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So I've been eyeing up the Skyhammer Annihilation Force for space-marines (http://www.spikeybits.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/skyhammer-close-up.jpg), and I'd really like to stick Tigurius in with one of the devastator squads. My hope would be to go on the biomancy table so that in subsequent turns I could grab the power that give the squad 4+ FnP and Relentless, and load out the devs with Grav Cannons.

However, if Tigurius is part of the squad I don't know if he then causes the whole unit to forfeit it's rules. I mean presumably you couldn't attach a Chaplain to the assault squad and then be able to assault on that same turn with both the assault squad and the chaplain, so by a similar token im not sure if having a 9 man devastator squad plus Tigurius in one of the pods would then 'break' the rules for the squad. This whole business of independent characters getting attached to formations seems to come up a lot, so I wanted to ask what are the official rules that govern whether non-formation ICs are allowed to join formation-units, and what effect this has on the unit.

In my gaming circles people seem to treat it on a case by case basis, saying things like 'oh he can join them to begin with, but his being a part of the squad will mean that the squad cant use its ability', but then for another formation saying things like 'he cant deploy attached to the squad because they enter play in a special way' or something.

How does it all work?

Cheers

 xandermacleod wrote:
This whole business of independent characters getting attached to formations seems to come up a lot, so I wanted to ask what are the official rules that govern whether non-formation ICs are allowed to join formation-units, and what effect this has on the unit.

It comes up alot precisely because there are no explicit rules to cover IC's and Formations.

We are given the basic ability to join IC's to Battle Brother units, and there is no limitation on that being in the same Detachment as the character starts in, so you can absolutely join Tiggy-wiggy to the Skyhammer Devs.

The problem comes from the vagueness of the Independent Character rules, seemingly contradictory. Let's take it step-by-step:

- An Independent Character joined to a unit "...counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes..." - This means that when an opponent shoots the unit, he cannot declare that he is shooting the character alone as if he were a unit on his own, he can only shoot the 'combined' unit.

- But "all rules" doesn't include all rules (obviously, I mean, who would expect "all" to mean "all"), as there is an exception written into the IC rules. An Independent Character joined to a unit "...might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred ...". Ok, so sharing of special rules isn't automatic, but let's have a look at Stubborn for a moment:
"...a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule... - Right, so we only need one model with the rule for it to work, seems straightforward. Now let's have a look at Fleet:
"A unit composed entirely of models with this special rule..." - Ok, again, seems obvious that this wouldn't work if you attached a non-Fleet IC to the unit.
You also have the third category of rules, such as Relentless, which specify Models instead of Units. Again, these obviously are not shared.

So let's have a look at one of the Skyhammer rules:
"First the Fire, then the Blade: {...} Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force have the Relentless special rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn."
Ok, so it doesn't have the "one model" part of Stubborn, but it equally doesn't have the "composed entirely" of Fleet.
Is the attached character a member of the Devastator Squad or Assault Squad? Absolutely. Undeniably.

When the Assault Squad declares it's target to charge, is it the unit or the IC that is declaring a charge? It's the unit. - So the unit has the ability to charge, despite arriving from reserves that turn. When that ability was given to them, the Chaplain was part of the unit.

The other side of the argument will simply cite the "the unit's special rules are not conferred ..." part of the IC rules again, and round and round we go.

Simply put, we will no more reach a 100% consensus than any other large group of people (Parliament, House of Congress, etc. etc.), so it's best to discuss it with your play group and decide. In any tournament this will come up and then the TO's ruling will stand, regardless of what we say here on Dakka.

Quanar detailed it pretty well. However, I would argue this:

 Quanar wrote:
It comes up alot precisely because there are no explicit rules to cover IC's and Formations.

They are sufficiently explicit, some just read more in to them than they need to.

For example, the Stubborn example, some think that it must have a specific phrase that Stubborn carries, never mind the fact that the IC rules never state that phrase is the key. The rule simply states that a unit gets an affect. It applies conditions to trigger the affect (one model must have the rule, taking a Morale Check or Pinning Test), but it is still the unit getting the affect.

Anyway, there are several threads on this subject and should easily be found in a search.

most people who dont think its legal just dont want it to be legal because they feel it is OP.

its legal to attach an IC the the unit, and since the rules benifit "the unit" and the unit is still "the unit" with attached IC's it still benifits from rules that affect "the unit"


in the same way that ob sec units dont lose ob sec when an IC joins, and so on.

ask your TO, this is a game where we get to make up our own rules/comp so people will change rules to suit their idea of what is fair

As easysauce says from a RaW perspective this is pretty clear cut. Want to abuse it in Skyhammer? Add Belial, a Chappy and Calgar to your ASM unit, DS with no scatter and get I5 Powerfists in combat turn 1...

NOT THIS AGAIN...

what I thought:

-When Can an IC join a Formation unit? Same as he would join any other unit.

-Can it being Deep Striked with that unit from reserves? Yes he can.

-Can it Charge the turn it arrives? No, he don't have the rule.
*He is not a part of the formation -> he don't have the rule.
*The unit need all models with that rule to charge.

He is considered part of the unit for all rules purposes. But:
1) He isn't part of the Formation and then can't gain the rule.
2) If he is part of the Formation, then that Formation breaks up because the Formation doesn't allow that IC as part of a Unit in the Formation, then you are not filling the requisit for the formation and then not gaining the rule, since there is no valid formation.

Can it Charge the turn it arrives? No, he don't have the rule. 
*He is not a part of the formation -> he don't have the rule. 
*The unit need all models with that rule to charge. 

The formation gives the rule to the unit. Is he part of the unit?

Why do all models need the rule?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Can it Charge the turn it arrives? No, he don't have the rule. 
*He is not a part of the formation -> he don't have the rule. 
*The unit need all models with that rule to charge. 

The formation gives the rule to the unit. Is he part of the unit?

Why do all models need the rule?

Because special rules don't confer unless they explicitly say so. The Skyhammer rules say Assault Squads can charge, not units in the formation. Assault Squad is a specific entry. It would just be like any other Special Rule - the assault squads gain the First the Fire, then the Blade special Rule. This confers to those models only.

When the IC attaches to the assault squad it is still an Assault Squad. So it can still charge. It does not confer to models because it doesn't say it does. It applies to the unit, as it says it applies to the unit.

 FTGTEvan wrote:
Because special rules don't confer unless they explicitly say so. The Skyhammer rules say Assault Squads can charge, not units in the formation. Assault Squad is a specific entry. It would just be like any other Special Rule - the assault squads gain the First the Fire, then the Blade special Rule. This confers to those models only.

So, Stubborn doesn't confer to the IC? It is the example given as the exception to the Special Rules not conferring, yet it never specifically states: "This includes any Independent Characters joined to the unit" or anything like it. All it says is that the Unit's Leadership is not affected during certain situations.

I've said it in the last two threads, I'll say it here: An Independent Character does not need to have a rule in order to have it affect them. The Independent Characters NEVER get the Skyhammer Formation rules. However, any Special Rule that affects a unit as a whole, like the examples of Stubborn and Blind, will affect any Independent Characters joined to the unit as much as it would any of the unit's Sergeants.

Not to mention ObSec...

 FlingitNow wrote:
Not to mention ObSec...

True. But I'm trying to stick to the examples that the IC rules provide to make the case a bit more solid.

Objective Secured is never provided as an example of how an IC is able to be affected by a unit-directed rule, even though it is as much as Stubborn, Slow and Purposeful, Fearless, Blind, or Zealot. There are other non-Universal Special Rules that also fit in to the same boat as well. Necron Deathmarks have Ethereal Interception which affects the unit, while in the same datasheet have Hunters From Hyperspace which only affect the Deathmark models.

To say that an IC attached to a Skyhammer unit is not affected by those rules is the same as saying they are not affected by Fearless, Stubborn, or Objective Secured, and a waste of everyone's time.

 FlingitNow wrote:
When the IC attaches to the assault squad it is still an Assault Squad. So it can still charge. It does not confer to models because it doesn't say it does. It applies to the unit, as it says it applies to the unit.

That is true, I forgot that, the unit recieve the buff for First the blade etc when it arrives, and the IC arrives as part of the Unit.
But not the other rule (the one that let you re roll failed to hit and to wound, don't remember the name of that one).

Stubborn explicitly says if one model in the unit has the rule the entire unit benefits. A better corollary to the Skyhammer rules would be Furious Charge. If the rule said Assault Squads in this formation gain Furious Charge, the assault marines would get +1S on the charge, the IC would not, because he doesn't have the rule.

The First the Fire, then the Blade special rule works the exact same way. An assault squad would have that listed as a special rule saying these models can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn. The IC has no way of gaining that rule, so if joined to the unit, the unit cannot charge. This would be like 1 model in the unit firing a heavy weapon - the unit cannot charge because that 1 model is forbidden.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:
To say that an IC attached to a Skyhammer unit is not affected by those rules is the same as saying they are not affected by Fearless, Stubborn, or Objective Secured, and a waste of everyone's time.

Except Fearless and Stubborn USRs explicitly state that if any model has the rule, the entire unit gets it.

FTGTEvan assaulting is a unit level decision not a model level decision. If it said Assault Squads got FC then the models get +1S on the charge however individual models don't choose to charge or not. Just like individual models don't control objectives. Units do and the Assault Marine UNITS in this formation can charge and no rule prevents that when you add an IC, just like a unit in a Demi Company doesn't lose ObSec when a character is in the unit and indeed if the character is the only model within 3" of the Objective the unit still controls it over a nonObSec unit.

"Assault squad" is a specific unit entry. They get the rule, the IC doesn't. The rule doesn't say a unit with any model with this rule... Therefore doesn't confer. The entire unit can't charge because one model in the unit isn't allowed to.

ICs gain the benefits and penalties of rules effecting the unit they attached to, per the IC rules. Keep ignoring this, and we'll keep getting threads like this one.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
ICs gain the benefits and penalties of rules effecting the unit they attached to, per the IC rules. Keep ignoring this, and we'll keep getting threads like this one.

SJ

No, they don't. The rule has to explicitly confer. See attached screenshot.

So a pain boy doesn't help out a war boss?

When a rule state it affects the unit, and the IC is a normal member of the unit...

This rule doesn't say it affects the unit, it says the Assault Squad gets a special rule.

 FTGTEvan wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
ICs gain the benefits and penalties of rules effecting the unit they attached to, per the IC rules. Keep ignoring this, and we'll keep getting threads like this one.

SJ

No, they don't. The rule has to explicitly confer. See attached screenshot.

When a rule says "the unit get's x" that is it specifically conferring it

 FTGTEvan wrote:
This rule doesn't say it affects the unit, it says the Assault Squad gets a special rule.

Which is the unit. This specifies the unit the rule refers to.

Now your point is debunked, further quotes are needed to support your position.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 FTGTEvan wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
ICs gain the benefits and penalties of rules effecting the unit they attached to, per the IC rules. Keep ignoring this, and we'll keep getting threads like this one.

SJ

No, they don't. The rule has to explicitly confer. See attached screenshot.

When a rule says "the unit get's x" that is it specifically conferring it

"On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation force have the Relentless special rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn."

Show me where it says units or says it confers?

Read how a dataslate is constructed. The name of the unit names the unit.

FTGTEvan I agree with you in all, BUT, the unit gain the rule AFTER they Deep Strike on the pod, the IC can DS in the pod with them, it is part of the unit at the moment the unit gain that rule (AND THAT SINGLE RULE ALONE)

If we ruled this way it would have to work for ALL formations that give abilities to units:

Take gorepack for example from daemonkin:

-all khorne biker units gain shred for hammer of wrath

-all khorne hound units gain hammer of wrath

Soo...any independant character who joins these units gains these rules? I don't think so....do they? So anything that joins a khorne hound unit gains HoW? Really?

The pain boy/war boss as well as say, sanguinary priest with Dante also in the unit, are good examples. I'd like to hear thoughts on them. If an IC can't benefit from "unit" effects without a special statement, then Dante and that war boss wouldn't have fnp.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
If we ruled this way it would have to work for ALL formations that give abilities to units:

Take gorepack for example from daemonkin:

-all khorne biker units gain shred for hammer of wrath

-all khorne hound units gain hammer of wrath

Soo...any independant character who joins these units gains these rules? I don't think so....do they? So anything that joins a khorne hound unit gains HoW? Really?

No one is saying that model level rules transfer from unit members to ICs. All those are model level rules. However unit level rules still work. Charging is not something a model does it is something a unit does (much like grabbing objectives and why ObSec transfers to attached ICs). For the Sky hammer rule to not transfer it would have to say all Assault Marines gain a special and that special to say "a unit composed entirely of models with this special rule can assault on the turn they arrive by Deep Strike". However that is not how this rule works, it is a unit level rule so cares no about whether the IC has the rule or is part of the Formation.

To be even more specific the rules state assault squads in this formation.

The rules also state no model can be part of two separate formations. The reason this exists is so models can't benefit from rules from multiple formations unless otherwise noted.
First the fire then the blade is a formation rule not a unit rule.

Most tournament organizers rule this doesn't work the only people arguing for this are those who are looking to manipulate rules to their advantage. At this point it doesn't matter what these people say unless you have to deal with that guy at your local club trying to play this BS.

gungo wrote:
To be even more specific the rules state assault squads in this formation.

The rules also state no model can be part of two separate formations. The reason this exists is so models can't benefit from rules from multiple formations unless otherwise noted.
First the fire then the blade is a formation rule not a unit rule.

Most tournament organizers rule this doesn't work the only people arguing for this are those who are looking to manipulate rules to their advantage. At this point it doesn't matter what these people say unless you have to deal with that guy at your local club trying to play this BS.

I don't use skyhammer, nor do I particularly like the idea of facing the version where IC's can join in and assault t1. But from a rules standpoint, it looks to me like it's legal. (In the same cheesy way that several wraithknights are legal etc.)

So tell me again how I'm trying to manipulate the rules to my advantage?