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By large formation I mean formation made up from multiple formations.

So which one (if any) and why?

Just curious as to the communities opinion on this as we've seen annoyance directed at all of them.

I personally think Ad Mech edge it out due to Canticles on all units with one reuse, Skitarii doctrines on over half the units, free wargear, weapons and relic upgrades on every unit and ignores gets hot on units which may be shooting 9 plasma shots a turn. The free wargear alone is crazy, but army wide full strength canticles on units that will very likely be also buffed with skitarii doctrines just makes it so much worse.

What's your opinion?

All of them are equally OP when you compare it to pre decurion codex.

They are all relatively at the same power level.
IMO you have them listed in order of how powerful they really are - doesn't necessarily mean that's how they perform against each other.

I agree with Xenomancers. How powerful each one is is a non-argument when these formation detachments are broken on a fundamental level

Wow, Decurion takes the cake so far. Pfffff. That's surprising.

None of those things are formations. They are detachments.

so nobody's ever lost a game to Lion's Blade I see.

Should include the Khone Daemonkin Slaughter blood murder death cult or whatever it's called

krodarklorr wrote:Wow, Decurion takes the cake so far. Pfffff. That's surprising.

I like how the Eldar are in third place despite the only OP thing in the Warhost being the ability to take multiple Wraithknights, which says more about the Wraithknight than about the Warhost. Still, the Necron hate it strong here.

I would have voted "none" but I have played against the War Convocation. I don't think by itself it's OP, but when combined with the Bloody Taxi Service it becomes the most powerful alpha strike currently in the game. At least it can be somewhat mitigated by having lots of units in reserves.

DarknessEternal wrote:None of those things are formations. They are detachments.

True, but in several cases they are special detachments consisting of formations.

I don't believe any of them are really OP.

The nastiest lists I've ever come across were using FoC's, not any of the Formation detachments.

Toss up between derpcurion and Convo. I'm going with derpcurion because nobody plays convo and every single Necron player fields the same god damn list and will for the next two years.

the_scotsman wrote:
Toss up between derpcurion and Convo. I'm going with derpcurion because nobody plays convo and every single Necron player fields the same god damn list and will for the next two years.

Look at it this way: if the Necron player only uses the same units in the same combinations, they become predictable. Predictable lists are easy to counter. Remember back during the good ol' days of serpent spam Eldar? It was all pretty much the exact same list too. As it turns out, people were able to find out counters to it (CC, MSU). The same situation applies to the Decurion.

Sure. If I only played against Necrons. And had an army that actually contained their few and far between counters.

Nah, I think Necrons are gonna turn out to be what 5th ed GK were-play them a few times and you've punched your ticket. I got sick of Draigo+Paladins+Dreadknights+psylemen, and now I'm sick of Rec Legion+Harvest+Destroyer Cult.

When you know exactly the list and tactics of your opponent the second they say "I play X" it's not a matter of being able to beat it. It's a matter of how long you're willing to ensure the boredom of playing the same freaking game over and over.

38% so far tells its own story.....

Decurion's arn't even that powerful the hate they get is actually ridiculous

lollie123 wrote:
Decurion's arn't even that powerful the hate they get is actually ridiculous

Hey.

Hey there buddy. Couldn't help notice you deflecting there.' Only 19 posts since '12? You sure that's not your alt deflecting account? That or you have never played against them.

honestly, I stuggle against decurion, as both of my armies have either little counters to fast moving units, or very survivable units, basically, I fething hate wraiths.

wc is honestly quite strong, but not near the strength of the cw.

ad-mech and friends are always fun and stuff, however, not nearly as slowed as scat bike and wraithknight spam.

The Decurion.

While these are all generally somewhat abuseable, the Decurion takes what would otherwise simply be good and makes it insane.

Eldar can be horrific with or without their special warhost. Space Marines likewise can get most of their cheese without the Gladius strike force, perhaps better.

The only other one that's on the same level as the Decurion I think is the AdMech one, where an 1850pt list ends up with more like a 2500pt list.

The Decurion is just absurd. Basic Warriors walking around with greater resiliency to small arms fire *and* heavy AP2 fire than Terminators being only more vulnerable against things like Heavy Bolters, and only if in the open), along with incredible mobility.

I see armies from these other books run without their special large formation, but basically never see a Necron army not running a Decurion.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Decurion.

While these are all generally somewhat abuseable, the Decurion takes what would otherwise simply be good and makes it insane.

Eldar can be horrific with or without their special warhost. Space Marines likewise can get most of their cheese without the Gladius strike force, perhaps better.

The only other one that's on the same level as the Decurion I think is the AdMech one, where an 1850pt list ends up with more like a 2500pt list.

The Decurion is just absurd. Basic Warriors walking around with greater resiliency to small arms fire *and* heavy AP2 fire than Terminators being only more vulnerable against things like Heavy Bolters, and only if in the open), along with incredible mobility.

I see armies from these other books run without their special large formation, but basically never see a Necron army not running a Decurion.

Shall I lay down a bowl to collect your tears? Decurion isn't that bad dude, especially compared to the free Razorbacks SM is throwing out, and the ranged-D Eldar are throwing out.

Decurion Warriors, even with the reroll, are not more resilent than Terminators against small arms.

Bolters:

.5 x .5 x .42 = 0.105

,.5 x .17 = 0,085

Unless you are including Res Orbs or Ghost Ark resurrection,

Yes, but warriors are vastly cheaper than termies.

<Deleted...sorry, misunderstood previous post>

 jasper76 wrote:


Shall I lay down a bowl to collect your tears? Decurion isn't that bad dude, especially compared to the free Razorbacks SM is throwing out, and the ranged-D Eldar are throwing out.

Do you have a counter-argument to actually discuss or just "whatabout"-isms and absurd "tears" comments?

Free razorbacks are bad. They are not as bad as increasing the damage reduction offered by RP by 75% (4+ with reroll 1's vs 5+) along with mobility increases offered by the sub-formations.

Again, there's a reason you see almost no non-Decurion necron armies, and lots and lots of non-Gladius SM armies.

Likewise, yes, Eldar D weapons are bad, but we're talking about the detachment formations here, and the Eldar Warhost isn't really augmenting that.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:


Shall I lay down a bowl to collect your tears? Decurion isn't that bad dude, especially compared to the free Razorbacks SM is throwing out, and the ranged-D Eldar are throwing out.

Do you have a counter-argument to actually discuss or just "whatabout"-isms and absurd "tears" comments?

Free razorbacks are bad. They are not as bad as increasing the damage reduction offered by RP by 75% (4+ with reroll 1's vs 5+) along with mobility increases offered by the sub-formations.

Again, there's a reason you see almost no non-Decurion necron armies, and lots and lots of non-Gladius SM armies.

Likewise, yes, Eldar D weapons are bad, but we're talking about the detachment formations here, and the Eldar Warhost isn't really augmenting that.

Sorry for the incindiary comment, I should have not done that.

So, I guess I think that the Decurion system puts Necrons exactly where they should be in terms of fluff IMO. But we don't get free units. Free units are worse than super-FNP IMO. Free units should not exist in the game at all.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:


Shall I lay down a bowl to collect your tears? Decurion isn't that bad dude, especially compared to the free Razorbacks SM is throwing out, and the ranged-D Eldar are throwing out.

Do you have a counter-argument to actually discuss or just "whatabout"-isms and absurd "tears" comments?

Free razorbacks are bad. They are not as bad as increasing the damage reduction offered by RP by 75% (4+ with reroll 1's vs 5+) along with mobility increases offered by the sub-formations.

Again, there's a reason you see almost no non-Decurion necron armies, and lots and lots of non-Gladius SM armies.

Likewise, yes, Eldar D weapons are bad, but we're talking about the detachment formations here, and the Eldar Warhost isn't really augmenting that.

Sorry for the incindiary comment, I should have not done that.

So, I guess I think that the Decurion system puts Necrons exactly where they should be in terms of fluff IMO. But we don't get free units. Free units are worse than super-FNP IMO. Free units should not exist in the game at all.

Free units are bad, I absolutely agree. That irks me very much, but I just haven't seen the free razorbacks used to the same effectiveness level as the Decurion bonuses, particularly coupled with the subformations.

Free Razorbacks only gives a few extra heavy weapons and some transport ability, highly dependent on building an army around very small and unoptimized units to fit into typically played points levels and can only be utilized at all at higher points levels (and best at points levels beyond what are typically played), while the Decurion bonuses apply to the entire detachment, everything benefits, and can be played effectively within a wide array of points levels.

If RP were the same as it were in the 5E book, it'd be one thing, but when it applies to every wound (not just the last), and there's no way to negate it (like wiping out a unit) it made the ability vastly more powerful. Increasing it's ability by 75% on the core of the (the Reclamation Legion) along with other things (e.g. Wraiths that get granted RP) makes an already incredibly powerful ability simply far too overwhelmingly reliable, particularly when bringing heavy weapons into play and RP goes from a 6+ against ID to a 5+ with rerolling 1's on most of the army (a 2.3x increase in the effectiveness of RP).

Wraiths especially are bad, it takes more S10 firepower to kill 6 wraiths in a Decurion with RP than it does to kill a Warhound Titan.

Now, power levels between some of the higher end books may perhaps be equalized, but the Necron book was also the one that started that power trend, and is one of a small selection of armies that are at a power level far above the majority of armies.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Decurion.

While these are all generally somewhat abuseable, the Decurion takes what would otherwise simply be good and makes it insane.

Eldar can be horrific with or without their special warhost. Space Marines likewise can get most of their cheese without the Gladius strike force, perhaps better.

The only other one that's on the same level as the Decurion I think is the AdMech one, where an 1850pt list ends up with more like a 2500pt list.

The Decurion is just absurd. Basic Warriors walking around with greater resiliency to small arms fire *and* heavy AP2 fire than Terminators being only more vulnerable against things like Heavy Bolters, and only if in the open), along with incredible mobility.

I see armies from these other books run without their special large formation, but basically never see a Necron army not running a Decurion.

There are two basic counters to a Decurion:

1. Out-MSU and outmaneuver them. Kite the Necrons around and force the Necron player to spread their forces thin. While Necrons can be mobile, they can't be everywhere at one. Kill off the spread-out units one by one and win on objectives.

2. Punch them to death in CC. This is dependent on your getting the charge on the Necrons and avoiding the Wraiths. Wraiths can be tarpitted with enough bodies, or killed if they can be sufficiently debuffed. Force reduced leadership checks and sweep them due to their crippling lack of Initiative.

There are only a few armies that can shoot Necrons to death, namely Eldar, Space Marines (grav+grav amps), Tau, and Admech/Skitarii War convocation. Ironically, Necrons lack the long-range firepower and alpha-strike potential to compete with these armies.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:


Shall I lay down a bowl to collect your tears? Decurion isn't that bad dude, especially compared to the free Razorbacks SM is throwing out, and the ranged-D Eldar are throwing out.

Do you have a counter-argument to actually discuss or just "whatabout"-isms and absurd "tears" comments?

Free razorbacks are bad. They are not as bad as increasing the damage reduction offered by RP by 75% (4+ with reroll 1's vs 5+) along with mobility increases offered by the sub-formations.

Again, there's a reason you see almost no non-Decurion necron armies, and lots and lots of non-Gladius SM armies.

Likewise, yes, Eldar D weapons are bad, but we're talking about the detachment formations here, and the Eldar Warhost isn't really augmenting that.

Sorry for the incindiary comment, I should have not done that.

So, I guess I think that the Decurion system puts Necrons exactly where they should be in terms of fluff IMO. But we don't get free units. Free units are worse than super-FNP IMO. Free units should not exist in the game at all.

Free units are bad, I absolutely agree. That irks me very much, but I just haven't seen the free razorbacks used to the same effectiveness level as the Decurion bonuses, particularly coupled with the subformations.

Free Razorbacks only gives a few extra heavy weapons and some transport ability, highly dependent on building an army around very small and unoptimized units to fit into typically played points levels and can only be utilized at all at higher points levels (and best at points levels beyond what are typically played), while the Decurion bonuses apply to the entire detachment, everything benefits, and can be played effectively within a wide array of points levels.

If RP were the same as it were in the 5E book, it'd be one thing, but when it applies to every wound (not just the last), and there's no way to negate it (like wiping out a unit) it made the ability vastly more powerful. Increasing it's ability by 75% on the core of the (the Reclamation Legion) along with other things (e.g. Wraiths that get granted RP) makes an already incredibly powerful ability simply far too overwhelmingly reliable, particularly when bringing heavy weapons into play and RP goes from a 6+ against ID to a 5+ with rerolling 1's on most of the army (a 2.3x increase in the effectiveness of RP).

Wraiths especially are bad, it takes more S10 firepower to kill 6 wraiths in a Decurion with RP than it does to kill a Warhound Titan.

Now, power levels between some of the higher end books may perhaps be equalized, but the Necron book was also the one that started that power trend, and is one of a small selection of armies that are at a power level far above the majority of armies.

All I can say is, after having a gakky codex last edition, and people begging to anyone who would listen to nerf that gakky codex, now that we get a decent one that plays to the fluff, and includes every single nerf every opponent ever asked for, while Eldar and SM get things like free tanks and ranged-D (our ranged D became extinct) , I don't sympathize with the idea the Necron Decurion is OP. Necrons have finally been brought up to par with all the other army's 6th edition codicea, plain and simple.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:


Shall I lay down a bowl to collect your tears? Decurion isn't that bad dude, especially compared to the free Razorbacks SM is throwing out, and the ranged-D Eldar are throwing out.

Do you have a counter-argument to actually discuss or just "whatabout"-isms and absurd "tears" comments?

Free razorbacks are bad. They are not as bad as increasing the damage reduction offered by RP by 75% (4+ with reroll 1's vs 5+) along with mobility increases offered by the sub-formations.

Again, there's a reason you see almost no non-Decurion necron armies, and lots and lots of non-Gladius SM armies.

Likewise, yes, Eldar D weapons are bad, but we're talking about the detachment formations here, and the Eldar Warhost isn't really augmenting that.

Sorry for the incindiary comment, I should have not done that.

So, I guess I think that the Decurion system puts Necrons exactly where they should be in terms of fluff IMO. But we don't get free units. Free units are worse than super-FNP IMO. Free units should not exist in the game at all.

Free units are bad, I absolutely agree. That irks me very much, but I just haven't seen the free razorbacks used to the same effectiveness level as the Decurion bonuses, particularly coupled with the subformations.

Free Razorbacks only gives a few extra heavy weapons and some transport ability, highly dependent on building an army around very small and unoptimized units to fit into typically played points levels and can only be utilized at all at higher points levels (and best at points levels beyond what are typically played), while the Decurion bonuses apply to the entire detachment, everything benefits, and can be played effectively within a wide array of points levels.

If RP were the same as it were in the 5E book, it'd be one thing, but when it applies to every wound (not just the last), and there's no way to negate it (like wiping out a unit) it made the ability vastly more powerful. Increasing it's ability by 75% on the core of the (the Reclamation Legion) along with other things (e.g. Wraiths that get granted RP) makes an already incredibly powerful ability simply far too overwhelmingly reliable, particularly when bringing heavy weapons into play and RP goes from a 6+ against ID to a 5+ with rerolling 1's on most of the army (a 2.3x increase in the effectiveness of RP).

Wraiths especially are bad, it takes more S10 firepower to kill 6 wraiths in a Decurion with RP than it does to kill a Warhound Titan.

Now, power levels between some of the higher end books may perhaps be equalized, but the Necron book was also the one that started that power trend, and is one of a small selection of armies that are at a power level far above the majority of armies.

All I can say is, after having a gakky codex last edition, and people begging to anyone who would listen to nerf that gakky codex, now that we get a decent one that plays to the fluff, and includes every single nerf every opponent ever asked for, while Eldar and SM get things like free tanks and ranged-D (our ranged D became extinct) , I don't sympathize with the idea the Necron Decurion is OP. Necrons have finally been brought up to par with all the other army's 6th edition codicea, plain and simple.

Was there something wrong with the previous Necron codex? The 5E book was great. It was strong in 5E, got even better in 6E, and stayed strong up until it got updated to be even better. It had some crap parts (like Praetorians and the like, though all books have that issue), but between Tesla & Jink shennanigans, unkillable CBB's, the interaction between Gauss and HP's, etc, they were very strong. Necrons were never considered bad, or even mediocre, after getting their 2011 book.

As someone who primarily plays IG and CSM's, I know about dealing with bad codex releases, and I can only wish they'd had the power level of Necrons in 6E and 7E.

IMy opinion is that it was a pretty bad codex. Almost everything that was good about it was a gimmick, rather than something dependable, or, God forbid, fluffy.

The new army rules give the Necron player a "reason for being" (whatever that french term is), and that is RP and re-rolls. And it's fluffy.

Guys, this is the new paradigm, Unless there is a new design shift, all forther codexes will get this treatment.

So they're not OP unless they are OP against each other. How they do against older codexes that haven't gotten the treatment yet is irrelevant.

So... how DO they rate against each other?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the 5E Necron codex was atrociously internally balanced. It was strong, but only due to gimmicry and rules exploits.

The 13 people who voted (so far) that none of them are OP are infact the Necron/Eldar/SM Players

 jasper76 wrote:
IMy opinion is that it was a pretty bad codex. Almost everything that was good about it was a gimmick, rather than something dependable, or, God forbid, fluffy.

Fluffiness might be subjective, there was a lot that was fairly reliable {hit allocation on CBB's) and a lot to mitigate the unreliability (e.g. twin linked on tesla weapons).

The new army rules give the Necron player a "reason for being" (whatever that french term is), and that is RP and re-rolls. And it's fluffy.

Even if we assume that, just because it's fluffy doesn't mean it's not overpowered. Getting to drop a basilisk shell on every unit in the opposing army as a preliminary bombardment while playing IG before the first turn might be fluffy too, but hardly balanced or fair. The Skyhammer SM formation is seen by many as fluffy, but being able to dump 40 grav shots on up to 4 different targets turn 1, and follow that up with units assaulting from deep strike, is also hardly balanced.

I mean, I can dig what GW was aiming at, and what people like about the concept, but the resiliency bonuses stacked on top of the various formations and the changes to RP are incredibly powerful, and if we're talking the power of the detachments, the Decurion is on top, rivaled probably only by the AdMech one since it gives an absurd amount of free gear and ignores Gets Hot!.

Alcibiades wrote:
Guys, this is the new paradigm, Unless there is a new design shift, all forther codexes will get this treatment.

The problem being that GW has a track record of changing design paradigms fairly consistently, about every year or so. The books of 2013 were different in power level than the books of 2014, which were different in power level from the books of 2015.

Also, the 5E Necron codex was atrociously internally balanced. It was strong, but only due to gimmicry and rules exploits.

As was true of most books of that era, Necrons remains strong however much longer than the rest of the 5E books, if anything getting more pwoerful in 6E