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Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

Asterios wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
lets put it this way, On taros the marines dropped into tau held territory, the tau have comparable tech to the imperium, but massively more advanced than us, the marines dug in and for 3 days they took on a massively superior force, holding out, and eventually escaping, we have no where near the level of tech that the tau do.

As a side note, people need to stop using the TT rules for ranges and how accurate and army is in the fluff, the fluff influences the rules, but the rules are not representative of the actual fluff, we know marines could take this planet out easily because... guess what, they do, against tech levels both greater and lesser than ours.

as a second side note, the models are designed by people who have no idea how such things work, were the 40k universe real, these vehicles would look very different, better clearance etc. so people need to drop that too, we know leman russ and land raiders couldn't actually get around properly.


going by the Fluff, ignore the Fluff it is geared towards making whoever they want to look good even if it defies logic, look at the battle of Macragge and the Battle of Caliban, fluff is not designed to follow logic but to follow the story they want to tell and using fluff as your basis of comparison to what would/could happen is flawed.


No, you look at the whole and not little snipets of the fluff, on the whole we can see that marines are an extremely capable force, there are a few examples of mega ultra marines like brotherhood of the snake, but the vast majority just has them as extremely capable shock troops, but by no means godlike, the HH series is a good example of this, people seem to only focus on the extreme examples and take that as the gospel.

For example, we know that a land raider in the fluff can take an insane amount of firepower to bring down (by our standards) as its shown consistenly across the fluff, but in the TT all it needs is a few hits with the right weapons and is pretty lacklustre, because the game is made for balance (lol), the fluff isn't, the fluff shows what these things are capable of, but the writers have no military or technical training, so don't really know what they are talking about, thing is, neither do we, we don't know just how powerful a lascannon is, a gauss rifle, a railgun etc. so when people say something stupid like "an abrams can take out a land raider on the move at 50kph" the answer is no, it couldn't because the fluff shows that such weapons are ineffective against the land raider, then people say "ah, but the post with the land raider and FW say that the armour is X thick" again no, this is technical info made by people who haven't a clue what they are talking about, if they did, we would have real land raiders.

so as I say, take the whole not just the little bits of info, the rules can be disregarded as they have little to do with the fluff, and this is a fluff discussion, not a TT one.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Formosa wrote:
Asterios wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
lets put it this way, On taros the marines dropped into tau held territory, the tau have comparable tech to the imperium, but massively more advanced than us, the marines dug in and for 3 days they took on a massively superior force, holding out, and eventually escaping, we have no where near the level of tech that the tau do.

As a side note, people need to stop using the TT rules for ranges and how accurate and army is in the fluff, the fluff influences the rules, but the rules are not representative of the actual fluff, we know marines could take this planet out easily because... guess what, they do, against tech levels both greater and lesser than ours.

as a second side note, the models are designed by people who have no idea how such things work, were the 40k universe real, these vehicles would look very different, better clearance etc. so people need to drop that too, we know leman russ and land raiders couldn't actually get around properly.


going by the Fluff, ignore the Fluff it is geared towards making whoever they want to look good even if it defies logic, look at the battle of Macragge and the Battle of Caliban, fluff is not designed to follow logic but to follow the story they want to tell and using fluff as your basis of comparison to what would/could happen is flawed.


No, you look at the whole and not little snipets of the fluff, on the whole we can see that marines are an extremely capable force, there are a few examples of mega ultra marines like brotherhood of the snake, but the vast majority just has them as extremely capable shock troops, but by no means godlike, the HH series is a good example of this, people seem to only focus on the extreme examples and take that as the gospel.

For example, we know that a land raider in the fluff can take an insane amount of firepower to bring down (by our standards) as its shown consistenly across the fluff, but in the TT all it needs is a few hits with the right weapons and is pretty lacklustre, because the game is made for balance (lol), the fluff isn't, the fluff shows what these things are capable of, but the writers have no military or technical training, so don't really know what they are talking about, thing is, neither do we, we don't know just how powerful a lascannon is, a gauss rifle, a railgun etc. so when people say something stupid like "an abrams can take out a land raider on the move at 50kph" the answer is no, it couldn't because the fluff shows that such weapons are ineffective against the land raider, then people say "ah, but the post with the land raider and FW say that the armour is X thick" again no, this is technical info made by people who haven't a clue what they are talking about, if they did, we would have real land raiders.

so as I say, take the whole not just the little bits of info, the rules can be disregarded as they have little to do with the fluff, and this is a fluff discussion, not a TT one.


Actually I disagree I do think an Abrams could take out a Land Raider, how you say? a good shot placed on the tracks and its out of circulation, you seem to attribute god like abilities to these weapon systems and such, a Bolter round is nothing but a rocket propelled bullet, thats it, a bullet from an M-16 could probably do as much damage, a Bullet from a 50 cal definitely could. as to armor, no armor is impervious all it takes is the right round or the right shot and the fact Tyranids can cut thru it, it can't be all that good. but I digress you keep quoting the fluff as it is gospel it is not it is whatever the author at the time wrote up in a their mad delirium state at the time, also reason we do not have Land Raiders right now is, well they are pointless, lets face it, the land raider is just a fancy troop transport and that is it. we already have a vehicle the Rhino was based on and the Warthog or whatever GW calls it, and the Land raider is a send back to old WWI style tanks, its an old outclassed system that is useless, that is why we don't have vehicles like the Land Raider now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/25 15:41:06


Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

Where does fluff show that something like an Abrams could not successfully engage a Land Raider?


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in de
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germany,bavaria

 Vaktathi wrote:
Where does fluff show that something like an Abrams could not successfully engage a Land Raider?



Where is an Abrams part of wh40K?



Maybe some people should realize this is 40k Background ....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fact is, Space Marines can conquer GW designed planets.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/25 15:54:46


Target locked,ready to fire



In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.

H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

 1hadhq wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Where does fluff show that something like an Abrams could not successfully engage a Land Raider?



Where is an Abrams part of wh40K?
That was kind of my point, people arguing that an Abrams could not engage a Land Raider because "the fluff shows that such weapons are ineffective against a land raider" doesn't actually have any fluff to reinforce that point that I can recall.

Bringing in real life stuff came in as a result of pointing out how Space Marines really do lack lots of capabilities and couldn't function on the scales they're often represented in once any bit of non-tactical concerns were introduced.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/25 16:02:31


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 1hadhq wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Where does fluff show that something like an Abrams could not successfully engage a Land Raider?



Where is an Abrams part of wh40K?



Maybe some people should realize this is 40k Background ....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fact is, Space Marines can conquer GW designed planets.


it Depends if SM's could conquer GM based planets, all too many times they enacted Exterminatus, where no boots on the ground and they blasted the planet from space, furthermore most of the planets they are seen conquering are not what I would call great forces too begin with but forces related too maybe our WWI or WWII times. as to Abrams in the GW universe look too the IG's they are almost designed like Earth's equivalent in Troop and vehicle types.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/25 15:58:55


Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. 
   
Made in de
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander






germany,bavaria

Asterios wrote:
 1hadhq wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Where does fluff show that something like an Abrams could not successfully engage a Land Raider?



Where is an Abrams part of wh40K?



Maybe some people should realize this is 40k Background ....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fact is, Space Marines can conquer GW designed planets.


it Depends if SM's could conquer GM based planets, all too many times they enacted Exterminatus, where no boots on the ground and they blasted the planet from space, furthermore most of the planets they are seen conquering are not what I would call great forces too begin with but forces related too maybe our WWI or WWII times. as to Abrams in the GW universe look too the IG's they are almost designed like Earth's equivalent in Troop and vehicle types.


Fighting in engagements with Land Raiders gainst several non-Land Raiders isn't hard to find. Just look up the stories published at the release of the plastic Land Raider kit.
But maybe that isn't what you are looking for.

Target locked,ready to fire



In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.

H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 1hadhq wrote:
Asterios wrote:
 1hadhq wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Where does fluff show that something like an Abrams could not successfully engage a Land Raider?



Where is an Abrams part of wh40K?



Maybe some people should realize this is 40k Background ....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fact is, Space Marines can conquer GW designed planets.


it Depends if SM's could conquer GM based planets, all too many times they enacted Exterminatus, where no boots on the ground and they blasted the planet from space, furthermore most of the planets they are seen conquering are not what I would call great forces too begin with but forces related too maybe our WWI or WWII times. as to Abrams in the GW universe look too the IG's they are almost designed like Earth's equivalent in Troop and vehicle types.


Fighting in engagements with Land Raiders gainst several non-Land Raiders isn't hard to find. Just look up the stories published at the release of the plastic Land Raider kit.
But maybe that isn't what you are looking for.


didn't say it was, just saying Land Raiders are not impervious and that even an Earth Type Abrams could take one out.

Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. 
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

 Vaktathi wrote:


Bringing in real life stuff came in as a result of pointing out how Space Marines really do lack lots of capabilities and couldn't function on the scales they're often represented in once any bit of non-tactical concerns were introduced.


If you are going to bring in all the 'Land Raiders would not work in real life' and so into the discussion, it kind of makes the entire subject moot because the fight could never happen to begin with. Many things in 40k simply physically cannot exist in real life, and bringing them here would create a metaphysical paradox that would spell the end of all life.

IOW, a draw?

Currently ongoing projects:
Horus Heresy Alpha Legion
Tyranids  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Ashiraya wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:


Bringing in real life stuff came in as a result of pointing out how Space Marines really do lack lots of capabilities and couldn't function on the scales they're often represented in once any bit of non-tactical concerns were introduced.


If you are going to bring in all the 'Land Raiders would not work in real life' and so into the discussion, it kind of makes the entire subject moot because the fight could never happen to begin with. Many things in 40k simply physically cannot exist in real life, and bringing them here would create a metaphysical paradox that would spell the end of all life.

IOW, a draw?


oh Land Raiders could work no doubt about that, but they are not that great of a vehicle, you have to remember that the 40K universe lost a lot of its tech and technical knowledge over the past 10 millenia to the point that working on a vehicle is tantamount to a religion almost, most vehicles and such are mystical to the normal Space Marine.

Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. 
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut




 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Without any help whatsoever, absolutely not. A typical codex chapter is 1,000 battle brothers. The only thing they'd conquer alone are moons and space stations. But if it's a world, then they'd definitely need local PDF or IG to help flex their muscles. Otherwise, they're losing the numbers game really bad, and even as superhuman as they are, it wouldn't be hard for a capable rebel commander to eliminate them.
Exactly !

I don't think people actually understand how small a number a 1000 men is to hold an ENTIRE planet.

Losing 10 battle brothers in a battle could already be a crippling loss for a force numbering a mere 1000 men no matter how superhuman they are.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




godking wrote:
 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Without any help whatsoever, absolutely not. A typical codex chapter is 1,000 battle brothers. The only thing they'd conquer alone are moons and space stations. But if it's a world, then they'd definitely need local PDF or IG to help flex their muscles. Otherwise, they're losing the numbers game really bad, and even as superhuman as they are, it wouldn't be hard for a capable rebel commander to eliminate them.
Exactly !

I don't think people actually understand how small a number a 1000 men is to hold an ENTIRE planet.

Losing 10 battle brothers in a battle could already be a crippling loss for a force numbering a mere 1000 men no matter how superhuman they are.


that is my point too, man to SM the SM will always win out 1,000 men to a space marine and the space marine will lose out, or even 100 men to 1 space marine, each space marine I would put equivalent to 10 men.

Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. 
   
Made in de
Primus





Palmerston North

 Vaktathi wrote:
Hrm, we have capabilities in modern militaries that the Tau could only dream of. The Tau have nothing analagous to radar or GPS guided artillery, their aircraft are all built around WW2 style dogfighting with nothing resembling the beyond visual range engagement capabilities modern aircraft have, they have nothing like an AWACS capable of detecting, tracking, and disseminating targeting data on dozens of targets to friendly fighter aircraft to engage from over a hundred miles away, and descriptions of the effects of Railsguns against Leman Russ tanks merely match what modern APFSDS rounds do to tanks, hell we even widely distribute Blacksun filter equivalent equipment to basic infantry en-masse as opposed to just on heavy equipment like tanks/suits/etc, and it's standard issue on literally everything instead of some sort of special upgrade.


When reading this I cannot help but think of Star Wars with its space planes that seem to be designed in a way that ignores zero gravity.

Maybe in the case of planet vs planet combat ground based military forces are so irrelevant that they can be designed badly and still perform their role.
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

Asterios wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:


Bringing in real life stuff came in as a result of pointing out how Space Marines really do lack lots of capabilities and couldn't function on the scales they're often represented in once any bit of non-tactical concerns were introduced.


If you are going to bring in all the 'Land Raiders would not work in real life' and so into the discussion, it kind of makes the entire subject moot because the fight could never happen to begin with. Many things in 40k simply physically cannot exist in real life, and bringing them here would create a metaphysical paradox that would spell the end of all life.

IOW, a draw?


oh Land Raiders could work no doubt about that, but they are not that great of a vehicle, you have to remember that the 40K universe lost a lot of its tech and technical knowledge over the past 10 millenia to the point that working on a vehicle is tantamount to a religion almost, most vehicles and such are mystical to the normal Space Marine.


No, I mean things like the ammunition pocket dimensions used by Marines and Leman Russes alike.

Currently ongoing projects:
Horus Heresy Alpha Legion
Tyranids  
   
Made in de
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander






germany,bavaria

godking wrote:
 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Without any help whatsoever, absolutely not. A typical codex chapter is 1,000 battle brothers. The only thing they'd conquer alone are moons and space stations. But if it's a world, then they'd definitely need local PDF or IG to help flex their muscles. Otherwise, they're losing the numbers game really bad, and even as superhuman as they are, it wouldn't be hard for a capable rebel commander to eliminate them.
Exactly !

I don't think people actually understand how small a number a 1000 men is to hold an ENTIRE planet.

Losing 10 battle brothers in a battle could already be a crippling loss for a force numbering a mere 1000 men no matter how superhuman they are.



Entire Planet = ???

Agri-World = a few thousand "farmers". Vs 1000 SM. Who wins?

Target locked,ready to fire



In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.

H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Ashiraya wrote:
Asterios wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:


Bringing in real life stuff came in as a result of pointing out how Space Marines really do lack lots of capabilities and couldn't function on the scales they're often represented in once any bit of non-tactical concerns were introduced.


If you are going to bring in all the 'Land Raiders would not work in real life' and so into the discussion, it kind of makes the entire subject moot because the fight could never happen to begin with. Many things in 40k simply physically cannot exist in real life, and bringing them here would create a metaphysical paradox that would spell the end of all life.

IOW, a draw?


oh Land Raiders could work no doubt about that, but they are not that great of a vehicle, you have to remember that the 40K universe lost a lot of its tech and technical knowledge over the past 10 millenia to the point that working on a vehicle is tantamount to a religion almost, most vehicles and such are mystical to the normal Space Marine.


No, I mean things like the ammunition pocket dimensions used by Marines and Leman Russes alike.


bah then its just like Hollywood and their 100 round revolver.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 1hadhq wrote:
godking wrote:
 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Without any help whatsoever, absolutely not. A typical codex chapter is 1,000 battle brothers. The only thing they'd conquer alone are moons and space stations. But if it's a world, then they'd definitely need local PDF or IG to help flex their muscles. Otherwise, they're losing the numbers game really bad, and even as superhuman as they are, it wouldn't be hard for a capable rebel commander to eliminate them.
Exactly !

I don't think people actually understand how small a number a 1000 men is to hold an ENTIRE planet.

Losing 10 battle brothers in a battle could already be a crippling loss for a force numbering a mere 1000 men no matter how superhuman they are.



Entire Planet = ???

Agri-World = a few thousand "farmers". Vs 1000 SM. Who wins?


even Agri-Worlds have more then a few thousand "farmers" more like a few million.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/25 17:07:50


Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. 
   
Made in de
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander






germany,bavaria

Asterios wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 1hadhq wrote:
godking wrote:
 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Without any help whatsoever, absolutely not. A typical codex chapter is 1,000 battle brothers. The only thing they'd conquer alone are moons and space stations. But if it's a world, then they'd definitely need local PDF or IG to help flex their muscles. Otherwise, they're losing the numbers game really bad, and even as superhuman as they are, it wouldn't be hard for a capable rebel commander to eliminate them.
Exactly !

I don't think people actually understand how small a number a 1000 men is to hold an ENTIRE planet.

Losing 10 battle brothers in a battle could already be a crippling loss for a force numbering a mere 1000 men no matter how superhuman they are.



Entire Planet = ???

Agri-World = a few thousand "farmers". Vs 1000 SM. Who wins?


even Agri-Worlds have more then a few thousand "farmers" more like a few million.


Rulebook 3rd edition, page 114-115 :

Agri - World = min pop at 15000 , max at 1000000. Examples: BellisXIV, Chiros,, Kabaal II, Silvanos II, Verdan III
Death World = min pop at 1000 , max at 15000000. Examples: Canak, Catachan, Lost Hope, Miral, Piscina IV.


So NO, Worlds may have only a few thousand Humans living there.
A range is given, not precise numbers. And it has not been replaced by more recent info IIRC.

Target locked,ready to fire



In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.

H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 1hadhq wrote:
Asterios wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 1hadhq wrote:
godking wrote:
 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Without any help whatsoever, absolutely not. A typical codex chapter is 1,000 battle brothers. The only thing they'd conquer alone are moons and space stations. But if it's a world, then they'd definitely need local PDF or IG to help flex their muscles. Otherwise, they're losing the numbers game really bad, and even as superhuman as they are, it wouldn't be hard for a capable rebel commander to eliminate them.
Exactly !

I don't think people actually understand how small a number a 1000 men is to hold an ENTIRE planet.

Losing 10 battle brothers in a battle could already be a crippling loss for a force numbering a mere 1000 men no matter how superhuman they are.



Entire Planet = ???

Agri-World = a few thousand "farmers". Vs 1000 SM. Who wins?


even Agri-Worlds have more then a few thousand "farmers" more like a few million.


Rulebook 3rd edition, page 114-115 :

Agri - World = min pop at 15000 , max at 1000000. Examples: BellisXIV, Chiros,, Kabaal II, Silvanos II, Verdan III
Death World = min pop at 1000 , max at 15000000. Examples: Canak, Catachan, Lost Hope, Miral, Piscina IV.


So NO, Worlds may have only a few thousand Humans living there.
A range is given, not precise numbers. And it has not been replaced by more recent info IIRC.


you do realize those numbers are no where realistic? if you went by those numbers you would have a very small agri-world or essentially like having a lot farm in a big city. very small and very useless to the empire. then you have Agri-worlds like "Iocanthos Segmentum Obscurus, Calixis Sector Golgenna Reach Unknown 5,000,000,000" thats 5 Billion people on it, and there are several of them with millions of people on them, the info is out there, you are basing yours on old schematics and such. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Agri_World so yes there is more updated info out there that proves you wrong, you just did not look for it or ignored it.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/09/25 19:02:36


Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. 
   
Made in de
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander






germany,bavaria

Asterios wrote:



you do realize those numbers are no where realistic? if you went by those numbers you would have a very small agri-world or essentially like having a lot farm in a big city. very small and very useless to the empire. then you have Agri-worlds like "Iocanthos Segmentum Obscurus, Calixis Sector Golgenna Reach Unknown 5,000,000,000" thats 5 Billion people on it, and there are several of them with millions of people on them, the info is out there, you are basing yours on old schematics and such. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Agri_World so yes there is more updated info out there that proves you wrong, you just did not look for it or ignored it.


Realistic? in 40k ??

You sir, run with 3rd party FFG material. I for one, used GW main product line. How could some licensed stuff prove anything wrong if said company can loose that license tomorrow? Are we going to delete it when its OOP?


Yes , 3rd is very old and maybe GW could update it all. But it did not. Thus, 3rd is the only edition where you get the classification , sizes, tithes etc all on 1 page. If you don't like that, fine.
Do you expect people to buy all this little offerings, 3rd party, BL "novels" and whatever and look it all up just to "be right"?
But, at least , read the lexicanum listing. How many of the entries are pop = unknown? 90% ? Don`t you think there is reason for this?

Maybe, just maybe, accept the fact you deal with GW, an inconsistent and semi-pro at getting any scale wrong company.

10000 SM are a Legion....oh wait, nobody buys that anymore so.... lets make them 100000.

Same for your 5.000.000.000. FFG may deem it a size people can believe in. But it isn't compatible with 1000 SM, which is older than 3rd ed as an idea.
Its possible the classification by GW and FFG differ, too....
At least, the data I have used is compatible, is found in one and the same source.

And yes, I am going to ignore short term licensed stuff if I have no copy to look it up to make sure the data is correct. Plus, there is this "disclaimer" known as IIRC... at the end of my post.

All you are going to get with this silly "must have billions on every planet" idea is, the use of WMD to clear the path. Hey, after that virus bomb, the stragglers are easy to deal with, even a company of SM should be overkill.
Or worse, M.W. and his Beloved Ultras do the "conquering" in no time. Because poster boys.





This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/25 20:05:02


Target locked,ready to fire



In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.

H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 1hadhq wrote:
Asterios wrote:



you do realize those numbers are no where realistic? if you went by those numbers you would have a very small agri-world or essentially like having a lot farm in a big city. very small and very useless to the empire. then you have Agri-worlds like "Iocanthos Segmentum Obscurus, Calixis Sector Golgenna Reach Unknown 5,000,000,000" thats 5 Billion people on it, and there are several of them with millions of people on them, the info is out there, you are basing yours on old schematics and such. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Agri_World so yes there is more updated info out there that proves you wrong, you just did not look for it or ignored it.


Realistic? in 40k ??

You sir, run with 3rd party FFG material. I for one, used GW main product line. How could some licensed stuff prove anything wrong if said company can loose that license tomorrow? Are we going to delete it when its OOP?


Yes , 3rd is very old and maybe GW could update it all. But it did not. Thus, 3rd is the only edition where you get the classification , sizes, tithes etc all on 1 page. If you don't like that, fine.
Do you expect people to buy all this little offerings, 3rd party, BL "novels" and whatever and look it all up just to "be right"?
But, at least , read the lexicanum listing. How many of the entries are pop = unknown? 90% ? Don`t you think there is reason for this?

Maybe, just maybe, accept the fact you deal with GW, an inconsistent and semi-pro at getting any scale wrong company.

10000 SM are a Legion....oh wait, nobody buys that anymore so.... lets make them 100000.

Same for your 5.000.000.000. FFG may deem it a size people can believe in. But it isn't compatible with 1000 SM, which is older than 3rd ed as an idea.
Its possible the classification by GW and FFG differ, too....
At least, the data I have used is compatible, is found in one and the same source.

And yes, I am going to ignore short term licensed stuff if I have no copy to look it up to make sure the data is correct. Plus, there is this "disclaimer" known as IIRC... at the end of my post.

All you are going to get with this silly "must have billions on every planet" idea is, the use of WMD to clear the path. Hey, after that virus bomb, the stragglers are easy to deal with, even a company of SM should be overkill.
Or worse, M.W. and his Beloved Ultras do the "conquering" in no time. Because poster boys.


actually the Lexicanum is used of official GW canon:

Please note that the wiki is for 'official canon only'.


which also comes with info to back it up from Official canon:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iocanthos

furthermore SM armies are made up of only 1K troops now because to prevent them from taking over planets and such like they did when they were larger legions.

and when it comes down to it, if the SM's want a planet, they exterminate the entire population if they deem them Heretics and such. and they do such from orbit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/25 20:12:15


Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. 
   
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germany,bavaria

Sorry, using the words official canon isn't a good idea....
Cannons, you can have as many as you want. But canon?

Wouldn't trust fluff that gets the classification wrong.
Is it an agri World or a feudal one? By GW, there is no "and" there is an "or" as the correct answer. 1 class. Not 2.

Am pretty sure someone either classified your example wrongly or added a few 0 . Because it isn't one of many, it is the one standing out. So I don't trust it.



The use of official material is what any contributor to lexi is meant to do and I would always support this approach.
But, there is no certificate or proof by GW of "canon" ´.
At Lexi they Can't stop anything but fanwank if GW itself doesn't mark their works as "true" or "very possible".

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 1hadhq wrote:
Sorry, using the words official canon isn't a good idea....
Cannons, you can have as many as you want. But canon?

Wouldn't trust fluff that gets the classification wrong.
Is it an agri World or a feudal one? By GW, there is no "and" there is an "or" as the correct answer. 1 class. Not 2.

Am pretty sure someone either classified your example wrongly or added a few 0 . Because it isn't one of many, it is the one standing out. So I don't trust it.



The use of official material is what any contributor to lexi is meant to do and I would always support this approach.
But, there is no certificate or proof by GW of "canon" ´.
At Lexi they Can't stop anything but fanwank if GW itself doesn't mark their works as "true" or "very possible".


and i repeat the info is based off of official GW info, it is an Agri-World because they farm a product there, it is used by the Imperium it has one use, but still a use. and the way the Imperium handles it, prevents the planet from becoming one force and an issue.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/25 21:19:44


Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. 
   
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germany,bavaria

The common duty of agri worlds is to make more than they consume to feed the worlds who cannot.
Like Agri worlds running mostly on farming and feeding hive worlds.

Again , old fluff, basically the rather barbaric worlds with low tech and small pop's and the civilized ones won't need the agri worlds products, but the over industrialized and overpopulated hives do, so this setup seems to make sense.

Beeing an agri world because it grows "drugs", or better said it does have a product which is collected and beeing fought over, can't help but this sounds a bit weird..to me.

Farmers and/or ranchers who export food, sure agri world I'd say. But your example seem to be unable to control the "farming", to have to search for and to "collect". Isn't that a hunter/collector culture and not settled agricultural?

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We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
 
   
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 1hadhq wrote:
The common duty of agri worlds is to make more than they consume to feed the worlds who cannot.
Like Agri worlds running mostly on farming and feeding hive worlds.

Again , old fluff, basically the rather barbaric worlds with low tech and small pop's and the civilized ones won't need the agri worlds products, but the over industrialized and overpopulated hives do, so this setup seems to make sense.

Beeing an agri world because it grows "drugs", or better said it does have a product which is collected and beeing fought over, can't help but this sounds a bit weird..to me.

Farmers and/or ranchers who export food, sure agri world I'd say. But your example seem to be unable to control the "farming", to have to search for and to "collect". Isn't that a hunter/collector culture and not settled agricultural?


you have pretty much a limited view of agri-worlds, agri-worlds consist of any type of food and natural drug collection which includes fishing, hunting, psychadelic drugs, and plant based and tree based foods. all things required to make the Imperium keep on moving.

Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. 
   
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 Formosa wrote:
As a side note, people need to stop using the TT rules for ranges and how accurate and army is in the fluff, the fluff influences the rules, but the rules are not representative of the actual fluff, we know marines could take this planet out easily because... guess what, they do, against tech levels both greater and lesser than ours.


You're arguing when the fluff says the SMs win, they win; but if the fluff says they die, they don't?

Nope. All of the fluff is valid, and so are the rules. SMs are clearly vulnerable to the basic artillery, machine guns, shotguns and (sniper) rifles as of100+ years ago in WW1, and they would die that much faster to today's weapons. Especially as our weapons are far more accurate, at far longer ranges. And that's the difference between Imperial dogma vs modern practice. The SMs don't actually use any of the embedded technology in their suits or weapons. They shoot from the hip, not even using the iron sights, much less the autorangefinder tools. Our guys use the laser sights and computer fire control on our vehicles. They use the manual override and hand crank the elevation and traverse. That's why they miss 1/3 of the time, no matter what the gun or the tech. Plus, they're all meathead morons.

   
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Everyone saying and arguing over the fluff and TT is valid, and as such that's why modern weapons will win.

Well, heres validity for you, all those air bases that would be used to launch all those fighter jets to give air superiority to earth... You don't need to destroy the air craft to make them useless, all you need to do is orbital bombard the runways. Let's see how good your abrahm tank is when it being attacked from air, or having assault marines air dropped behind and having melta bombs strapped to it or fusion nuked at short range with melta guns and then escaping fast back to their thunder hawks or storm ravens to attack the next targets.


All those anti air sites that are around to take out the drop pods, yep, you just launch empty drop pods (legit tactic used) and again, you just bombard those sites. That artillery that will take out the marines on the ground and fire at the pods that make it, yep, you've just revealed your position, bye bye.

Fact of the matter is, orbital stationed marines in our world are a ideal of future warfare capability, ramped up super humans in armour that can shrug off most small weapons fire? Yep, even more scary. Lastly, those snipers that will shoot through the marines, how many of them are in the world? And how many of them do you expect to be in the right place at the right time? Marines can just board their thunder hawks and live to fight another day from their strike cruisers and battle barges before letting those snipers reach their position...

All your patriotic (idiotic) MERICA folk need to chill out, if you were that great a force you wouldn't have ballsed up Nam, Irag both times, Afghan and you are now making a pigs ear of Syria....

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/09/26 11:56:13


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On moon miranda.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Everyone saying and arguing over the fluff and TT is valid, and as such that's why modern weapons will win.

Well, heres validity for you, all those air bases that would be used to launch all those fighter jets to give air superiority to earth... You don't need to destroy the air craft to make them useless, all you need to do is orbital bombard the runways.
and the question then goes back to...how do the SM's know where all of these are...?

Let's see how good your abrahm tank is when it being attacked from air
Thats already a thing in real life and why tanks are deployed with AA support and air cover. Likewise, a Marine chapter wont have very many aircraft, a few dozen at best, which are irrelevant against a foe who has thousands like China, Russia, and the NATO nations do.

or having assault marines air dropped behind and having melta bombs strapped to it
Yeah...that doesnt work terribly well in real life. Tanks move very fast, have tons of machine guns to knock off infantry, and quite frankly can and will crush and grind infantry in ways that 40k rules dont allow for. Historically grenade attacks on tanks have been exceedingly dangerous and essentially pointlessly suicidal outside heavily built up urban areas or dense forest for a reason.

And again, there's a couple hundred assault marines in a Chapter...there are tens of thousands of main battle tanks on earth.

or fusion nuked at short range with melta guns and then escaping fast back to their thunder hawks or storm ravens to attack the next targets.
which is no different than the threats that tanks face and successfully overcome today...helicopter borne infantry and RPG's exist and dont need to be within rock throwing distance to kill a tank




ll those anti air sites that are around to take out the drop pods, yep, you just launch empty drop pods (legit tactic used) and again, you just bombard those sites.
Yes, because that works 100% effectively every time...

Thats a rare tactic even in 40k, SM's dont have tons of disposable pods, and while you might get some AA sites...youre not going to get huge numbers of them that way.

Such tactics are used in real life and are far from surefire ways of defeating enemy AA defenses, otherwise AA defenses wouldnt be worth squat today if they were just that easy to bypass.

That artillery that will take out the marines on the ground and fire at the pods that make it, yep, you've just revealed your position, bye bye.
And the Marines find that out...how? I dont recall radar guided counterbattery fire to be a thing in 40k...ever. Likewise, if its self propelled artillery, then the guns are already moving and gone by the time return fire comes their way.

Fact of the matter is, orbital stationed marines in our world are a ideal of future warfare capability
In 40k theyre a medeival knight Fantasy trope in a scifi skin. Something like Starship Troopers has truly terrifying power armored infantry with much more realistic functionality.

ramped up super humans in armour that can shrug off most small weapons fire? Yep, even more scary.
Sure...until you realize that small arms are responsible for a minimal number of casualties in a conventional conflict...

Lastly, those snipers that will shoot through the marines, how many of them are in the world? And how many of them do you expect to be in the right place at the right time? Marines can just board their thunder hawks and live to fight another day from their strike cruisers and battle barges before letting those snipers reach their position...
And yet so often (and more usually in fact in most fluff) they dont just hop right back on the Thunderhawk. And again...we have real life equivalents like helicopter borne infantry.

Likewise, given how few in number the marines are, especially relative to modern armies, and the targets theyd need to hit, one could probably predict many targets and station specialists there ahead of time...operational planning 101.

All your patriotic (idiotic) MERICA folk need to chill out, if you were that great a force you wouldn't have ballsed up Nam, Irag both times, Afghan and you are now making a pigs ear of Syria....
Nobody is going off on some patriotic 'Murica rant, but rather comparing 40k's Fanatsy/WW2 underpinnings to real world functionality.

Methinks you are projecting a whole lot of other issues and perceptions onto the argument here than others are bringing into it, as revealed by this last statement.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/09/26 16:34:37


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endlesswaltz123 wrote:
All your patriotic (idiotic) MERICA folk need to chill out, if you were that great a force you wouldn't have ballsed up Nam, Irag both times, Afghan and you are now making a pigs ear of Syria....


And with this particular bit, the SM side just lost the entire debate.

   
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endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Everyone saying and arguing over the fluff and TT is valid, and as such that's why modern weapons will win.

Well, heres validity for you, all those air bases that would be used to launch all those fighter jets to give air superiority to earth... You don't need to destroy the air craft to make them useless, all you need to do is orbital bombard the runways. Let's see how good your abrahm tank is when it being attacked from air, or having assault marines air dropped behind and having melta bombs strapped to it or fusion nuked at short range with melta guns and then escaping fast back to their thunder hawks or storm ravens to attack the next targets.


All those anti air sites that are around to take out the drop pods, yep, you just launch empty drop pods (legit tactic used) and again, you just bombard those sites. That artillery that will take out the marines on the ground and fire at the pods that make it, yep, you've just revealed your position, bye bye.

Fact of the matter is, orbital stationed marines in our world are a ideal of future warfare capability, ramped up super humans in armour that can shrug off most small weapons fire? Yep, even more scary. Lastly, those snipers that will shoot through the marines, how many of them are in the world? And how many of them do you expect to be in the right place at the right time? Marines can just board their thunder hawks and live to fight another day from their strike cruisers and battle barges before letting those snipers reach their position...

All your patriotic (idiotic) MERICA folk need to chill out, if you were that great a force you wouldn't have ballsed up Nam, Irag both times, Afghan and you are now making a pigs ear of Syria....


well lets see many american craft don't even need a runway to take off, furthermore you think it will take more then one anti-air missile site to take out some drop pods? and oh wait if enough drop pods taken out doubt they will have anymore to drop in, not counting mobile anti-air units, as to the Abram tank, congrats you took one out, the other thousand just took out your space marines, yeah we have more Abrams then in several SM chapters something on the number 5K total or so and about 9K of the M1A1 which is also a version of the Abrams. as to Snipers I will bet on my rifle against some smurf trooper any day of the week. as to how many snipers in the world? competent one several thousand, very good ones hundreds, odds still do not favor the SM's. as to why we lost or did not do so well in those wars well for the same reason the SM's will lose, guerilla tactics and such.

Also we were good enough to take out another more advanced force and better trained one at that, then us during our Revolutionary war.

Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. 
   
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Southern California, USA

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Everyone saying and arguing over the fluff and TT is valid, and as such that's why modern weapons will win.

Well, heres validity for you, all those air bases that would be used to launch all those fighter jets to give air superiority to earth... You don't need to destroy the air craft to make them useless, all you need to do is orbital bombard the runways. Let's see how good your abrahm tank is when it being attacked from air, or having assault marines air dropped behind and having melta bombs strapped to it or fusion nuked at short range with melta guns and then escaping fast back to their thunder hawks or storm ravens to attack the next targets.


Let's see how great those Thunderhawks are when they are hit by missiles fired at them by aircraft they can't even see. Let's see how great those marines are when they are struck with precision munitions.



All your patriotic (idiotic) MERICA folk need to chill out, if you were that great a force you wouldn't have ballsed up Nam, Irag both times, Afghan and you are now making a pigs ear of Syria....


Just cleaning up the mess you Europeans made of the Middle East.

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