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jouso wrote: For those of us still playing WHFB yes, it does
The problem is that this thread is KoW vs AoS. .
Since we're talking about fluff. AoS fluff is a continuation of WHFB. Nothing stops you from playing Old world or End times games with AoS rules. Hell there are even rules for characters that were dead centuries before proper AoS fluff started.
Fluff-wise, AoS incorporates the whole of WHFB storyline. Otherwise there'd be no point in having rules for Settra, Kurt Helborg, Gorbad Ironclaw, Azhag, and many other characters that died during or even centuries before the end times.
But GW did make very sure to explain to us all that AoS is not WHFB 9th edition. It is a whole new game.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
jouso wrote: For those of us still playing WHFB yes, it does
The problem is that this thread is KoW vs AoS. .
Since we're talking about fluff. AoS fluff is a continuation of WHFB. Nothing stops you from playing Old world or End times games with AoS rules. Hell there are even rules for characters that were dead centuries before proper AoS fluff started.
Fluff-wise, AoS incorporates the whole of WHFB storyline. Otherwise there'd be no point in having rules for Settra, Kurt Helborg, Gorbad Ironclaw, Azhag, and many other characters that died during or even centuries before the end times.
Sorry to break this to you, but no matter how much you want to stretch it, AoS is. not. WHFB. It's a completely different beast. They merely added rules for those characters/units in order to prevent the formation of an enraged mob that would otherwise come to tear down GWHQ.
Do not for a moment think that AoS is anything like WHFB.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/08 12:44:59
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
Yes AOS is a continuation of WHFB. The storyline continues right from where the end times left off. The gaming system is different from WHFB (it is more akin to the hybrid child of 40k and a small scale skirmish game), but the storyline, units, characters, etc, are the same. So in essence it is a lot like WHFB from that aspect.
On the other hand, KOW is also different from WHFB in it's own ways. It is more simplified and has no storyline depth. I know many WHFB players were very into the fluff, so I am surprised they would even look at KOW, which is just a simplified WHFB game (which is what people have called AOS).
It is based around a post-apocalyptic setting where the world's environment was ruined by magical disasters and wars, the current setting is based in the distant aftermath, where things are recovering from that.
There have been multiple expansions and books released, the basilean legacy book is particularly in-depth, with a page for each unit, detailed maps, historical timelines etc.
Later this year there will be a campaign book released with the results affecting the background.
It's early days, but they've done a decent job with the background.
I particularly like their depiction of orcs compared to WHFB, a very short-lived race (most die before 20) where their hatred of other civilized races stems from envy of their lifespan, quality of life and accomplishments, compared to a typical orc, who is lucky if he doesn't get killed by another orc before the age of 5 in a very brutal survival of the fittest culture. Has more in common with Tolkien, I guess.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/10/08 12:57:01
455_PWR wrote: Yes AOS is a continuation of WHFB. The storyline continues right from where the end times left off. The gaming system is different from WHFB (it is more akin to the hybrid child of 40k and a small scale skirmish game), but the storyline, units, characters, etc, are the same. So in essence it is a lot like WHFB from that aspect.
On the other hand, KOW is also different from WHFB in it's own ways. It is more simplified and has no storyline depth. I know many WHFB players were very into the fluff, so I am surprised they would even look at KOW, which is just a simplified WHFB game (which is what people have called AOS).
It can be a lot like WHFB (which I don't think it is, anyway) but it's not WHFB. That's the thing. The fluff is completely different. You can't say it's the same fluff wise just because it's got some (vague) traces of continuity.
If the characters and units are all the same, I will then be awaiting to see how they manage to put units like the Lothern Seaguard, the Teutogen Guard, Vespero's Vendetta, (etc etc etc) back in the fluff as they were, mind you. And where were those Sigmarines in WHFB again?
We need to start learning how to segregate fluff from mechanics, people...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/08 13:05:14
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
It also picks up right where WHFB left off... then skips over a few thousand years doesn't it? In which time anything that might have resembled the Old World is torn down and trampled into dust. As it stands in AoS the Fantasy world might as well be a myth, it and none of the attached fluff to it have any relevance in AoS other than being a quick origin story for some of the gods.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
jouso wrote: For those of us still playing WHFB yes, it does
The problem is that this thread is KoW vs AoS. .
Since we're talking about fluff. AoS fluff is a continuation of WHFB. Nothing stops you from playing Old world or End times games with AoS rules. Hell there are even rules for characters that were dead centuries before proper AoS fluff started.
Fluff-wise, AoS incorporates the whole of WHFB storyline. Otherwise there'd be no point in having rules for Settra, Kurt Helborg, Gorbad Ironclaw, Azhag, and many other characters that died during or even centuries before the end times.
Sorry to break this to you, but no matter how much you want to stretch it, AoS is. not. WHFB. It's a completely different beast. They merely added rules for those characters/units in order to prevent the formation of an enraged mob that would otherwise come to tear down GWHQ.
Do not for a moment think that AoS is anything like WHFB.
I don't play AoS at all. I mostly play WHFB with a bit of KoW on the side of course I know that.
However, fluff wise AoS allows anyone to play with Settra, Azhag, Greasus, Tyrion, everything that happened on the old world at some point or another.
I can play the battle of blackfire pass with AoS rules (not sure why I would like to, having WHFB rules available, but it's a possibility) so of course the old world is part of the fluff, AoS only has moved the storyline further in time.
Or do you think playing Horus Heresy is not 40K because it's far removed in time and most of the characters aren't there?
jonolikespie wrote: It also picks up right where WHFB left off... then skips over a few thousand years doesn't it? In which time anything that might have resembled the Old World is torn down and trampled into dust. As it stands in AoS the Fantasy world might as well be a myth, it and none of the attached fluff to it have any relevance in AoS other than being a quick origin story for some of the gods.
Not exactly.
An Orc is an Orc, whether he is in the Old World, Mortal Realms or the 41st Millennium. A Skaven is still a treacherous little rat. The Chaos Gods, very much part of Warhammer, are still present. Some of the characters are still bashing about - Nagash is the obvious one, but Alarielle has not gone anywhere (just a bit harder than she was before), Manfred has just popped up, and there will be others.
It is very much a continuation, and part of the draw is what happens next.
jonolikespie wrote: It also picks up right where WHFB left off... then skips over a few thousand years doesn't it? In which time anything that might have resembled the Old World is torn down and trampled into dust. As it stands in AoS the Fantasy world might as well be a myth, it and none of the attached fluff to it have any relevance in AoS other than being a quick origin story for some of the gods.
Not exactly.
An Orc is an Orc, whether he is in the Old World, Mortal Realms or the 41st Millennium.
No he's not. He's an orc or an orruk or an ork. :p
It's only a continuation if you considered WHFB to be about Nagash or the basic concept of Chaos Gods. Otherwise, it's got little or nothing to do with the original game. The last setting is literally reduced to a destroyed planetoid thing, it's high fantasy rather than a Grim World of Perilous Adventure, and it shares practically no themes or underlying concepts.
jouso wrote: For those of us still playing WHFB yes, it does
The problem is that this thread is KoW vs AoS. .
Since we're talking about fluff. AoS fluff is a continuation of WHFB. Nothing stops you from playing Old world or End times games with AoS rules. Hell there are even rules for characters that were dead centuries before proper AoS fluff started.
Fluff-wise, AoS incorporates the whole of WHFB storyline. Otherwise there'd be no point in having rules for Settra, Kurt Helborg, Gorbad Ironclaw, Azhag, and many other characters that died during or even centuries before the end times.
Sorry to break this to you, but no matter how much you want to stretch it, AoS is. not. WHFB. It's a completely different beast. They merely added rules for those characters/units in order to prevent the formation of an enraged mob that would otherwise come to tear down GWHQ.
Do not for a moment think that AoS is anything like WHFB.
I don't play AoS at all. I mostly play WHFB with a bit of KoW on the side of course I know that.
However, fluff wise AoS allows anyone to play with Settra, Azhag, Greasus, Tyrion, everything that happened on the old world at some point or another.
I can play the battle of blackfire pass with AoS rules (not sure why I would like to, having WHFB rules available, but it's a possibility) so of course the old world is part of the fluff, AoS only has moved the storyline further in time.
Or do you think playing Horus Heresy is not 40K because it's far removed in time and most of the characters aren't there?
Go on, then. Please provide quotes in the AoS fluff that provide justification for the survival of the units I said above. And do add Eltharion, Alith Anar, Korhil, etc etc etc.
I would also like to see how Khaine has survived the End Times since clearly he is still worshiped by the Witch Elves of the Dark el... errr, sorry, of the "Aelf Exiles". Find me Malus Darkblade, Shadowblade etc, etc, etc... The list goes on and on and on.... And we're only talking elves here.
Just because GW copped out and released warscrolls with AoS rules for the previous setting's units and characters doesn't make them part of the new setting. How hard is it to understand that? Heck, you said it yourself: you can play Blackfire pass - a Warhammer scenario - with AoS rules.
jonolikespie wrote: It also picks up right where WHFB left off... then skips over a few thousand years doesn't it? In which time anything that might have resembled the Old World is torn down and trampled into dust. As it stands in AoS the Fantasy world might as well be a myth, it and none of the attached fluff to it have any relevance in AoS other than being a quick origin story for some of the gods.
Not exactly.
An Orc is an Orc, whether he is in the Old World, Mortal Realms or the 41st Millennium.
No he's not. He's an orc or an orruk or an ork. :p
It's only a continuation if you considered WHFB to be about Nagash or the basic concept of Chaos Gods. Otherwise, it's got little or nothing to do with the original game. The last setting is literally reduced to a destroyed planetoid thing, it's high fantasy rather than a Grim World of Perilous Adventure, and it shares practically no themes or underlying concepts.
Thank you good Sir.
If you really,really wanna be anal about that bit, then an Orc(WHFB) is not an Orc(LOTR), or an Orc(DnD), or an Orc (WoW), or.... etc etc etc
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/08 15:14:20
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
It's only a continuation if you considered WHFB to be about Nagash or the basic concept of Chaos Gods. Otherwise, it's got little or nothing to do with the original game. The last setting is literally reduced to a destroyed planetoid thing, it's high fantasy rather than a Grim World of Perilous Adventure, and it shares practically no themes or underlying concepts.
I am sorry, I do not agree. I see Warhammer running right through AoS. The locations have changed, some faces have disappeared while others have popped up or returned (Sigmar himself), but I am finding an awful lot that is familiar.
Khorne Bloodbound have received new Blood Warriors and their Reavers, for example, but they would have both slotted right into a Khorne-themed Chaos Warriors force in WHFB. Nurgle forces have had Blightkings pushed to the fore, but otherwise all the old forces are fitting right in.
Things have moved on, I grant you, but it is still Warhammer. No one is going to be mistaking it for Warmachine
It's only a continuation if you considered WHFB to be about Nagash or the basic concept of Chaos Gods. Otherwise, it's got little or nothing to do with the original game. The last setting is literally reduced to a destroyed planetoid thing, it's high fantasy rather than a Grim World of Perilous Adventure, and it shares practically no themes or underlying concepts.
I am sorry, I do not agree. I see Warhammer running right through AoS. The locations have changed, some faces have disappeared while others have popped up or returned (Sigmar himself), but I am finding an awful lot that is familiar.
Khorne Bloodbound have received new Blood Warriors and their Reavers, for example, but they would have both slotted right into a Khorne-themed Chaos Warriors force in WHFB. Nurgle forces have had Blightkings pushed to the fore, but otherwise all the old forces are fitting right in.
Things have moved on, I grant you, but it is still Warhammer. No one is going to be mistaking it for Warmachine
Really?
Spoiler:
Warhammer Fantasy
Age of Sigmar
Warmachine
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/10/08 15:29:40
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
It's only a continuation if you considered WHFB to be about Nagash or the basic concept of Chaos Gods. Otherwise, it's got little or nothing to do with the original game. The last setting is literally reduced to a destroyed planetoid thing, it's high fantasy rather than a Grim World of Perilous Adventure, and it shares practically no themes or underlying concepts.
I am sorry, I do not agree. I see Warhammer running right through AoS. The locations have changed, some faces have disappeared while others have popped up or returned (Sigmar himself), but I am finding an awful lot that is familiar.
Khorne Bloodbound have received new Blood Warriors and their Reavers, for example, but they would have both slotted right into a Khorne-themed Chaos Warriors force in WHFB. Nurgle forces have had Blightkings pushed to the fore, but otherwise all the old forces are fitting right in.
Things have moved on, I grant you, but it is still Warhammer. No one is going to be mistaking it for Warmachine
Nobody's going to be mistaking it for WHFB, either.
The locations have done more than change - they blew them all up, then made new locations, then blew THEM up without really telling us anything about them. So that's one part of the setting out.
Surviving characters have gone through personality shifts. Sigmar - the big one - has gone from a hands-off Germanic barbarian deity that may or may not actually exist to a more petulant and less xenophobic version of the God-Emperor of Mankind, for example. I can't see Original Flavor Sigmar abandoning the Empire to go beat the hell out of Bretonnia for backstabbing them while Chaos stomps on everyone else. I can't see Original Flavor Sigmar physically manifesting at all, actually, because that wasn't something that happened in WHFB.
And if we're going into what models can fit in where, which seems an odd metric for judging a game's background and lore and how well it meshes up with another one - well, a lot of them would fit right into someone's Kings of War force, but that doesn't mean that the Mortal Realms and Mantica are the same place.
If you like AoS and the background, good! I'm glad you're enjoying it. But it's not really a continuation...a more honest term would be 'reboot', despite any official timeline handwaving.
I understand people are upset about the change in direction/style, but it still is Warhammer to me. Everything about it is Warhammer to me. Reminds me of going from Halo 1 to Halo 2 or something and people saying it's not Halo anymore. It's Halo, it changed some and you might not like it and that's fine, but it's Halo.
Playing AoS feels just like playing Warhammer. Painting AoS feels just like painting Warhammer. Reading about AoS feels just like reading about Warhammer. It's Warhammer. You can dislike the change, but I don't know what points you're trying to win saying it's not how you define Warhammer.
Internet points. The most valuable currency of all - one Internet point is, like, thirty chunks of ur-gold at current exchange rates.
It's hardly the difference between Halo and Halo 2. Halo 2 is a direct continuation of a storyline, with the same basic mechanics, recognizable and consistent characters, no off-screen millenia-long time skip, and they didn't suddenly decide to call SPARTANS "Techmod Shockwarriors" so they could copyright them.
I have to disagree on basically everything you said - but if you like it, great! I don't, have no problem pointing out why, and will probably keep doing so when it's relevant.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/08 16:57:32
Spinner wrote: Internet points. The most valuable currency of all - one Internet point is, like, thirty chunks of ur-gold at current time exchange rates.
It's hardly the difference between Halo and Halo 2. Halo 2 is a direct continuation of a storyline, with the same basic mechanics, recognizable and consistent characters, no off-screen millenia-long time skip, and they didn't suddenly decide to call SPARTANS "Techmod Shockwarriors" so they could copyright them.
I have to disagree on basically everything you said - but if you like it, great! I don't, have no problem pointing out why, and will probably keep doing so when it's relevant.
Maybe more like Halo and Reach. Still Halo, but some people don't think it's "real Halo." Not to get too into the weeds but you could come up with similar examples between Halo 1/2. There were massive changes to the storyline and gameplay. Hardcore Halo people would definitely not agree 1 and 2 have the same basic mechanics. Similar, but like with AoS, it was a big style change.
On the other hand, KOW is also different from WHFB in it's own ways. It is more simplified and has no storyline depth. I know many WHFB players were very into the fluff, so I am surprised they would even look at KOW, which is just a simplified WHFB game (which is what people have called AOS).
How on earth is KoW "just simplified WHFB"?
Have you seen it in action on the table top? Skimming the rules and seeing ranked troops in the pictures and fantasy words used doesn't mean you know how it plays
Spinner wrote: Internet points. The most valuable currency of all - one Internet point is, like, thirty chunks of ur-gold at current time exchange rates.
It's hardly the difference between Halo and Halo 2. Halo 2 is a direct continuation of a storyline, with the same basic mechanics, recognizable and consistent characters, no off-screen millenia-long time skip, and they didn't suddenly decide to call SPARTANS "Techmod Shockwarriors" so they could copyright them.
I have to disagree on basically everything you said - but if you like it, great! I don't, have no problem pointing out why, and will probably keep doing so when it's relevant.
Maybe more like Halo and Reach. Still Halo, but some people don't think it's "real Halo." Not to get too into the weeds but you could come up with similar examples between Halo 1/2. There were massive changes to the storyline and gameplay. Hardcore Halo people would definitely not agree 1 and 2 have the same basic mechanics. Similar, but like with AoS, it was a big style change.
Same enemies, some different weapons and one or two additional vehicles with a whole lot of improved textures. It's more like the difference between the 4e Marine Codex and the 6e one.
A more apt comparison would be the difference between CE and 4. Radically different designs, nearly none of the old characters, whole new story and the places you were before got blownded up.
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
Spinner wrote: Internet points. The most valuable currency of all - one Internet point is, like, thirty chunks of ur-gold at current time exchange rates.
It's hardly the difference between Halo and Halo 2. Halo 2 is a direct continuation of a storyline, with the same basic mechanics, recognizable and consistent characters, no off-screen millenia-long time skip, and they didn't suddenly decide to call SPARTANS "Techmod Shockwarriors" so they could copyright them.
I have to disagree on basically everything you said - but if you like it, great! I don't, have no problem pointing out why, and will probably keep doing so when it's relevant.
Maybe more like Halo and Reach. Still Halo, but some people don't think it's "real Halo." Not to get too into the weeds but you could come up with similar examples between Halo 1/2. There were massive changes to the storyline and gameplay. Hardcore Halo people would definitely not agree 1 and 2 have the same basic mechanics. Similar, but like with AoS, it was a big style change.
Same enemies, some different weapons and one or two additional vehicles with a whole lot of improved textures. It's more like the difference between the 4e Marine Codex and the 6e one.
A more apt comparison would be the difference between CE and 4. Radically different designs, nearly none of the old characters, whole new story and the places you were before got blownded up.
Yes, not to put on my nerd hat here but there is a lot more that changed in basic gameplay mechanics between 1/2 than that. Every Halo has come with rage quits and uproar because of seemingly minor (to casual players) things. I was part of the competitive community. The whole way of playing Halo changes between 1/2. That's as nerdy on this as I'm going to go.
Smaller ammo capacities, quicker recharging shields, regenerating health, no fall damage, UNSC vehicle damage, more realistic damage overall, skulls, online multiplayer, improved physics (vehicles dont instasplat you with a light tap anymore), improved vehicle handling and dual wielding introducing whole new combos such as the plasma pistol BR/pistol combo.
You are talking to another Halo nerd here. But none of these are huge differences.
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
TheCustomLime wrote: Smaller ammo capacities, quicker recharging shields, regenerating health, no fall damage, UNSC vehicle damage, more realistic damage overall, skulls, online multiplayer, improved physics (vehicles dont instasplat you with a light tap anymore), improved vehicle handling and dual wielding introducing whole new combos such as the plasma pistol BR/pistol combo.
You are talking to another Halo nerd here. But none of these are huge differences.
We are off on a tangent... The simple gameplay mechanics of how playing feels changed a lot. Skilled players in 1 were not necessarily as good in 2 in all cases, and vice versa. The game was played differently on a competitive level. To a competitive player, 1 and 2 are completely different games, not simply an iteration. To get back on topic, I suppose to my mind, I saw 7th/8th in Warhammer as iterations, like patches on the same game basically, whereas AoS is a different game, as people are saying. However, Halo 1 and Halo 2 are both Halo, and AoS and WFB are both Warhammer.
For the people extremely serious about the gaming side of Warhammer, I understand why they would not call AoS "Warhammer," in the same way a super serious Halo 1 player would have not called 2 "Halo" (at the time it came out, by now I'm sure he would).
Bleh, this side topic/analogy is getting exhausting.
In AoS fluff are Dark Elves led by their bitter King in raids across the ocean and attempt to invade the High Elf homeland?
Do the High Elves have their own island in the middle of the ocean where they are containing the winds of magic?
Is there an empire of humans holding itself together despite corruption and cowardice through the sheer determination and courage of a few great leaders?
Is there a knightly nation of nobles who refuse to adopt modern military tactics because heavy cav charges are cool?
Is Kislev a thing? Tilea?
So very little of the Old World remains, it doesn't matter that the fluff is technically continuing on from the Old World, we are not playing there and it is different.
As for the argument that you can play the battle for Skull pass in AoS, you can do so with KoW rules too
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
455_PWR wrote: Yes AOS is a continuation of WHFB. The storyline continues right from where the end times left off. The gaming system is different from WHFB (it is more akin to the hybrid child of 40k and a small scale skirmish game), but the storyline, units, characters, etc, are the same. So in essence it is a lot like WHFB from that aspect.
On the other hand, KOW is also different from WHFB in it's own ways. It is more simplified and has no storyline depth. I know many WHFB players were very into the fluff, so I am surprised they would even look at KOW, which is just a simplified WHFB game (which is what people have called AOS).
The Book of Mormon claims to be a continuation of the New Testament, but that doesn't mean its automatically accepted.
"We need to start learning how to segregate fluff from mechanics, people..."
Dude if you read my post that you responded to, you will see I said the fluff is a continuation from whfb but I also said the games are fundamentally different in gameplay. Maybe read before posting?
As for the fluff argument being different... so Return of the Jedi isn't as Star Wars as A New Hope? Or the new one coming out isn't Star Wars? Stories need to change as they progress to stay relevent. Many people don't like change but change can be good, especially for a dying game.
You seem to be fundamentally missing the difference between a couple of years timeskip continuing directly off the same plot points with the same characters and a couple of thousand years timeskips with a new main character (Sigmar was not an active player in WHFB) and a few other characters still along for the ride (but overall only a fraction of the ones that existed).
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
455_PWR wrote: "We need to start learning how to segregate fluff from mechanics, people..."
Dude if you read my post that you responded to, you will see I said the fluff is a continuation from whfb but I also said the games are fundamentally different in gameplay. Maybe read before posting?
As for the fluff argument being different... so Return of the Jedi isn't as Star Wars as A New Hope? Or the new one coming out isn't Star Wars? Stories need to change as they progress to stay relevent. Many people don't like change but change can be good, especially for a dying game.
Well plenty of people thought the prequles weren't "star wars" enough for them. The creator of something may have control over the "official" view of it, but once its out there being enjoyed it takes on an independent life of its own. Just ask any fan of the New Jedi Order or KOTOR what they think of Disney wiping the extended universe off the map.
In my own head, the end times never happened and never will happen. My WFB universe is quite happy the way it is. And its mine. Nothing GW can ever do can touch it, because they pissed me off enough that I disconnected it from them. Its not official (obviously), but then I don't really care too much. When the creator offends too many of the consumers, weird things happen. For me, AoS is nothing to do with WFB. It doesn't feel the same at all. It copied some names and pretends to be a continuation, but it is its own creature and (in my opinion) should be respected or derided on its own merits.
i don't see the big deal...
it is still the Warhammer universe, it just isn't The Old World anymore...
if you don't like the Realms, it is not as if Mantica is a real replacement for The Old World, so the point of this whole argument is moot...
i really don't understand why people would be bitter about having Warscrolls for (fictionally) dead characters...
either the fluff matters so much to you that you woudn't use dead characters anyway, or you are such a gamer that the rules are all that matter, in which case all of the old stuff (characters that don't even exist in Mantica) is still viable...
as a reader, my old Warhammer books are still just as good as they were a year ago...
the new stuff is just that, new and interesting...
i have 30 years worth of books i can read if i want The Old World, and now i have fiction set in the Realms on top of that...
it is not like i can't read fiction because some other fiction came along...
at the end of the day, it is all just a bunch of made up stuff, and not worth getting upset over...
Because AoS doesn't get to piggy back off the success of WHFB's fluff after having just destroyed it all.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
jonolikespie wrote: Because AoS doesn't get to piggy back off the success of WHFB's fluff after having just destroyed it all.
if you want to be bitter about it, that's your choice...
i would rather enjoy it...
like i said, i'm not married to fiction...
WHFB fluff has only been destroyed if you let it be...
i know my books didn't spontaneously combust on the 11th of July...
it's all just a lot of make believe, so why get so upset about it???
i enjoyed the Star Wars prequels, even though i grew up with the original trilogy...
i enjoyed Peter Jackson's LotR and Hobbit, even though they weren't the same as the books...
as long as something is visually amazing, like films or models, i am cool with it...
for me, AoS stands on it's own as a continuation of the Warhammer universe...
The Empire 
1500 pts
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