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TBM wrote:
Yeah for that price on that same website I can get 20 bloodletters, and a Daemon Prince/Herald on Juggernaut. Which I can play AoS with, and play 40k with as well (and Fantasy technically), the more stable, balanced (compared to AoS) and popular game.

This part about daemons is the only thing I can agree with. Or the one about battalion.

TBM wrote:
With ten sigmarines what have you got really. Stiff marine knockoffs only usable in AoS who all look like eight foot tall, 4 ft wide in the chest steroidal human males. Which isn't what they're supposed to be. They're supposed to be males and females of every race. Space Marines are hulks because their power comes from their muscles and skeleton. These Sigmarines gain power from celestial energy. So why again are they all so bulky? They fail at communicating visually. By looks they appear to be just hulking animated suits of armour all in the same pose. That's it.

Sure I guess you could proxy them for marines, but then again you could just proxy marines for eternals by that same logic.

Here is where you do something extremely stupid imho - you let yourself think that personal, subjective dislike towards the looks of the Stormcast models is any kind of an argument against that army.

People may want to buy them. People may like their aesthetics.

If you don't like them, that's cool, but don't act like they're objectively not worth their price because they don't float your goat.

Also, couple points:
- I don't remember reading that Stormcasts also accept women nor other races - only read about human males, but feel free to prove me wrong;
- And they have been reforged to superhuman size, so their bulky posture makes a bit of sense in that regard. Instead of steroids they used magic to strengthen them.
- They fail at communicating visually with you. Personal opinion, not a fact.
- You can proxy each other if you convert them appropriately, but Eternals are much bigger (like true scale marines).
- As it was mentioned - 5 model elite/big infantry kits were priced at 50$ for a long time. Compare them to terminators in size.

TBM wrote:
With ten sigmarines what have you got really. Stiff marine knockoffs only usable in AoS who all look like eight foot tall, 4 ft wide in the chest steroidal human males. Which isn't what they're supposed to be. They're supposed to be males and females of every race. Space Marines are hulks because their power comes from their muscles and skeleton. These Sigmarines gain power from celestial energy. So why again are they all so bulky? They fail at communicating visually. By looks they appear to be just hulking animated suits of armour all in the same pose. That's it.

Sure I guess you could proxy them for marines, but then again you could just proxy marines for eternals by that same logic.

Here is where you do something extremely stupid imho - you let yourself think that personal, subjective dislike towards the looks of the Stormcast models is any kind of an argument against that army.

You're confusing cause and effect. Reasons cause dislike. Dislike does not cause reasons. Calling other posts "stupid" erases your credibility as anything but a frustrated fanboy.

Very little of what I said is subjective. They all have the figures and proportions of eight foot tall, 4 ft wide in the chest steroidal human males in armour. That is objective observation and fact. This therefore does not visually communicate the aspects of their background that were aforementioned. That is not opinion.

The point about space marines having a practical reason to be so bulky in their story and the sigmarines not, is again, fact.

They are all in a mono pose with only slight variations. This is fact.

There are no indicators that there are people in there by the model's visuals. Again fact.

People may want to buy them. People may like their aesthetics.

Some people with a real hard on for sigmarines will buy them. It's still poor design.

If you don't like them, that's cool, but don't act like they're objectively not worth their price because they don't float your goat.

The are objectively not worth the price to anyone who is looking for value for money, looking for good visual communication and is anyone who's approaching AoS without a raging boner for sigmarines and can stand to collect a different army. They objectively have vary little design variation across the range. They don't "float my goat" because they're objectively not worth the price. Again, keep your cause and effect in the right order.

Also, couple points:
- I don't remember reading that Stormcasts also accept women nor other races - only read about human males, but feel free to prove me wrong;

According to Josh Reynolds (black library writer for these new AoS novels) the Eternals were not all human men, and were forged out of all mortals Sigmar found.http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Age_of_sigmar#Stormcast_Eternals

- And they have been reforged to superhuman size, so their bulky posture makes a bit of sense in that regard. Instead of steroids they used magic to strengthen them.

They're imbued with divine power and celestial energy from a god. They're demigods. Remaking them all to look like near identical massive human males serves no practical, loses the visual information that they're from disparate races, cultures and genders.

- They fail at communicating visually with you. Personal opinion, not a fact.

No, it is fact. You repeat "opinion" in place of counter arguments because your arguments are pretty weak.

" You can proxy each other if you convert them appropriately, but Eternals are much bigger (like true scale marines)".

You don't need miniatures to play the game to begin with, so no you don't.

- As it was mentioned - 5 model elite/big infantry kits were priced at 50$ for a long time. Compare them to terminators in size.

- Terminators are more detailed and multi-posed with dynamic poses. And they can be used in the stablemore popular,40k. But terminators are also overpriced. So what's your point? That another overpriced troop makes this one OK?

TBM wrote:

TBM wrote:
With ten sigmarines what have you got really. Stiff marine knockoffs only usable in AoS who all look like eight foot tall, 4 ft wide in the chest steroidal human males. Which isn't what they're supposed to be. They're supposed to be males and females of every race. Space Marines are hulks because their power comes from their muscles and skeleton. These Sigmarines gain power from celestial energy. So why again are they all so bulky? They fail at communicating visually. By looks they appear to be just hulking animated suits of armour all in the same pose. That's it.

Sure I guess you could proxy them for marines, but then again you could just proxy marines for eternals by that same logic.

Here is where you do something extremely stupid imho - you let yourself think that personal, subjective dislike towards the looks of the Stormcast models is any kind of an argument against that army.

You're confusing cause and effect. Reasons cause dislike. Dislike does not cause reasons. Calling other posts "stupid" erases your credibility as anything but a frustrated fanboy.

Very little of what I said is subjective. They all have the figures and proportions of eight foot tall, 4 ft wide in the chest steroidal human males in armour. That is objective observation and fact. This therefore does not visually communicate the aspects of their background that were aforementioned. That is not opinion.

The point about space marines having a practical reason to be so bulky in their story and the sigmarines not, is again, fact.

They are all in a mono pose with only slight variations. This is fact.

There are no indicators that there are people in there by the model's visuals. Again fact.

People may want to buy them. People may like their aesthetics.

Some people with a real hard on for sigmarines will buy them. It's still poor design.

If you don't like them, that's cool, but don't act like they're objectively not worth their price because they don't float your goat.

The are objectively not worth the price to anyone who is looking for value for money, looking for good visual communication and is anyone who's approaching AoS without a raging boner for sigmarines and can stand to collect a different army. They objectively have vary little design variation across the range. They don't "float my goat" because they're objectively not worth the price. Again, keep your cause and effect in the right order.

Also, couple points:
- I don't remember reading that Stormcasts also accept women nor other races - only read about human males, but feel free to prove me wrong;

According to Josh Reynolds (black library writer for these new AoS novels) the Eternals were not all human men, and were forged out of all mortals Sigmar found.http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Age_of_sigmar#Stormcast_Eternals

- And they have been reforged to superhuman size, so their bulky posture makes a bit of sense in that regard. Instead of steroids they used magic to strengthen them.

They're imbued with divine power and celestial energy from a god. They're demigods. Remaking them all to look like near identical massive human males serves no practical, loses the visual information that they're from disparate races, cultures and genders.

- They fail at communicating visually with you. Personal opinion, not a fact.

No, it is fact. You repeat "opinion" in place of counter arguments because your arguments are pretty weak.

" You can proxy each other if you convert them appropriately, but Eternals are much bigger (like true scale marines)".

You don't need miniatures to play the game to begin with, so no you don't.

- As it was mentioned - 5 model elite/big infantry kits were priced at 50$ for a long time. Compare them to terminators in size.

- Terminators are more detailed and multi-posed with dynamic poses.

a lot of subjective opinios stated as a fact, by the way how can he prove to you objectively that these models are good? What is your objective criteria for good? And what makes you think terminators are more detailed and why more details matter? What do you define as detail? Either way you are clearly mixing subjectivity and objectivity up...

a lot of subjective opinios stated as a fact, by the way how can he prove to you objectively that these models are good? What is your objective criteria for good? And what makes you think terminators are more detailed and why more details matter? What do you define as detail? Either way you are clearly mixing subjectivity and objectivity up...

If you ask me a question, wait for me to answer before making such conclusions.

You seriously think judging a model's level of detail is just a crapshoot? Just blind opinion? Seriously?

This:

https://s.yimg.com/fz/api/res/1.2/MIxKl_yGF9mDzLpbAZzjvA--/YXBwaWQ9c3JjaGRkO2g9NjI3O3E9OTU7dz04NzM-/http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yo1gdZejydU/URK7GOBA-vI/AAAAAAAACxE/jSUSRVvz6qo/s1600/space+marine+assault+terminator+squad.jpg

is more detailed than this: http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2015/7/4/726259_md-Aos%2C%20Eternal%2C%20Sigmar%2C%20Stormcast.jpg

Just look at the difference in the shields alone. Look at the difference in the hammers.

Space Marines have laurels, purity seals, bionics, exposed heads etc, to all show that these are people under the armour and individuals with histories.

Stormcast Eternals have none of that, look identical in a unit, and poorly communicate what they're supposed to be, visually. That is objective.

i think they communicate perfectly that they are now Avatars of Sigmar's power...
they seem like perfect Demi-Gods to me...

Terminators are more Baroque, sure...
they are, however, far from more dynamic models than the Eternals...

if the idea is that a Space Marine is supposed to be an individual hero, then they are communicating that quite well...
if Stormcast Eternals are supposed to be valiant warriors reborn as Avatars of Sigmar, who have slowly lost a bit of their individuality with each reincarnation, then they are communicating that perfectly, in my opinion...

there are always going to be different interpretations of the fluff...
i am not seeing them as incarnates from different races, but human warriors who had a reverence for Sigmar, and are now made in his image...

if these were objectively bad models, there would be no room to argue that they look good, yet there is...
if someone dislikes them, that is fine...
no need to rain on the parade of people who enjoy the models...

cheers
jah

TBM wrote:


The are objectively not worth the price to anyone who is looking for value for money, looking for good visual communication and is anyone who's approaching AoS without a raging boner for sigmarines and can stand to collect a different army. They objectively have vary little design variation across the range. They don't "float my goat" because they're objectively not worth the price. Again, keep your cause and effect in the right order.

I can very much "stand to collect a different army" and I think the Stormcast are worth buying. I like painting them so far. They don't blow me away visually, but they're up my alley in terms of painting, and that's my main draw to them. This is not how the word "objective" works.

I plan to use the extra pieces on Mantic Elohi minis, if they look right. Certainly some of the heads and weapons should work.

I really like the design for Stormcast Eternals because they look like what I would imagine daemons of Sigmar should look.

i think they communicate perfectly that they are now Avatars of Sigmar's power...
they seem like perfect Demi-Gods to me...

They're powerful looking. They manage that. Although bulk isn't the only way to communicate power. So they didn't have to go down that road.

But do they communicate that there are people under there? No. Terminators do.
Do they show any individuality? No. Within a unit they're identical: http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Skybolt-Hailstorm
Terminators do.
Do they communicate that they're from different species? No. Terminators this is non applicable.
Do they communicate that they're from different genders? No. Terminators: N/A.
Different cultures? No. Terminators shows this difference chapter to chapter with their variant kits. Each stormhost just has different colours. Lazy.

Terminators are more Baroque, sure...
they are, however, far from more dynamic models than the Eternals...

I was referring to the archer models specifically.

if Stormcast Eternals are supposed to be valiant warriors reborn as Avatars of Sigmar, who have slowly lost a bit of their individuality with each reincarnation, then they are communicating that perfectly, in my opinion...

They're communicating no individuality whatsoever perfectly. Which isn't their background.

there are always going to be different interpretations of the fluff...
i am not seeing them as incarnates from different races, but human warriors who had a reverence for Sigmar, and are now made in his image...

GW's version is what matters though. We're supposed to believe Sigmar turned men, women (even if you want to stop at just human) and elves and dwarves, and whatever mortal he found, into the proportions of eight foot steroidal human males when their power source is divine celestial energy and not sheer bulk. Why? Space Marines in Fantasy.

if these were objectively bad models, there would be no room to argue that they look good, yet there is.

There's a difference between looking outright bad and not communicating well visually.
..

if someone dislikes them, that is fine...
no need to rain on the parade of people who enjoy the models...

Again, like or dislike has nothing to do with this. We're talking about value for money.

- Terminators are much more detailed. Yet same price. On the UK site terminators are slightly cheaper last I looked.
- Terminators communicate their background much better by just the visuals.
- There's far more visual variety in the Space Marine Army.
- There are vastly better deals avaliable for a strong AoS army with actual utility in other GW games for anyone who can stand to not have a Stormcast army.

In regards to their designs, are they even SUPPOSED to have an identity? From what I've been reading from people on here, aren't they primarily souls entrapped within the armor? Their design seems to be more of 'we are legion' than to be indeviduals.

Comparing them to Marines isn't really applicable. Marines, despite being super soldiers and fawning over the Emporer didn't mean losing their singularity. They are still living, breathing men, and despite their training and despite all this war...they have personalities. They aren't just faceless men. They emote and care for their brothers. They still feel. They are alive. And their models properly reflect that.

Just from their masks, the Sigmarites don't seem to possess much of a personality. They are soldiers. They do Sigmars will and not much else. That's what they were seemingly created for. It's easier to have a legion fight for you if they have no sense of individuality and no real sense of self. They just do what you say through blind loyalty or magic. And these models seem to reflect this.

I'll admit, I'm a tad ignorant on their lore, but the two are still undoubtably different. Their designs are different for different reasons. It's GOOD that they aren't just Fantasy Marines.

burningstuff wrote:

TBM wrote:


The are objectively not worth the price to anyone who is looking for value for money, looking for good visual communication and is anyone who's approaching AoS without a raging boner for sigmarines and can stand to collect a different army. They objectively have vary little design variation across the range. They don't "float my goat" because they're objectively not worth the price. Again, keep your cause and effect in the right order.

I can very much "stand to collect a different army" and I think the Stormcast are worth buying. I like painting them so far. They don't blow me away visually, but they're up my alley in terms of painting, and that's my main draw to them. This is not how the word "objective" works.

Thinking stormcasts are worth buying presumes that it's not possible to think something that is way overpriced is worth buying. When one can't even tell that there are people under that armour much less people of disparate species then the design isn't communicating by the visuals by the standard GW has set for other armies. That's an objective argument. You wouldn't know any of their background just from the looks. Visually all thats presented is powerful suits of armour..




Automatically Appended Next Post:

In regards to their designs, are they even SUPPOSED to have an identity? From what I've been reading from people on here, aren't they primarily souls entrapped within the armor? Their design seems to be more of 'we are legion' than to be indeviduals.

Exactly. You can't tell if they have an identity from their designs. They do, they apparently only lose a little more of their identity each time they die but you couldn't tell they had any identity at all from looking at them.

TBM wrote:

Thinking stormcasts are worth buying presumes that it's not possible to think something that is way overpriced is worth buying. When one can't even tell that there are people under that armour much less people of disparate species then the design isn't communicating by the visuals by the standard GW has set for other armies. That's an objective argument. You wouldn't know any of their background just from the looks. Visually all thats presented is powerful suits of armour..

I don't understand your first sentence. I also don't care about whether I can tell if they're humans. I actually prefer robotic looks because human faces look goofy to me and take me out of the atmosphere. Trying to come at this from "objectivity" is not working out. It's fine if you don't like them or the price, and I think many agree that they look boring or bland. They don't to me. I'm not objectively wrong.

burningstuff wrote:

Thinking stormcasts are worth buying presumes that it's not possible to think something that is way overpriced is worth buying. When one can't even tell that there are people under that armour much less people of disparate species then the design isn't communicating by the visuals by the standard GW has set for other armies. That's an objective argument. You wouldn't know any of their background just from the looks. Visually all thats presented is powerful suits of armour..

I don't understand your first sentence. I also don't care about whether I can tell if they're humans. I actually prefer robotic looks because human faces look goofy to me and take me out of the atmosphere. Trying to come at this from "objectivity" is not working out. It's fine if you don't like them or the price, and I think many agree that they look boring or bland. They don't to me. I'm not objectively wrong.

I never said the robot look was bad. I said it doesn't communicate what they are. They aren't robots. You like it despite that. Like and dislike is subjective which is what i've repeatedly said it as nothing to do with my points. Objectively comparing sigmarines to other models in GW's range, the more detailed and expressive and visually informative terminators , sigmarines come up short. They may be good or bad to some, liked or disliked, I don't care. But compared to the standard GW has set, they are not worth that much money. Period.

Lol, just because you write objective doesn't make it so.

Terminators show there's people underneath... Really.... Same for basic marines even.

Both terminators and eternals could be taken either way from being robotic to dudes in suits.

I hope you've at least seen them in person and not just off a screen.

@TBM: i happen to think that the archers, especially with the crossbows, look good...
very much like Greek statues come to life...

like i said, you are interpreting the fluff in a different way than i am...
i am reading about mortal warriors, who's bodies and souls have been broken by their reforging into Stormcast Eternals...
not a ragtag group of men, women, Dwarves and Elves given a suit of armour and sent off to fight for Sigmar...

maybe that will change with more reading, but like i said, i DO think the miniatures visually communicate how the Eternals are supposed to be perceived...
while the models don't have eyes sculpted in the masks, the painting of the close-up of the Eternals face clearly shows eyes behind the mask...

as for Terminators and Eternals, if you look at a standard Termie Tac. squad, and then these archers, i see an equal amount of detail and dynamism...
they seem a pretty good match for quality...
if you look at the Paladins box coming out, they are analogous to the Dark Angels and Blood Angels Termies in Baroque detailing...
your rank and file guys are more basic in both armies, and the more elite guys are more detailed...

these Judicators cost the same as your basic Tac. or Assault Termie box, and look equally detailed...
the BA and DA box both cost $10 more, but have more bling...
the Paladins box, with it's extra bling is going to cost as much as the BA and DA box...
it all seems like fair value by comparison, to me...

you are more than welcome to your opinion, but i am not convinced by your argument, and i don't expect you to be convinced by mine...
nothing wrong with having different viewpoints and interpretations...

cheers
jah

To be fair gw have priced this largeish infantry at this level for years. If anything it is cheap to buy them as gw could easily have charged more. Not saying its a good price but when you are their brand new models priced as old ones of similar size its not actually bad

TBM wrote:

 BunkerBob wrote:
The only reason I don't like the sigmarines is because they sport a standard 3+ save and they have the only 2+ save in the game. That and I feel their meh when compared to my daemons, my gory disgusting daemons.

Yeah for that price on that same website I can get 20 bloodletters, and a Daemon Prince/Herald on Juggernaut. Which I can play AoS with, and play 40k with as well (and Fantasy technically), the more stable, balanced (compared to AoS) and popular game.

Hell I could basically buy this for AoS http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warriors-Of-Chaos-Battalion and have a fantasy army right there as well.

With ten sigmarines what have you got really. Stiff marine knockoffs only usable in AoS who all look like eight foot tall, 4 ft wide in the chest steroidal human males. Which isn't what they're supposed to be. They're supposed to be males and females of every race. Space Marines are hulks because their power comes from their muscles and skeleton. These Sigmarines gain power from celestial energy. So why again are they all so bulky? They fail at communicating visually. By looks they appear to be just hulking animated suits of armour all in the same pose. That's it.

Sure I guess you could proxy them for marines, but then again you could just proxy marines for eternals by that same logic.

Anyone have the sprues? Are they more. . . . adaptable in person than they are from what we can see visually?

The really annoying part is that GW appears to have no concept of economy of scale. You pay about the same per Stormcast no matter how many you buy at once.

 TheWaspinator wrote:
The really annoying part is that GW appears to have no concept of economy of scale. You pay about the same per Stormcast no matter how many you buy at once.

That's been the case with GW games for years already. Their bundles were never at any discount at all (aside from those odd miracles that happened literally once a year). Funnily enough that just encourages you to buy at your LGS as they often cut a lot off the GW retail price while they did everything they could to make retailers as miserable as possible over last years with forced mail orders and whatnot. A simple reduction in price would make people buy more, but that's just too hard to grasp, I guess.

For those, like me, who love examples - my LGS was selling AoS starter sets at about 78$. And that got a couple people to buy them even though they were unsure before, but at that price they found it a deal sealer.

Can you not shop around and get them cheaper? Or would $80 (going on the normal third party retailer discounts here) still be too much? I buy most of my stuff from my local gw store, but if I want something pricey I sometimes go third party.

I would like to point out that all of the Eternal sets besides the starter have a much larger set of weapon options. The Stormcast Eternals set alone has 30+ weapons. Honestly I would gladly pay a extra $10 on any model kit if that means I don't need to buy 5+ of them to get a 4+ special weapons squad going.

May GW never stop raising prices until everyone quits them.