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2016/02/04 21:40:57
Subject: Re:Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
I've made it clear enough what I *don't* think are valid criticisms of the film. And I actually like that we're left with a lot of mysteries and questions at the end.
But do I think it could have used just 30-45 seconds of exposition about the current state of the galaxy? Yes...I do. I think it would have grounded some things better, and if kept very brief wouldn't have hurt the pace of the film.
Hulksmash wrote: I don't think you HAVE to go out and get stuff to get the big picture.
Except so many basic questions have been, and can only be, answered with "well in the book/comic/ect it explains X". Not obscure stuff either, but basic things that should have been answered and would have taken "30 to 45 seconds of exposition".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/04 22:03:27
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2016/02/04 22:31:01
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Hulksmash wrote: I don't think you HAVE to go out and get stuff to get the big picture.
Except so many basic questions have been, and can only be, answered with "well in the book/comic/ect it explains X". Not obscure stuff either, but basic things that should have been answered and would have taken "30 to 45 seconds of exposition".
But for the most part, they're things that you don't actually need answers for. We know, for example, that Leia is on the out with the Republic, because it's mentioned. We don't actually need to know why... that's a part of a different story.
The original trilogy also had little references to the galaxy at large scattered throughout, that were only fleshed out later. That's a part of what makes it feel like a part of a bigger setting... you don't have to understand the complete backstory behind those references, they just help to reinforce that there is more to the setting than what is shown in the movie.
2016/02/09 00:58:27
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
So, I finally saw this movie over the past weekend. Not much else to say than what has been said already. I really, really liked it, I like how they kept a lot of the stuff in the background, to let fans of the old EU debate and ponder on stuff, I really liked the call-backs to the original trilogy peppered throughout.
What I liked most? That, I think, was finally seeing Storm Troopers be competent, terrifying soldiers, justifying how they maintained an iron grip on the galaxy for so long.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2016/02/09 18:17:28
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Alpharius wrote: They 'only' had a iron grip on the galaxy for about 16 years, give or take...
Which is itself a miraculous feat, if the old numbers for stormtroopers are still accurate. Or my personal view that the general civilian population in Star Wars are complete wussies who wouldn't even dream of resisting oppression even when they outnumber the oppressor by many orders of magnitude.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Alpharius wrote: They 'only' had a iron grip on the galaxy for about 16 years, give or take...
Which is itself a miraculous feat, if the old numbers for stormtroopers are still accurate. Or my personal view that the general civilian population in Star Wars are complete wussies who wouldn't even dream of resisting oppression even when they outnumber the oppressor by many orders of magnitude.
Well, up until A New Hope there was the Imperial Senate which gave the whole system the veneer of democracy as well as bureaucracy which allowed people to think their problems were being heard, without anything having to be done about them.
The Senate was disposed of when the first Death Star came online. And really, what planetary population would go into open revolt with the threat of their entire planet being destroyed?
It doesn't matter if your planetary population outnumbers the Imperial Navy if the Imperial Navy can just bomb your whole planet into rubble or, if there is currently an operational Death Star, wipe it completely from the face of the galaxy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/09 19:21:19
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2016/02/09 19:55:33
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
The Death Star was never properly demonstrated.
It was a total secret till it was fully operational, and it was destroyed almost immediately afterwards. Its propaganda value would have been minimal.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I'm planning on running a Star Wars RPG in the near future, set in the weeks after Yavin.
I'm planning on balancing the plot points of the aftermath of the Rebellion defeating the Empire by destroying the Death Star versus a 'realistic' reaction amongst the populace upon finding out that The Empire destroyed Alderaan. - Which is a pretty damn huge deal, really.
2016/02/09 23:18:09
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Compel wrote: I'm planning on running a Star Wars RPG in the near future, set in the weeks after Yavin.
I'm planning on balancing the plot points of the aftermath of the Rebellion defeating the Empire by destroying the Death Star versus a 'realistic' reaction amongst the populace upon finding out that The Empire destroyed Alderaan. - Which is a pretty damn huge deal, really.
According to the X-Wing comics and novels, the Empire swung into overdrive with its propaganda immediately following the destruction of Alderaan. They claimed that Alderaan was accidentally destroyed by the Rebellion when it tested the new super weapon it had developed to use against the Death Star. Basically, not only did the Empire pretend they didn't blow up Alderaan, they also pretended that the Death Star wasn't destroyed by something as embarrassing as a single strike by 30 or so star fighters. Of course, the higher-ups in the Empire knew the reality, and an awful lot of regular people suspected the truth about Alderaan/Battle of Yavin but a lot of people were willing to accept that the Empire was being honest because they believed the Empire were the 'good guys'.
Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?)
2016/02/09 23:18:17
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
It was a total secret till it was fully operational, and it was destroyed almost immediately afterwards. Its propaganda value would have been minimal.
The (now defunct) EU actually mentioned that given the massive failure of the first Death Star, the Emperor used it for reverse propaganda instead - blaming the destruction of Alderaan on the Rebellion, and claiming that it was a Rebel superweapon that was destroyed at Yavin.
It was only ever mentioned in passing, though, so they never really went into any detail on how that story was accepted by the Galaxy at large.
2016/02/09 23:35:29
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
I especially enjoyed the Poe/Finn Step Brothers send up at the end.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2016/02/10 10:16:31
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Hulksmash wrote: I don't think you HAVE to go out and get stuff to get the big picture.
Except so many basic questions have been, and can only be, answered with "well in the book/comic/ect it explains X". Not obscure stuff either, but basic things that should have been answered and would have taken "30 to 45 seconds of exposition".
But for the most part, they're things that you don't actually need answers for. We know, for example, that Leia is on the out with the Republic, because it's mentioned. We don't actually need to know why... that's a part of a different story.
The original trilogy also had little references to the galaxy at large scattered throughout, that were only fleshed out later. That's a part of what makes it feel like a part of a bigger setting... you don't have to understand the complete backstory behind those references, they just help to reinforce that there is more to the setting than what is shown in the movie.
I strongly disagree with this. Nothing happens in a book or a film, or a comic or whatever, by accident. It's in there, or it's not in there because the author makes that choice. The old cliche about books and charcters writing themselves is complete horsegak IMO.
TFA awakens suffers becuase the script writer wasn't up to it. Leia is one of the most pivotal chracters in the canon, and yet, her rift with the Republic is not worth a mention?
Chewie has been involved in dozens of life or death situations with Leia, but she barely acknowledges him?
In all their years travelling together, Han has never taken it upon himself to fire chewie's crossbow?
I could go on and on, but it's very poor scripting, and a very poor plot that makes no sense.
Now, your argument is that in a new hope, backstroy was alluded to, but wasn't expanded until later, which is a valid point, but there was no need to flesh out the background. When you see Darth Vader, when you see the death star, and when you listen to Pet Cushing talk about the senate being abolished, you know who the rebels are, becuase you know what evil is.
The rebels need no explanation to why their rebelling - it's crystal clear.
Hell, as heretical as it might be, I'm strongly veering towards Phantom Menace being better than TFA. It was poorly executed, but it had a coherent story, a new look, tried to move things on, and NEVER reduced itself to being a fan fiction remake, which what TFA is IMO.
Hulksmash wrote: I don't think you HAVE to go out and get stuff to get the big picture.
Except so many basic questions have been, and can only be, answered with "well in the book/comic/ect it explains X". Not obscure stuff either, but basic things that should have been answered and would have taken "30 to 45 seconds of exposition".
The cynic in me thinks it's just another cash grab.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/10 10:18:53
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2016/02/10 10:24:34
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
It's pretty hard to take anything you say seriously when you follow it up with that. That is the nerd equivalent of a Donald Trump sound bite; the perfect example of Poe's Law.
There is just no fething universe where that is even remotely true on any level.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2016/02/10 10:51:39
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
It's pretty hard to take anything you say seriously when you follow it up with that. That is the nerd equivalent of a Donald Trump sound bite; the perfect example of Poe's Law.
There is just no fething universe where that is even remotely true on any level.
I base my opinion on repeat viewings of TFA and Phantom Menace.
First and foremost, PH was poorly executed, and contained a character that deserved to be covered in chilli sauce and thrown into a bear pit.
BUT Lucas's heart was in the right place, he tried to do something different. We got a coherent story, we got some good John Williams music, we got a new aesthetic for the old Republic (new planets, a sleeker look as opposed to the used future style)
We got something that alhough was hobbled by dodgy acting, it felt like a Star Wars film.
And then we have TFA, and it feels like a very expensive fan fiction film.
It's loud from start to finish, so there's no silence to build tension.
The plot is lifted straight from a new hope.
The physics makes no sense, even for a star wars film.
The music has been phoned in.
The villian kills all tension when he takes off his mask. His lightsaber is more a danger to him than his opponents.
The main character is a Mary Sue.
Han Solo's death could be seen from a mile away
And the new 'Boba Fett' is just as useless as the old Boba.
Phantom Menance is not a good film, but it tried to be a star wars film in a series that admitedly, was not exactly renown for sparkling dialouge or originality, but i'ts heart was in the right place.
You cared for Qui-Gonn, Anakain's eventual fall intrigued people as it panned out, and it was interesting to see the young Obi Wan's progression from fiery rookie to seasoned master. I feel no empathy towards the new batch of characters.
We have a man who's been indoctrinated by the order his whole life, but he interacts normally with people...
The new Han Solo has none of the humour of the old.
Mary Sue is to perfect to care about.
And Kylo Ren...it's a shrug of the shoulders. He has neither the presense of Darth Vader to make him memorable, nor the rawness of a Luke Skywalker to make you sympathetic toawards him. They took the mask off to early. From that monent, his menace vanishes, the tension flags.
As I said 40 pages ago, JJ Abrams has been given two of sci-fi's most famous fraqnchises, and we get very expensive fan fiction remakes.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2016/02/10 11:08:22
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Every single one of those worn out "criticisms" has been addressed multiple times by myself and many other people. Frankly, everything you wrote is just lazy, poorly thought out attempts at honest criticism.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/10 11:08:40
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2016/02/10 11:09:53
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
There are scenes about Leia's backstory, but they were cut because of time.
Lika Maz's backstory, C3PO's 'getting a red arm' backstory and another sidestory involving one of Leia's officers talking to the New Republic on her behalf.
Like all movies, stuff is cut because of time. Abrams (rightfully) wanted to focus more on the stories of the new characters and the main story-line rather than secondary and tertiary plot lines involving old characters or side characters that aren't terribly required by the main plot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/10 12:06:48
2016/02/10 11:56:53
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
It's pretty hard to take anything you say seriously when you follow it up with that. That is the nerd equivalent of a Donald Trump sound bite; the perfect example of Poe's Law.
There is just no fething universe where that is even remotely true on any level.
I base my opinion on repeat viewings of TFA and Phantom Menace.
First and foremost, PH was poorly executed, and contained a character that deserved to be covered in chilli sauce and thrown into a bear pit.
BUT Lucas's heart was in the right place, he tried to do something different. We got a coherent story, we got some good John Williams music, we got a new aesthetic for the old Republic (new planets, a sleeker look as opposed to the used future style)
We got something that alhough was hobbled by dodgy acting, it felt like a Star Wars film.
And then we have TFA, and it feels like a very expensive fan fiction film.
It's loud from start to finish, so there's no silence to build tension.
The plot is lifted straight from a new hope.
The physics makes no sense, even for a star wars film.
The music has been phoned in.
The villian kills all tension when he takes off his mask. His lightsaber is more a danger to him than his opponents.
The main character is a Mary Sue.
Han Solo's death could be seen from a mile away
And the new 'Boba Fett' is just as useless as the old Boba.
Phantom Menance is not a good film, but it tried to be a star wars film in a series that admitedly, was not exactly renown for sparkling dialouge or originality, but i'ts heart was in the right place.
You cared for Qui-Gonn, Anakain's eventual fall intrigued people as it panned out, and it was interesting to see the young Obi Wan's progression from fiery rookie to seasoned master. I feel no empathy towards the new batch of characters.
We have a man who's been indoctrinated by the order his whole life, but he interacts normally with people...
The new Han Solo has none of the humour of the old.
Mary Sue is to perfect to care about.
And Kylo Ren...it's a shrug of the shoulders. He has neither the presense of Darth Vader to make him memorable, nor the rawness of a Luke Skywalker to make you sympathetic toawards him. They took the mask off to early. From that monent, his menace vanishes, the tension flags.
As I said 40 pages ago, JJ Abrams has been given two of sci-fi's most famous fraqnchises, and we get very expensive fan fiction remakes.
And yet, as evidenced by most reviews, your opinion is shared by a small minority of viewers. TFA has one of the review scores out of any Star Wars to date. Are you telling me every single one of those reviews is wrong, while yours is the only correct choice? Yeah...no. You're always entitled to your opinion. Just understand that not many others share it. Also, calling TPM better than TFA does make it hard to take anything you say seriously.
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.
2016/02/10 12:05:14
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Who goes to a Star Wars film for a coherent story? It isn't Shakespeare, it's a high-pace science fantasy action film.
Perhaps the film doesn't explain Leia's fall-out with the Republic, but it doesn't explain the Republic either. I didn't actually glean that Leia had fallen out with the Republic, despite two viewings, so I can't find much fault that it wasn't explained.
I... kinda liked TPM better than TFA. Or at least found it more interesting. I mean, TPM had:
Duel of the Fates
an underwater world, and some big fish to populate it
a city world
a droid army, with some curiously designed motherships
the Jedi Order as an established organization, which is contrasted by the Sith "Rule of Two"
a chrome SR-71
jet-engine chariot races
Sebulba and his weird alien anatomy
a joyful reprise of The Emperor's theme
Meanwhile TFA was distractingly "the greatest hits from the OT". By the time we got thru Maz's whole scene (basically Yoda but at the cantina) I was really hoping for something *new*, at which point the film introduces a third Death Star. (which goes and destroys a planet the film never bothered to make you care for)
You're entitled to your opinion. And honestly, there are probably a decent number of people who were raised on the prequels and EU, grew to like prequel-y and EU-y stuff, and have come to consider THAT to be Star Wars. I have radically different feelings about this, but you can like what you like and nothing I say is going to change that.
HOWEVER, if you really think that there's nothing new coming out of TFA...it's hard for me to think that you paid attention to the movie or understood what you were watching. TFA launched MANY developments, potential storylines and unanswered questions. They're all wrapped up in familiar SW elements. But if one looks past that veneer, there are a lot of interesting things going on.
Not that people can be expected to do that in today's instant, kneejerk reaction culture.
Kilkrazy wrote: Who goes to a Star Wars film for a coherent story? It isn't Shakespeare, it's a high-pace science fantasy action film.
Perhaps the film doesn't explain Leia's fall-out with the Republic, but it doesn't explain the Republic either. I didn't actually glean that Leia had fallen out with the Republic, despite two viewings, so I can't find much fault that it wasn't explained.
I don't know much you know about the Bard, Kilkrazy, but I was pleasantly surprised to discover a few years ago, that the Bard's original audience was working class people - his plays were the Coronation Street of their day.
Now, in Britain, as you know, going to the theatre is mainly seen as a middle class thing, but the Bard is living proof that you can create a profound piece of art, and be popular, which is what he originally did. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Hell, ESB is evidence that Star Wars can create a good story and be popular. TFA is none of these things.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gorgon wrote: You're entitled to your opinion. And honestly, there are probably a decent number of people who were raised on the prequels and EU, grew to like prequel-y and EU-y stuff, and have come to consider THAT to be Star Wars. I have radically different feelings about this, but you can like what you like and nothing I say is going to change that.
HOWEVER, if you really think that there's nothing new coming out of TFA...it's hard for me to think that you paid attention to the movie or understood what you were watching. TFA launched MANY developments, potential storylines and unanswered questions. They're all wrapped up in familiar SW elements. But if one looks past that veneer, there are a lot of interesting things going on.
Not that people can be expected to do that in today's instant, kneejerk reaction culture.
A fair point, but I can't be the only person that walks into the cinema and dislikes being treated like an idiot?
So when I see X-wings making an attack run on a death star (again) or see a droid travelling across a desert, with a secret (again) or see a bad guy with a mask and altered voice (again) or see stormtroopers destroy a village (again) or Darth Hologram making an appearance (again) and a main character escaping a desert world (again)
I can't be the only person that feels cheated? There was no tension. Did it surprise anybody that the death star was destroyed in TFA? Hell no, unless you'd been living in the Amazonia jungle for 50 years.
Bad as it was, phantom Menace at least tried to be different.
It's pretty hard to take anything you say seriously when you follow it up with that. That is the nerd equivalent of a Donald Trump sound bite; the perfect example of Poe's Law.
There is just no fething universe where that is even remotely true on any level.
I base my opinion on repeat viewings of TFA and Phantom Menace.
First and foremost, PH was poorly executed, and contained a character that deserved to be covered in chilli sauce and thrown into a bear pit.
BUT Lucas's heart was in the right place, he tried to do something different. We got a coherent story, we got some good John Williams music, we got a new aesthetic for the old Republic (new planets, a sleeker look as opposed to the used future style)
We got something that alhough was hobbled by dodgy acting, it felt like a Star Wars film.
And then we have TFA, and it feels like a very expensive fan fiction film.
It's loud from start to finish, so there's no silence to build tension.
The plot is lifted straight from a new hope.
The physics makes no sense, even for a star wars film.
The music has been phoned in.
The villian kills all tension when he takes off his mask. His lightsaber is more a danger to him than his opponents.
The main character is a Mary Sue.
Han Solo's death could be seen from a mile away
And the new 'Boba Fett' is just as useless as the old Boba.
Phantom Menance is not a good film, but it tried to be a star wars film in a series that admitedly, was not exactly renown for sparkling dialouge or originality, but i'ts heart was in the right place.
You cared for Qui-Gonn, Anakain's eventual fall intrigued people as it panned out, and it was interesting to see the young Obi Wan's progression from fiery rookie to seasoned master. I feel no empathy towards the new batch of characters.
We have a man who's been indoctrinated by the order his whole life, but he interacts normally with people...
The new Han Solo has none of the humour of the old.
Mary Sue is to perfect to care about.
And Kylo Ren...it's a shrug of the shoulders. He has neither the presense of Darth Vader to make him memorable, nor the rawness of a Luke Skywalker to make you sympathetic toawards him. They took the mask off to early. From that monent, his menace vanishes, the tension flags.
As I said 40 pages ago, JJ Abrams has been given two of sci-fi's most famous fraqnchises, and we get very expensive fan fiction remakes.
And yet, as evidenced by most reviews, your opinion is shared by a small minority of viewers. TFA has one of the review scores out of any Star Wars to date. Are you telling me every single one of those reviews is wrong, while yours is the only correct choice? Yeah...no. You're always entitled to your opinion. Just understand that not many others share it. Also, calling TPM better than TFA does make it hard to take anything you say seriously.
My argument is that PH is a bad film, I don't deny that, but it's still better than TFA, as its ethos is truer to the originals.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Matt.Kingsley wrote: There are scenes about Leia's backstory, but they were cut because of time.
Lika Maz's backstory, C3PO's 'getting a red arm' backstory and another sidestory involving one of Leia's officers talking to the New Republic on her behalf.
Like all movies, stuff is cut because of time. Abrams (rightfully) wanted to focus more on the stories of the new characters and the main story-line rather than secondary and tertiary plot lines involving old characters or side characters that aren't terribly required by the main plot.
Like I said, nothing happens in a film by accident. If there wasn't enough time, the fault lies at the door of the director.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/02/10 16:23:10
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2016/02/10 19:44:52
Subject: Star Wars The Force Awakens -- full of spoilers so beware !
Apparently the Lego Star Wars game for TFA is going to bridge the gap between ROTJ and TFA, explaining such things as Leia's split from the Republic and 3POs red arm.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
And I actually like that we're left with a lot of mysteries and questions at the end.
I think it would have grounded some things better, and if kept very brief wouldn't have hurt the pace of the film.
Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?) 
