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A quick google suggested Tamiya only made 80 million Euro in 2014, so definitely lagging behind GW there but they have been around since 1946 according to Wikipedia and you can by their stuff in a lot of toy stores, giving them a much broader distribution network than GW.


Sorry that's probably really off topic, but I adamantly stand by my point that GWs reasoning for doing something (like banning 3rd party models) is completely irrelevant if that thing potentially detracts from someone's hobby experience (like banning 3rd party models).
And that it being GWs policy does impact AoS, since any GW policy is enforced on any GW game in a GW controlled environment regardless of if it is an AoS policy or not..

"Play both games and see what you like."
"You're clearly anti-GW."

Did I miss something?
:/

 MWHistorian wrote:
"Play both games and see what you like."
"You're clearly anti-GW."

Did I miss something?
:/

Apparently the most recent AoS fanclub meeting. A shame too, the cool aid was apparently delicious.



**Note: the above is a joke, not an attack on anyone or any games they might like, I apologize in advance for any offence I may cause.**

That was an attack on aos players... otherwise you wouldn't have had to post that. People enjoy this game and im not sure why people cant leave those people be. There is not one completely positive thread on dakka for aos because pf the naysayers - many of which never played the game or only played once.

You know what they say

"If you have nothing good to say, don't say anything at...."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jonolikespie,

Most people play in flgs tournaments or with their personal group. You can play any models for aos at these events. Yes at gencon or warhammer world you cannot, but 95% of consumers and gamers don't make those conventions or major tournaments anyway.

 455_PWR wrote:
There is not one completely positive thread on dakka for aos because of the naysayers

I know right, it's almost like people have opinions and are entitled to share them here on Dakka. As I said above, it was a joke, I'm sorry if you took offence at it.


And irrelevant of how many people play in their FLGS it is still official GW policy not to use 3rd party minis. There are a great deal of people this rule will not effect, but there are some it will and it is a point against AoS because of that.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 bitethythumb wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
So you're all saying I can bring my KoW models to play AoS at an official GW event in a GW store?

nope... Gw has strict preference on using's its own models, as the leading manufacturers in miniatures and the only company with world wide stores it needs to maintain its upper hand in the market, its very stupid as a business model to let you use models from other competitors... Unless you play at a none gw store tournament in a nine gw store where they so not care... But this has nothing to do with AoS and everything to do with GW

None of that matters to me, the consumer.

KoW allowing other companies models does open up options, regardless of personal opinion on which models are better.

It is a point for KoW/against AoS that you can use other companies models.


Going off on a tangent too, are GW the leading miniature manufacturer? I'd have thought it would be someone like Reaper, Bandai or Tamiya. And the point about GW having worldwide stores is hilarious, as those stores are costing more than half their yearly revenue to keep open. Other companies are simply working with FLGSs, which helps small businesses and the local communities. That is good for the customers.

While there are A LOT of manufacturers that are way ahead of GW in miniature production I know for sure Gundam model company had like 600 million dollars profit or something recently. So that is one company way ahead of GW already but there are plenty more, especially for the historical market.

Gundam are not produced for tabletop wargaming, and GW does not do historicals, so neither of those examples really hold water...
Gundam produce everything from toy keychain fobs, to hyper-detailed scale model kits, so of course they are going to have a broader appeal, and thus more sales than GW...
none of which has anything to do with the topic at hand...
we are talking about two Fantasy 28mm wargames...
which Gundam models fit that category???

as for historical, which historical wargame miniature company brought in £120 million last year???
the only historical 28mm wargaming miniatures who's plastics are equal to GW's plastic quality is Perry Miniatures...
i highly doubt they did £120m in sales last year...
quality-wise, they are great, but every other company's plastic models pale in comparison, from what i've seen...
just take a look at Mantic's own Kingdom of Men minis:(...

as far as i'm concerned, the only company that can be compared to GW for plastics is Wyrd who have high enough production numbers, a game, a setting that is close enough to Fantasy, and quality plastics that rival GW...
personally, i don't think that their plastics are appreciably better, but they are more true-scale, which some people will prefer to GW's heroic-scale style, but i would say that they are on equal ground for quality...

@jonolikespie: i highly doubt that Reaper came close to GW's numbers last year, even with bringing in a few miliion on each Bones Kickstarter...
just the fact that they had to run Kickstarters shows that they can't compete with GW sales-wise...
both companies get huge marks against them for the choice to use Bones and Finecast, though...
where GW wins out is with their plastics...
i have a ton of Reaper metal minis, and there is not a single one that i would rather paint instead of a GW mini, which is why there is not a single Reaper mini in my gallery...
there are smaller companies doing Fantasy minis that appeal to me way more than Reaper, like Freebooter...

personally, i think that KoW allowing any manufacturers models is a smart move, but then they don't have to worry about in-store play, since they don't have any stores...
i think KoW would be dead in the water if they only allowed their minis in the game...
they still haven't produced a single mini that has made me reach for my wallet, and i buy a lot of different manufacturers' minis...

i can easily understand why GW would not allow non-GW minis for play in their stores, since the painted minis on the table are part of what promotes sales...
you may say it's a point against AoS, but promoting Reaper minis in a GW store wouldn't make sense...
why send people off to buy your competitor's minis???
at the end of the day, if you are going to play in a GW store, you use GW minis...
if you play at a club, you have the freedom to use whatever you please...
seems fair to me...

cheers
jah

Again, you can give a perfectly good explanation as to why GW have that policy in place, but it is still a policy that is bad for us, the customers.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Again, you can give a perfectly good explanation as to why GW have that policy in place, but it is still a policy that is bad for us, the customers.

not in my opinion, it isn't...
if it is for you, fair enough...
i happen to prefer the minis to be used as intended, and as fits the fluff...
the whole point of a mini, to me, is to evoke the setting that they belong in...
different strokes for different folks, and all that...

personally, i wouldn't try to shoehorn a Reaper mini into the AoS setting, just as i wouldn't try and shoehorn a GW mini into the Warlord setting...
for me, aesthetic is everything, but i do realize that i am probably in the minority there...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Again, you can give a perfectly good explanation as to why GW have that policy in place, but it is still a policy that is bad for us, the customers.

not in my opinion, it isn't...
if it is for you, fair enough...
i happen to prefer the minis to be used as intended, and as fits the fluff...
the whole point of a mini, to me, is to evoke the setting that they belong in...
different strokes for different folks, and all that...

personally, i wouldn't try to shoehorn a Reaper mini into the AoS setting, just as i wouldn't try and shoehorn a GW mini into the Warlord setting...
for me, aesthetic is everything, but i do realize that i am probably in the minority there...

cheers
jah

That argument falls apart with the Orks having literally junk for vehicles and GW only supplying a few variants, or the Imperial Guard having untold amounts of soldiers from Cave Men with clubs to Cadians etc. GW do not have the models to make most Guard and Ork armies only giving a us a minor selection.

Are there any survivors of Nippon in AOS? Model wise no but that does not mean they do not exist. Already I can see a reason to use Samurai models in an AOS human army and it's perfectly fluffy.

There are a lot of situations where you can use other companies models and be well with the fluff.




Also Mantic does not produce kingdom of man models.

@Swastakowey: sorry about that, i meant Basileans from KoW, but they are not really historicals anyway...

one thing to keep in mind, is that i was not presenting an argument in that bit you quoted, but an opinion...
i am a purist, plain and simple...
i have zero desire to mix manufacturers...

GW make enough Guard models to satisfy me, especially since FW is a part of GW...
i have no desire to model caveman Guard, but am a huge fan of Elysians, and Cadian upgrade packs...
Edit: the caveman Guard, and the other regiments that have only had a single drawing each, do not have fluff for me to try and evoke a moment from with my miniatures...

Orks are the scratch builder's dream, but which vehicles have rules without models these days???

GW used to make Nippon models, but have never expanded upon that area in the fluff...
the closest that they got was a Tzeentch story set in the Celestial Kingdom years ago...
for all intents and purposes, Nippon is not a part of the fluff, but simply a name on the map, which doesn't exist anymore...

one thing that i have noticed in your collection is that you use a lot of proxies, which automatically puts you at odds with GW's "use our models" policy...
your big gripe about being able to see pikes behind a hill, and thus have them targeted for shooting is one obvious example...
you are using Pike & Shot models, which the AoS rules are not written for...
there are not even any pike armed models in the game, let alone any marching with raised pikes, so i can see why you would run into issues with the line of sight rules...
it is a bit much to expect GW to have rules that take into account another manufacturer's models, when that is contrary to their design philosophy...
if you want to shoehorn your proxy models into the game, you have to expect a bit of hassle rule-wise...

"officially" there are no Samurai in AoS, so that is not really fluffy, but if you wanted to make it up, that is your prerogative...
it is just a stretch to expect to be able to use your Samurai in a GW store or event, when they don't exist in the setting according to GW...
at this point, Empire and Brettonians are the only old human regions represented by rules, and Legacy rules at that...
we don't know much about what is happening with regular humans yet...


cheers
jah

As has been stated repeatedly, GW view themselves as a miniature company, so the official policy on using GW minis isn't exactly surprising. You wouldn't buy a McD's and try to sit in a KFC to eat it!
I would argue Mantic don't allow you to use other minis - they actually require it. They have army lists for forces they have produced zero minis for. Some of their sci-fi stuff is pretty good, but their fantasy range - with the singular exception of zombies - is absolutely atrocious. Yes, GW stuff is more expensive than most, but as far as tabletop miniatures are concerned, they are a premium brand. Mantic's plastics wouldn't look anachronistic on a Heroquest board.

But as the GW mini policy effectively only applies at Warhammer World and in GW stores which are the minority of places where gaming takes place, I fail to see how this is somehow either anti-GW or pro-mantic or 'bad for the consumer' when it come to deciding between the two systems.

Quality of the models themselves is a purely subjective thing. Personally I think a lot of Mantic's range looks a lot better than the Sigmarines.

Regardless, if you prefer GW minis then you are entirely welcome to use them in KoW. The opposite is not true.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Quality of the models themselves is a purely subjective thing. Personally I think a lot of Mantic's range looks a lot better than the Sigmarines.

You mean aesthetic quality, I meant technical quality. One is subjective, the other not so much.
Whether you love/hate the style of GW minis, you really cannot argue the quality of the product. PP are the closest competitors on that front but they still aren't there yet. (Corvus Belli don't use anything other than cast metal so I'm not including them here!)
A lot of new Mantic stuff would have been considered amateurish a decade ago.

If you're using minis as a factor between the two games, then GW 'wins'.
Because if you really care about being able to play a tournament or whatever from either system in an official setting, Mantic don't care and GW do - so logically using GW minis is the better option as it doesn't restrict you in any way, whereas using someone else's could.

It's a bit like dating. Looks (minis and what the game looks like) are usually the first point of attraction, but the important thing is compatibility (rules/enjoyment)m in the long term.
And getting along with their friends (other people who like the game).
Playing KoW with Mantic minis is my idea of hobby hell, but I have no idea what the OP wants out of a game or the hobby in general, so to recommend anything other than giving both systems a fair crack of the whip would be disingenuous.

About the Gundam miniatures, FYI Gundam has a miniature game. Not very popular out of Asia, and well played in Italy and Philippines.

 bitethythumb wrote:
Blocks vs skirmish, take your pick... The thing I do not get is why did ye olde players not play KoW before AoS... KoW is clearly better than WHFB so why did they not just play that instead of "jumping ship"

Well whfb while bloated and unbalanceed was still acceptable and had an advantage of representing warhammer fluff. AoS on the other hand is too bad rules wise for me to accept and the fluff is some cartooony warcraftish yo magical oruks and ogores joke of a setting. Now both AoS and KoW are simple but KoW has 100x more depth and balance while AoS is "fix it yourself" trash, no brainer imo.

Ok, question.

I'm working with the IoB Elves, and added 10 White Lions.

Could I play a reasonable game of KoW with this as an army?

Mage
Prince on Griffon(can this even be used?)
10 Seaguard
10 Swordmasters
10 White Lions
5 Reavers


And unit wise, would units such as sword masters and white lions pretty much count as the same model block? ie: elves w/ handweapons, or are there different strength/specialty elf units in KoW?

Seaguard start at 20 man in KoW, but using them as spearmen they are 170 points.
Swordmasters and white lions kinda fill the same role and would both be counted as palace guard, at 105 points each.
The 5 reavers are 145.
The mage starts at 75 but has extra spells that can be bought, for +45, +30, +10 and +15.
Griffons don't appear to be a thing but you can use the dragon rules for them easy enough so that's 310.

All up that's a 1000 point list if you add an item or two to the lord and a spell or two to the mage. The game supposedly doesn't work the best under 1000, but 1000-2000 is a solid, if on the smaller side, game.

I'd say jump over the the KoW forum for that question, but the short version is "no", because KoW requires balanced composition of army lists: a regiment unlocks smaller "troop" sized units as well as a hero/monster/or warmachine.

You'd need to buff at least two of those units to 20-man regiments to unlock the ability to use those heroes.

 judgedoug wrote:
I'd say jump over the the KoW forum for that question, but the short version is "no", because KoW requires balanced composition of army lists: a regiment unlocks smaller "troop" sized units as well as a hero/monster/or warmachine.

You'd need to buff at least two of those units to 20-man regiments to unlock the ability to use those heroes.

Although you can have 10 men on a 20 man base if you do it nicely. It's doable but you are better having at least more than half required.

thanks guys!

Remember the new v2 rule book suggests allowing use of troops without the need to "unlock" them with regiments/hordes for smaller games around 750 points.

My wife and I had loads of great games of v1 kow with 1250 points or lower when there was no "unlocking" of troops. Most of our units were blocks of 10 infantry and 5 cavalry. So much more fun with more units and a varied selection imo.

I would say with the way they play, do both, they are not mutually exclusive games. I do not believe AoS is a "skirmish" game, I have yet to play or see a game that hasn't had as many or more models than we used in WHFB. with 1" separation you aren't far from being a block of some sort anyhow. That being said, they are both free rules, use extremely similar (or the exact same) models and are really nothing alike in the itches they scratch. Neither is really better in the "fluff" category, but I would give the nod to KoW (but then the #1 thing I hate about AoS is the IMO obscenely terrible fluff) mechanically I found that AoS plays "faster" but only when playing with friends and then after already deciding how we are handling certain issues. The best part of this is that it really is not an either/or question, If you didnt like WHFB there is a good chance you probably wont much like KoW. Our group has that dynamic, the ones that didnt like WHFB dont like KoW (though for full disclosure those same 4 utterly despise everything about AoS) They do have some different asthetics, but I would strongly recommend playing both.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Quality of the models themselves is a purely subjective thing. Personally I think a lot of Mantic's range looks a lot better than the Sigmarines.

Regardless, if you prefer GW minis then you are entirely welcome to use them in KoW. The opposite is not true.

I find it amazing how some people still fail to see this as a point against AoS. It's so, so simple...

Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Quality of the models themselves is a purely subjective thing. Personally I think a lot of Mantic's range looks a lot better than the Sigmarines.

Regardless, if you prefer GW minis then you are entirely welcome to use them in KoW. The opposite is not true.

I find it amazing how some people still fail to see this as a point against AoS. It's so, so simple...

Unless you're playing in a GW store, you can use whatever models you want in whatever game you want. I really don't see why you can't use a Tonka truck as Nagash if you choose to do so. Or a penny as a Dryad. If you're playing in a GW store, it's only fair that you're playing GW games/models anyhow: I mean, how else do you want them to pay their bills?

Since both games have free rules, just download the rules and try out the games with counters. If you're into models, look at which models suit your tastes more, because one man's awesome is another's awful. If you're into fluff and campaigns, read the wikis on the storylines and see which style of story you enjoy more. And look at what other people that are in your area play and enjoy, because at the end of the day, these aren't single player games.

Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Quality of the models themselves is a purely subjective thing. Personally I think a lot of Mantic's range looks a lot better than the Sigmarines.

Regardless, if you prefer GW minis then you are entirely welcome to use them in KoW. The opposite is not true.

I find it amazing how some people still fail to see this as a point against AoS. It's so, so simple...

Most people probably don't play in a GW store.

 Talys wrote:

Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Quality of the models themselves is a purely subjective thing. Personally I think a lot of Mantic's range looks a lot better than the Sigmarines.

Regardless, if you prefer GW minis then you are entirely welcome to use them in KoW. The opposite is not true.

I find it amazing how some people still fail to see this as a point against AoS. It's so, so simple...

Unless you're playing in a GW store, you can use whatever models you want in whatever game you want. I really don't see why you can't use a Tonka truck as Nagash if you choose to do so. Or a penny as a Dryad. If you're playing in a GW store, it's only fair that you're playing GW games/models anyhow: I mean, how else do you want them to pay their bills?

Since both games have free rules, just download the rules and try out the games with counters. If you're into models, look at which models suit your tastes more, because one man's awesome is another's awful. If you're into fluff and campaigns, read the wikis on the storylines and see which style of story you enjoy more. And look at what other people that are in your area play and enjoy, because at the end of the day, these aren't single player games.

Very well said, but unfortunately that doesn't quite address what was mentioned. Of course you can defend that GW is a miniature company and that they must defend and promote their models if they are all that they have (which imo, it is, at least fantasy-wise) but then should we start addressing Mantic as a rules company?

The point being addressed is a difference in attitude (philosophy, perhaps?) between both companies that flows through to their respective games inside their stores.

I thought it addressed what was mentioned. Aos is more of a casual game. There are very few gw only stores, and almost every flgs or private group here in wisconsin will let you proxy minis. I know people who have proxied stuff in 40k tournaments (flgs tournaments)to learn how units play before spending their money on official minis.

So basically the gw minis only comment is moot... unless you only play at a gw store or grand tournaments (which most kow and aos players don't). Im not sure why this argument continues...

Yeah, I don't play at a GW store as there isn't one anywhere remotely close enough to conveniently drive to on a regular basis. I am free to proxy whatever models I want when I play AoS with friends or at every local FLGS I've been to. In that respect, AoS is no different from Kings of War.

Requiring GW models to play GW games is only a requirement if you're playing on a GW owned and operated gaming table (such as in a GW retail store) OR if you're playing at a tournament that has instituted similar requirements. The Warhammer 40k rules "assume" you're using Citadel Miniatures, but don't require that you do so. The Age of Sigmar rules are basically the same. Games Workshop retail stores and official events, on the other hand, DO require GW Miniatures.

Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

The point being addressed is a difference in attitude (philosophy, perhaps?) between both companies that flows through to their respective games inside their stores.

Except Mantic have no retail premises. Nobody other than GW does.
So they aren't in a position to enforce any kind of retail premise rules like that even if they wanted to - but Mantic (and PP) do enforce an in-house minis rule at their official events.
Although current event packs for KoW don't have this requirement.

Which probably has absolutely nothing to do with 9 KoW army lists for which they produce no models.

RoperPG wrote:

Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

The point being addressed is a difference in attitude (philosophy, perhaps?) between both companies that flows through to their respective games inside their stores.

Except Mantic have no retail premises. Nobody other than GW does.
So they aren't in a position to enforce any kind of retail premise rules like that even if they wanted to - but Mantic (and PP) do enforce an in-house minis rule at their official events.
Although current event packs for KoW don't have this requirement.

Which probably has absolutely nothing to do with 9 KoW army lists for which they produce no models.

Mantic have said they will never produce Kingdom of Man models since they would rather people be creative and build what they want for all the various humans cultures it's supposed to represent. Unless this changes they will never enforce models. Even flames of war allows you to use 50% other manufacturers models in their tournaments. Mantic does not care (source, our club is having a sponsored tournament end of the year and their current pack says all models are allowed). To top it off GW is the only company that tries to make it a rule to use their models (in my 7th edition book they have a little rule at the beginning about citadel models or something).

Anyway, mantic will not be making a kingdom of man army because they are the imperial guard of the setting. Numerous, varied and full of flavour. No one company can cater to such a faction without doing a GW and pretending they no longer exist.