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 Swastakowey wrote:
Mantic have said they will never produce Kingdom of Man models since they would rather people be creative and build what they want for all the various humans cultures it's supposed to represent. Unless this changes they will never enforce models.

You hear "we love the community", I hear "we haven't a clue where to start, so let's spin it".
I specifically said that KoW has no mini requirements. (Dreadball does though - I couldn't find any other Mantic event packs.)

People are implying GW are somehow ethically corrupt for wanting people to use GW minis to play GW games in GW stores and events, whilst intimating that Mantic are the saviours of the people, where anything goes.
They aren't.
Mantic aren't even trying to hide the fact they are in a massive grab for disillusioned WFB players right now.
Enforcing any kind of 'Mantic minis only' rule would sabotage that.
It's not philanthropic, it's as entirely bottom-line driven as any accusation levelled at GW's attitudes.

Play whichever system you and your friends prefer, but GW minis is the logical choice though - because GW do care what you use, Mantic don't - so GW minis allow you to do both, unless you never have any intention of playing a GW game.
(Also, you wouldn't be relying on a successful Kickstarter every time you wanted new models for your army.)

RoperPG wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Mantic have said they will never produce Kingdom of Man models since they would rather people be creative and build what they want for all the various humans cultures it's supposed to represent. Unless this changes they will never enforce models.

You hear "we love the community", I hear "we haven't a clue where to start, so let's spin it".
I specifically said that KoW has no mini requirements. (Dreadball does though - I couldn't find any other Mantic event packs.)

People are implying GW are somehow ethically corrupt for wanting people to use GW minis to play GW games in GW stores and events, whilst intimating that Mantic are the saviours of the people, where anything goes.
They aren't.
Mantic aren't even trying to hide the fact they are in a massive grab for disillusioned WFB players right now.
Enforcing any kind of 'Mantic minis only' rule would sabotage that.
It's not philanthropic, it's as entirely bottom-line driven as any accusation levelled at GW's attitudes.

Play whichever system you and your friends prefer, but GW minis is the logical choice though - because GW do care what you use, Mantic don't - so GW minis allow you to do both, unless you never have any intention of playing a GW game.
(Also, you wouldn't be relying on a successful Kickstarter every time you wanted new models for your army.)

No they have said this since the start... Anyway

I was merely stating they choose not to enforce it. It's a choice. They even in person have mentioned their vision of Kingdom of man and what companies make great kingdom of man models. You can argue all you want that they cant enforce it etc with some weak arguments but it's your word vs theirs and frankly why would anyone believe that they don't enforce it because they cant?

They don't have to hide it, because again they don't care. They are hobbyists first and while their flavor of armies are very different to GW ones they don't have to pretend they are being original like GW is trying to do.

It's simply a difference in attitude. Most gaming companies are pretty open and frank about everything and are far more lenient. You can tell that they are gamers. When it comes to GW employees it's like talking to a brick wall. I saw a GW employee tell a kid to L2P against eldar. Another GW employee took Smaug to a tournament and ate all the players while defensively talking about how beatable it is. My main point was you can try pin it down to some kind of odd incompetence, but ultimately it's just a difference in attitude towards players between the companies. I mean, Manitc doesnt charge me more because I dwell in NZ for example. Again, different attitudes.

RoperPG wrote:
People are implying GW are somehow ethically corrupt for wanting people to use GW minis to play GW games in GW stores and events

No, they are ethically corrupt for trying to IP bully 3rd party manufacturers out of business by claiming they own the rights to use Roman Numberals or arrows on models. Not allowing people to use other models is simply a policy that is restrictive to us, the consumers, and therefore bad.

RoperPG wrote:
Mantic aren't even trying to hide the fact they are in a massive grab for disillusioned WFB players right now.

Of course they are, they are the people who made Warhammer Fantasy originally and WHFB is now dead. KoW is in every sense it's spiritual successor and they are running with that.

RoperPG wrote:
Enforcing any kind of 'Mantic minis only' rule would sabotage that.
It's not philanthropic, it's as entirely bottom-line driven as any accusation levelled at GW's attitudes.

Regardless of what the reasoning behind it is (and I would argue the reason is because Mantic is a company run by hobbyist and gamers for hobbyists and gamers, rather than a company of accountants run for shareholders) it is a policy that allows a lot of freedom for us, the consumers, and is therefore good.

RoperPG wrote:
You hear "we love the community", I hear "we haven't a clue where to start, so let's spin it".

Mantic can't match the prices on historical human models because of how competitive the market is, and they've said that publically. They'll release their own human factions (Basileans, Northern Alliance, Ophidians) with a fantasy aesthetic instead.

RoperPG wrote:
Mantic aren't even trying to hide the fact they are in a massive grab for disillusioned WFB players right now.

If there's a market for a product (mass-battle fantasy) someone's going to meet that demand. GW have chosen not to, nor do they have a divine right to. What, you would prefer that collective economic forces just tell mass-battle players to go themselves? Even if GW wasn't canning the Old World, it has no moral or ethical right to "own" either the market or the tropes behind the game. I'm unclear, what point is being made here?

RoperPG wrote:
Enforcing any kind of 'Mantic minis only' rule would sabotage that.
It's not philanthropic, it's as entirely bottom-line driven as any accusation levelled at GW's attitudes.

Of course it is, because the idea is stupid for a game (mass-battle fantasy) where there is a strong competition for models and 99.9% of games are played in unofficial venues. There' much better ways to use resources than to fight an unwinnable fight. Getting people playing the game is the most important thing at this stage in the game/business lifecycle.

RoperPG wrote:
but GW minis is the logical choice though - because GW do care what you use, Mantic don't - so GW minis allow you to do both, unless you never have any intention of playing a GW game.

That's a UK-centric view that has no value outside of the UK, because the UK's the only place GW has enough shop coverage for that to make a difference.

RoperPG wrote:
(Also, you wouldn't be relying on a successful Kickstarter every time you wanted new models for your army.)

From one of Ronnie's video blogs: that Mantic stock with the KS model because the % of backers that are new e-mail addresses to their database is so high. Yes, upfront funding is a great boon to a business and they'd be daft to forego it, but it's the marketing reach of KS that is the big prize. There are already units being released for KoW that weren't KS-funded, and there's a load more on the way.

I've read through the KoW rules and I like the sound of them. Tried AoS and found it wanting. Nothing about the game system was good and the way GW handled old customers is well shocking.

The good news for KoW is that the unit footprint (movent tray) is what matters. So you can use round base movement trays and use AoS models. Or just carry on using your existing WHF forces.

It would have been nice fore GW to at least continue to include square bases when they rebox their existing products.

I have played both games. I prefer Age of Sigmar. My concerns with Kings of War...

Kings of War is a blatant rip off of Warhammer Fantasy Battle. It has a few rules changes that speed up play, but you sacrifice a great deal of depth, the background of WFB is one of the primary reasons I played. The background to KOW is really sad. The writing is done by someone who does not use english as a primary language. When you base your whole game and ethos on what others have done, and you pull that off badly, what kind of future do you have? Every new release by Mantic is crowd funded which shows that they do not have the capacity to manufacture things when they want or need to. The models for KOW are terrible. Just about no one I know uses them, so you end up using GW models to play. So when you have a company whose models are god awful, who can't design anything on their own, who can't write or produce beautiful books, who's background is copied from a game that is no longer being developed (there won't be anything new for them to steal), who has to use crowd funding to produce anything, I just don't see a future for KOW. My prediction is that as the years go by AOS will become stronger and KOW will be played by old gamers that have been playing with the same guys for years and buy all their stuff online.Since they aren't the flgs target market, stores will end up supporting AOS because it will bring new blood, new players, and sales. KOW won't.

AOS on the other hand, is much misunderstood The rules don't live on the 4 basic pages, they live on the Warscrolls and the scenarios in the hardcover books. AOS plays just fine if you are playing with friends. It breaks down on a competitive level, but there is an easy fix. A bunch of guys have created Project Point Cost, and these rules balance armies quite nicely for AOS. AOS is a skirmish game. It does not have units wheeling and marching in ranks. I am an old school player who loved WFB. But guess what, I also loved Leviathan, Chronopia, D&D Battlesystem, Warzone (the first edition), Confrontation. You get the point. Change happens. Here's the thing, if I wanted to play WFB I still own the game and could play it. I get the feeling that a lot of the people who have moved to KOW have done so mainly to spite GW. Like someone else brought up earlier, would anyone even be thinking about moving to KOW if WFB was still supported? WFB had hundreds of spells, KOW has 6. WFB allowed character customization and had hundreds of cool magic items, KOW not so much. It's Drazhoath the Ashen or silly names like Brakki Barkka for Chaos Dwarfs. What you should probably do is buy a copy of WFB 8th ed. and play it. You can also play AOS if you like. Who knows, in the future GW could decide to do Advanced AOS with formations and everything and crush Mantic like a bug!

Smellingsalts wrote:
I have played both games. I prefer Age of Sigmar. My concerns with Kings of War...

Kings of War is a blatant rip off of Warhammer Fantasy Battle. It has a few rules changes that speed up play, but you sacrifice a great deal of depth, the background of WFB is one of the primary reasons I played. The background to KOW is really sad. The writing is done by someone who does not use english as a primary language. When you base your whole game and ethos on what others have done, and you pull that off badly, what kind of future do you have? Every new release by Mantic is crowd funded which shows that they do not have the capacity to manufacture things when they want or need to. The models for KOW are terrible. Just about no one I know uses them, so you end up using GW models to play. So when you have a company whose models are god awful, who can't design anything on their own, who can't write or produce beautiful books, who's background is copied from a game that is no longer being developed (there won't be anything new for them to steal), who has to use crowd funding to produce anything, I just don't see a future for KOW. My prediction is that as the years go by AOS will become stronger and KOW will be played by old gamers that have been playing with the same guys for years and buy all their stuff online.Since they aren't the flgs target market, stores will end up supporting AOS because it will bring new blood, new players, and sales. KOW won't.

AOS on the other hand, is much misunderstood The rules don't live on the 4 basic pages, they live on the Warscrolls and the scenarios in the hardcover books. AOS plays just fine if you are playing with friends. It breaks down on a competitive level, but there is an easy fix. A bunch of guys have created Project Point Cost, and these rules balance armies quite nicely for AOS. AOS is a skirmish game. It does not have units wheeling and marching in ranks. I am an old school player who loved WFB. But guess what, I also loved Leviathan, Chronopia, D&D Battlesystem, Warzone (the first edition), Confrontation. You get the point. Change happens. Here's the thing, if I wanted to play WFB I still own the game and could play it. I get the feeling that a lot of the people who have moved to KOW have done so mainly to spite GW. Like someone else brought up earlier, would anyone even be thinking about moving to KOW if WFB was still supported? WFB had hundreds of spells, KOW has 6. WFB allowed character customization and had hundreds of cool magic items, KOW not so much. It's Drazhoath the Ashen or silly names like Brakki Barkka for Chaos Dwarfs. What you should probably do is buy a copy of WFB 8th ed. and play it. You can also play AOS if you like. Who knows, in the future GW could decide to do Advanced AOS with formations and everything and crush Mantic like a bug!

*slow clap*

Kings of Snore, amirite

 Bottle wrote:
Kings of Snore, amirite

No, you're not

 sing your life wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
Kings of Snore, amirite

No, you're not

Kings of Bore, then ;-)

 sing your life wrote:

Smellingsalts wrote:
I have played both games. I prefer Age of Sigmar. My concerns with Kings of War...

Kings of War is a blatant rip off of Warhammer Fantasy Battle. It has a few rules changes that speed up play, but you sacrifice a great deal of depth, the background of WFB is one of the primary reasons I played. The background to KOW is really sad. The writing is done by someone who does not use english as a primary language. When you base your whole game and ethos on what others have done, and you pull that off badly, what kind of future do you have? Every new release by Mantic is crowd funded which shows that they do not have the capacity to manufacture things when they want or need to. The models for KOW are terrible. Just about no one I know uses them, so you end up using GW models to play. So when you have a company whose models are god awful, who can't design anything on their own, who can't write or produce beautiful books, who's background is copied from a game that is no longer being developed (there won't be anything new for them to steal), who has to use crowd funding to produce anything, I just don't see a future for KOW. My prediction is that as the years go by AOS will become stronger and KOW will be played by old gamers that have been playing with the same guys for years and buy all their stuff online.Since they aren't the flgs target market, stores will end up supporting AOS because it will bring new blood, new players, and sales. KOW won't.

AOS on the other hand, is much misunderstood The rules don't live on the 4 basic pages, they live on the Warscrolls and the scenarios in the hardcover books. AOS plays just fine if you are playing with friends. It breaks down on a competitive level, but there is an easy fix. A bunch of guys have created Project Point Cost, and these rules balance armies quite nicely for AOS. AOS is a skirmish game. It does not have units wheeling and marching in ranks. I am an old school player who loved WFB. But guess what, I also loved Leviathan, Chronopia, D&D Battlesystem, Warzone (the first edition), Confrontation. You get the point. Change happens. Here's the thing, if I wanted to play WFB I still own the game and could play it. I get the feeling that a lot of the people who have moved to KOW have done so mainly to spite GW. Like someone else brought up earlier, would anyone even be thinking about moving to KOW if WFB was still supported? WFB had hundreds of spells, KOW has 6. WFB allowed character customization and had hundreds of cool magic items, KOW not so much. It's Drazhoath the Ashen or silly names like Brakki Barkka for Chaos Dwarfs. What you should probably do is buy a copy of WFB 8th ed. and play it. You can also play AOS if you like. Who knows, in the future GW could decide to do Advanced AOS with formations and everything and crush Mantic like a bug!

*slow clap*

I was about to tell sing your life theirs was one of the best posts I had seen in a while, but then I continued to scroll down to the slow clap gif and it made my day

+1 exalts and internets to the both of you!

+1 to Smellingsalts post.

However, i think you're wrong about your prediction of AoS moving ahead with KoW having nothing to copy. Stormcast? Why not try Mantic's new Gold Elementals! Cygnar and Kaldor? We just made some new steam bot rules for factions that are totally not copied from them!

My other dislike of KoW is what I'm hearing about their storyline driven by the players. That's awesome on paper but what happens when the not-lizardmen are swarms by the not-WoC? Do they officially kill off that line in the fluff or will they constantly lie about the win rates so that no faction crushes another?

Besides these misgivings though, KoW is a good game and is solving the problem for players who want points and ranks in their games. That's what the hobby's about, everyone enjoying themselves.

Clearly a fair bit of ignorance going on here:

Kings of War is nothing like Warhammer. Like nothing at all like it. I think the only thing even close to similar would be Bretonians but Bretonians are hardly an original theme anyway.

As for the story being driven by players, they will have campaigns with REASONABLE goals. For example I think the next one if Evil wins they open a rift or something and if good wins they get a major watch tower in a strategic location, both of which have ramifications to the fluff (can;t remember the outcome details). Unlike GW campaigns of the past one side winning is not a stupidly huge blow to another side.

Also the not Lizardmen are nothing like GW Lizardmen. It's also worth noting Lizardmen aren't native to GW... Same goes for all the KOW/Warhammer Factions.

Remember GW stuff is hardly original. It's hard if you only see GW logos everywhere I know but bear with me here... gerneric fantasy worlds with a twist is what 99% of Fantasy is. To say one is copying the other is silly.

A quick read of their rule book will show you very quickly the vast differences in the worlds of the 2 factions.





As for AOS it will fail. The only reason it is still alive is simply because it happened to have a GW logo. Without that logo it would already be dead, well more dead than it already is...

Ah, very good points there.(Except for that last bit but you're rather upset at the anti-KoW talk, so no blame there)

That's good to know that the player affected story will have limits on it, that's good progression.

Nothing's original but KoW does have heavy inspiration from Warhammer. The new book even has "The game of fantasy battles!" on the cover. Not sure what a debate there can prove though. Mantic's just trying to get good business, hard to argue otherwise.

Baron Klatz wrote:
Ah, very good points there.(Except for that last bit but you're rather upset at the anti-KoW talk, so no blame there)

That's good to know that the player affected story will have limits on it, that's good progression.

Nothing's original but KoW does have heavy inspiration from Warhammer. The new book even has "The game of fantasy battles!" on the cover. Not sure what a debate there can prove though. Mantic's just trying to get good business, hard to argue otherwise.

No... I have always been adamant about the AOS failing. I give it 3 years unless it goes through heavy changes.

As for originality... how does it borrow from Warhammer? It looks to me more like a generic fantasy world with a twist. "The game of fantasy battles" is just a poke at GW because mantic grew by about 300% as a result of AOS (and as a result sold out big time on their rule books). Nothing to do with copying of the setting or anything...

Again, if you give it a read it's not really like Warhammer at all.

Three years is fair enough. I expect GW to add enough stuff to keep it going from there. (Extra rules, scenarios, races, etc.)

I'm not much for debates so I'll stop here.

As I said though, it's all about enjoying our hobbies. So best wishes for you and KoW.

Baron Klatz wrote:
Three years is fair enough. I expect GW to add enough stuff to keep it going from there. (Extra rules, scenarios, races, etc.)

I'm not much for debates so I'll stop here.

As I said though, it's all about enjoying our hobbies. So best wishes for you and KoW.

I agree, unless they add and change it up I doubt it will last in it's current state. They'd be silly not to change it.

Swastakowey, I ask this with genuine curiosity (I know tone is lost in posts so trying to make that abundantly clear... this is not an attempt to troll or any of that other nonsense).

If KoW is such a quality game why did people not flock to it prior to GW pulling the plug on 8th edition? Edit - actually, I think you were not arguing KoW was a quality game, just that it was different, so this might not be answerable/appropriate (in which case, sorry )

And, apologies as I guess this is two questions rather than one, if the GW brand/logo is so strong... won't that keep AoS alive and kicking despite its current ruleset?

I honestly think both games can survive harmoniously (especially with the surge of circle-based movement trays) as they scratch different gaming itches. I just cannot find anyone by me familiar with KoW who is willing to run me through a couple games, so I have not actually experienced the game beyond the glancing through the digital rules.

quiestdeus wrote:
Swastakowey, I ask this with genuine curiosity (I know tone is lost in posts so trying to make that abundantly clear... this is not an attempt to troll or any of that other nonsense).

If KoW is such a quality game why did people not flock to it prior to GW pulling the plug on 8th edition? Edit - actually, I think you were not arguing KoW was a quality game, just that it was different, so this might not be answerable/appropriate (in which case, sorry )

And, apologies as I guess this is two questions rather than one, if the GW brand/logo is so strong... won't that keep AoS alive and kicking despite its current ruleset?

I honestly think both games can survive harmoniously (especially with the surge of circle-based movement trays) as they scratch different gaming itches. I just cannot find anyone by me familiar with KoW who is willing to run me through a couple games, so I have not actually experienced the game beyond the glancing through the digital rules.

My argument was about the fluff yes rather than the game. I didn't like warhammer fantasy battle. Not my kind of game. I joined Kings of War as soon as V2 came out.

Well the GW logo is meaning less and less nowadays. But one thing to note is that whenever GW releases something of moderate size (not like their airbrush line nobody talks about) it gets attention. Especially an update. AOS was both of those and as a result AOS got a head start on things. If another company released this game it would have been laughed out of business. I think the brand was enough to get people interested but I don't think it's enough to keep people playing what is essentially a marine v chaos game with some other factions on the side.

As for the games it always depends on the area. As with all wargames it's not like they are against each other (most wargames feature other companies models or terrain here and so on. GW is the only real exception here). They are totally different games.

The age of kickstarter is what I believe is really going to kill AoS and could do some serious harm to KoW as well. There are just too many other games out there and some of them are superior others are not. There is finite gamer dollars out there, and brand loyalty is not enough to keep a company afloat. AoS is subpar to its competitors, its neither new nor revolutionary (most of its mechanics are just watered down warhammer anyway) GW missed a golden opportunity, but I dont think they care so long as they sell models. Games like Wrath of Kings, Relic Knights, etc... are going to be chipping away at the market. GW is simply too expensive, and mantics models are just awful for the most part.

Swastakowey wrote:Clearly a fair bit of ignorance going on here:

Kings of War is nothing like Warhammer. Like nothing at all like it.

So what you are saying is that from day 1 Mantic hasn't strategically picked armies for their game which are able to be proxied by WHFB models, and that they didn't decide around the same time as the announcement for AoS to add beastmen, lizardmen, Tomb Kings, and Warriors of Chaos to their list of armies despite having no planned dates to release models for them.

Swastakowey wrote:As for the story being driven by players, they will have campaigns with REASONABLE goals. For example I think the next one if Evil wins they open a rift or something and if good wins they get a major watch tower in a strategic location, both of which have ramifications to the fluff (can;t remember the outcome details). Unlike GW campaigns of the past one side winning is not a stupidly huge blow to another side.

That actually sounds really good, and I'm glad they are doing it right.

Swastakowey wrote: Also the not Lizardmen are nothing like GW Lizardmen. It's also worth noting Lizardmen aren't native to GW... Same goes for all the KOW/Warhammer Factions.

Remember GW stuff is hardly original. It's hard if you only see GW logos everywhere I know but bear with me here... gerneric fantasy worlds with a twist is what 99% of Fantasy is. To say one is copying the other is silly.

A quick read of their rule book will show you very quickly the vast differences in the worlds of the 2 factions.

Swastakowey wrote: As for originality... how does it borrow from Warhammer? It looks to me more like a generic fantasy world with a twist. "The game of fantasy battles" is just a poke at GW because mantic grew by about 300% as a result of AOS (and as a result sold out big time on their rule books). Nothing to do with copying of the setting or anything...

Again, if you give it a read it's not really like Warhammer at all.

I know its hard if you never actually read what you're responding to but bear with me here... that's not even close to what they were talking about.

No one cares if Braggi Breggi Broggi, lord of the Broggi dwarves, puts his pants on a half tilt to the right. The point being made is that Kings of War, as a game, has clearly from day one been trying to exist as a knock-off WHFB. Despite the pretty expansive and rich history of fantasy settings you really want to make a case that Kings of War just happening to have exactly all of the same major factions as WHFB is simply coincidence? Sure elves, dwarves, orcs, and undead are present in overwhelming majority, but what about ratmen, beastmen, or lizardmen? They've all been present in other fantasy settings, but how many have had them in starring roles rather than low level, uncultured mooks? And why does the description for the Twilight Kin Mega Army box sound so similar to Dark Elves rather than say, oh I don't know, DnD Drow or something.

Twilight Kin are Elves for the most part; depraved, tainted souls that kill for pleasure. Mixing their Elven brethren's battle prowess with a viciousness that is only rivalled by the hatred of the Abyssal beings the Twilight Kin ally with on the battlefield, these dark Elves employ the use of stealth, speed and an unhealthy use of poison when they march to war.

The concern raised is what Kings of War, as a game designed to attract disillusioned WHFB players, will do now that it doesn't have WHFB to leech players off of. Will it make an effort to add new races and units that clearly have no close GW analogue, or will it become stagnant. Will the actual models and publications be improved to try and attract new players, or will they continue to run with the idea that they can survive on selling bare bones products to people whose only concern is pushing cheap tokens around the board because they like the rules.

I want to emphasize that I personally, have no beef against Mantic or Kings of War, and I think its great that there is another game very similar to WHFB for fans to play now that AoS has replaced it. I'm not interested in KoW, but I'm sure that if Mantic are good designers they'll be able to do well to make KoW successful.

Swastakowey wrote: As for AOS it will fail. The only reason it is still alive is simply because it happened to have a GW logo. Without that logo it would already be dead, well more dead than it already is...

Swastakowey wrote: No... I have always been adamant about the AOS failing. I give it 3 years unless it goes through heavy changes.

Swastakowey wrote: I agree, unless they add and change it up I doubt it will last in it's current state. They'd be silly not to change it.

Repeating your own words doesn't make something true. At the moment no one knows how AoS is doing other than GW, and they've been recorded as being satisfied so far with the results. Now I'm pretty sure that anyone would agree that GW wouldn't tell people if they were dissatisfied for risk of ruining consumer confidence, so we can regard how they feel on the matter.

That said, you have no more of an inkling of anyone else on how the game is doing overall, and your insistence that they change it is meaningless so long as there are people who like the type of game that it is.

Kickstarter is a brilliant tool, the way its being used by some companies. Its the best kind of marketing research you can do.

It started off as crowdfunding, but its morphed into a tool which allows a company to gague interest in a product before it does the majority of work on a product. What company wouldn't want to use something like that?

I mean, if you're selling widgets, do you want to know you'll sell 1000 widgets BEFORE you start making them, or after you've already made 10,000?

Why anyone gets down on these companies for not wanting to take stupid risks when there's another way is beyond me.

Again ignorance. Have you read and looked at the races and how they differ?

Lets take Lizardmen... In Warhammer fantasy they are a space faring, Aztec themed dying race of neutered lizards who are strong magic users.

In Kings of War they are a fire based faction. Their limited magic and many of their soldiers based around fire. They have pirates with black powder weapons, explorer style pikemen and so on.

They are completely different... in fact ex warhammer players have complained a lot because the new factions are not like GW factions... They complained because what they called the "not empire list" was mostly filled with Halfings and not human. Or the "Not Lizardmen list" was filled with fire breathing not very magical dudes instead of the GW style. A lot of GW models don't have a place in KOW too (which was a source for complaints too). Lots of complaints about the Ratkin differences being too much for their GW theme to fit in easily.

The rules are not a rip off of GW either... in fact they are completely different. Of course if you look and day "they are both fantasy and both have ranks so therefore they are rip offs" then yes I can see how you may think this. However after playing both games I think you will find your opinion very incorrect.

I mean you can say all you want about how it's some subpar rip off, but at the end of the day all it takes is one look at the fluff or the rules to see how different it is. Mechanically and in terms of fluff.

I would not listen to Flasks guesses on another game. For example his assumption that the Lizards are uncultured mooks is wrongs (black powder weapons? Pretty unique to Lizards I would assume) and so on.


Like all fantasy there are similarates but KOW is certainly not a rip off or a low grade knock off etc. In my groups opinion the idea behind KOW is a fast pace tactic heavy game with a lot of player customization rather than a degenerate clone.

Swastakowey wrote:(most wargames feature other companies models or terrain here and so on. GW is the only real exception here)

Citation needed. Because last I checked no major wargame company advertised their product alongside a competitor's product without either some mutual deal or an inability to provide an equivalent product. Like it or not Games Workshop follows a horizontal integration model where they want to provide you with everything you could possibly need to play their games.

Also GW isn't even the only company that places restrictions on things like kitbashing, and yet no one ever seems to mention that.

argonak wrote:Kickstarter is a brilliant tool, the way its being used by some companies. Its the best kind of marketing research you can do.

It started off as crowdfunding, but its morphed into a tool which allows a company to gague interest in a product before it does the majority of work on a product. What company wouldn't want to use something like that?

I mean, if you're selling widgets, do you want to know you'll sell 1000 widgets BEFORE you start making them, or after you've already made 10,000?

Why anyone gets down on these companies for not wanting to take stupid risks when there's another way is beyond me.

Because what Kickstarter is becoming is exactly what it wasn't supposed to be. It was made for the purpose of allowing products which otherwise would never have the chance to be made due to lack of funding or corporate interest the chance to actually be pursued.

The problem with kickstarter as market research is that it requires consumers to put down money on a product which has no guarantee about quality. That's fine when you're dealing with amateurs, but when you get established companies to essentially use their own customers to foot part of the bill for something they had the resources to do in the first place, its pretty damn abusive.

Do I blame them for trying? Heck no, its an incredibly logical decision, but you can't argue that really the major winner in this case is the company who now has more money for investors and executives.

Warlord Games has tons of terrain from other manufacturers and sells DAK infantry from Perry Brothers. They are fully capable of making DAK, btw.

Jack Flask wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:(most wargames feature other companies models or terrain here and so on. GW is the only real exception here)

Citation needed. Because last I checked no major wargame company advertised their product alongside a competitor's product without either some mutual deal or an inability to provide an equivalent product. Like it or not Games Workshop follows a horizontal integration model where they want to provide you with everything you could possibly need to play their games.

Well I will take Warlord Games first. Warlord games sells items from other manufacturers IN THEIR sets. They feature other companies terrain (despite also making their own), other companies models (notably perry miniatures and other scales) in their rulebook and more. My black powder book has some cool stuff from other companies.

There are more I will just need to check them when I get home for more details.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Warlord Games has tons of terrain from other manufacturers and sells DAK infantry from Perry Brothers. They are fully capable of making DAK, btw.

They also sell stuff from plenty of other places. I think their Zulu Wars Gatling gun is from some random model maker. They have those cool mdf stuff from another company. I think they recently said they have plans with Wargames Factory (cant remember the company) to help each others ranges grow or something.

Pretty cool company actually.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Again ignorance. Have you read and looked at the races and how they differ?

Lets take Lizardmen... In Warhammer fantasy they are a space faring, Aztec themed dying race of neutered lizards who are strong magic users.

In Kings of War they are a fire based faction. Their limited magic and many of their soldiers based around fire. They have pirates with black powder weapons, explorer style pikemen and so on.

They are completely different... in fact ex warhammer players have complained a lot because the new factions are not like GW factions... They complained because what they called the "not empire list" was mostly filled with Halfings and not human. Or the "Not Lizardmen list" was filled with fire breathing not very magical dudes instead of the GW style. A lot of GW models don't have a place in KOW too (which was a source for complaints too). Lots of complaints about the Ratkin differences being too much for their GW theme to fit in easily.

Funny you should insist that because I can't see those Reptilian rules since I'm not in the beta, but reading the Ratmen rules I find it hard to believe that people would find it hard to proxy any of those units with their older GW models. And again, the argument had nothing to do with lore, at all.

 Swastakowey wrote:
The rules are not a rip off of GW either... in fact they are completely different. Of course if you look and day "they are both fantasy and both have ranks so therefore they are rip offs" then yes I can see how you may think this. However after playing both games I think you will find your opinion very incorrect.

Really because I just read through them and they sound exactly like what everyone claims to like so much about WHFB. The units in blocks, the apparently complex dynamics of movement, etc.

Now I'm not claiming to be an expert on WHFB, because I'm relatively unfamiliar with it, but considering immediately after AoS there were so many people trying to get others to start KoW I find your assertions hard to believe.

After all, the burden of proof is on you, and well you never seem to bring any.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I mean you can say all you want about how it's some subpar rip off, but at the end of the day all it takes is one look at the fluff or the rules to see how different it is. Mechanically and in terms of fluff.

Funny because I didn't actually say that. I specifically said that I had nothing against it and I don't. I don't know if its better or worse than WHFB, nor do I care. As far as it tailoring its factions to fit someone transferring over with a old collection from WHFB, I still haven't seen anything demonstrating otherwise. And personally I see nothing wrong with that if Mantic can make it work.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I would not listen to Flasks guesses on another game. For example his assumption that the Lizards are uncultured mooks is wrongs (black powder weapons? Pretty unique to Lizards I would assume) and so on.

Reading comprehension.

I specifically said "in other games" as in neither KoW or WHFB. I meant that in reference to their depiction in various incarnations of Forgotten Realms DnD, Warcraft Kobolds (who are rats despite being minor draconic in DnD), and a variety of other generic fantasy video games.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Warlord Games has tons of terrain from other manufacturers and sells DAK infantry from Perry Brothers. They are fully capable of making DAK, btw.

Warlord Games also sells multiple other games out of their webstore, that's their choice and part of their business model. Just like how they will soon be distributing Wargames Factory miniatures. They're as much a distributor for other companies as they are a miniature producer.

And yet they don't produce DAK infantry which means they are in fact unable to provide an equivalent product, by choice. If they did produce their own DAK infantry then they could sell both, but again that would be their choice.

GW is no more the bad guy for only selling their own miniatures than Privateer Press is for only selling theirs.

 Swastakowey wrote:

Jack Flask wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:(most wargames feature other companies models or terrain here and so on. GW is the only real exception here)

Citation needed. Because last I checked no major wargame company advertised their product alongside a competitor's product without either some mutual deal or an inability to provide an equivalent product. Like it or not Games Workshop follows a horizontal integration model where they want to provide you with everything you could possibly need to play their games.

Well I will take Warlord Games first. Warlord games sells items from other manufacturers IN THEIR sets. They feature other companies terrain (despite also making their own), other companies models (notably perry miniatures and other scales) in their rulebook and more. My black powder book has some cool stuff from other companies.

There are more I will just need to check them when I get home for more details.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Warlord Games has tons of terrain from other manufacturers and sells DAK infantry from Perry Brothers. They are fully capable of making DAK, btw.

They also sell stuff from plenty of other places. I think their Zulu Wars Gatling gun is from some random model maker. They have those cool mdf stuff from another company. I think they recently said they have plans with Wargames Factory (cant remember the company) to help each others ranges grow or something.

Pretty cool company actually.

They have a distribution agreement. How is this so hard to understand. They have no reason not to show off those other miniatures because they can provide them.

Smellingsalts wrote:
Kings of War is a blatant rip off of Warhammer Fantasy Battle...

Holy

Ok, I'd like to say this only once so let me be super clear about it.

Kings of War was designed, developed, and written by the same people that made Warhammer Fantasy Battles into what it was.

Smellingsalts wrote:
It has a few rules changes that speed up play, but you sacrifice a great deal of depth

Complexity =/= depth. This is is a damn good thing, the game is nowhere near as slow and bloated as 8th ed was.

Smellingsalts wrote:
The background to KOW is really sad.

Your subjective opinion, don't state it as a fact.

Smellingsalts wrote:
Every new release by Mantic is crowd funded which shows that they do not have the capacity to manufacture things when they want or need to.

No it doesn't. Not at all. They ARE manufacturing the things they want and need quicker because of it.

Smellingsalts wrote:
The models for KOW are terrible.

Again, opinion. GW has some real crap too.

Smellingsalts wrote:
Just about no one I know uses them, so you end up using GW models to play.

Somehting you are allowed to do even in official events because Mantic don't see us, the customers, as walking wallets who's favourite part of the hobby is handing them out money.

Smellingsalts wrote:
So when you have a company whose models are god awful, who can't design anything on their own, who can't write or produce beautiful books, who's background is copied from a game that is no longer being developed (there won't be anything new for them to steal), who has to use crowd funding to produce anything, I just don't see a future for KOW.

And yet there must be one because the US masters voted almost unanimously across their 8 regions to switch to it rather than stay with 8th or move to AoS.

Smellingsalts wrote:
Since they aren't the flgs target market, stores will end up supporting AOS because it will bring new blood, new players, and sales. KOW won't.

Maybe, but KoW seems to be a game that is currently growing, GW are currently shrinking so AoS has an uphill battle if it is going to actually bring in new customers in the long term, because right now even 40k can't.

My oh my the irony is downright palpable Complexity not equating to depth?! Concerns about opinions being misconstrued as facts? My the shoe is on the other foot now...


@Swastakowey - Thank you for the reply! I totally agree AoS needs new releases to keep it fresh and growing... Sigmarines and Khorne are definitely not a sustainable story. The newest book did begin to branch out into Sylvaneth (branch! HA! Sorry ) and Skaven, so I am curious what the future holds. My biggest concern from KoW is that the only growth it is receiving are ex-8th Ed players. KoW was not growing before, so I am unsure why it will suddenly continue to pickup steam once the exodus concludes. At least by me, many of the more serious tournament gamers played in their garages and the like rather than game stores... so their switching to KoW isn't going to change the amount of exposure KoW gets. I would really love to see Mantic embrace something like what Malifaux or Warmachine did with the kind-of regional champions who tout the game system and organize events/games/tutorials locally.

quiestdeus wrote:
My oh my the irony is downright palpable Complexity not equating to depth?! Concerns about opinions being misconstrued as facts? My the shoe is on the other foot now...


@Swastakowey - Thank you for the reply! I totally agree AoS needs new releases to keep it fresh and growing... Sigmarines and Khorne are definitely not a sustainable story. The newest book did begin to branch out into Sylvaneth (branch! HA! Sorry ) and Skaven, so I am curious what the future holds. My biggest concern from KoW is that the only growth it is receiving are ex-8th Ed players. KoW was not growing before, so I am unsure why it will suddenly continue to pickup steam once the exodus concludes. At least by me, many of the more serious tournament gamers played in their garages and the like rather than game stores... so their switching to KoW isn't going to change the amount of exposure KoW gets. I would really love to see Mantic embrace something like what Malifaux or Warmachine did with the kind-of regional champions who tout the game system and organize events/games/tutorials locally.

There are two types of simplicity. Simple does not equate to a lack of depth all the time. I don't know what games you play but after a few you can generally spot the games with a lack of depth (simple rules or not) and the ones with depth. Both can be fun to play... I'd question a persons experience if they argued AOS was a deep game personally, but I also don't see it as a bad thing.

In my area 2 ex Warhammer players (thats all there was...) joined but the other 5 of us did not enjoy Warhammer Fantasy. Again it all depends on the area. KOW was not growing before? I mean a lot of people seem to back the kickstarters etc... it's just grown even more now.

In NZ we are setting up regional apparently. Although it's still in the works. Winner of each region gets a prize (sponsored by Mantic and some other companies down here) and travel expenses paid to go to the next tournament. In my area alone we have over 20 people... my country is a small country. So it's happening, it just takes time. Remember the KOW rules have only just come out recently (the edition heaps of people were waiting for).

If you want to try the game, cut out cardboard (sucks I know) and have a game with someone else. No investment, the game is fast and after a few games the rules will be nailed into your brain. You will then find yourself having some intense games trying to outwit your opponent. Costs nothing, get to learn some new rules and if you like it then thats good. If not then you lost 2 hours of time.