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Pretty simple rules change that i think makes sense and i'd just like to see how people think of it since pretty much everyone agrees the current charge rules are pretty borked

Replace the 2D6 roll with a D6+initiative

How about a flat 6 + initiative instead?

What you have would destroy the assault phase even more then it is already.

Yeah, something like at minimum a guaranteed 6" charge would help out many armies a fair bit, make it something like 6+D6 or 6 plus initiative like Doom said.

I covered some of my ideas about making charges more reliable in this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/657732.page

I made the 6" charge the standard for all units. Charging through cover is 2D6 highest. Move Through Cover and Skilled Rider give a 6" charge even through difficult terrain. Jump Infantry may use their jump packs to charge 6+D6 inches. Fleet units ignore the penalty for charging through terrain and charge 6+D6 inches.

As a bonus, I made some changes to reduce the reliance on Assault Grenades and changed the rules for vehicle disembarkation.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
How about a flat 6 + initiative instead?

What you have would destroy the assault phase even more then it is already.

I'm not sure i see how it would make charges worse or less likely for most except really low initiative armies like orks and necrons and something like furious charge could give like a 3 inch flat bonus anyway, for marines etc it'd guaruntee a 5 inch charge

Your suggestion would give marines a 10 inch charge, which would be ridiculously good

GAdvance wrote:
Your suggestion would give marines a 10 inch charge, which would be ridiculously good

You'd also get 16" charges for the Eldar Avatar of Khaine or Harlequin Solitares, plus whatever bonus you end up giving for Fleet...

Guaranteeing a minimum of 6" gets my vote, failing those 3" charges is just embarrassing.

I propose that even if you fail the charge your unit still moves by that many inches.

GAdvance wrote:
Pretty simple rules change that i think makes sense and i'd just like to see how people think of it since pretty much everyone agrees the current charge rules are pretty borked

Replace the 2D6 roll with a D6+initiative

I am ok with this, so long as we also change EVERY ORK INITIATIVE TO 6. Their are 2 CC armies really in this game. Orks and Tyrnids and guess what? Orks have terrible Initiative so you would be boning them hard. As far as making it a 6' Flat charge range...yet again gimping my orks. We generally need 8-12 inches to get to CC since we basically lose the game unless in CC by turn 2.

 Quanar wrote:

GAdvance wrote:
Your suggestion would give marines a 10 inch charge, which would be ridiculously good

You'd also get 16" charges for the Eldar Avatar of Khaine or Harlequin Solitares, plus whatever bonus you end up giving for Fleet...

Guaranteeing a minimum of 6" gets my vote, failing those 3" charges is just embarrassing.

This right here. 6" should be automatic (barring difficult terrain for models without MtC). Anything higher should require 6 + 1D6. Completely random charge lengths are so stupid.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

GAdvance wrote:
Pretty simple rules change that i think makes sense and i'd just like to see how people think of it since pretty much everyone agrees the current charge rules are pretty borked

Replace the 2D6 roll with a D6+initiative

I am ok with this, so long as we also change EVERY ORK INITIATIVE TO 6. Their are 2 CC armies really in this game. Orks and Tyrnids and guess what? Orks have terrible Initiative so you would be boning them hard. As far as making it a 6' Flat charge range...yet again gimping my orks. We generally need 8-12 inches to get to CC since we basically lose the game unless in CC by turn 2.

Or we could just make furious charge give +3 inches like i said, if we were to raise orks basic initiative they would be ridiculously silly in CC and it wouldn't fit their fluff either

Random charges exist as a balance to being able to premeasure at all times. If you know the enemy have a 6" move and a 6" charge you can premeasure and move to 13" away and know that you will always be safe and able to shoot them.

That said, the snake eyes charges are pretty embarrassing,a nd the unreliability makes assault even weaker than it could have been.

I support 1D6 plus a set amount (probably 4 or 5 actually) and being able to move the unit the distance rolled.

Filch wrote:I propose that even if you fail the charge your unit still moves by that many inches.

I never understood why this wasn't in the rules already. I mean what happened did they just look at the gap and go "eh, too far"

GAdvance wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
How about a flat 6 + initiative instead?

What you have would destroy the assault phase even more then it is already.

I'm not sure i see how it would make charges worse or less likely for most except really low initiative armies like orks and necrons and something like furious charge could give like a 3 inch flat bonus anyway, for marines etc it'd guaruntee a 5 inch charge

Your suggestion would give marines a 10 inch charge, which would be ridiculously good

You could make it so that it is 6+ Inititiave - (strength - armor save)?

It would make Marines 6+ 4 - 1 so a 9" charge.
An ork boy would be 6+3? - (-2) so an 11" charge

If your wondering, yes my ideas are always this overcomplicated.

Ork boyz initiative is 2 and their strength is 3 so it would be 6+2 - (-3) = 11 so you got the right answer, but you did it wrong.

Btw why would it be against the fluff for orks to have higher initiative? Initiative, at least in the way GW uses it for 40k doesn't refer to initiative but instead to agility and quickness. Orks are very agile and quick in the fluff. Why would a guy in bulky heavy terminator armor have higher initiative then someone not being slowed down by armor. (so long as the termi is using a sword and not his fist.)

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Ork boyz initiative is 2 and their strength is 3 so it would be 6+2 - (-3) = 11 so you got the right answer, but you did it wrong.

Btw why would it be against the fluff for orks to have higher initiative? Initiative, at least in the way GW uses it for 40k doesn't refer to initiative but instead to agility and quickness. Orks are very agile and quick in the fluff. Why would a guy in bulky heavy terminator armor have higher initiative then someone not being slowed down by armor. (so long as the termi is using a sword and not his fist.)

Actually if you look at the rulebook, initiative is described as representing the swiftness of a creature's reactions, not their agility. So this can also factor in both superhuman senses that the Eldar/Genestealers have or in the case of the space marine his in-built HUD and tech combined with his own space marine organs. Orks don't exactly have this and more slow-witted than others since they get caught up in the joy of combat (his skill in and enthusiasm this of course is reflected in his weapon skill and attacks instead).

Orks are pretty slow witted and have little to nothing in the way of aids that they bring with them to a fight, Initiative 2 is perfectly reasonable for them makes a lot of sense

Perhaps 1D6+ initiative still makes to most sense, factoring in armour save means nothing since some like eldar armour are still very light even with a 3+

Ork boyz initiative is 2 and their strength is 3 so it would be 6+2 - (-3) = 11 so you got the right answer, but you did it wrong

Hmm. I seriously must have been brain dead. Well as long as the point was made I guess!



But seriously I think that I could see orks being I3 as they are not really slow-witted compared to humans. They just have a different way of thinking then us.

Could do flat 6" charge (no overwatch, no charge range increase abilities) along with the OPTION of trying a "long charge" of 2d6 with overwatch.

GAdvance wrote:
Orks are pretty slow witted and have little to nothing in the way of aids that they bring with them to a fight, Initiative 2 is perfectly reasonable for them makes a lot of sense

Perhaps 1D6+ initiative still makes to most sense, factoring in armour save means nothing since some like eldar armour are still very light even with a 3+

Like I said, that would gimp the orks completely, We are a primarily CC army, and with I2 thats only 3-8 inches. So to fix Charging and help CC your going to gimp my CC army.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

GAdvance wrote:
Orks are pretty slow witted and have little to nothing in the way of aids that they bring with them to a fight, Initiative 2 is perfectly reasonable for them makes a lot of sense

Perhaps 1D6+ initiative still makes to most sense, factoring in armour save means nothing since some like eldar armour are still very light even with a 3+

Like I said, that would gimp the orks completely, We are a primarily CC army, and with I2 thats only 3-8 inches. So to fix Charging and help CC your going to gimp my CC army.

Do you read the bit where i said multiple times that furious charge could add an extra 3 inches multiple times or just ignore it to whine that your army is to weak?

it used to be a 6 inch only charge and orks weren't gimped then so why a 6 inch minimum charge would screw you i have no idea

GAdvance wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

GAdvance wrote:
Orks are pretty slow witted and have little to nothing in the way of aids that they bring with them to a fight, Initiative 2 is perfectly reasonable for them makes a lot of sense

Perhaps 1D6+ initiative still makes to most sense, factoring in armour save means nothing since some like eldar armour are still very light even with a 3+

Like I said, that would gimp the orks completely, We are a primarily CC army, and with I2 thats only 3-8 inches. So to fix Charging and help CC your going to gimp my CC army.

Do you read the bit where i said multiple times that furious charge could add an extra 3 inches multiple times or just ignore it to whine that your army is to weak?

it used to be a 6 inch only charge and orks weren't gimped then so why a 6 inch minimum charge would screw you i have no idea

1: furious charge isn't a Ork only trait, do you really want Blood angels charging 8-13 inches? (Initiative 4+3 (Furious charge) +1D6) Orks would be 5-11 which is nice but still a gimp over the current system since we can max out at 12 not 11, the only benefit is you can't roll snake eyes which is already rare for orks since we get a reroll.

SO yeah sorry I missed your +3 but its still technically a nerf not a buff.

2: "It used to be 6 inch only charge" yeah it used to be, and they also didn't have over watch, nor did they have JSJ or the massive power creep where my 101+ Green tide can get tabled in 2 turns in a 1,500 point game.

The current game is Shooty only, I honestly can't remember the last time I saw a CC army win any tournament in my area, nor can you deny that this edition isn't a "Shooty" edition since almost every new codex pushed out lots of Dakka and very little Choppa. I mean hell, look at my Ork codex, what new units did we get? a Giant Shooty Robot, Artillery, and a stupidly expensive Flash Gitz unit which runs around the battlefield in a BW shootings things. What new CC stuff did we get........nothing.

Orks are hardly a close combat army though, not with their 18" assault 2 S4 basic guns.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Orks are hardly a close combat army though, not with their 18" assault 2 S4 basic guns.

your right, I forgot they are a shooting army....with their BS2. Orks have lots of Dakka to make up for the fact that none of it ever hits. And that gun is basically a shorter ranged assault variant of a bolter, which is usually not called...Good. And btw, the basic gun for an Ork boy is a slugga, which is a S4 AP6 Pistol. The Shoota is a 1 point upgrade.

Ork boyz have WS4 and 2A BASE, yeah they are most definitely an assault army. We have a lot of gun lines for this edition because assault sucks so bad but that doesn't change the fact that they are an assault army.

Back to fixing Charges. I would get rid of the rule of no assaulting after running, and I would further change running to be D3+3 instead of D6 and good luck to ya. This would increase the threat range a further 4-6 inches. Team that up with assault being D6+6 and boom you have fixed the biggest problems with Charging and helped out a lot of assaulty armies.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Orks are hardly a close combat army though, not with their 18" assault 2 S4 basic guns.

Yeah! Everyone knows that ork shooting is right up there with shooty marines, tau, shooty eldar, necrons, guard tanks.

I kid. Ork shooting can be pretty okay provided you're consistently lucky. The balancing factor to the impressive profiles of ork guns is the fact that you're missing with two thirds of your shots or, in the case of certain artillery, lootas, and flash gitz, the fact that certain elements of your weaponry are unreliable (such as gun strength, number of shots, and weapon AP respectively). So if you are able to land more hits than you statistically should, roll better with your loota shots than you should, and consistently roll the AP on your flash gitz that you need to tear up the armor of whatever squad you're shooting, orks are pretty fantastic at shooting. But generally speaking, you should be missing with enough shots for ork shooting to be helpful but not especially impressive.

Regarding the main topic, my proposal for changes to charge range is always this:

*When you charge, you can choose between a guaranteed 6" or roll for 2d6"
*Cover still gives you a -2 penalty to those rangers (so either 4" or (2d6")-2")

It's basically the same system as now, but you don't have to worry about failing a silly-short charge and being exposed to enemy shooting provided you're close enough before you charge. The random charge will get you farther on average (especially with rules like 'Ere We Go or Fleet), but you can make yourself "accident proof."

Aren't Lootas statistically the best point for point str7 shooting in the game

D3+3 and a D6+6 would absolutely and utterly wreck the game, if you rolled well enough you could move 6+6+12... that's unutterably stupid for a basic infantry unit

I'd honestly have no problem with it being 6 or 2D6 and it would probably make the decision a bit more important but it just seems to make a lot of sense to me that Initiative would play a big role in your charging ability in a fast changing battlefield

GAdvance wrote:
Aren't Lootas statistically the best point for point str7 shooting in the game

Sort of. They're pretty cheap considering their gun profile, and they do pack a punch. Thing is, each guy is averaging two shots meaning he'll land about two thirds of a hit. So with a squad of 10, you'll land 6 or 7 hits (assuming you roll a 2 for number of shots). That's nothing to sneeze at, but then you also have to worry about them being less durable than devastators while also being pretty lacklustre in close combat compared to other orks. So enemy shooting will diminish their killing power pretty fast even if they're in cover, and anything that manages to assault them will scare them quite a bit. I like sending Baharroth and his hawk buddies after them.

Then again, if you're lucky with your number of shots and/or to-hit rolls, they're pretty devastating offensively. Orky random goodness. Lootas are rarely a bad choice.

Not to hijack the thread.

GAdvance wrote:
Aren't Lootas statistically the best point for point str7 shooting in the game

D3+3 and a D6+6 would absolutely and utterly wreck the game, if you rolled well enough you could move 6+6+12... that's unutterably stupid for a basic infantry unit

I'd honestly have no problem with it being 6 or 2D6 and it would probably make the decision a bit more important but it just seems to make a lot of sense to me that Initiative would play a big role in your charging ability in a fast changing battlefield

D3+3 would make it so your not just pushing your models forward an inch, or just completely saying to hell with it and not moving them at all. And D6+6 guarantees the short charges and ups the minimum charge to what the current average is. It also makes Gun Line armies a bit more afraid of assault then they currently are.

How about this:

Models may always make a charge of 6" if they so choose, and enemy models that were targeted for the assault may fire overwatch when this option is chosen.

If the player chooses, however, he may attempt a random charge by rolling 2d6. When doing this, the model MUST always move forward the number of inches rolled and overwatch is not allowed.

What'cha think?

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
How about this:

Models may always make a charge of 6" if they so choose, and enemy models that were targeted for the assault may fire overwatch when this option is chosen.

If the player chooses, however, he may attempt a random charge by rolling 2d6. When doing this, the model MUST always move forward the number of inches rolled and overwatch is not allowed.

What'cha think?

Just get close and choose to 2D6 and you can ignore overwatch. easy way to break that rule :(

More reliable charges won't help because you can't get to assault range anymore unless you are Skyhammer.

Martel732 wrote:
More reliable charges won't help because you can't get to assault range anymore unless you are Skyhammer.

or fielding a green tide, and even then only if your not playing certain dakka armies that can literally table a tide in 2-3 turns......