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Pretty self explanatory. This question pokes me since a couple of weeks because I started painting Rhinos and Razorback for my Deathwatch and while working on them, I wondered why the Adeptus Astartes puts its precious soldiers in such a weak basket? I know they were designed during the Great Crusade, when Legions were far more numerous and productions runs a bigger problem, but still, it seems passengers' safety was not the first concern of Rhino's inventor.

Forgeworlds and then Chapter Forges did not find any problem in having costly Space Marines in a tank which can be torn appart by massed heavy bolter/multilaser fire. It's not like these weapons are rare on the battlefield plus there are plenty of more powerful things in the universe which can deliver bigger firepower.

Moreover, the AM gave the Chimera to the IG despite the fact its front armor and firepower is superior to the Rhino. Chimera is also amphibious and has a com-system to communicate with dismounted infantry, which Rhino has not. Game-wise, I know they are only 35pts but, shouldn't the Astartes get the best gear while letting the cheap/not-that-great stuff to normal imperial troops? Don't we always hear in the fluff that Marines deserve the best

If you have fluff explanations, I'd be glad to hear it folks!

Fluff-wise, Rhinos are easier to deploy, easier to maintain, and easier to modify than Chimeras. This fits with the Space Marine's rapid response/redeployment tactics and strategies. Chimeras require more supplies to keep running, and if they break down they take longer to repair. They're larger and heavier too, making it more difficult to deploy them in a rapid-response team. Space Marines are better when on foot than in a box, that box is just meant to get them from Point A to Point B as quickly as possible, while breaking down as little as possible.

Rules-wise, it's a holdover from the past. Some decision was made in 3rd edition to give Rhinos to Space Marines, and it just kind of stuck. The fluff too has been slowly moving from Space Marines being "the best of the best" to "always where they're needed, and yeah they're pretty fantastic too" given that there are so many best of best forces now out there.

Essentially, it's an APC, not a tank. The IoM, contrary to what the general "has unlimited resources" line goes, doesn't have unlimited resources. I mean, you could put every single marine in his own Land Raider, but logistically it's impossible. Rhinos are renowned for being able to build out of many materials, making them very versatile and value for money. I'm not really addressing the Rhino vs. Chimera very well, but it's my 2 cents.

The Space Marine's normal weapon is the Boltgun, Str4. AP11 means that it doesn't need to fear a Marine's basic gun, unless it is behind it, in which case things are already going south.

Yarium and Chaz, I do appreciate your quick responses!

But according to IG codexes, its vehicules too must respond to maintenance, mass production and simplicity requirements because it must be be provided to many many units at the same time. And despite fulfilling the "transport" requirement, the Razorback (IFV version) is still pretty exposed to medium strengh weapons. Tactical Marines are great but very often, they would not refuse more support capacity and durability, since their transport die quite frequently. Sure, Chapters have limited resources but isnt that a reason to build more solid vehicules so they would not have to replace them after each battle? I'm certainly oversimplifying here but you got my point

I am simply poked by the philosophy of the Rhino, which I find not very well in accordance with SM doctrines, and of course, I'm not expecting Land Raiders for every Tac Marine !

 carldooley wrote:
The Space Marine's normal weapon is the Boltgun, Str4. AP11 means that it doesn't need to fear a Marine's basic gun, unless it is behind it, in which case things are already going south.

Ummmm......what?

 sub-zero wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
The Space Marine's normal weapon is the Boltgun, Str4. AP11 means that it doesn't need to fear a Marine's basic gun, unless it is behind it, in which case things are already going south.

Ummmm......what?

just trying to justify game design.

Well, from a rules perspective, a Rhino can repair itself if it gets immobilized. A Chimera can't. Battles in 40k take place over, what, 2 minutes "real" time? 5 minutes? 10 minutes tops? Can you imagine just how much time YOU would save if you could almost always fix your car after 10 minutes, no matter the damage to it, whenever it broke down?

Now apply that to the armies in question. The Imperial Guard aren't blitzkrieg'ing it here. If it takes them 30 minutes to repair a vehicle, they're still on the front line. If a Space Marine had to spend 30 minutes fixing a vehicle, they're far behind! Space Marines are built to be where they're needed as fast as possible (hence Drop Pods), so the Rhinos, by being extremely quick to repair and keep going, fit that philosophy much better, even at the cost of some armour.

 RazgrizOne wrote:

I am simply poked by the philosophy of the Rhino, which I find not very well in accordance with SM doctrines, and of course, I'm not expecting Land Raiders for every Tac Marine !

I think it's in accordance with Astartes battle doctrine, just not in accordance with our idea of durable marine kit. The Rhino is not a fighting vehicle. Full stop.

It's a transport. It's meant to move a squad quickly, with enough protection to more or less ignore small arms, non-direct explosions, and (I would imagine) IEDs. If the enemy has anti-tank weapons, or even mid strength weapons, the squad inside is much better off deploying. The marines fight on foot, not in their transports. If the rhino were uparmored, it would help for vehicular assaults on prepared positions, but the Astartes already have three of the best options for exactly that mission profile: landraiders, drop pods, and Thunderhaks. (also Storm Ravens, I guess. sigh).

The Chimera is built for a very different type of warfare. It's meant to allow a squad inside to fight, while reasonably safe in a pitched battle. It has the weaponry and armor to allow that. However, the Chimera is less airmobile, it would likely struggle to hold a full squad of marines, and I'd bet heavily that it's cruising speed and range are both lower.

Well, from a rules perspective, a Rhino can repair itself if it gets immobilized. A Chimera can't. Battles in 40k take place over, what, 2 minutes "real" time? 5 minutes? 10 minutes tops? Can you imagine just how much time YOU would save if you could almost always fix your car after 10 minutes, no matter the damage to it, whenever it broke down?

You sir got a point. But we can always argue that even if you fight for 5/10 minutes against Tau FW, Scatbikes, rebel HWT, it's enough time to them to glance your Rhino to death. And when your car explodes, well, its ability to repair itself is quite of limited use.

It's a transport. It's meant to move a squad quickly, with enough protection to more or less ignore small arms, non-direct explosions, and (I would imagine) IEDs. If the enemy has anti-tank weapons, or even mid strength weapons, the squad inside is much better off deploying. The marines fight on foot, not in their transports. If the rhino were uparmored, it would help for vehicular assaults on prepared positions, but the Astartes already have three of the best options for exactly that mission profile: landraiders, drop pods, and Thunderhaks. (also Storm Ravens, I guess. sigh).

The Chimera is built for a very different type of warfare. It's meant to allow a squad inside to fight, while reasonably safe in a pitched battle. It has the weaponry and armor to allow that. However, the Chimera is less airmobile, it would likely struggle to hold a full squad of marines, and I'd bet heavily that it's cruising speed and range are both lower.

Thanks for constructive answer.

Most APCs have thicker armor and improved ability to withstand obstacles like mines. The Rhino having less armor than a Predator makes zero sense.

The Rhino should at least have AV 11 all around. It doesn't need better weapons either, just armor.

We tend to think of the Astartes as filling the role of shock troops, or grenadiers: heavily armored troopers leading assaults.

They can do this, and during the Crusades they did more of it, but that is not generally the role they play in Imperial battle doctrine. The Astartes are best thought of as highly mobile, incredibly elite, light infantry. Think Rangers, paratroopers, commandos, what have you.

The biggest combat strength for Space Marines isn't power armor or bolters, although those certainly help. it is their ability to reliably strike from orbit to a place on a planet, with the tools and training to handle nearly any target. That they have tanks and other heavy gear at all is a clear nod to the concept that even Astartes stay dirtbound for a while, but their gear is built around the concept of mobility more than overwhelming power.

Of course, this is mostly post hoc rationalization. In reality, when GW started making Army Codices in 2nd edition, they gave the Rhino chassis vehicles to the marines (and chaos and Sisters), while IG got the LRBT and Chimera.

From a fluff POV, marines are already walking tanks, so they don’t need the protection of a rolling one. IG, on the other hand, are squishy and thus need a more rugged transport/IFV.

Logistics is also a big deal. The guard doesn’t work without a massive supply infrastructure accompanying it. Rhinos are light, easy to fix, rugged boxes.

 RazgrizOne wrote:
Yarium and Chaz, I do appreciate your quick responses!

But according to IG codexes, its vehicules too must respond to maintenance, mass production and simplicity requirements because it must be be provided to many many units at the same time. And despite fulfilling the "transport" requirement, the Razorback (IFV version) is still pretty exposed to medium strengh weapons. Tactical Marines are great but very often, they would not refuse more support capacity and durability, since their transport die quite frequently. Sure, Chapters have limited resources but isnt that a reason to build more solid vehicules so they would not have to replace them after each battle? I'm certainly oversimplifying here but you got my point

I am simply poked by the philosophy of the Rhino, which I find not very well in accordance with SM doctrines, and of course, I'm not expecting Land Raiders for every Tac Marine !

Exactly, it's an APC, not a tank It's meant to provide protection from small arms fire, tank-busting weapons

 Nevelon wrote:
From a fluff POV, marines are already walking tanks, so they don’t need the protection of a rolling one. IG, on the other hand, are squishy and thus need a more rugged transport/IFV.

Logistics is also a big deal. The guard doesn’t work without a massive supply infrastructure accompanying it. Rhinos are light, easy to fix, rugged boxes.

These are very good points ^^


Space marine vehicles have resupply/recharge facilities on board for power armour so it has another role as a mobile power station on long missions or protracted campains.

Marines in power armor along with their gear weigh significantly more than gurdsmen. This means that bigger engines and more fuel are needed to carry the marines, or weight has to be saved in some other way. It appears the designers have decided to sacrifice armor thickness/weight rather than build a significantly heavier, less moble, more range compromised transport.

Quite simple: The Rhino is an APC intended to get the guys inside to where they need to be as fast as possible, then retreat to a safe distance until they need picking up again. It is not intended to fight.

The Chimera is an IFV. It is intended to get the guys inside where they need to as fast as possible, then support them with its heavy weapons until they need re-deploying. It is a light fighting vehicle.

Rhino armor isn't weak, it's just that the game includes too much cheap anti-tank while having flawed hull point rules.

SJ

I recall reading somewhere that the Rhino chassis is actually based on a fragment of an STC template for a colonial tractor/bulldozer type vehicle, and that its engine may be easily modified to accept virtually any fuel source.

Because it's an APC, not a MBT.

Rhino's are battle taxi's, they're purpose is to be light enough for easy and quick orbital deployment, and be "good enough" to deliver the super soldier infantry to where they need to be. The Space Marines are the real power, the Rhino is just there to deliver them, and the fewer resources spent on getting the good stuff where it needs to be, the better.

Unlike say, a Chimera, which is meant to be an actual fighting vehicle and something of a medium tank, protecting and supporting relatively weak infantry and accounts for much of their overall capability.

Marines in power armor along with their gear weigh significantly more than gurdsmen. This means that bigger engines and more fuel are needed to carry the marines, or weight has to be saved in some other way. It appears the designers have decided to sacrifice armor thickness/weight rather than build a significantly heavier, less moble, more range compromised transport

That's a very good point, plus it makes sense from a realistic point of view, I guess, and I like it.

Rhino armor isn't weak, it's just that the game includes too much cheap anti-tank while having flawed hull point rules.

As a matter of fact, weapons strengh ingame make the universe and if plenty of weapons can tore through Rhino armor, I guess we can conclude that, in the lore, Rhino are quite fragile.

Because it's an APC, not a MBT.

I knew that before posting. Thank you !

Anyway, I can get why Rhino don't have heavier armor but I can't stop thinking that it must be a hard tool to use in a "real 40k" battlefield. I mean, okay, they're fast but Space Marines don't always choose to attack first or don't always choose the terrain which they will fight on. If they don't, they'll most likely meet the shortcomings of this tank sooner or later, which must be dangerous for their own safety. All operational conditions in the galaxy don't allow lightning ground assaults - I think especially about the very end of the Siege of Vraks, when Red Scorpions must attack on foot because all of their transports are shattered - and, as we said, LR are not easily deployed. So, what's the alternative? Razorbacks? Meh. All I want to say is a more powerful IFV could make perfect sense (and would be fun to play) for SM, since they can actually serve as shock troops, just like someone said previously. I don't want to make them even more Mary-Sue-er they can be, but I'm just pointing surprising IMO.

 RazgrizOne wrote:

Marines in power armor along with their gear weigh significantly more than gurdsmen. This means that bigger engines and more fuel are needed to carry the marines, or weight has to be saved in some other way. It appears the designers have decided to sacrifice armor thickness/weight rather than build a significantly heavier, less moble, more range compromised transport

That's a very good point, plus it makes sens from a realistic point of view, I guess, and I like it.

Rhino armor isn't weak, it's just that the game includes too much cheap anti-tank while having flawed hull point rules.

As a matter of fact, weapons strengh ingame make the universe and if plenty of weapons can tore through Rhino armor, I guess we can conclude that, in the lore, Rhino are quite fragile.

Because it's an APC, not a MBT.

I knew that before posting. Thank you !

I can't think of many stories where the Space Marine heros were in a Rhino and it DIDN'T freaking blow up!

Stay away from those cans!

Bad design that doesn't follow the fluff very well, rhinos should have
12/11/10
Fast
Assault vehicle

But then it would need to cost 50+ pts

 Formosa wrote:
Bad design that doesn't follow the fluff very well, rhinos should have
12/11/10
Fast
Assault vehicle

But then it would need to cost 50+ pts

For a marine assault vehicle, it would need to be 100. That's before you beefed the armor and gave it fast.

 kronk wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Bad design that doesn't follow the fluff very well, rhinos should have
12/11/10
Fast
Assault vehicle

But then it would need to cost 50+ pts

For a marine assault vehicle, it would need to be 100. That's before you beefed the armor and gave it fast.

Nah, marines don't really have much that can take advantage of it, 12/11/10 is worth 40-50pts, fast 10, assault vehicle another 15, so 75/80 max, it has a storm bolter as a main weapon...so not worth anywhere near the same as a serp, ghost arc etc.

But if the Rhino is the standard transport since the Heresy how can someone transport 20 men strong squads in 30k? Did FW release some other DT?

But if the Rhino is the standard transport since the Heresy how can someone transport 20 men strong squads in 30k? Did FW release some other DT?

According to HH Book 1 p.207, their transport capacity is 10 ... Where did you see that?

He means you can take a rhino even with 20 men, just not embark basically.

 mathaius90 wrote:
But if the Rhino is the standard transport since the Heresy how can someone transport 20 men strong squads in 30k? Did FW release some other DT?

They are still 10 man transports. Most HH infantry units start at 5 or 10 models.