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There's some evidence for that, canonically. Anakin was a 'child of the force' and Obi-wan, qui-gon and Yoda have all become 'one with the force' through special ghost force training. Therefore, she could be a legitimate child of Obi-wan.

 gorgon wrote:
I think here is where we get into a discussion about what "redemption" means. Was Anakin Skywalker redeemed for all his uncountable, terrible acts because he tossed the Emperor down a hole? I think he turned to the light at the very end, but I don't think it represented a settling of accounts or an absolution, even if he got his force ghost.

Anything is possible, but I doubt it. I would say the future writers of the franchise would probably be keen not to simply duplicate RotJ after the complaints of ripping off ANH. And to be honest, I'd rather they did do something different because the moment someone starts saying 'There's still good in him, I can feel it!' they've basically given away the movie. And it will draw comparisons, against which this film will be fighting not only the nostalgia of Star Wars but a genuinely memorable scene. If you want to top it while copying it you scene will have to be absolutely amazing, which means your build up will have to be good. If they manage this, awesome. But I would personally be extremely wary of going down this path when you could do something new.

As to Anakin, he returned to the light side and became one with the Living Force. This doesn't absolve him of his crimes, but I'd equate him to an inmate on death row who has legitimately reformed. Yeah he did some terrible things but when he went to the chair he was- and had he been released would have been- a good man. Much of that had to do with Palpatine's death and seeing his son edge towards the dark side I'd wager. But that's how I see him at least. The mechanics of the Force are odd though. Maybe he got a force ghost purely because he was the chosen one for all we know.

I noticed Captain Phasma didn't get a boob plate either. Damned SJWs!

You know what's funny? Original stormtroopers and clone troopers had scupted pec plates and no one ever gave a damn. I wonder why?

The second half of Rebels, which is the last I think, ties into TFA as well as bridging Revenge of the Sith and A New Hope. Star Wars fans might recognize some of the people in the new trailer as well.

So, I just saw the new flick and thought I would post my thoughts.

Overall, I'd give it a "C". Wayyy better than the prequel movies, but on its own, a pretty mediocre flick.

The flick had some problems. First, the basic plot was pretty much a straight remake of the first movie with a more "hip" array of actors. Ok, I can live with that, but it basically meant that within 10 minutes you knew basically how everything was going to go, and the actors in some cases felt a bit weird. Fin for example is a character from a background one would associate with something like say, the Unsullied from Game of Thrones, taken as a child and brutally reformed into a deadly combatant...but that doesn't come through at all in any way in his portrayal of the character. he comes off more as a normal dude who finds himself getting caught up in events that have nothing to do with him rather than an elite soldier looking to do the right thing and a way out.

Second, the action scenes felt far more "avengers" than "star wars", with dudes being knocked about everywhere, gratuitous fireballs, and "HeroPower" everywhere. The TIE fighter Fin escapes with seems to have monstrously powerful weapons when used on the Star Destroyers, but the other TIE fighters can't seem to hurt squat. Likewise, the X-wings seem to be able to either blow huge chunks out of things or precision target individual infantry with equal capability and no collateral damage. I know Star Wars has always had some of that, but it really felt dialed up to "11".

More to the point, it felt like there was a missing movie somewhere. Who on earth is this "First Order"? What happened to the Empire? What's the difference between "The Resistance" and "The Republic"? Why do we never see anything of the Republic? Who was this "Supreme Grand Master"? And the whole Kylo Ren thing was even more awkward. The whole movie felt like jumping into Game of Thrones at Season 4 having only seen Season 1 and missed Seasons 2 and 3.

Also...when they fire the huge planet-laser thing...who do they actually target? What planets are being blown up? Who are they actually attacking? What significance did that have? There was no explanation of that event. If it was supposed to be Coruscant or something...how was everyone able to see the planet blow up from other star systems?

It was a watchable movie, but not a great one.

To be fair, sometimes it is hard to figure out what all is going on.

Even Kylo Ren had to go take a deeper look at what's happening on the base:

 Vaktathi wrote:
but on its own

Well I think that is part of the problem: this wasn't made to stand on it's own. To much of it requires reading outside sources or is completely designed to set up story lines in later films. I suppose this is both a good thing, as they know people will watch other films, but it also means the film is somewhat shallow as well since it can't stand on its own.

 Vaktathi wrote:
First, the basic plot was pretty much a straight remake of the first movie with a more "hip" array of actors. Ok, I can live with that, but it basically meant that within 10 minutes you knew basically how everything was going to go

Welcome to Star Wars, where every single movie has had a predicable plot.

Second, the action scenes felt far more "avengers" than "star wars", with dudes being knocked about everywhere, gratuitous fireballs, and "HeroPower" everywhere.

The only hand weapon that does that to people is Chewbacca's bowcaster. Every other blaster is pretty normal: dude gets hit, dude falls down. Also, go back and watch the original movies, especially Return of the Jedi; there are explosions and stormtroopers flying everywhere in that movie.

The TIE fighter Fin escapes with seems to have monstrously powerful weapons when used on the Star Destroyers, but the other TIE fighters can't seem to hurt squat.

The TIE fighter Finn and Poe escape with is a Special Forces TIE and has better weapons than a normal TIE fighter. Also, TIE fighters destroy almost all of the X-wings during the climatic battle.

Likewise, the X-wings seem to be able to either blow huge chunks out of things or precision target individual infantry with equal capability and no collateral damage. I know Star Wars has always had some of that, but it really felt dialed up to "11".

The person you saw do that was Poe, the best starfighter pilot in the Resistance (and probably the Galaxy). The normal pilots didn't do any fancy tricks like he did.

 d-usa wrote:
To be fair, sometimes it is hard to figure out what all is going on.

Even Kylo Ren had to go take a deeper look at what's happening on the base:

I saw that this morning and it was a good bit.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
First, the basic plot was pretty much a straight remake of the first movie with a more "hip" array of actors. Ok, I can live with that, but it basically meant that within 10 minutes you knew basically how everything was going to go

Welcome to Star Wars, where every single movie has had a predicable plot.

Not all Star Wars movies had starkly predictable plots, Empire for instance. My bigger issue really was that (much like Into Darkness) they basically rehashed very closely something they'd already done.

Second, the action scenes felt far more "avengers" than "star wars", with dudes being knocked about everywhere, gratuitous fireballs, and "HeroPower" everywhere.

The only hand weapon that does that to people is Chewbacca's bowcaster. Every other blaster is pretty normal: dude gets hit, dude falls down. Also, go back and watch the original movies, especially Return of the Jedi; there are explosions and stormtroopers flying everywhere in that movie.

Right, I acknowledged that, but it just felt really dialed up to 11, making fight scenes feel more "Avengers"-ey than "Star Wars"-ey, and they *really* buffed up the Bowcaster

The TIE fighter Fin escapes with seems to have monstrously powerful weapons when used on the Star Destroyers, but the other TIE fighters can't seem to hurt squat.

The TIE fighter Finn and Poe escape with is a Special Forces TIE and has better weapons than a normal TIE fighter.

Is that like something addressed at all in the movie? I don't recall that being noted. It's possible I missed it, but I certainly didn't get that. Externally, aside from the extra gun on top, it looked pretty much like every other TIE fighter (speaking of which...what happened to the TIE Interceptor, TIE Advanced, and TIE bombers featured in the earlier movies...?). Also...the Stormtroopers weapons in the opening fight seem to be able to disable the X-Wing, but later they don't seem to be capable of doing squat to X-Wings.

Also, TIE fighters destroy almost all of the X-wings during the climatic battle.

Yes, though when there's only like a dozen X-Wings against a planetful of TIE's that was bound to happen, in the earlier engagement I don't think any X-wings were lost (though i may just have missed it).

Likewise, the X-wings seem to be able to either blow huge chunks out of things or precision target individual infantry with equal capability and no collateral damage. I know Star Wars has always had some of that, but it really felt dialed up to "11".

The person you saw do that was Poe, the best starfighter pilot in the Resistance (and probably the Galaxy). The normal pilots didn't do any fancy tricks like he did.

Without being able to go back and watch the scene again just now, you may be right, but I didn't get the sense that such was the case.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Not all Star Wars movies had starkly predictable plots, Empire for instance. My bigger issue really was that (much like Into Darkness) they basically rehashed very closely something they'd already done.

Yes, and no. There were parallels, certainly, but enough difference to keep things fresh, IMO.

Also...the Stormtroopers weapons in the opening fight seem to be able to disable the X-Wing, but later they don't seem to be capable of doing squat to X-Wings.

I would expect that there is a certain amount of difference between shooting at a powered-down fighter sitting on the ground and a fully-shielded fighter in the air.

Without being able to go back and watch the scene again just now, you may be right, but I didn't get the sense that such was the case.

The scene in question was very, very clear that it was focusing on Poe specifically. The other x-wings were pretty much just window dressing.

I may have to re-watch the scene (I don't have it here at my fingertips), but there was a whole lot going on there in general besides just Poe (Po?) what with Fin's melee fight and Han & Chewie doing their thing and whatnot. I did get that yes, a couple shots were specifically geared on Poe, but I didn't get the sense that every ground attack shot was from Poe.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
The TIE fighter Finn and Poe escape with is a Special Forces TIE and has better weapons than a normal TIE fighter. Also, TIE fighters destroy almost all of the X-wings during the climatic battle.

That is a TIE/sf but it's cannons aren't exceptional- they're the same L-s9.6 laser cannons as a regular TIE/fo. There's no good reason they're destroying heavy turrets. Certainly no good reason they should be destroying heavy turrets but failing to inflict any notable damage on civilian freighter. Especially one that doesn't have shields up.

What's really lazy about the TIE/sf though is that it's tailored to the scene. Normal TIEs lack the extra seat (or ejector seat), hyperdrive and most notably life support. It's literally popped into existence to serve the dramatic escape plot.

 Kojiro wrote:

What's really lazy about the TIE/sf though is that it's tailored to the scene. Normal TIEs lack the extra seat (or ejector seat), hyperdrive and most notably life support. It's literally popped into existence to serve the dramatic escape plot.

That's one way of looking at it.

Alternatively, while Ties historically had a single seat and no life support, 30 years on at least some models have a gunner's seat and life support systems, and Finn specifically chose that model to steal for just that reason, as a conventional tie would be a fairly poor escape vehicle...

 d-usa wrote:
To be fair, sometimes it is hard to figure out what all is going on.

Even Kylo Ren had to go take a deeper look at what's happening on the base:

ROFL

That's gotta be one of the best SNL skits ever.

 insaniak wrote:
Alternatively, while Ties historically had a single seat and no life support, 30 years on at least some models have a gunner's seat and life support systems, and Finn specifically chose that model to steal for just that reason, as a conventional tie would be a fairly poor escape vehicle...

What exactly is your point and how does it relate to anything I said? My complaint wasn't about Finn choosing a TIE/sf over a TIE/fo.

The point was that what you saw as 'lazy', I saw as a logical plot point.

Just because the character logically exploits the lazy writing doesn't excuse it. It would be terrible writing to put such a vehicle in and then have them not use it. But it's lazy to put your characters in peril then provide them- literally with nothing more than waking over to it- the means of escaping that peril. It wouldn't be so bad if the y showed up again but they don't. Even the two ties chasing the Falcon aren't /sf models- despite having spec ops pilots.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I may have to re-watch the scene (I don't have it here at my fingertips), but there was a whole lot going on there in general besides just Poe (Po?) what with Fin's melee fight and Han & Chewie doing their thing and whatnot. I did get that yes, a couple shots were specifically geared on Poe, but I didn't get the sense that every ground attack shot was from Poe.

I've seen the movie five times; Poe is the pilot that shoots the stormtroopers around Finn, Han, and Chewie to save them.

Blasters have a stun mode. Perhaps the heavy blasters on an X-Wing or TIE fighter, comparable to a 20mm or 30mm cannon on a modern jet fighters, have got a low power mode and a high power mode.

 Kojiro wrote:
But it's lazy to put your characters in peril then provide them- literally with nothing more than waking over to it- the means of escaping that peril.

I would say that it's worse when that means of escaping comes to them:

It wouldn't be so bad if the y showed up again but they don't.

Except for the fact that they do.

 Kojiro wrote:
Just because the character logically exploits the lazy writing doesn't excuse it.

Ah. I think I must have missed the part where Finn and Poe stop to discuss the script, and base their ship selection on that.


That would explain it.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
I would say that it's worse when that means of escaping comes to them:

Yes, also lazy. What's your point?

Except for the fact that they do.

And when they do, they completely forget to utilise their abilities. No turret weapons, no ejecting pilots, no surviving due to heavy shields, no mag launchers. They behave exactly like every other TIE fighter. They're special only when the plot demands it. That's inconsistent and lazy.

 insaniak wrote:

Ah. I think I must have missed the part where Finn and Poe stop to discuss the script, and base their ship selection on that.

That would explain it.

I can't tell if you're deliberately missing the point or just failing to understand. This has nothing to do with Finn choosing the /sf. Which I'm sure I said earlier but, well, apparently you didn't understand 'My complaint wasn't about Finn choosing a TIE/sf over a TIE/fo.'

Look, if you're fine with writers just revealing to the audience the existence of special circumstances, items or events (or TIE fighters) at the moment of need, with no exposition, consistency or foreshadowing that's fine. Like away. It's your bar, set it wherever you like, but mine will be at a higher standard.

I'm pretty sure that during the dogfight over Maz's palace, you see a couple of TIEs using the rear-firing turrets to try and take out the X-wings tailing them.

There's nothing lazy about it, really. Finn chooses that ship as part of his plan because it had those features that facilitated an escape, if there had only been single-seat TIEs with no way to disable the turrets on the Star Destroyer, he wouldn't have escaped in that particular way.

It IS lazy writing, but even worse than that it's lazy design. Why does the special forces TIE look exactly like the boring vanilla TIE (except for the pylons and extra guns) when it could have been as interesting and different as the TIE bomber or TIE Advanced? It would even help sell more toys. I can't wrap my mind around why it needed to look like every other TIE when it should have been awesome.
Plus, distinctive, more menacing SF TIEs would have really upped the ante when they showed up during the final battle.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Writing that isn't lazy would have them steal a shuttle...after sabotaging the TIEs or something. It would have been more tense, too. Two seater ties just reek of Abrams wanting to have the heroes-in-a-TIE scene more than he wanted good drama.

I think it's reasonable to assume that the TIE/SF is a modification of the standard First Order TIE, and thus looks the same, unlike, say, an Interceptor which was a totally different design to the standard TIE. Thus, they share the same design, the alterations are on the inside and the turret/antennae on the exterior. You can see examples of the same in modern cars/planes/whatever, it's hardly a massive leap of logic.

In many ways, I'd say it makes more sense than the Interceptor turning up in RotJ with no explanation other than 'it's a TIE Fighter that looks slightly different, and you can buy a toy version!'.

 Paradigm wrote:
There's nothing lazy about it, really. Finn chooses that ship as part of his plan because it had those features that facilitated an escape, if there had only been single-seat TIEs with no way to disable the turrets on the Star Destroyer, he wouldn't have escaped in that particular way.

And choosing silver bullets over lead ones is the smart choice of any character facing a werewolf. The problem isn't the choice. The problem is silver bullets shouldn't just be lying around to be chosen. Not without some foreshadowing or exposition to say why the special item- perfectly tailored to the characters needs- happens to be present.

All they'd have needed to do was show a /sf hovering over the Jakku villiage. Some pilots without helmets talking, like Apache gunship crews. 'There's on fleeing north!' 'I'm on it' says the gunner as we see the turret swivel and cut down a villager. Done. We've established that suitable escape vehicles for later exist without compromising anything. Cut the useless flamethrower trooper who added nothing to the plot and you're set.

So, the FO vanilla TIEs are all roomier than Buicks? That makes less sense than the Empire's version of the F-4 being followed by an F-15, F-18, etc. The design lineage with refinements and alternate hulls is pretty easy to accept since it happens in real life. I suppose the SF TIE could be like an F-15E version, but the extra rear facing weapons make no sense in a dedicated fighter, and a hollowed out TIE would have even less room for bomb or wild weasel gak in it.

 Kojiro wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
There's nothing lazy about it, really. Finn chooses that ship as part of his plan because it had those features that facilitated an escape, if there had only been single-seat TIEs with no way to disable the turrets on the Star Destroyer, he wouldn't have escaped in that particular way.

And choosing silver bullets over lead ones is the smart choice of any character facing a werewolf. The problem isn't the choice. The problem is silver bullets shouldn't just be lying around to be chosen. Not without some foreshadowing or exposition to say why the special item- perfectly tailored to the characters needs- happens to be present.

All they'd have needed to do was show a /sf hovering over the Jakku villiage. Some pilots without helmets talking, like Apache gunship crews. 'There's on fleeing north!' 'I'm on it' says the gunner as we see the turret swivel and cut down a villager. Done. We've established that suitable escape vehicles for later exist without compromising anything. Cut the useless flamethrower trooper who added nothing to the plot and you're set.

But why is that necessary? We, the audience don't need it spelled out to us; Finn is the only one that needs to know it's there, to facilitate his escape, and he does. There's no requirement for everything to be spelled out; do we need a shot explaining how TIE Fighters can fly in the first place? Or how a lightsaber works, and why Kylo Ren's is different?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
So, the FO vanilla TIEs are all roomier than Buicks? That makes less sense than the Empire's version of the F-4 being followed by an F-15, F-18, etc. The design lineage with refinements and alternate hulls is pretty easy to accept since it happens in real life. I suppose the SF TIE could be like an F-15E version, but the extra rear facing weapons make no sense in a dedicated fighter, and a hollowed out TIE would have even less room for bomb or wild weasel gak in it.

In Rebels, there's an original Empire TIE that easily accommodates two in the cockpit. The reason for the turret is that whoever designed the ship felt the purpose they had in mind might require a turret. The Special Forces title suggests it is not a dedicated fighter; it might be used for infiltration, for autonomous operation, for recon, all kinds of stuff where a turret makes up for the lack of covering fire from other ships.

 Paradigm wrote:

But why is that necessary? We, the audience don't need it spelled out to us; Finn is the only one that needs to know it's there, to facilitate his escape, and he does. There's no requirement for everything to be spelled out; do we need a shot explaining how TIE Fighters can fly in the first place? Or how a lightsaber works, and why Kylo Ren's is different?

Because the vehicle is a special version. Special things require explanation, either in the form of exposition, demonstration or dialogue. Otherwise you risk the audience seeing the hand of god/writer, which they should never do.

And if they're going to show us this guy:

then he should be piloting one of these special TIEs- his red helmet stripes do indicate after all he's a TIE/sf pilot. But when the plot suits- or when concussion missiles, heavy shields and a turret turbo laser cracking turret aren't convenient- the /sf is nowhere to be found. To have the TIE/sf show up to save the character but then be strangely absent to secure the extremely important BB-8 is nothing but poor writing.

 Kojiro wrote:
But when the plot suits- or when concussion missiles, heavy shields and a turret turbo laser cracking turret aren't convenient- the /sf is nowhere to be found.

Except that is. Your failure to realize that doesn't make it any less true.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Kojiro wrote:
But when the plot suits- or when concussion missiles, heavy shields and a turret turbo laser cracking turret aren't convenient- the /sf is nowhere to be found.

Except that is. Your failure to realize that doesn't make it any less true.

When was the special Tie Fighters abilities ever used except when the heroes needed them?

I could only watch this film once so I may have missed something. The issue he brings up was glaring for me too since Tie Fighters did horribly the rest of the film.