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Does end times explain somewhere if the Dark Elves exist within the magical realms of Age of Sigmar?

@jono: they are the ones holding Slaanesh captive...
very much still a part of the story...
the DE may be listed as order, because they are opposed to Chaos, but the DE are the Exiles, jabbing Slaanesh's bloated body with sharp sticks...

cheers
jah

 jonolikespie wrote:
I have no idea if my dark elves exist anymore, all I know is that they are being sold as a force of order, and that worries me.

Embittered and cruel, the aelf Exiles roam the Mortal Realms bringing death to every foe they meet. These swift and vicious warriors are ostensibly allies of Sigmar. In truth, they serve only the shadowy Malerion, and themselves. Emerging from the darkened places of the realms, the Exile warbands engage in lightning raids that leave ravaged corpses piled high in their wake. Then they vanish as quickly as they came, like smoke melting away on the breeze.

Aelf Exiles(Dark Elves) exist for sure. However, their lore not as rich as The Old World. Maybe you can create your own background like realm drifting Black Ark Raider, the realms are so huge, still a lot of city-state and area untouched by Chaos.

If you want official word... just wait then.

Meowstalker wrote:
If you want official word... just wait then.

That's what I keep getting told by GW employees if I ask about them.

That is a TERRIBLE way to do business.



Seriously, the other stuff you just said is literally three or four sentences more than I have gotten out of any official GW representative's mouth. I might have known that myself if I bought the books, but when people just tell me to wait and see what else gets released i have 0 incentive to buy anything

 Spinner wrote:

RoperPG wrote:
AoS *is* a continuation of the WFB background, because that's what GW have said it is, and they kinda own it...
Whether you like it or not is down to subjective, not objective points.
Whether you prefer AoS fluff to WFB fluff to KoW fluff is similarly inarguable.
Whether the fluff has any bearing on whether you wish to play whatever game is also your choice.
Might be an idea to take the fluff v fluff discussion into a separate thread.

I'm an Alien fan. We're used to disowning official continuity.

You're right, though - there's probably a better place for this.

Thanks for the explanation on Goldenmane, guys. Interesting - I suppose there's a seed of a decent plot in there. Perhaps the Stormcast shall know fear if they realize the only way to kill them is also basically the worst fate they can suffer.

They actually fear death intensely because they are starting to realize that they lose themselves more and more each time they die. That's pretty terrifying and Sigmar didn't tell them about it.

I dunno, I've had redshirts try to tell me that that is worse than death and all but it feels more like bad writing to me.

Not.. you know... bad bad but saturday morning cartoon kinda bad. 'Immature' bad I suppose.

 jonolikespie wrote:
I dunno, I've had redshirts try to tell me that that is worse than death and all but it feels more like bad writing to me.

Not.. you know... bad bad but saturday morning cartoon kinda bad. 'Immature' bad I suppose.

To me it screams "I am 14 and this is so deep!" whenever I hear that bit of fluff.

What does it mean? Why is it even a problem? If I was sigmar I would reduce these guys minds into drone like beings who merely did as I asked.

Such dumb writing.

 jonolikespie wrote:
I dunno, I've had redshirts try to tell me that that is worse than death and all but it feels more like bad writing to me.

Not.. you know... bad bad but saturday morning cartoon kinda bad. 'Immature' bad I suppose.

You should read the novel/book by yourself, they explain why reforging is worse than death, not just losing memory and personality; how different is stormcast before and after reforge; And also what is the ultimate goal of Chaos in Mortal Realms... There are so much to read for.

Such dumb writing.

You read any AOS book?

Just my two cents but they really need the Relictors to guide them back to Sigmar. He is essentially stealing the souls meant for Nagash. Nagash is all to aware of this and has hinted that he will get what's owed to him.

I believe they need the Relictors for defense against daemons as well, otherwise their souls are helpless and will be torn apart when they die.

Lastly, mindless drones are not only a inefficient fighting force compared to highly skilled and enraged warriors but I don't think Sigmar has the power to cause that anyway. It's a side effect of the reforging process. Also, do you want empty shells facing hordes of creatures known for possessing weak minds and mortal husks?

Meowstalker wrote:

Such dumb writing.

You read any AOS book?

You know when you read the blurbs on the back of books and DvDs? And they say things like "Sigmar learns that weapons are for war" or "Sigmarine fears losing a little bit of himself when he dies for 18th time" and you think to yourself... "hmmm, not really what I want to waste my time on... this?"

So no I have not wasted time on these books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Baron Klatz wrote:
Just my two cents but they really need the Relictors to guide them back to Sigmar. He is essentially stealing the souls meant for Nagash. Nagash is all to aware of this and has hinted that he will get what's owed to him.

I believe they need the Relictors for defense against daemons as well, otherwise their souls are helpless and will be torn apart when they die.

Lastly, mindless drones are not only a inefficient fighting force compared to highly skilled and enraged warriors but I don't think Sigmar has the power to cause that anyway. It's a side effect of the reforging process. Also, do you want empty shells facing hordes of creatures known for possessing weak minds and mortal husks?

Yes, I would kill and reforge over and over again until they are so devoid of personality and individuality that they do anything I ask without care. I would have warriors that would fight until they die from whatever cause. They dont need personality to die for me. Nor would they care about dying since they have nothing to lose by dying.

 Swastakowey wrote:

Meowstalker wrote:

Such dumb writing.

You read any AOS book?

You know when you read the blurbs on the back of books and DvDs? And they say things like "Sigmar learns that weapons are for war" or "Sigmarine fears losing a little bit of himself when he dies for 18th time" and you think to yourself... "hmmm, not really what I want to waste my time on... this?"

So no I have not wasted time on these books.

You admit you read nothing and claim the writing dumb, it is all right.

Why would he want mindless warriors when he specifically chose them based on their personal traits?

Meowstalker wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

Meowstalker wrote:

Such dumb writing.

You read any AOS book?

You know when you read the blurbs on the back of books and DvDs? And they say things like "Sigmar learns that weapons are for war" or "Sigmarine fears losing a little bit of himself when he dies for 18th time" and you think to yourself... "hmmm, not really what I want to waste my time on... this?"

So no I have not wasted time on these books.

You admit you read nothing and claim the writing dumb, it is all right.

Alright, dumb basis and ideas FOR writing, is that better?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mymearan wrote:
Why would he want mindless warriors when he specifically chose them based on their personal traits?

Because in wars you dont need personal traits, just men who can work as one without care or problems and who wont break formation. These guys have nothignt o lose, nothing to gain etc. They will hold their ranks and ultimately win. If they die then you simply "reforge them". Win win scenario.

 Swastakowey wrote:

Meowstalker wrote:

Such dumb writing.

You read any AOS book?

You know when you read the blurbs on the back of books and DvDs? And they say things like "Sigmar learns that weapons are for war" or "Sigmarine fears losing a little bit of himself when he dies for 18th time" and you think to yourself... "hmmm, not really what I want to waste my time on... this?"

So no I have not wasted time on these books.

Yeah I have to agree here. It may well be written better, but from all I have heard I am not going to spend time or money seeing for myself.

It just doesn't seem worth it.

 Mymearan wrote:
Why would he want mindless warriors when he specifically chose them based on their personal traits?

Maybe for the same reason he turned a diverse cast of heroic warriors from across eight worlds, spanning everything from humans to orcs, and turned them all into space marine replicas?

 Swastakowey wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Baron Klatz wrote:
Just my two cents but they really need the Relictors to guide them back to Sigmar. He is essentially stealing the souls meant for Nagash. Nagash is all to aware of this and has hinted that he will get what's owed to him.

I believe they need the Relictors for defense against daemons as well, otherwise their souls are helpless and will be torn apart when they die.

Lastly, mindless drones are not only a inefficient fighting force compared to highly skilled and enraged warriors but I don't think Sigmar has the power to cause that anyway. It's a side effect of the reforging process. Also, do you want empty shells facing hordes of creatures known for possessing weak minds and mortal husks?

Yes, I would kill and reforge over and over again until they are so devoid of personality and individuality that they do anything I ask without care. I would have warriors that would fight until they die from whatever cause. They dont need personality to die for me. Nor would they care about dying since they have nothing to lose by dying.

This is a trope that has been used everywhere, from Superman and Batman and all sorts of comic books, to anime, and even mythology.

The protagonist must choose between winning the easy way and losing a part of himself (Batman or Superman could, for instance, just kill their arch-nemeses and be done with it), or do it the hard way, retaining yourself while also being victorious (sending their enemies to Arkham or space or whatever)

Sigmar represents the Good Guy, and Good Guys don't do the kind of thing like steal individuality, etc. Good Guys don't use mindless drones.

Imagine Sigmar standing over the forge, about to strip the last bit of thought and personality from a Sigmarine. Suddenly, Robin bursts into the room, "No! Sigmar! Don't do this! If you take away all of that warrior's humanity, you're no better than Lex Luthor!". Sigmar pauses (in a comic book, there would be about 4 panels of narrator box describing Sigmar's internal conflict) before resolving himself to win the "right" way - with warriors, not drones.

I can't remember the specific trope "name", but it's a variation of this one: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IfYouKillHimYouWillBeJustLikeHim and this one http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeWhoFightsMonsters

Swastakowey wrote:

Meowstalker wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

Meowstalker wrote:

Such dumb writing.

You read any AOS book?

You know when you read the blurbs on the back of books and DvDs? And they say things like "Sigmar learns that weapons are for war" or "Sigmarine fears losing a little bit of himself when he dies for 18th time" and you think to yourself... "hmmm, not really what I want to waste my time on... this?"

So no I have not wasted time on these books.

You admit you read nothing and claim the writing dumb, it is all right.

Alright, dumb basis and ideas FOR writing, is that better?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mymearan wrote:
Why would he want mindless warriors when he specifically chose them based on their personal traits?

Because in wars you dont need personal traits, just men who can work as one without care or problems and who wont break formation. These guys have nothignt o lose, nothing to gain etc. They will hold their ranks and ultimately win. If they die then you simply "reforge them". Win win scenario.

Somehow I don't think Sigmar would think that the end justified the means in that scenario. This is a pretty silly discussion anyway since we have no idea if he could make them mindless robots even if he wanted to (which we can assume he doesn't).

Spinner wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:
Why would he want mindless warriors when he specifically chose them based on their personal traits?

Maybe for the same reason he turned a diverse cast of heroic warriors from across eight worlds, spanning everything from humans to orcs, and turned them all into space marine replicas?

What? This doesn't make any sense, sorry.

I wonder if Sigmar has gotten a C&D order from the IoM yet.

 Mymearan wrote:

Swastakowey wrote:

Meowstalker wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

Meowstalker wrote:

Such dumb writing.

You read any AOS book?

You know when you read the blurbs on the back of books and DvDs? And they say things like "Sigmar learns that weapons are for war" or "Sigmarine fears losing a little bit of himself when he dies for 18th time" and you think to yourself... "hmmm, not really what I want to waste my time on... this?"

So no I have not wasted time on these books.

You admit you read nothing and claim the writing dumb, it is all right.

Alright, dumb basis and ideas FOR writing, is that better?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mymearan wrote:
Why would he want mindless warriors when he specifically chose them based on their personal traits?

Because in wars you dont need personal traits, just men who can work as one without care or problems and who wont break formation. These guys have nothignt o lose, nothing to gain etc. They will hold their ranks and ultimately win. If they die then you simply "reforge them". Win win scenario.

Somehow I don't think Sigmar would think that the end justified the means in that scenario. This is a pretty silly discussion anyway since we have no idea if he could make them mindless robots even if he wanted to (which we can assume he doesn't).

Spinner wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:
Why would he want mindless warriors when he specifically chose them based on their personal traits?

Maybe for the same reason he turned a diverse cast of heroic warriors from across eight worlds, spanning everything from humans to orcs, and turned them all into space marine replicas?

What? This doesn't make any sense, sorry.

No worries, it was kind of half-clear. And, now that I look back at it, somewhat typo'd.

He already got rid of a bunch of their personal traits. Woman, orc, dwarf, whatever...they all look like fantasy space marines. Don't they have their former memories suppressed anyway as part of the 're-forging'? I thought a plot point in one of the novels involved the main character getting them back when he was sent against the warlord that would have killed him. Clearly, Sigmar does subscribe to the school of thought that would prefer lockstep super-drones to a rag-tag band of heroes.

...which seems a misstep both from a modelling perspective and an in-universe one. Think of the possibilities if their original forms were simply physically idealized. No greenskin tribe is going to follow some 'umie git in golden armor, but an orc the size of an ogre? I mean, once he explains who they'll be working with, he might have to kill one or two or thirty, but the rest will fall in line because he's obviously da best. Or imagine a dwarf with a beard below his knees, wearing the heaviest armor possible like it was nothing and born aloft on mechanical wings, discovering an isolated enclave and inspiring them as a divine messenger. He'd be greeted with much less suspicion than a Sigmarine, I'd think.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Age of Sigmar Sigmar isn't all that bright.

Rihgu wrote:
This is a trope that has been used everywhere, from Superman and Batman and all sorts of comic books, to anime, and even mythology.

The protagonist must choose between winning the easy way and losing a part of himself (Batman or Superman could, for instance, just kill their arch-nemeses and be done with it), or do it the hard way, retaining yourself while also being victorious (sending their enemies to Arkham or space or whatever)

Sigmar represents the Good Guy, and Good Guys don't do the kind of thing like steal individuality, etc. Good Guys don't use mindless drones.

Imagine Sigmar standing over the forge, about to strip the last bit of thought and personality from a Sigmarine. Suddenly, Robin bursts into the room, "No! Sigmar! Don't do this! If you take away all of that warrior's humanity, you're no better than Lex Luthor!". Sigmar pauses (in a comic book, there would be about 4 panels of narrator box describing Sigmar's internal conflict) before resolving himself to win the "right" way - with warriors, not drones.

I can't remember the specific trope "name", but it's a variation of this one: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IfYouKillHimYouWillBeJustLikeHim and this one http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeWhoFightsMonsters

That's a fair explanation but if true then the setting has clearly lost a lot of the darkness and shady morality that made WHFB different from your more typical fantasy world.

I would never expect a GW character, across any of their settings, to choose the morally right path over victory. That's kinda what defines their settings.


I also have to agree that given how samey the sigmarines already seem going the extra step further seems like no big deal and an army of emotionless superhumans is probably the ideal fighting force.

Well, they're not just losing their emotions. It seems they're losing parts of their humanity as well.(things like that and their armor make me think GW are giving nods to Dark Souls.)

As I said before, with Nagash being cheated of his due and the hordes of chaos swarming the realms, a army of mindless and soulless warriors would be easy targets.

I don't really understand why this is a argument. Sigmar is the god of humanity and would never kill the humanity of his subjects voluntarily. Complaining about his Stormcast being covered in uniform armor is a bit silly too.

GW gives us lots of options for your Stormcast to be almost anything you want them to be. We'll probably see less armored Stormcasts that show off their former life and heritage in the future but right now we can make our own. So why make it such a big deal?

....man, we're pretty much in another country as far as being on topic is concerned.

I highly doubt we will ever see a Stormcast outside of their armour. They seem very deliberately designed to me to mimic humanity, not to be a part of it. Sculpted faces on the helmets makes them look human, but at the same time you can see they are sculpted, those are not the sigmarines' faces, they are a mimicry or a parody.

Baron Klatz wrote:
Well, they're not just losing their emotions. It seems they're losing parts of their humanity as well.(things like that and their armor make me think GW are giving nods to Dark Souls.)

Wellp!! I had never even considered Sigmarines until you made this association... And now I NEED Sigmarines...

I'll make you pay for this, somehow. I'm sure I'll make you pay...

 jonolikespie wrote:
I highly doubt we will ever see a Stormcast outside of their armour. They seem very deliberately designed to me to mimic humanity, not to be a part of it. Sculpted faces on the helmets makes them look human, but at the same time you can see they are sculpted, those are not the sigmarines' faces, they are a mimicry or a parody.

That's a good point.

Though it does make sense we'll only see them covered in armor (a good idea for warriors going into battle) I'm hoping we'll see some minor personality like this.

http://i.imgur.com/FHlPV4m.jpg

Rihgu wrote:

Baron Klatz wrote:
Well, they're not just losing their emotions. It seems they're losing parts of their humanity as well.(things like that and their armor make me think GW are giving nods to Dark Souls.)

Wellp!! I had never even considered Sigmarines until you made this association... And now I NEED Sigmarines...

I'll make you pay for this, somehow. I'm sure I'll make you pay...

Haha, sorry about that.

Sigmar does have a Lord Gwyn vibe going on though and you might spot some Ornstein and Smough similarities in his army...

Mix some snakemen in their (future Seraphon?) and you can have a Anor Londo army going.

If we look at Space Marines GW give you the option for helmet less with every squad leader and every officer. Most of the important characters are helmet less by default and would need to be converted to add a helmet.

We have seen unit leaders, characters, officers and even the leader of the sigmarines all only with the option for helmets though haven't we?

Where could GW add the helmet less option now?

 jonolikespie wrote:

That's a fair explanation but if true then the setting has clearly lost a lot of the darkness and shady morality that made WHFB different from your more typical fantasy world.

Bloodreavers are made of people who were conquered by Khorne and forced to eat their friends/family or be killed along with them, cannibals who if they don't show enough joy in being cannibals are put on the dinner table next. Fairly dark. I think people have jumped to a lot of conclusions, like with thinking Slaanesh got written out because it was too risqué for GW, when there's clearly a story arc between elves and Slaanesh coming up.

See, that just feels like a 12 year old's attempt at being dark to go along with the 12 year old's attempt at being deep with the sigmarines death thing.

GW just feel like they are at a point were they don't know if they are parodying themselves anymore. There was some good old goofy stuff in the fluff, and some stuff taken super seriously, and I don't think the current writers know what of the old stuff was serious and what was lighthearted tongue in cheek.

 jonolikespie wrote:
See, that just feels like a 12 year old's attempt at being dark to go along with the 12 year old's attempt at being deep with the sigmarines death thing.

GW just feel like they are at a point were they don't know if they are parodying themselves anymore. There was some good old goofy stuff in the fluff, and some stuff taken super seriously, and I don't think the current writers know what of the old stuff was serious and what was lighthearted tongue in cheek.

You should read the lore yourself, not reading the pieces on forum and twisting into your flavor.

Stormcast lose part of their soul every time after reforge, change in personality, memory... etc, are nothing but side effect. The truth is Stormcast ain't Eternal, they will die eventually(or instantly). However, you focus on the side effect of reforge but not the true matter, Stormcast are nothing but expendable wardog. I know that sound like Space Marine, but Stormcast live under the illusion of Eternal.

The fluff of Old World is so rich and fun to read, in different style.

Where could GW add the helmet less option now?

Why, the dlc of tabletop gaming of course! Upgrade sprues.

Meowstalker wrote:You should read the lore yourself, not reading the pieces on forum and twisting into your flavor.

Stormcast lose part of their soul every time after reforge, change in personality, memory... etc, are nothing but side effect. The truth is Stormcast ain't Eternal, they will die eventually(or instantly). However, you focus on the side effect of reforge but not the true matter, Stormcast are nothing but expendable wardog. I know that sound like Space Marine, but Stormcast live under the illusion of Eternal.

The fluff of Old World is so rich and fun to read, in different style.

See:

jonolikespie wrote:
Yeah I have to agree here. It may well be written better, but from all I have heard I am not going to spend time or money seeing for myself.

It just doesn't seem worth it.

It just don't excite me or interest me enough to spend $20 to find out if it is good. If Abbnett wrote one I'd probably give it a try but AoS just is doing nothing to entice me right now.