn't get past a salary freeze. Salary workers by definition do not make an hourly wage.
In the US at least even the one man store guys wouldn't be affected. I'm pretty sure their job title is manager; that makes them except employees. All they can hope for is the Department of Labor is supposed to be reclassifying what count's as the minimum salary for exemption. Then GW would have to raise their salary to match the new exempt minimum, or they would be entitled to overtime and minimum wage.
Salaried workers are still limited by the maximum number of employable non-overtime hours. You can't make someone work for $5 an hour by making them work 10 hours a day and 7 days a week, paying them a salary of $1500 a month. I don't believe that's legal in any state (it certainly isn't in Canada, nor Washington State or California). The only case in which this is permissible is where a person has a reasonable expectation of earning commissions or tips that would allow the total earnings to exceed minimum wage for the hours worked.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/29 00:12:58
Azreal13 wrote: The industry didn't stay flat, it grew. You're trying to argue that GW managed to tread water in what isn't even their biggest territory historically by making a comparison to the sector but that's just fluffing. The reality is GW is competing against the whole of the tabletop gaming market, just like every other wargaming manufacturer. GW's competition isn't solely other wargames companies, it's everything else in the market which will typically attract the same sort of customer. Granted, some will be closer competition than others but I'm sure there's plenty of people posting here which also spend money on other items you'll typically find in your typical hobby shop that you're trying to exclude, be it CCGs, board games or even comics.
That wargaming stayed flat in a growing tabletop gaming market is a failure of the wargaming companies, including GW, to capitalise on the increased interest and spending on related products. Don't try and paint it as some sort of success on their part because they haven't failed worse than their counterparts.
Although personally I think that a lot of money has gone into wargaming through KS which won't have shown up on the ICV report and definitely won't have made it into GW's pockets.
I'm comparing GW with its direct competitors, which doesn't include Magic cards, scale models, roleplaying games, or board games. I'm not comparing GW to "everything sold in a hobby or gaming store".
Ok, so it's a thought exercise rather than anything with any meaningful commercial validity. Gotcha.
Spoiler:
Privateer Press, Mantic, Games Workshop, Infinty -- none of these companies have "failed". GW (and presumably others) have made money doing something that they are good at, keep people employed, and sell products that people want. That's a success.
Also, by any measure, GW's Dec 2014 - June 2015 is a success:
- GW performed very well in order to offset the first half of lower performance.
- They made more money than they did in the last half-year of the same period.
- Their stock price got a bump.
- They paid out nice dividends to shareholders.
- They ended the year with a nice pile of cash.
- They did a bunch of work on Warhammer World and made it what they want to make it
- They released a brand new faction (Adeptus Mechanicus) that people have been asking for, for decades
You might not like them as a company; you may not like their prices and release schedules, or products. But they can be proud that they did pretty good in the last 6 months, and obviously, enough people like their products that they stay both profitable and relevant. So the real question is -- can they keep it up?
In 6 months, 12 months, 24 months from now, either this will be a momentary reprieve in a downtrend, this will mark some stabilization in their revenue as they find a new equilibrium, or a bunch of people will be wrong, and Age of Sigmar will mark the beginning of a Fantasy resurgence for GW.
Neither we, nor Games Workshop know the answer to that (and if we did, we'd be buying or selling GW stock!) -- but it's pretty clear they aren't going anywhere any time soon, and they'll do the same thing and annoy the same people each week.
Tip: This week, the shooty guys will be expensive. Next week, the paladins and terrain pieces will be expensive. The week after that, the chaos stuff will be expensive. Then some limited edition book. And on and on. And some people will save up and buy stuff, even so, while others will buy stuff, and think, "This is cheap!" Same deal when FW hits the shelves
.
All those pretty bullet points to argue a point I didn't make.
If the tabletop game market grew, and the wargaming market remained constant (all of which is based on one, slightly dubious, source, a source which, were it not to support the point you're trying to make, I'm sure you'd be amongst the first to point out) then the companies in the wargaming sector failed to capitalise on that growth.
This is not saying they are failures, this is saying that they failed to do something. This includes GW, who also didn't grow, while those around them did. Which logically suggests that the money GW aren't getting is going to other wargame companies, but nobody is drawing in new blood.
So unless you're going to try and seriously argue that CCGs and boardgames aren't competing for the same cash from a notable percentage of the wargame buying public, this means they did not capitalise on this growth. Not just GW but all wargaming companies.
This could, of course, be down to the fact that the new GW store format seems counterproductive in terms of recruitment, so it could be that what was the historically most significant driver of new blood into the hobby isn't doing its job.
You can set your own criteria to try and make your point if you like, but you're arguing based on a very narrow view of the market which isn't accounting for various other possibilities in terms of income that simply doesn't show up on a traditional distributors accounts.
CaulynDarr wrote: A hike in minimum wage wouldn't get past a salary freeze. Salary workers by definition do not make an hourly wage.
In the US at least even the one man store guys wouldn't be affected. I'm pretty sure their job title is manager; that makes them except employees. All they can hope for is the Department of Labor is supposed to be reclassifying what count's as the minimum salary for exemption. Then GW would have to raise their salary to match the new exempt minimum, or they would be entitled to overtime and minimum wage.
Salaried workers are still limited by the maximum number of employable non-overtime hours. You can't make someone work for $5 an hour by making them work 10 hours a day and 7 days a week, paying them a salary of $1500 a month. I don't believe that's legal in any state (it certainly isn't in Canada, nor Washington State or California). The only case in which this is permissible is where a person has a reasonable expectation of earning commissions or tips that would allow the total earnings to exceed minimum wage for the hours worked.
You know that the UK isn't a "state" right?
Our employment laws are different over here, some of which certainly need tightening up, but it is possible for a doctor to barely earn over minimum wage and to employ someone without guaranteeing to pay them anything on a week to week basis.
I'm not totally sure what the implications of the living wage directives will be (I suspect not many do at this precise point in time) but don't make assumptions based on your local laws in regard to the UK
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/29 00:58:40
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
CaulynDarr wrote: A hike in minimum wage wouldn't get past a salary freeze. Salary workers by definition do not make an hourly wage.
In the US at least even the one man store guys wouldn't be affected. I'm pretty sure their job title is manager; that makes them except employees. All they can hope for is the Department of Labor is supposed to be reclassifying what count's as the minimum salary for exemption. Then GW would have to raise their salary to match the new exempt minimum, or they would be entitled to overtime and minimum wage.
Salaried workers are still limited by the maximum number of employable non-overtime hours. You can't make someone work for $5 an hour by making them work 10 hours a day and 7 days a week, paying them a salary of $1500 a month. I don't believe that's legal in any state (it certainly isn't in Canada, nor Washington State or California). The only case in which this is permissible is where a person has a reasonable expectation of earning commissions or tips that would allow the total earnings to exceed minimum wage for the hours worked.
In the US, actually you can. If you call them a manager and pay them at least 24K a year. It's the white collar exemption. It was originally meant to cover guys who wear ties, so they didn't fall into the same overtime requirements of hourly wage earners. It's assumed that their compensation is more tied to the performance of the company and it's to be expected that they work whatever hours make sense for the job.
The problem is they haven't adjusted the exception cutoff for inflation in like 60 years. Companies have caught on to this in the last few years and have been giving manager titles to people who aren't really the types of managers intended by the laws. For instance shift managers at a fast food restaurant. They are often expected to work such hours that their effective rate puts them under that of the minimum wage workers they "manage".
The department of labor in the US is currently considering updating the exemption level to match the last few decades of inflation because of this. Something closer to 50K annually.
The way I see it comes down to the numbers and that despite everything GW still has a sales decline of 4.369 million pounds, this on top of the 11.096 million plus pounds the previous year.
Overall this is a sales decline over the last two years of over still equates to 15.465 million pounds.
"Ultramarines are Wusses".... Chapter Master Achaylus Bonecrusher
GW is still shrinking, and the management is doing it on purpose. If you offer a 52 pence per share dividend on a 38.3 pence per share earning, you are making a crystal clear statement that you do not think your company is worth investing in, and that the money that people have already invested in your company is better used elsewhere.
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
I found the numbers of independent stockists and the amount of revenue they generate for GW to be really shocking. Even if you double the number so you can talk about things at full MSRP, it takes many trade acounts to bring in the same money as the average GW store.
Cash and cash equivalents 2015: 12,561 2014: 17,550
When your pile of cash shrinks by 5 million pounds, it's probably not the type of thing you point to as "nice."
Why did it shrink? Dividend payments outstripping earnings. Again.
"Dividends of 52 pence per share were paid during the year"
Earnings per share during that same period? 38.3p.
They're paying out 135% of what they are earning. GW says they are only returning truly surplus cash. Hah! More like looting the company's future to pay to keep the share price afloat.
Just imagine if GW had kept to a sane dividend policy of paying out 30-40% of earnings an invested the remainder in product development, marketing, or anything that might help them actually return to growth. They have a wage freeze for their employees just so they can scrape a bit more to pay out as dividends. Year over year they continue to stagnate.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/07/29 04:03:43
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
I suppose when you aren't spending millions in court trying to convince people you invented the Roman numerals, arrows, skulls and the grenade launchers it has a positive effect on your balance sheet! HA!
Talys wrote: Neither we, nor Games Workshop know the answer to that (and if we did, we'd be buying or selling GW stock!) -- but it's pretty clear they aren't going anywhere any time soon, and they'll do the same thing and annoy the same people each week.
Tip: This week, the shooty guys will be expensive. Next week, the paladins and terrain pieces will be expensive. The week after that, the chaos stuff will be expensive. Then some limited edition book. And on and on.
This is one of the most depressingly true (depending on your perspective) posts I've read in a while. I think I have PTSD now. Is there like a mini buyer's support group yet?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/29 18:57:51
The fact that the game costs ~$300 minimum to get into is a definite barrier to entry, and until they address that, Games Workshop will always be a premium product that has no place in toy stores. They say they want to address the fandom at large, but then only make the game affordable to the few. Meanwhile, other games have a cost of entry at a fraction of what Warhammer costs to get into. The old Battleforces used to be a good start, but they should take it a step further and include all of the rules required to run said units.
On the "redesigning lines", I think we may be seeing some of that already. I've noticed that in the Adeptus Mechanicus books (and the Sigmarite army list) there are no named characters for the armies. I suspect in future books we will be seeing less and less "named" characters and existing named characters to be dropped as selectable models; they'll remain in the fluff, but since someone is likely to only buy *1* copy, they'll slowly be dropped out as playable options.
My take away... GWs profits are up because they've shifted a large number of products to being only available from their webstore where they get a larger margin. Those sales effectively rob the sales from retail outlets... They don't seem to understand that as their strategy for growth is to sell more through retailers.
Stormonu wrote: On the "redesigning lines", I think we may be seeing some of that already. I've noticed that in the Adeptus Mechanicus books (and the Sigmarite army list) there are no named characters for the armies. I suspect in future books we will be seeing less and less "named" characters and existing named characters to be dropped as selectable models; they'll remain in the fluff, but since someone is likely to only buy *1* copy, they'll slowly be dropped out as playable options.
I think that's more to do with dropping 'Fine'cast than a part of the design philosophy.
I suspect that from here on out, named characters will only be included in a codex where there is an existing model that they still have remaining stock of, or where they can produce a plastic replacement. AM didn't get a named character because they're a brand new army (so no existing character models) and their budget went on producing as many plastic unit kits as possible. We'll likely see a special character or two sooner or later... either when the codex gets re-done, or when they release new models under whatever system eventually replaces the codexes.
Considering the sheer amount of models and books released so far this year (with no sign of slowing down if AoS is any indication) these numbers are embarrassing.
GW: "We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants"
Stormonu wrote: On the "redesigning lines", I think we may be seeing some of that already. I've noticed that in the Adeptus Mechanicus books (and the Sigmarite army list) there are no named characters for the armies. I suspect in future books we will be seeing less and less "named" characters and existing named characters to be dropped as selectable models; they'll remain in the fluff, but since someone is likely to only buy *1* copy, they'll slowly be dropped out as playable options.
I think that's more to do with dropping 'Fine'cast than a part of the design philosophy.
I suspect that from here on out, named characters will only be included in a codex where there is an existing model that they still have remaining stock of, or where they can produce a plastic replacement. AM didn't get a named character because they're a brand new army (so no existing character models) and their budget went on producing as many plastic unit kits as possible. We'll likely see a special character or two sooner or later... either when the codex gets re-done, or when they release new models under whatever system eventually replaces the codexes.
I think the last infantry-sized named character that popped in plastic was Karlaen. There was Grimnar last year, but he had the sleigh and reindeers. Nork was last year, too (but slightly bigger); and Sanguinary Priest is as close to Corbulo as it's ever going to get. Oh yeah, and the chaos guy out of the DV box.
To the point of design philosophy: I really like the idea of upgrade kits that essentially give you the extra parts to model whomever you want, in combination with standard kits. I wish this would become the norm. I would gladly pay between $15 - $50 for a sprue that gave me various bits to model all the special characters in a single package. The variation depends on how many of the special characters I can squeeze out of the upgrade box -- basically $15 for a small sprue, $30 for a single standard frame, $50 for 2 standard frames would be what I'd have in mind.
Them everyone could just buy that, add it to whatever standard pieces, and be done with all their characters!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/29 05:36:06
Stormonu wrote: On the "redesigning lines", I think we may be seeing some of that already. I've noticed that in the Adeptus Mechanicus books (and the Sigmarite army list) there are no named characters for the armies. I suspect in future books we will be seeing less and less "named" characters and existing named characters to be dropped as selectable models; they'll remain in the fluff, but since someone is likely to only buy *1* copy, they'll slowly be dropped out as playable options.
I think that's more to do with dropping 'Fine'cast than a part of the design philosophy.
I suspect that from here on out, named characters will only be included in a codex where there is an existing model that they still have remaining stock of, or where they can produce a plastic replacement. AM didn't get a named character because they're a brand new army (so no existing character models) and their budget went on producing as many plastic unit kits as possible. We'll likely see a special character or two sooner or later... either when the codex gets re-done, or when they release new models under whatever system eventually replaces the codexes.
I think the last infantry-sized named character that popped in plastic was Karlaen. There was Grimnar last year, but he had the sleigh and reindeers. Nork was last year, too (but slightly bigger); and Sanguinary Priest is as close to Corbulo as it's ever going to get.
To the point of design philosophy: I really like the idea of upgrade kits that essentially give you the extra parts to model whomever you want, in combination with standard kits. I wish this would become the norm. I would gladly pay between $15 - $50 for a sprue that gave me various bits to model all the special characters in a single package. The variation depends on how many of the special characters I can squeeze out of the upgrade box -- basically $15 for a small sprue, $30 for a single standard frame, $50 for 2 standard frames would be what I'd have in mind.
Them everyone could just buy that, add it to whatever standard pieces, and be done with all their characters!
When we talk about characters, we're talking dudes you can't make from regular kits, Astorath, Dante, Mephiston, stuff like that which is *definitely* more stand out than the regular rank and file type kits.
One might even argue that the SM Captain kit (the multi part one) is more rank and file than any SC.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/29 05:37:43
PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote: When we talk about characters, we're talking dudes you can't make from regular kits, Astorath, Dante, Mephiston, stuff like that which is *definitely* more stand out than the regular rank and file type kits.
One might even argue that the SM Captain kit (the multi part one) is more rank and file than any SC.
Yeah, for sure.
But a lot of these are buildable (like Dante, Sanguinius, Corbulo); a few aren't, really -- like Astorath, Mephiston. But I mean, Mephiston is so ugly. It's like conquering the Blood Rage hit him with the fugly stick (I'm talking about the gorgeous Calistarius model out of Space Hulk, which is a young Mephiston before he became Chief Librarian).
But what I was asking for is a kit -- up to $50 -- that has all the special parts that you need to build ALL the special named characters, in combination with parts from standard kits. So two of the scroll float thingies, for instance, for Blood angels (for Astorath and Sanguinius), any special weapons, any unique heads, torso fronts, et cetera.
People would *easily* pony up the $50 (look how people went nuts on the $15 upgrade sprues).
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H.B.M.C. wrote: If you don't think GW is in competition with Magic then you don't really understand the hobby we're in.
I disagree. There are plenty of wargamers with no interest in CCGs and vice versa.
CCG and miniature wargames are hobbies, they're often sold in the same stores, and in some cases they compete for dollars -- but they not the same hobby, and they aren't *direct* competition. If someone isn't happy with AoS, their first thought probably isn't going to be, "gee, maybe I should play Magic instead".
Of course there's crossover. But there are with video games too -- I bet most 40k players have bought a video game in the last year. Someone might think, "Do I buy an Xbox or do I buy AdMech?" But that doesn't put them in competition with each other.
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H.B.M.C. wrote:If you don't think GW is in competition with Magic then you don't really understand the hobby we're in.
Exactly, I see people all the time in my LGS admiring the GW kits, then they look at the price, and I kid you not hear them say along the lines of "That's *way* too much to be asking for that, think i'll just spend this $50 on the new Magic set."
Talys wrote:
PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote: When we talk about characters, we're talking dudes you can't make from regular kits, Astorath, Dante, Mephiston, stuff like that which is *definitely* more stand out than the regular rank and file type kits.
One might even argue that the SM Captain kit (the multi part one) is more rank and file than any SC.
Yeah, for sure.
But a lot of these are buildable (like Dante, Sanguinius, Corbulo); a few aren't, really -- like Astorath, Mephiston. But I mean, Mephiston is so ugly. It's like conquering the Blood Rage hit him with the fugly stick (I'm talking about the gorgeous Calistarius model out of Space Hulk, which is a young Mephiston before he became Chief Librarian).
But what I was asking for is a kit -- up to $50 -- that has all the special parts that you need to build ALL the special named characters, in combination with parts from standard kits. So two of the scroll float thingies, for instance, for Blood angels (for Astorath and Sanguinius), any special weapons, any unique heads, torso fronts, et cetera.
People would *easily* pony up the $50 (look how people went nuts on the $15 upgrade sprues).
Ehh, in what universe does the SG kit make a half-decent Dante? No hand-mounted Infernus Pistol, no one-handed axe (the two handed one is too big, the blade just looks ridiculous in one hand) And no Jump pack with the three jets mounted in each booster. Plus, the armor isn't as finely sculpted as Dante's. (The plastic kit is only 5 years old, and the reprints are showing the signs of degredation)
Astorath's Armor is entirely made of that sinew-like armor. (I'm guessing a special Artificer suit)
The Sanguinor... He's unique, his armor is as finely detailed as Dante's, but you can't get that pose from the SG kit.
And the reason that $15 upgrade sprue sold like hotcakes is because people finally didn't have to shell out $30 for a crappy monopose Sanguinary Priest.
Also, more BA bits for the new SM kits are nice to have, so of course people bought a crap ton of them.
H.B.M.C. wrote: If you don't think GW is in competition with Magic then you don't really understand the hobby we're in.
In competition for our money, yes.
But if we use that metric then GW is in competition with Super Markets and Petrol Stations as well then.
If you want hobby/luxury funds only, then GW and Magic are still two very different beasts.
I have dabbled in Magic in my experimental college days (sad but true that I wasted some of my youthful experimentation on that) but the collectible and cyclical nature, as well as the incredible turnover of boosters, soured me in short order.
A few years after that GW and other tabletop games let me build, paint and play (3 things I enjoy in different measures) miniatures that I will be able to use, at least in the majority, for years.
I built my marines as Deathwatch coz I think they are cool (and I can use them as proxies for any imperial marine army, yeah i'm a tight ass) and while I haven't played more than 2 games of 6th and absolutely no games of 7th I still build build up my force because eventually I will get back to playing them and even if they rejig the rules I am confident I will find uses for the models, even if some are less/more awesome than they were before.
...where was I going with this? Oh yeah, they are both hobbies but their formats attract people for different reasons.
I would put Magic in the middle of a sliding scale where PP/Mantic/Infinity are at 10 and Food is at 1 for relative competitively.
H.B.M.C. wrote: If you don't think GW is in competition with Magic then you don't really understand the hobby we're in.
In competition for our money, yes.
But if we use that metric then GW is in competition with Super Markets and Petrol Stations as well then.
If you want hobby/luxury funds only, then GW and Magic are still two very different beasts.
I have dabbled in Magic in my experimental college days (sad but true that I wasted some of my youthful experimentation on that) but the collectible and cyclical nature, as well as the incredible turnover of boosters, soured me in short order.
A few years after that GW and other tabletop games let me build, paint and play (3 things I enjoy in different measures) miniatures that I will be able to use, at least in the majority, for years.
I built my marines as Deathwatch coz I think they are cool (and I can use them as proxies for any imperial marine army, yeah i'm a tight ass) and while I haven't played more than 2 games of 6th and absolutely no games of 7th I still build build up my force because eventually I will get back to playing them and even if they rejig the rules I am confident I will find uses for the models, even if some are less/more awesome than they were before.
...where was I going with this? Oh yeah, they are both hobbies but their formats attract people for different reasons.
I would put Magic in the middle of a sliding scale where PP/Mantic/Infinity are at 10 and Food is at 1 for relative competitively.
Cyclical nature, yeah, for Standard format. You do realize there are Eternal formats, like Legacy and Vintage where cards never rotate, right? So cards from alpha (if they're not banned) can be used alongside new cards, in fact, many new deck architypes are responsible for old cards rising in price. There's also the relatively new Modern format, which is all boosters 8th edition and forward. To, saying the rotation cycle keeps you out of MTG is a cop out because there are multiple formats to choose from, sure, you can play standard, or take some older cards, add them to your old standard deck at rotation, and play modern, go back even further and play Legacy. Etc. There's also Draft, sealed, pauper (commons only) Elder Dragon highlander.
MTG is vast and diverse in the ways you can play the game. Saying standard is the reason you don't play is a non-answer, like I said, a cop out.
MTG directly competes with other games in the LGS. People often ask what more people turn up to play more often, the answer is Magic. Magic beats Wargaming in terms of hobby funds almost all the time. Like I said above, I hear different people come in *all the time* and say they like the 40K models, etc, but it's too much money to get into. $300 might get you a small, 1000 point force, but that same $300 could also buy you a competitive entry deck in Legacy or Modern. Nothing too off the wall, something like a burn deck, it'll get you your fetches, and the pricey bits you need to play competitively. I built a Legacy Burn deck for $200 and Burn is still a top tier competitive deck. If 40K had lower entry points, then it'd sell better (or maybe just a few price drops altogether)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/29 06:26:21
The industry didn't stay flat, it grew. You're trying to argue that GW managed to tread water in what isn't even their biggest territory historically by making a comparison to the sector but that's just fluffing. The reality is GW is competing against the whole of the tabletop gaming market, just like every other wargaming manufacturer. GW's competition isn't solely other wargames companies, it's everything else in the market which will typically attract the same sort of customer. Granted, some will be closer competition than others but I'm sure there's plenty of people posting here which also spend money on other items you'll typically find in your typical hobby shop that you're trying to exclude, be it CCGs, board games or even comics.
That wargaming stayed flat in a growing tabletop gaming market is a failure of the wargaming companies, including GW, to capitalise on the increased interest and spending on related products. Don't try and paint it as some sort of success on their part because they haven't failed worse than their counterparts.
Although personally I think that a lot of money has gone into wargaming through KS which won't have shown up on the ICV report and definitely won't have made it into GW's pockets.
If you are going off the ICV2 statement that the North American retail miniature market was flat then GW didn't tread water in North America, it grew.
North American Trade:
2014: 16,498K GBP
2015: 17,740K GBP
North American independent trade grew 7.5% in a supposedly flat market. Given SW: Armada and D&D Attack Wing also showed up this year, for the losses to even out some companies are definitely hurting. 40k dominates North American sales, so the AdMech and Harelquins armies probably helped with that boost.
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