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So I've been trying my damnedest to get Cypher to work, and I just can't. I'm struggling to see point of infiltrating Chosen with meltas and Chosen with power swords, though the latter could be due to Cypher and 10 Chosen with power swords failing 3/3 charges in my last games before being caught in the open and gunned to death. With power sword Chosen come at 33pts a pop, which is 2 points more than a Terminator with a power weapon and a combibolter, I'm struggling to see the point. For the same cost as Cypher and 10 Chosen w/5 power swords, I can get 13 Deep Striking Terminators. Sure, it's not competitive, but it's better all ways considered.

Infiltrating doesn't seem to be anywhere near as good as I thought it would be, and all that happens, even when I infiltrate them into cover, is that they get shot to shreds by T2 due to being in perfect range for most MEQ weaponry. If I could put them in a metuhl bawks and Outflank it wouldn't be so bad, but they can't take that either, so they're restricted to pitching a tent in a forest and waiting for the inevitable.

Cypher himself isn't much better - with only a few REALLY expensive Look Out, Sir!s, and Eternal Warrior/Shroud (yay... we can get a cover save as good as our armour if we try really hard!), the point cost is prohibitive. He's obviously best when joining a big squad, so maybe have him join 20 CSMs or 35 Cultists would help, but it's only marginally better.

With meltas it's simply better to take Havocs and load them up. 5 Chosen with 4 meltaguns costs 15 points more than 5 Havocs with 4 meltas, for which the Havocs can take an additional body. Sure, they have +1A and +1LD, but I can pop Havocs in a Rhino (with a delicious Havoc Launcher and Daemonic Possession) and at least get them somewhere, or take VotLW and have them still work out cheaper.

I simply can't see why anyone, for other than fluff reasons, would take Cypher and the Chosen in his formation. Chosen were never good, but giving them Infiltrate in exchange for Marks and DTs just means they'll be 6 inches closer to the enemy with no real protection. Whatever his Chosen can do, something else in the Chaos codex can already do better.

Is it just piss-poor internal balance or am I doing something wrong?

I plan on running him with 5 flamer chosen. Haven't had the chance to test it yet, but being dangerclose with flamers, having 5xD3 auto overwatch hits and cyphers overwatch at full BS means when they charge you it hurts. And with cyphers hit and run you can leave the combat, flame their unit and then charge them again.

Also why do you say they will be 6 inches closer to the enemy? They can deploy up to 12" away from the enemy when they are not in line of sight!

 M0ff3l wrote:
I plan on running him with 5 flamer chosen. Haven't had the chance to test it yet, but being dangerclose with flamers, having 5xD3 auto overwatch hits and cyphers overwatch at full BS means when they charge you it hurts. And with cyphers hit and run you can leave the combat, flame their unit and then charge them again.

Also why do you say they will be 6 inches closer to the enemy? They can deploy up to 12" away from the enemy when they are not in line of sight!

Well, that's kinda my problem - Nobody is ever going to let me get into CC, never mind charging me. I so dearly want to use the hit and run, but the other player knows this oh too well. I doubt anyone would want to charge you either - 3+ and -1 on cover saves isn't anywhere near good enough for MEQs within the range these guys need to be. They make such a vulnerable, juicy target.

My reasoning is that 24 inches separates the sides, and I have never seen enough LoS-blocking terrain to actually hide a 11 SMs.

I think running the chosen in groups of 10 is a big waste of points. They are only "good" because they can bring 5 special weapons in a minimal sized unit. The remaining 5 are overcosted chaos space marines at that point.

Also being infiltrators, you can exploit weaknesses in your opponents deployment. With 5 flamers they are obviously meant to be hunting groups of infantry. If they have some infantry in ruins or near cover without much AP3 protection you can infiltrate near those and attack them. Dont be afraid to soak wounds with cypher until he loses one, after that start look out sir'ing the rest.

dervishes are weak!

his chosen are probably best suited for gaes where theres a lot of bump and grind in the midfield between infantry units. using cities of death as an example you infiltrate in the midfield with plasma guns and lay out a bunch of elite infantry, or you go flamers and bbq his chaffe units

with the advent of gladius strikeforce/lions blade you could also bait the tanks into advancing and rolling in before infiltrate and melta gun them at point blank. the proverbial fox in the hen house

 M0ff3l wrote:
I think running the chosen in groups of 10 is a big waste of points. They are only "good" because they can bring 5 special weapons in a minimal sized unit. The remaining 5 are overcosted chaos space marines at that point.

Also being infiltrators, you can exploit weaknesses in your opponents deployment. With 5 flamers they are obviously meant to be hunting groups of infantry. If they have some infantry in ruins or near cover without much AP3 protection you can infiltrate near those and attack them. Dont be afraid to soak wounds with cypher until he loses one, after that start look out sir'ing the rest.

Havocs are 1 special weapon less and way cheaper. Sure, they don't have Infiltrate, but as opposed to Cypher's Chosen, they can take a Rhino.

The Chosen immediately become the hunted though. You may be able to exploit deployment weaknesses, but not likely. And you won't get close enough to use the flamers before getting utterly destroyed; the reason I bumped them to 10 was that I quickly figured that Chosen+weapon cost in a model in 3+ with some cover was a hilariously juicy target, so I needed some cheaper wounds to be able to soak up the damage. You're better off with the aforementioned Rhino/Havoc Launcher.

 ionusx wrote:
dervishes are weak!

his chosen are probably best suited for gaes where theres a lot of bump and grind in the midfield between infantry units. using cities of death as an example you infiltrate in the midfield with plasma guns and lay out a bunch of elite infantry, or you go flamers and bbq his chaffe units

with the advent of gladius strikeforce/lions blade you could also bait the tanks into advancing and rolling in before infiltrate and melta gun them at point blank. the proverbial fox in the hen house

Again, they won't survive in midfield against any real firepower. The enemy levels their anti-MEQ firepower at them at roughly 18 inches or less. Bye-bye Chosen.

Sure, if you have loads of LoS blocking terrain they'll be better, but the amounts required to make it useful is not common. However, I played against the Lion's Blade formation last game. It took virtually zero effort for them to annihilate them at point blank range. They peel away the nearest models, which effectively moves me back an inch. Also, your opponent would have to be on the tactical level of a rock to let your footslogging peasant melta Chosen anywhere near his armour.

So why not run havocs then? It seems to me like you dont even want to use the formation, you just want to complain about it. The CSM codex is one of the worst codices, so maybe you should just play space marines instead....

I think the best bet with these would be plasma guns. You can't guarantee an assault just by having Infiltrate, but you can probably make the opponent want to stay away from wherever you've Infiltrated.

 ChazSexington wrote:
Shroud (yay... we can get a cover save as good as our armour if we try really hard!)

You can get a 2+ cover save in Ruins, that's not nothing.

I've had really good results with Huron/Ahriman + Cypher + 20 csm combo.

Infiltrating chosen work pretty fine too. But not as a single threat ofc. You need everything to be in da face to make footslogging infiltrators truly effective.

 koooaei wrote:
I've had really good results with Huron/Ahriman + Cypher + 20 csm combo.

Infiltrating chosen work pretty fine too. But not as a single threat ofc. You need everything to be in da face to make footslogging infiltrators truly effective.

This. Definitely this. You NEED to dedicate your whole list to quick in your face threats to make it work. Be they CSM blobs, Spawn, winged DPs, Dreadclaws, Rhino spec weapon Havocs, Maulerfiends etc. You need threat overload tactics for it to work. And they need to be avaliable T1, so no T2 DS termis or oblits or it defeats the point of multiple threat overload.

What always works for me is 5 chosen with plasma, infiltrating in ruins (2+ cover save).

However, you have to have a unit that takes the threat off of the Chosen. Maulerfiends, a Nurgle bike lord, a juggerlord, ANYTHING they need to deal with turn 1 if they don't want it rampaging through their army.

Remember that the champion can have a combi-weapon too. I feel like the most efficient way to run chosen is 6 bodies with 5 specials and a combi.

I do quite like the sound of all flamers infiltrating with Cypher, might not be amazing, but I think it'll be fun

Chosen can easily become a point sink. They are good fighters to start with, so I tend to limit upgrades. A "hidden" powerfist and a couple of flamers looks scary enough to a lot of units, but as others have said, such a unit needs support by a rush list.

 M0ff3l wrote:
So why not run havocs then? It seems to me like you dont even want to use the formation, you just want to complain about it. The CSM codex is one of the worst codices, so maybe you should just play space marines instead....

I absolutely want to run the Formation, I'm just trying to run it and not get tabled

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
Shroud (yay... we can get a cover save as good as our armour if we try really hard!)

You can get a 2+ cover save in Ruins, that's not nothing.

True, sadly my LFGS is really short on ruins :(

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
I think the best bet with these would be plasma guns. You can't guarantee an assault just by having Infiltrate, but you can probably make the opponent want to stay away from wherever you've Infiltrated.

I'm not trying to be rude, but as I've posted earlier, they turn wherever they're standing into a crater :(

Poly Ranger wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I've had really good results with Huron/Ahriman + Cypher + 20 csm combo.

Infiltrating chosen work pretty fine too. But not as a single threat ofc. You need everything to be in da face to make footslogging infiltrators truly effective.

This. Definitely this. You NEED to dedicate your whole list to quick in your face threats to make it work. Be they CSM blobs, Spawn, winged DPs, Dreadclaws, Rhino spec weapon Havocs, Maulerfiends etc. You need threat overload tactics for it to work. And they need to be avaliable T1, so no T2 DS termis or oblits or it defeats the point of multiple threat overload.

I used to run Huron as well, but I used him to Infiltrate CC Cultists/CSMs/Huron. I could try that again, but due to the D3 Infiltrating units it becomes unpredictable and difficult to manage. I'll try Infiltrating a blob of CSMs and Cultists next game and I'll run Huron

DaPino wrote:
What always works for me is 5 chosen with plasma, infiltrating in ruins (2+ cover save).

However, you have to have a unit that takes the threat off of the Chosen. Maulerfiends, a Nurgle bike lord, a juggerlord, ANYTHING they need to deal with turn 1 if they don't want it rampaging through their army.

Aye, I've tried saturating, but I'm struggling with the point cost justification of the Chosen who are automatically their chosen target so far :(

 King Pyrrhus wrote:
Remember that the champion can have a combi-weapon too. I feel like the most efficient way to run chosen is 6 bodies with 5 specials and a combi.

I do quite like the sound of all flamers infiltrating with Cypher, might not be amazing, but I think it'll be fun

Forgot about the combi-weapon. Might try that too.

 ChazSexington wrote:
True, sadly my LFGS is really short on ruins :(

So youre trying to make an infiltrating shrouded unit work, and youre complaining about it getting shot to death every time... this is your problem, more than the loadout of the chosen 100%. Buy some of the citadel terrain stuff, scratch build some ruins! You need cover if you want infiltrators to work period. At my local store we play 1250, 4'x4' with atleast 4-5 pieces of terrain, 2 of which being ruins always. If you play 6x4 with no good terrain you cant blame their weapons or their statlines for them sucking...

You can take 5 or 10, give them flamers, plasmas, meltas or whatever, as long as they dont get their 2+ cover save atleast the turn they infiltrate they will suck 10/10 times.

 ChazSexington wrote:
Aye, I've tried saturating, but I'm struggling with the point cost justification of the Chosen who are automatically their chosen target so far :(

Also you counter all feedback people give you, but it seems like you dont even read it all the way. The post you responded there told you to get something along with the chosen that is scary to the enemy. Meaning if they target your chosen that other scary thing gets to hurt them. If they target that other scary thing, the chosen get to hurt them. If your opponents all target chosen every time, make them fear something else in your army. Make them see how scary a biker unit with meltas and a powerfist can be, or a maulerfiend, or a daemon prince, or a chaos lord with spawn. Literally anything that can deal loads of damage if it gets too close will make it so they have to decide between killing your chosen (who should have 2+ cover as i ranted earlier) or killing the other threat (which should either be bikes who can jink, a dp who can jink, a maulerfiend with front armor 12 or a bunch of nurgle spawn who can soak wounds)

I just played a couple of games with Cypher and his formation allied with my Khorne Daemonkin(see this battle report: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660482.page). I ran 4 plasma guns and a combi-plasma on them. The Chosen got killed pretty quickly in both games, but Cypher himself proved to be a handful for my opponents (but that could have been lucky die rolls ). I think, as was said above, that threat saturation is key to making these guys work. Give your opponent some bigger fish to fry (like a D-thirster or something).

The only reason why they were good because they had infiltrate in their cost now you have to waste points on an hq.

A squad of suicide marines with 4 melta or plasma guns outflanking in a rhino for 165-190pts was good back in 5th ed.

 M0ff3l wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
True, sadly my LFGS is really short on ruins :(

So youre trying to make an infiltrating shrouded unit work, and youre complaining about it getting shot to death every time... this is your problem, more than the loadout of the chosen 100%. Buy some of the citadel terrain stuff, scratch build some ruins! You need cover if you want infiltrators to work period. At my local store we play 1250, 4'x4' with atleast 4-5 pieces of terrain, 2 of which being ruins always. If you play 6x4 with no good terrain you cant blame their weapons or their statlines for them sucking...

You can take 5 or 10, give them flamers, plasmas, meltas or whatever, as long as they dont get their 2+ cover save atleast the turn they infiltrate they will suck 10/10 times.

 ChazSexington wrote:
Aye, I've tried saturating, but I'm struggling with the point cost justification of the Chosen who are automatically their chosen target so far :(

Also you counter all feedback people give you, but it seems like you dont even read it all the way. The post you responded there told you to get something along with the chosen that is scary to the enemy. Meaning if they target your chosen that other scary thing gets to hurt them. If they target that other scary thing, the chosen get to hurt them. If your opponents all target chosen every time, make them fear something else in your army. Make them see how scary a biker unit with meltas and a powerfist can be, or a maulerfiend, or a daemon prince, or a chaos lord with spawn. Literally anything that can deal loads of damage if it gets too close will make it so they have to decide between killing your chosen (who should have 2+ cover as i ranted earlier) or killing the other threat (which should either be bikes who can jink, a dp who can jink, a maulerfiend with front armor 12 or a bunch of nurgle spawn who can soak wounds)

Ruins have helped me before, but it's still a massive issue.

The problem is again, the survivability. +2/5++ is better than 3+/Shroud. The amount of points tied up in the unit is simply way too high for the way I've been playing them. Mathammer-wise, looking at what they can do, Chaos Terminators are simply better point for point, and they're competitively only used for termiciding, suggesting Cypher's Chosen are lulzy high, especially when they can't take Marks or Icons to boost them.

Out of curiosity, have you ever played the Cypher formation, and if so, what were your experiences?

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I just played a couple of games with Cypher and his formation allied with my Khorne Daemonkin(see this battle report: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660482.page). I ran 4 plasma guns and a combi-plasma on them. The Chosen got killed pretty quickly in both games, but Cypher himself proved to be a handful for my opponents (but that could have been lucky die rolls ). I think, as was said above, that threat saturation is key to making these guys work. Give your opponent some bigger fish to fry (like a D-thirster or something).

Threat saturation is something I've tried before, but I'll give it another go It's again the cost of Chosen, who I really want to use, being too high, for their survivability which you mention! And it's nice it's not just me who's played them and had the same experience ;p

 Filch wrote:
The only reason why they were good because they had infiltrate in their cost now you have to waste points on an hq.

A squad of suicide marines with 4 melta or plasma guns outflanking in a rhino for 165-190pts was good back in 5th ed.

See, that's what my experience is right now. I see they could play a role, but they don't have the option of taking Rhinos and Infiltrate.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
True, sadly my LFGS is really short on ruins :(

So youre trying to make an infiltrating shrouded unit work, and youre complaining about it getting shot to death every time... this is your problem, more than the loadout of the chosen 100%. Buy some of the citadel terrain stuff, scratch build some ruins! You need cover if you want infiltrators to work period. At my local store we play 1250, 4'x4' with atleast 4-5 pieces of terrain, 2 of which being ruins always. If you play 6x4 with no good terrain you cant blame their weapons or their statlines for them sucking...

You can take 5 or 10, give them flamers, plasmas, meltas or whatever, as long as they dont get their 2+ cover save atleast the turn they infiltrate they will suck 10/10 times.

 ChazSexington wrote:
Aye, I've tried saturating, but I'm struggling with the point cost justification of the Chosen who are automatically their chosen target so far :(

Also you counter all feedback people give you, but it seems like you dont even read it all the way. The post you responded there told you to get something along with the chosen that is scary to the enemy. Meaning if they target your chosen that other scary thing gets to hurt them. If they target that other scary thing, the chosen get to hurt them. If your opponents all target chosen every time, make them fear something else in your army. Make them see how scary a biker unit with meltas and a powerfist can be, or a maulerfiend, or a daemon prince, or a chaos lord with spawn. Literally anything that can deal loads of damage if it gets too close will make it so they have to decide between killing your chosen (who should have 2+ cover as i ranted earlier) or killing the other threat (which should either be bikes who can jink, a dp who can jink, a maulerfiend with front armor 12 or a bunch of nurgle spawn who can soak wounds)

Ruins have helped me before, but it's still a massive issue.

The problem is again, the survivability. +2/5++ is better than 3+/Shroud. The amount of points tied up in the unit is simply way too high for the way I've been playing them. Mathammer-wise, looking at what they can do, Chaos Terminators are simply better point for point, and they're competitively only used for termiciding, suggesting Cypher's Chosen are lulzy high, especially when they can't take Marks or Icons to boost them.

Out of curiosity, have you ever played the Cypher formation, and if so, what were your experiences?

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I just played a couple of games with Cypher and his formation allied with my Khorne Daemonkin(see this battle report: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660482.page). I ran 4 plasma guns and a combi-plasma on them. The Chosen got killed pretty quickly in both games, but Cypher himself proved to be a handful for my opponents (but that could have been lucky die rolls ). I think, as was said above, that threat saturation is key to making these guys work. Give your opponent some bigger fish to fry (like a D-thirster or something).

Threat saturation is something I've tried before, but I'll give it another go It's again the cost of Chosen, who I really want to use, being too high, for their survivability which you mention! And it's nice it's not just me who's played them and had the same experience ;p

 Filch wrote:
The only reason why they were good because they had infiltrate in their cost now you have to waste points on an hq.

A squad of suicide marines with 4 melta or plasma guns outflanking in a rhino for 165-190pts was good back in 5th ed.

See, that's what my experience is right now. I see they could play a role, but they don't have the option of taking Rhinos and Infiltrate.

I dont understand you at all. You ask for tips of how to run them, you get loads of advice and loads of things that can help you take advantage of the threat they provide. And yet you always have an answer to every bit of feedback. You always "already tried that" etc. So why even make the thread if you already tried every possible tactic with them? If you already know everything we cant make them suddendly good for you.

First you compared them to Havocs saying they are WAY MORE EXPENSIVE! (litterally only 15 points more for the option to take a 5th special weapon, thats not even that bad of a tax...). Now you compare them to Terminators because you run them with power swords.. which is the worst possible way to run that unit imaginable. News flash, a 2+ cover save is better than a 2+ armor save 9 times out of 10. Except against ignores cover, which you can avoid by infiltrating away from whatever has ignores cover...

Next up Cypher is hardly a tax. If you dont want cypher, bring huron or ahriman, take chosen in a rhino and infiltrate them that way. Litterally the only reason why you would ever want to use this formation is to use cypher. If you feel like cypher is a waste of points then dont play this formation.

You say threat saturation is something you tried before (just like you tried everything else already) and you always complain about your chosen dying first. So what kind of threat did you bring? Did it enjoy a full shooting phase of not having to worry because your 2+ cover save chosen (who have soooo bad survivabilty obviously) tanked all that shooting? Or did you not use ruins now? Im kind of confused, first you say your hobby store is low on ruins and now you say youve tried them before. So can you help me understand that better?

Also, yes I have used the formation. But I played against orks with the flamer loadout i mentioned earlier. So obviously that wont apply to you because orks are not the top tier armies that you face Im guessing. And if you are wondering they did great, the only thing I disliked was that my champion lost a challenge to his nob, So now I gave my champion a power maul.

And lastly, If you think that they could play a role if only they had a rhino and infiltrate. Take Huron (like suggested before), take chosen with a rhino, give chosen infiltrate, take cypher (who you can just take without the formation for 190 points) if you desire, and tada all your problems should be fixed according to you. So thread solved? you can get rhino and infiltrate and cypher?

So I played 6 melta-Chosen and 10 power sword Chosen with Cypher (and Huron) yesterday against Tau, 1500 points. I arrived early, and quickly grabbed the LFGS's ruins and placed them on a 6' by 4' table with some craters, making up a standard amount of scenery (4 pieces per 2' by 2'). Deployment ended with me unable to Infiltrate into ruins, so I hid my meltas behind a wall at about 18", accompanied by 10 Infiltrating CSMs with 2 plasma guns. My power sword wielders got 35 Infiltrating Cultists with a lvl3 Sorcerer (Spell familiar, SoC, Biomancy - so got Endurance, which I wanted) in front of them until they could get into ruins just in front of the Cultists, granting them a 2+. Tau player had gone Unbound and taken 4 Heavy Support choices, filling it up with Devilfish and Hammerheads, including a DT. Luckily, he hadn't taken Markerlights, this being his first game in years.

There are other units, but they'e not that important for how these guys worked, as they bizarrely ended up in separate fights across the field (only a Dreadnought, 10 Cultists, 5 CSMs and Huron) without really impacting the game. Huron's moment of glory was failing a 5" charge against Tau crisis suits.

CSM T1 CSMs grill a Piranha and move into a crater. Melta-Chosen are still well outside 12" of enemy tanks, but I move them into ruins (They don't have Shrouded). Cultists and Chosen both run, taking the Cultists to about 10" away from the Tau line, nicely at rapid fire range - that I successfully cast Endurance and have a 4+ FnP is nice here.

Tau T1 - Tau take out a few Melta Chosen and CSMs, enough to force LD tests, both are passed. Wipes out about 4" of Cultists, taking me back to about 14" or so.

CSM T2 - Keep running towards the Tau through difficult terrain with Chosen and Cultists. CSMs don't kill anything, meltas not in range, but closing.

Tau T2 - Full barrage on CSMs with S8 AP2 large Blasts from Ion Accelerators. Go to ground, down to 3-4. Meltas suffer the same, down to 2. Much the same for Cultists, who are now only surviving due to Eternal Warrior and 4+ FnPs from Endurance.

CSM T3 - CSMs get up and miss. Meltas both miss their shots (Snakeeyes). Cultists, having lost already a sizeable amount, are in trouble as my Sorcerer fails to cast Endurance, though they have Fleet from Sorcerer with Warp Speed. Fail Charge due to Overwatch.

Tau T3 - CSMs under heavy barrage, survive. Meltas destroyed by Crisis suits. Cultists are lucky; Sorcerer survives with a few left. Cypher's squad take 2 casualties.

CSM T4 - CSMs take out a XV88 suit. Cultists and Chosen make it into combat, wipe out a squad of Fire Warriors. Are now within Rapid Fire range of Fire Warriors with Aun'shee and others, no cover.

Tau T4 - CSMs go down. Ion Accelerators wipe out most of the Chosen and Cultists.

CSM T5 - Chosen into combat, the survivors being one power sword-wielder and Cypher. From the Cultists it's 1 flamer, 1 CCW Cultist, and the Sorcerer. Draw combat against Aun'shee and a bunch of Fire Warriors.

Tau T5 - Everything locked in stalemate. Fire Warriors bring down the last Chosen. Cypher hit and runs to a nearby Devilfish.

CSM T6 - Sorcerer Warp Speeds, Endurance, and then Perils of the Warp to get Warp Surge. At +3A, +3I, wounding on 2+ and AP2, Aun'Shee takes one wound. Cypher fires his plasma pistol, immobilising the Devilfish, then runs in and finishes it off.

Tau T6 - Tau skimmers centre all their remaining firepower on Cypher. Cypher's dead. The Sorcerer finally kills Aun'shee (I managed two 4 and ups on 14 attacks the last two rounds). Sorcerer wipes out the rest.

Game ends - Tau win 10-7.

CSMs and Cultists helped the survivability of the Formation,

 M0ff3l wrote:


I dont understand you at all. You ask for tips of how to run them, you get loads of advice and loads of things that can help you take advantage of the threat they provide. And yet you always have an answer to every bit of feedback. You always "already tried that" etc. So why even make the thread if you already tried every possible tactic with them? If you already know everything we cant make them suddendly good for you.

I hadn't tried everything - more ruins on the board was one. I'm trying to see if I've missed something in the games I've played with him.

I'm not trying to be rude; I've used him a lot and I'm struggling to see where Cypher and his Chosen fit in, as for their role, either as shock infantry or specialised weapon squads, CSMs have way superior options.

 M0ff3l wrote:


First you compared them to Havocs saying they are WAY MORE EXPENSIVE! (litterally only 15 points more for the option to take a 5th special weapon, thats not even that bad of a tax...). Now you compare them to Terminators because you run them with power swords.. which is the worst possible way to run that unit imaginable. News flash, a 2+ cover save is better than a 2+ armor save 9 times out of 10. Except against ignores cover, which you can avoid by infiltrating away from whatever has ignores cover...

Chosen with meltas compared to Havocs with meltas and Chosen with power swords compared with Terminators with power swords? Is that an unreasonable comparison? And you're leaving out the cost of Cypher to give them Infiltrate.

Getting a 2+ cover save with Shrouded is so circumstantial you need a chest-high wall or ruins somewhere strategically good to even be able to use it, and then it's best as a firebase. The second you're out, you're relying on power armour saves, and it only applies to the unit Cypher joins. That's 190 points for Shrouded, Hit & Run, and Fleet for a unit that is going to be mostly stationary. I did once use it with melta Chosen and Cypher against Chaos Termies to great effect, mind.

I'll concede it's better using them as a ranged unit in Ruins with Cypher though, as Cover won't help in close combat, where an invuln will, and as long as you're fighting a force without Ignores Cover weapons, like Tau (though luckily that didn't happen this time), they'll be more survivable, but considerably more difficult to kill.

 M0ff3l wrote:

Next up Cypher is hardly a tax. If you dont want cypher, bring huron or ahriman, take chosen in a rhino and infiltrate them that way. Litterally the only reason why you would ever want to use this formation is to use cypher. If you feel like cypher is a waste of points then dont play this formation.

I actually took it to be able to Infiltrate when I was starting out my CSM force, due to Huron's D3 Infiltrating Infantry is unreliable and worse than the Warlord Trait (3 units). I took both Huron and Cypher yesterday though. I don't feel Cypher necessarily is the worst use of points in a vacuum. If I can find a better way of using him things'll probably improve. However, he doesn't seem to synergise with his Formation.

 M0ff3l wrote:

You say threat saturation is something you tried before (just like you tried everything else already) and you always complain about your chosen dying first. So what kind of threat did you bring? Did it enjoy a full shooting phase of not having to worry because your 2+ cover save chosen (who have soooo bad survivabilty obviously) tanked all that shooting? Or did you not use ruins now? Im kind of confused, first you say your hobby store is low on ruins and now you say youve tried them before. So can you help me understand that better?

I've played in several places? I've played in a few GWs, now my LFGS. I played with ruins before in the GWs, but I'll add more at the bottom.

 M0ff3l wrote:


Also, yes I have used the formation. But I played against orks with the flamer loadout i mentioned earlier. So obviously that wont apply to you because orks are not the top tier armies that you face Im guessing. And if you are wondering they did great, the only thing I disliked was that my champion lost a challenge to his nob, So now I gave my champion a power maul.

Actually, when my Formation actually functioned well enough was against CSMs, another CC army. I'm wondering if that's the niche now, 'cause against Tau, Eldar, DA, it's been turned into paste.

 M0ff3l wrote:

And lastly, If you think that they could play a role if only they had a rhino and infiltrate. Take Huron (like suggested before), take chosen with a rhino, give chosen infiltrate, take cypher (who you can just take without the formation for 190 points) if you desire, and tada all your problems should be fixed according to you. So thread solved? you can get rhino and infiltrate and cypher?

Which ticks in at a mere expense of an HQ (CSMs best slot) and an Elites slot, your Warlord Trait, and 475 points minimum, allowing you to field Cypher and Huron with 5 Chosen in a Rhino. Again, I'm not too fussed about Cypher, so I'd only run Huron in that case, which would take you down to 285. Which is still overcosted.

I'm not trying to be an ass, but I am trying to figure out how to get this Formation to work. Like you mentioned, close-combat isn't the way to go. If you're going Cypher and Chosen, the best way is to run them, in my experience, seems to be as a stationary plasma gun squad in ruins against TEQs and MEQs in CC armies likes CSMs, Orks, Tyranids etc. Melta doesn't have the required range, neither do CCWs, as that means you actually have to shift your ass.

Against forces with long range firepower and Ignores Cover, they're not worth it due to the point cost and lack of mobility. If you're fighting Tau, don't bother. If they're bringing Sicarans, don't bother. So in a bottom-tier scrub-out, Cypher and plasma are probably not too bad (only tried this with melta).

However, maybe in Apocalypse battles they'd do better, simply because there'd possibly be more space to deploy in as well, but I haven't tried it yet, and the point costs wouldn't be as large a percent of your army.

At best, you'll be paying 190 points for Cypher's pistols (who synergise horribly due to range and S) and to give some plasma gun Chosen Shrouded and Infiltrate. Roughly the same point cost you're looking at 5 Obliterators (2+/5++), which are more versatile, or 2 plasma gun Havoc squads in Rhinos, which offers more firepower. Personally, I think Cypher is overcosted, and the Chosen are a unit without a real role.

I think actually random Warlord Traits exacerbates the problem. If they hadn't been random (and Psyker powers for that matter), you wouldn't need Cypher or Huron, and could go something like a winged Nurgle DP with Master of Ambush instead of having to pay for Huron or Cypher.

I don't think I would ever put 10 power swords on a unit, if doing so cost me 150 points. I would rarely find the points to put one power sword on a unit for 15 points. Different if you get the power swords for free somehow.

 ChazSexington wrote:
So I played 6 melta-Chosen and 10 power sword Chosen with Cypher (and Huron) yesterday against Tau, 1500 points. I arrived early, and quickly grabbed the LFGS's ruins and placed them on a 6' by 4' table with some craters, making up a standard amount of scenery (4 pieces per 2' by 2'). Deployment ended with me unable to Infiltrate into ruins, so I hid my meltas behind a wall at about 18", accompanied by 10 Infiltrating CSMs with 2 plasma guns. My power sword wielders got 35 Infiltrating Cultists with a lvl3 Sorcerer (Spell familiar, SoC, Biomancy - so got Endurance, which I wanted) in front of them until they could get into ruins just in front of the Cultists, granting them a 2+. Tau player had gone Unbound and taken 4 Heavy Support choices, filling it up with Devilfish and Hammerheads, including a DT. Luckily, he hadn't taken Markerlights, this being his first game in years.

There are other units, but they'e not that important for how these guys worked, as they bizarrely ended up in separate fights across the field (only a Dreadnought, 10 Cultists, 5 CSMs and Huron) without really impacting the game. Huron's moment of glory was failing a 5" charge against Tau crisis suits.

First of all you cant bring 10 power sword chosen in 1 unit, so im assuming they were 2 seperate units? Then what you mentioned here is already ~1300 points. So what were those last 200 points? Was it a big threat like we recommended before? Because all I'm seeing here is weak units like chosen, CSM and cultists... Dont fill the entire formation take 1 unit as cyphers body guards and thats it. Chosen are overcosted (just like regeular CSM are) throwing more at your opponent wont fix your problem. You could have used those 330 points your power sword chosen were taking up on one hell of a daemon prince. Or 2 vindicators, or almost 2 heldrakes.

 M0ff3l wrote:


First you compared them to Havocs saying they are WAY MORE EXPENSIVE! (litterally only 15 points more for the option to take a 5th special weapon, thats not even that bad of a tax...). Now you compare them to Terminators because you run them with power swords.. which is the worst possible way to run that unit imaginable. News flash, a 2+ cover save is better than a 2+ armor save 9 times out of 10. Except against ignores cover, which you can avoid by infiltrating away from whatever has ignores cover...

Chosen with meltas compared to Havocs with meltas and Chosen with power swords compared with Terminators with power swords? Is that an unreasonable comparison? And you're leaving out the cost of Cypher to give them Infiltrate.

If you compare melta chosen to melta havocs you are saying taking 5 meltaguns instead of 4 is never worth 15 points to you. If thats the case the CSM codex is really not for you, because we have some of the most expensive taxes and overcosted units. Also yeah you can compare them to terminators, or you could just not run power swords which are 15 points each... 15 POINTS! WHY WOULD YOU EVEN. Also its not like youre paying 190 points for infiltrate. Cypher is a badass who can do all sorts of things up close, which is where your chosen will be.

 M0ff3l wrote:

Next up Cypher is hardly a tax. If you dont want cypher, bring huron or ahriman, take chosen in a rhino and infiltrate them that way. Litterally the only reason why you would ever want to use this formation is to use cypher. If you feel like cypher is a waste of points then dont play this formation.

I actually took it to be able to Infiltrate when I was starting out my CSM force, due to Huron's D3 Infiltrating Infantry is unreliable and worse than the Warlord Trait (3 units). I took both Huron and Cypher yesterday though. I don't feel Cypher necessarily is the worst use of points in a vacuum. If I can find a better way of using him things'll probably improve. However, he doesn't seem to synergise with his Formation.

If you run him with flamers he synergises plenty. Hit and run on initiative 8, overwatch at full BS, 2 CC attacks with S7AP2. he is a gimmick but you can make him work. For example detach him from your unit, charge in first and challenge. Hit and run to flame your opponents in your next turn (you can hit and run after combat in THEIR assault phase!) Even with meltas youre gonna be in range of his pistols (or youre playing melta wrong). I wouldnt take the chosen as tank hunters, they are way better suited as anti infantry imo.

 M0ff3l wrote:

You say threat saturation is something you tried before (just like you tried everything else already) and you always complain about your chosen dying first. So what kind of threat did you bring? Did it enjoy a full shooting phase of not having to worry because your 2+ cover save chosen (who have soooo bad survivabilty obviously) tanked all that shooting? Or did you not use ruins now? Im kind of confused, first you say your hobby store is low on ruins and now you say youve tried them before. So can you help me understand that better?

I've played in several places? I've played in a few GWs, now my LFGS. I played with ruins before in the GWs, but I'll add more at the bottom.

You ignored my question about what threat you bring. I didnt see it in your report against tau, i didnt see it in this answer. Just tell me what "threat" means to you. 35 cultists? a ML3 sorcerer? 10 CSM? I dont see any threats being used.

 M0ff3l wrote:

And lastly, If you think that they could play a role if only they had a rhino and infiltrate. Take Huron (like suggested before), take chosen with a rhino, give chosen infiltrate, take cypher (who you can just take without the formation for 190 points) if you desire, and tada all your problems should be fixed according to you. So thread solved? you can get rhino and infiltrate and cypher?

Which ticks in at a mere expense of an HQ (CSMs best slot) and an Elites slot, your Warlord Trait, and 475 points minimum, allowing you to field Cypher and Huron with 5 Chosen in a Rhino. Again, I'm not too fussed about Cypher, so I'd only run Huron in that case, which would take you down to 285. Which is still overcosted.

that is still 30 points cheaper than the original formation. So if you think 285 is overcosted WHY DO YOU BUY THEM POWER SWORDS?!!?!?! 30 points is overcosted to you, paying 150 for useless melee weapons is fine? What kind of damage do you expect from a power sword in a unit that always dies according to you?

I'm not trying to be an ass, but I am trying to figure out how to get this Formation to work. Like you mentioned, close-combat isn't the way to go. If you're going Cypher and Chosen, the best way is to run them, in my experience, seems to be as a stationary plasma gun squad in ruins against TEQs and MEQs in CC armies likes CSMs, Orks, Tyranids etc. Melta doesn't have the required range, neither do CCWs, as that means you actually have to shift your ass.

Against forces with long range firepower and Ignores Cover, they're not worth it due to the point cost and lack of mobility. If you're fighting Tau, don't bother. If they're bringing Sicarans, don't bother. So in a bottom-tier scrub-out, Cypher and plasma are probably not too bad (only tried this with melta).

Welcome to CSM probably the worst 7th edition codex, dont like it? theres the exit. No one is forcing you to play the worst codex in the game. Close combat is not the way to go if you spent 15 points per model for weapons they will get to use once or twice. You want to be in close combat with something that is weak so you can hit and run in their turn and they wont be able to shoot at you. Taking weaponry that is good at ranges where you can charge and hit and run and still shoot full damage is perfect. Plasma Guns and Flamers for instance.

At best, you'll be paying 190 points for Cypher's pistols (who synergise horribly due to range and S) and to give some plasma gun Chosen Shrouded and Infiltrate. Roughly the same point cost you're looking at 5 Obliterators (2+/5++), which are more versatile, or 2 plasma gun Havoc squads in Rhinos, which offers more firepower. Personally, I think Cypher is overcosted, and the Chosen are a unit without a real role.

You are the one who insists on taking them. If I wanted to bring thousand sons I wouldnt start a threat complaining on how OBLITERATORS WHO ARE IN A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SLOT are better than them. Obliterators are one of the best units in this gakky codex, you cant just compare a bottom tier unit (from a bottom tier codex) to a top tier unit from that codex. That just makes no sense at all. Also how have you been using cypher that he synergises so horribly? Whenever I played him he was a total monster in shooting and in assault.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
I don't think I would ever put 10 power swords on a unit, if doing so cost me 150 points. I would rarely find the points to put one power sword on a unit for 15 points. Different if you get the power swords for free somehow.

I only get 5. And I agree, it's too steep. They should have an option to take it for 10 points, max.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 M0ff3l wrote:

First of all you cant bring 10 power sword chosen in 1 unit, so im assuming they were 2 seperate units? Then what you mentioned here is already ~1300 points. So what were those last 200 points? Was it a big threat like we recommended before? Because all I'm seeing here is weak units like chosen, CSM and cultists... Dont fill the entire formation take 1 unit as cyphers body guards and thats it. Chosen are overcosted (just like regeular CSM are) throwing more at your opponent wont fix your problem. You could have used those 330 points your power sword chosen were taking up on one hell of a daemon prince. Or 2 vindicators, or almost 2 heldrakes.

10 Chosen, 5 with power swords (Aspiring Champion included).

I don't have a Daemon Prince, Heldrakes, nor Vindicators, sadly, but the 35-man Cultist squad with the lvl3 sorcerer was what got the attention and diverted it from the Chosen, successfully. My opponent realised that he didn't want 105 attacks anywhere near his troops. He also particularly wanted rid of the CSMs.

The Chosen DID get into CC, wipe out a squad, then had one turn out of cover, where they were reduced to Cypher and one Chosen.

The rest was Reaper autocannon and missile launcher Dreadnought and 10 Cultists to form the rest of a Helcult formation, then a 5-man CSM troop choice.

 M0ff3l wrote:


If you compare melta chosen to melta havocs you are saying taking 5 meltaguns instead of 4 is never worth 15 points to you. If thats the case the CSM codex is really not for you, because we have some of the most expensive taxes and overcosted units. Also yeah you can compare them to terminators, or you could just not run power swords which are 15 points each... 15 POINTS! WHY WOULD YOU EVEN. Also its not like youre paying 190 points for infiltrate. Cypher is a badass who can do all sorts of things up close, which is where your chosen will be.

Oh, I completely agree with have expensive taxes and horribly overcosted units, power swords included.

The power swords were originally to fight MEQs. Always thought 4 S4 AP3 attacks per PS Chosen would be devastating against MEQs, but that was until they met the DA firepower.

Sure, Cypher is badass, but for 190 points you're in Marked and winged DP territory, and only about 50 points off a Black Mace. But any SC designed for close range better have more than Eternal Warrior and a paltry 3+ .

 ChazSexington wrote:

I don't have a Daemon Prince, Heldrakes, nor Vindicators, sadly, but the 35-man Cultist squad with the lvl3 sorcerer was what got the attention and diverted it from the Chosen, successfully. My opponent realised that he didn't want 105 attacks anywhere near his troops. He also particularly wanted rid of the CSMs.

The Chosen DID get into CC, wipe out a squad, then had one turn out of cover, where they were reduced to Cypher and one Chosen.

The rest was Reaper autocannon and missile launcher Dreadnought and 10 Cultists to form the rest of a Helcult formation, then a 5-man CSM troop choice.

So 3 things here:
1: I would highly advice a daemon prince, I recently bought one myself, its pretty cheap and the kit is beautiful imo. It is also insane ingame (although pricy)
2: The chosen killing a squad is why I would not give them power swords myself. I would want them to tarpit the enemy (something that doesnt have AP2/AP3 and cant hurt them super easy) and then hit and run away in their turn.
3: The helbrute is maybe even worse than the chosen. That formation is "okay" but really your whole army is just troops (lets face it, chosen are troops at a higher price with extra special weapons) 3 characters and a hell brute. At 1500 points that is nothing id be scared of with any of my armies TBH.

Oh, I completely agree with have expensive taxes and horribly overcosted units, power swords included.

The power swords were originally to fight MEQs. Always thought 4 S4 AP3 attacks per PS Chosen would be devastating against MEQs, but that was until they met the DA firepower.

Sure, Cypher is badass, but for 190 points you're in Marked and winged DP territory, and only about 50 points off a Black Mace. But any SC designed for close range better have more than Eternal Warrior and a paltry 3+ .

A DP (of nurgle which is best) with wings is 200, 220 if you want power armor (which you do) with black mace on that its 265. So to me that is no longer compareable to cypher. Also like I said earlier you could detach cypher from the chosen and charge to get a challenge in. Cypher will destroy most characters in challenges, some without even getting hit back. At that point his 3+ doesnt really matter. I8 is not something you should scoff at,

 M0ff3l wrote:

If you run him with flamers he synergises plenty. Hit and run on initiative 8, overwatch at full BS, 2 CC attacks with S7AP2. he is a gimmick but you can make him work. For example detach him from your unit, charge in first and challenge. Hit and run to flame your opponents in your next turn (you can hit and run after combat in THEIR assault phase!) Even with meltas youre gonna be in range of his pistols (or youre playing melta wrong). I wouldnt take the chosen as tank hunters, they are way better suited as anti infantry imo.

Okay, this depends on anyone going within range of the ruin he's hiding in. Remember, outside the ruin they're at best 3+ or 3+ cover save. If you're playing an opponent like say Tau with accelerator weapons, prepare for S8 AP2/3 Large Blasts.

 M0ff3l wrote:

You ignored my question about what threat you bring. I didnt see it in your report against tau, i didnt see it in this answer. Just tell me what "threat" means to you. 35 cultists? a ML3 sorcerer? 10 CSM? I dont see any threats being used.

The 35 Fearless Cultists led by a lvl 3 Sorcerer, Infiltrating courtesy of Huron. All bar one turn with Endurance (4+ FnP, Eternal Warrior, Relentless). Sorcerer also obviously had Warp Speed a few turns for Fleet, +3A and +3I. Demolishes anything he has in CC.

 M0ff3l wrote:

that is still 30 points cheaper than the original formation. So if you think 285 is overcosted WHY DO YOU BUY THEM POWER SWORDS?!!?!?! 30 points is overcosted to you, paying 150 for useless melee weapons is fine? What kind of damage do you expect from a power sword in a unit that always dies according to you?

Exactly. I thought 3+ and Shrouded would be fine for getting an expensive unit in CC. I was wrong when I designed my strategy.

 M0ff3l wrote:

Welcome to CSM probably the worst 7th edition codex, dont like it? theres the exit. No one is forcing you to play the worst codex in the game. Close combat is not the way to go if you spent 15 points per model for weapons they will get to use once or twice. You want to be in close combat with something that is weak so you can hit and run in their turn and they wont be able to shoot at you. Taking weaponry that is good at ranges where you can charge and hit and run and still shoot full damage is perfect. Plasma Guns and Flamers for instance.

You are the one who insists on taking them. If I wanted to bring thousand sons I wouldnt start a threat complaining on how OBLITERATORS WHO ARE IN A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SLOT are better than them. Obliterators are one of the best units in this gakky codex, you cant just compare a bottom tier unit (from a bottom tier codex) to a top tier unit from that codex. That just makes no sense at all. Also how have you been using cypher that he synergises so horribly? Whenever I played him he was a total monster in shooting and in assault.

I'm comparing a ranged unit to another ranged unit in an attempt figure out what kind of role Chosen could play if they are hiding in ruins with plasma guns.

Again, he has a range of 12-16 with pistols. He can fire twice. His bolt gun isn't very effective, and his plasma pistol doesn't get hot. He has a 3+ save, Shrouded and Eternal Warrior. When facing an army such as SMs/DA etc, Eldar, Tau etc. their commander has to be a few sandwiches short of a picnic basket to let him get to that range or walk into that range.

I managed to Hit and Run him last game, taking out the Devilfish or Hammerhead (can't remember which it was off the top of my head). I don't think I've played a single game where Cypher hasn't died, all bar once due to heavy bombardment, when he died to a Chaos Lord in TDA (2+/5++ beats 3+ in CC).

 M0ff3l wrote:


So 3 things here:
1: I would highly advice a daemon prince, I recently bought one myself, its pretty cheap and the kit is beautiful imo. It is also insane ingame (although pricy)
2: The chosen killing a squad is why I would not give them power swords myself. I would want them to tarpit the enemy (something that doesnt have AP2/AP3 and cant hurt them super easy) and then hit and run away in their turn.
3: The helbrute is maybe even worse than the chosen. That formation is "okay" but really your whole army is just troops (lets face it, chosen are troops at a higher price with extra special weapons) 3 characters and a hell brute. At 1500 points that is nothing id be scared of with any of my armies TBH.

1 - Agreed, I'm hesitant on getting anything until a new codex launches, mind, especially if it's units I wouldn't want otherwise - I'm trying to run a fluffy Alpha Legion/Fallen list.
2 - Aye, that's the kind of advice I've been looking for! But this does play into wanting them to charge (so making them good against CC armies like Orks and 'Nids). Taking a smaller squad isn't a bad idea though, and I'll try that next time
3 - Helbrute actually generally performs quite well. Missile launcher maybe isn't the best, but twin-linked 2 S7 AP4 shots with 36" isn't too bad. Also, he's mostly for making Cultists Fearless, which is something I wanted in 6th edition for scoring IIRC. I've had said Fearless Cultists tear down Iron Hand biker command squads and overrunning anything that isn't anti horde as long as they're led by a Sorcerer who can cast Endurance.

 M0ff3l wrote:

A DP (of nurgle which is best) with wings is 200, 220 if you want power armor (which you do) with black mace on that its 265. So to me that is no longer compareable to cypher. Also like I said earlier you could detach cypher from the chosen and charge to get a challenge in. Cypher will destroy most characters in challenges, some without even getting hit back. At that point his 3+ doesnt really matter. I8 is not something you should scoff at,

Aye, forgot power armour. But that's 30 point difference between Cypher and a Winged, Marked and PA'd Daemon Prince. Cypher's I8 doesn't really help though. He may wound twice with his pistols, depending on FnPs and Invulns which are rampant, but his T4 3+ will still get him pasted by anything with a close combat weapon. Let's do the maths against a Chaos Lord in TDA with MoT, clocking in at 120.

Assuming neither side charged for simplicity
Cypher: Hits on 3+ with all attacks, 2 are S4 AP5, 1 is S7 AP2. 2(2/3*1/2*1/6)+(2/3*5/6*1/2)=2/5 wounds round on the Chaos Lord.
Chaos Lord: Hits on 4+ with all attacks, 4 S4 AP3. 4(1/2*1/2)=1 wounds per round on Cypher.

Granted, the Chaos Lord doesn't have Eternal Warrior which does matter, but I don't buy the premise that Cypher is a good option for challenges, which doesn't even need to take as he's not a Champion of Chaos.

Again, I'm not trying to be quarreling donkey-cave, but I still can't figure out their role on the battlefield, unless it's maybe Cypher with a unit of plasma gun Chosen to sit on an objective in a ruin.

So I had run the chosen several times, at a bunch of iterations.

I did best with cypher and 3 chosen squads with a flying nurgle DP and a bunch of nurglings (infiltrate and OBSEC).

Still lost, but it was closer.

 koooaei wrote:
I've had really good results with Huron/Ahriman + Cypher + 20 csm combo.

Infiltrating chosen work pretty fine too. But not as a single threat ofc. You need everything to be in da face to make footslogging infiltrators truly effective.

This is what you want. Cypher + Chosen are not great on their own. But add Huron and a large blob of cultists and you now have a very scary infiltrating army.

Cypher + 3 units of chosen + 35 strong cultists + anything else if you roll well.

 Exergy wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I've had really good results with Huron/Ahriman + Cypher + 20 csm combo.

Infiltrating chosen work pretty fine too. But not as a single threat ofc. You need everything to be in da face to make footslogging infiltrators truly effective.

This is what you want. Cypher + Chosen are not great on their own. But add Huron and a large blob of cultists and you now have a very scary infiltrating army.

Cypher + 3 units of chosen + 35 strong cultists + anything else if you roll well.

Especially if you have a plan for the "anything else", which will work for you whether you roll a 1, 2, or 3 on the number of infiltrating units. So the extra 1-2 units beyond the cultists have to be something that you can bring in by other means if you have to -- which, for me, means they are probably Obliterators.