Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

die toten hosen wrote:
Sky is always falling with you people isnt it

and what army do you play die toten hosen? because it seems your the best Ork player in the world because you clearly know the most about the Ork army and how it is as good or better then recent codex's.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
Sky is always falling with you people isnt it

and what army do you play die toten hosen? because it seems your the best Ork player in the world because you clearly know the most about the Ork army and how it is as good or better then recent codex's.

Probably another Marine player deigning to look upon us non Space Marine peasants.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
Sky is always falling with you people isnt it

and what army do you play die toten hosen? because it seems your the best Ork player in the world because you clearly know the most about the Ork army and how it is as good or better then recent codex's.

Probably another Marine player deigning to look upon us non Space Marine peasants.

lol exalted.

So if Green Tide doesn't count because it's not fun, what lists of the same competitive tier or high ARE fun?

Pentyrant? Just moving 5 models around and blasting away a couple units of a turn?

Wraith Knight spam? Imperial Knight spam? Lictor Shame? Centstar?

Which of those lists are fun to play with/against?

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Im rather curious how they plan to make orks the same level of "OP Holy Feth this is ridiculous" as say Necrons/Eldar or Space Marines. I would really like to see the resurgence of Walker armies that are.....playable. I would really like to see our best formation not be a 101-301 man blob of boyz that makes playing EXTREMELY time intense. Mostly though I would really like to see our mobility come back into play and our vehicles becoming more of a threat then just..."hit it with a Lascannon and watch it explode".

They'll probably change design paradigm yet again by the time a new Ork codex releases, so I wouldn't hold any breath.

Much like people in 2014 were looking at the releases and expecting everything eventually to get toned down, and now in 2015 everyone is expecting everything to get toned up, 2016 will probably see-saw back again.

This is my top complaint about 40k, frankly. It amazes me how GW changes course mid-cycle.

On the other hand, if I give GW the benefit of the doubt... 6e really had some issues, which 7e largely fixed. The 7e codex tone-down, an the surface, was a good idea, but really didn't motivate anyone to buy anything. It also didn't really fix the core issue of, "how do I play a list that mirrors fluff that doesn't suck?"

2015 actually fixes both of those. There are formations and superformations post 2015 are really interesting to play, they sell a ton of models for GW (what existing players have all the models to play a Company or Decurion or Warhost?), and are relatively balanced against each other. Even 1st, 10th company are cool. They are good for both scenario and random point-vs-point games.

So, really, my hope is just that GW follows through and finishes off the cycle, producing books for each faction including the ones already done in 2014 that don't have core-auxiliary-command structures that allow slotting in useful, fluffy formations.

 Talys wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Im rather curious how they plan to make orks the same level of "OP Holy Feth this is ridiculous" as say Necrons/Eldar or Space Marines. I would really like to see the resurgence of Walker armies that are.....playable. I would really like to see our best formation not be a 101-301 man blob of boyz that makes playing EXTREMELY time intense. Mostly though I would really like to see our mobility come back into play and our vehicles becoming more of a threat then just..."hit it with a Lascannon and watch it explode".

They'll probably change design paradigm yet again by the time a new Ork codex releases, so I wouldn't hold any breath.

Much like people in 2014 were looking at the releases and expecting everything eventually to get toned down, and now in 2015 everyone is expecting everything to get toned up, 2016 will probably see-saw back again.

This is my top complaint about 40k, frankly. It amazes me how GW changes course mid-cycle.

On the other hand, if I give GW the benefit of the doubt... 6e really had some issues, which 7e largely fixed. The 7e codex tone-down, an the surface, was a good idea, but really didn't motivate anyone to buy anything. It also didn't really fix the core issue of, "how do I play a list that mirrors fluff that doesn't suck?"

2015 actually fixes both of those. There are formations and superformations post 2015 are really interesting to play, they sell a ton of models for GW (what existing players have all the models to play a Company or Decurion or Warhost?), and are relatively balanced against each other. Even 1st, 10th company are cool. They are good for both scenario and random point-vs-point games.

So, really, my hope is just that GW follows through and finishes off the cycle, producing books for each faction including the ones already done in 2014 that don't have core-auxiliary-command structures that allow slotting in useful, fluffy formations.

This, we have one formation in our base codex, and its a Hobby formation, virtually all of our useful stuff was in Waaagh!! Gazghkull, which thankfully i wanted anyway. You shouldnt need 2 books to actually be competitive, especially when its two books for the same army. I can forgive Ad Mech cuz that actually is to different stand alone armies, they're just better together.

Rihgu wrote:
So if Green Tide doesn't count because it's not fun, what lists of the same competitive tier or high ARE fun?

Pentyrant? Just moving 5 models around and blasting away a couple units of a turn?

Wraith Knight spam? Imperial Knight spam? Lictor Shame? Centstar?

Which of those lists are fun to play with/against?

What makes green tide not fun? The massive time it takes each phase to move the 101+ models. Unless your just shoving them forward and not spacing them at all or standing them back up, each phase of just moving the green tide takes about 5-10 minutes Movement, Running, assaulting, consolidating. Thats just picking them up and moving them. thats not counting any other parts of any phase. I played 2 games with Green tide and I won both of them and both games took over 4 hours to play, even though we were only playing 1,500 point games. one of them took closer to 6 if I recall correctly. Its just not fun. Furthermore if you play against an Eldar player with the Biker spam he can actually table that green tide in 2 turns.

I dont have Pentryants, Knights, lictors, centurions or any other armies so I can't tell you if they are fun or not. What I can tell you is that the green tide ISNT FUN TO PLAY.

 Talys wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Im rather curious how they plan to make orks the same level of "OP Holy Feth this is ridiculous" as say Necrons/Eldar or Space Marines. I would really like to see the resurgence of Walker armies that are.....playable. I would really like to see our best formation not be a 101-301 man blob of boyz that makes playing EXTREMELY time intense. Mostly though I would really like to see our mobility come back into play and our vehicles becoming more of a threat then just..."hit it with a Lascannon and watch it explode".

They'll probably change design paradigm yet again by the time a new Ork codex releases, so I wouldn't hold any breath.

Much like people in 2014 were looking at the releases and expecting everything eventually to get toned down, and now in 2015 everyone is expecting everything to get toned up, 2016 will probably see-saw back again.

This is my top complaint about 40k, frankly. It amazes me how GW changes course mid-cycle.

Yeah, it's pretty astounding how they manage to do that so often

On the other hand, if I give GW the benefit of the doubt... 6e really had some issues, which 7e largely fixed. The 7e codex tone-down, an the surface, was a good idea, but really didn't motivate anyone to buy anything. It also didn't really fix the core issue of, "how do I play a list that mirrors fluff that doesn't suck?"

2015 actually fixes both of those. There are formations and superformations post 2015 are really interesting to play, they sell a ton of models for GW (what existing players have all the models to play a Company or Decurion or Warhost?), and are relatively balanced against each other. Even 1st, 10th company are cool. They are good for both scenario and random point-vs-point games.

So, really, my hope is just that GW follows through and finishes off the cycle, producing books for each faction including the ones already done in 2014 that don't have core-auxiliary-command structures that allow slotting in useful, fluffy formations.

The formations and multiple detachments and whatnot are not without their issues. I've pretty much stopped buying stuff and ceased attending events as a result, amongst a not insignificant number of other players I know. The explosion of power creep offered by formations & detachments, and the huge number of armies that are worse fluff violations than ever possible before through the allies & detachments rules, really kills the experience for a lot of people.

We'll see if GW continues its current codex design paradigm and see if things straighten out after that, but if GW's history is anything to go by, I don't think any of us can hold out breath on either count

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
So if Green Tide doesn't count because it's not fun, what lists of the same competitive tier or high ARE fun?

Pentyrant? Just moving 5 models around and blasting away a couple units of a turn?

Wraith Knight spam? Imperial Knight spam? Lictor Shame? Centstar?

Which of those lists are fun to play with/against?

What makes green tide not fun? The massive time it takes each phase to move the 101+ models. Unless your just shoving them forward and not spacing them at all or standing them back up, each phase of just moving the green tide takes about 5-10 minutes Movement, Running, assaulting, consolidating. Thats just picking them up and moving them. thats not counting any other parts of any phase. I played 2 games with Green tide and I won both of them and both games took over 4 hours to play, even though we were only playing 1,500 point games. one of them took closer to 6 if I recall correctly. Its just not fun. Furthermore if you play against an Eldar player with the Biker spam he can actually table that green tide in 2 turns.

I dont have Pentryants, Knights, lictors, centurions or any other armies so I can't tell you if they are fun or not. What I can tell you is that the green tide ISNT FUN TO PLAY.

Got to agree with this. The Green Tide can, occasionally, be a mildly unpleasant experience for both players. Actually, It's an absolute pain in the arse sometimes. I played it yesterday in a warm up game for a Tournament and in one turn I moved the whole tide 5 times! Move, then Run, then Charge, then pile-in, then consolidate. You can knock that down to 4 times if you combine run with move, if your OP agrees.
Then in his turn he assaulted with hit-and run bikers, which meant another pile in move, and then another consolidation. The whole tide moved 7 times over one turn FFS.
I have stated categorically that once this tournament is over, I am not playing the tide again, it's too limiting, and too boring if I'm honest.
Looks good though.

 r_squared wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
So if Green Tide doesn't count because it's not fun, what lists of the same competitive tier or high ARE fun?

Pentyrant? Just moving 5 models around and blasting away a couple units of a turn?

Wraith Knight spam? Imperial Knight spam? Lictor Shame? Centstar?

Which of those lists are fun to play with/against?

What makes green tide not fun? The massive time it takes each phase to move the 101+ models. Unless your just shoving them forward and not spacing them at all or standing them back up, each phase of just moving the green tide takes about 5-10 minutes Movement, Running, assaulting, consolidating. Thats just picking them up and moving them. thats not counting any other parts of any phase. I played 2 games with Green tide and I won both of them and both games took over 4 hours to play, even though we were only playing 1,500 point games. one of them took closer to 6 if I recall correctly. Its just not fun. Furthermore if you play against an Eldar player with the Biker spam he can actually table that green tide in 2 turns.

I dont have Pentryants, Knights, lictors, centurions or any other armies so I can't tell you if they are fun or not. What I can tell you is that the green tide ISNT FUN TO PLAY.

Got to agree with this. The Green Tide can, occasionally, be a mildly unpleasant experience for both players. Actually, It's an absolute pain in the arse sometimes. I played it yesterday in a warm up game for a Tournament and in one turn I moved the whole tide 5 times! Move, then Run, then Charge, then pile-in, then consolidate. You can knock that down to 4 times if you combine run with move, if your OP agrees.
Then in his turn he assaulted with hit-and run bikers, which meant another pile in move, and then another consolidation. The whole tide moved 7 times over one turn FFS.
I have stated categorically that once this tournament is over, I am not playing the tide again, it's too limiting, and too boring if I'm honest.
Looks good though.

No, that's not boring. That's incredibly fun compared with what I've seen.

There was a guy at my FLGS who played a CSM Plague Zombie list, would bring about 120 of them to each game. The Zombies would march up the board, get shot, then 6 Heldrakes would come on the board and annihilate.

Imagine green tide without the ability to run or shoot, plus a player who was into maximizing cover through placement of each and every model. It would regularly take him 20+ minutes to get through the movement phase, sometimes a lot longer.

I suspect GW will address the need for more anti-armor in the next Codex so green tide lists can be more effective. But I can't see them removing this style of play from the game, it's just too horrible to go away.

you do realize that the MINIMUM size of a green tide is 101 models. The Maximum is a bit over 301 depending on how many characters you plop in to the tide.

The question wasn't "is Green Tide fun?". It was "what equally competitive lists are fun?".

The way I saw the conversation play out was:

A: "Orks aren't competitive! Why doesn't GW love them!?"
B: "But Orks are competitive. Look at this list. It does fairly well."
A: "But that list isn't fun!" <-- This point implied to me that other competitive lists WERE fun, so Orks were still missing out on something that other armies get.

I think the next Ork codex won't really help their core rules get any better but the Orkurion detachment will have some crazy special rules if you take large amounts of stuff. I could see the core portion containing the Boyz and Nobz units while the auxilliary detachments have a clan theme like Evil Sunz having lots of buggies and bikes. Each auxiliary detachment would give a themed bonus to the core detachment so that having the Evil Sunz auxiliary would give the core detachment free trukks. Blood Axes would have kommandos in the unit while giving the core units stealth. etc etc. Buy lots of models and your core boyz gets better. Still won't have solutions to a lot of the more powerful things in the game but at least you will be fielding a lot of models.

It wouldn't be an Orks release without something getting the unjustified nerf bat beat down so I predict they will nerf Lootas into the ground. Whoever wrote the rules finally got over their PTSD from Killa Kanz and realized that it was Lootas that was terrorizing their little plastic army men back in 6th edition and that they must be stopped to save the world from their current reign of terror.

Rihgu wrote:
The question wasn't "is Green Tide fun?". It was "what equally competitive lists are fun?".

The way I saw the conversation play out was:

A: "Orks aren't competitive! Why doesn't GW love them!?"
B: "But Orks are competitive. Look at this list. It does fairly well."
A: "But that list isn't fun!" <-- This point implied to me that other competitive lists WERE fun, so Orks were still missing out on something that other armies get.

Its also been pointed out that the Green tide doesn't work very well against shooty armies because it can be tabled in 2 turns. Ive seen a green tide suffer about 50% casualties in 1 shooting phase by Eldar Jet bikes. I have seen it fail miserably because it still relies on Assault which is currently not a good thing in this game. So its competitive in the sense that it surprised a bunch of people who couldn't figure out how to kill it, but now its not nearly as effective as people realize its still just a bunch of S3 Ork boyz and only so many can possibly get into CC at a time.

I respect the green tide, but I have to go mix it up with them as I play BA. I can't possibly cause enough damage at range.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
The question wasn't "is Green Tide fun?". It was "what equally competitive lists are fun?".

The way I saw the conversation play out was:

A: "Orks aren't competitive! Why doesn't GW love them!?"
B: "But Orks are competitive. Look at this list. It does fairly well."
A: "But that list isn't fun!" <-- This point implied to me that other competitive lists WERE fun, so Orks were still missing out on something that other armies get.

Its also been pointed out that the Green tide doesn't work very well against shooty armies because it can be tabled in 2 turns. Ive seen a green tide suffer about 50% casualties in 1 shooting phase by Eldar Jet bikes. I have seen it fail miserably because it still relies on Assault which is currently not a good thing in this game. So its competitive in the sense that it surprised a bunch of people who couldn't figure out how to kill it, but now its not nearly as effective as people realize its still just a bunch of S3 Ork boyz and only so many can possibly get into CC at a time.

Yes, competitive lists have counters in the current meta. Why should yours be so special?

Rihgu wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
The question wasn't "is Green Tide fun?". It was "what equally competitive lists are fun?".

The way I saw the conversation play out was:

A: "Orks aren't competitive! Why doesn't GW love them!?"
B: "But Orks are competitive. Look at this list. It does fairly well."
A: "But that list isn't fun!" <-- This point implied to me that other competitive lists WERE fun, so Orks were still missing out on something that other armies get.

Its also been pointed out that the Green tide doesn't work very well against shooty armies because it can be tabled in 2 turns. Ive seen a green tide suffer about 50% casualties in 1 shooting phase by Eldar Jet bikes. I have seen it fail miserably because it still relies on Assault which is currently not a good thing in this game. So its competitive in the sense that it surprised a bunch of people who couldn't figure out how to kill it, but now its not nearly as effective as people realize its still just a bunch of S3 Ork boyz and only so many can possibly get into CC at a time.

Yes, competitive lists have counters in the current meta. Why should yours be so special?

Im not sure if your taking what im posting out of context on purpose or if you really don't understand what I was saying. My point was that they aren't really competitive when people understand it and know how to play against it, it was just new.

Rihgu wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
The question wasn't "is Green Tide fun?". It was "what equally competitive lists are fun?".

The way I saw the conversation play out was:

A: "Orks aren't competitive! Why doesn't GW love them!?"
B: "But Orks are competitive. Look at this list. It does fairly well."
A: "But that list isn't fun!" <-- This point implied to me that other competitive lists WERE fun, so Orks were still missing out on something that other armies get.

Its also been pointed out that the Green tide doesn't work very well against shooty armies because it can be tabled in 2 turns. Ive seen a green tide suffer about 50% casualties in 1 shooting phase by Eldar Jet bikes. I have seen it fail miserably because it still relies on Assault which is currently not a good thing in this game. So its competitive in the sense that it surprised a bunch of people who couldn't figure out how to kill it, but now its not nearly as effective as people realize its still just a bunch of S3 Ork boyz and only so many can possibly get into CC at a time.

Yes, competitive lists have counters in the current meta. Why should yours be so special?

Because even Guard shooting can counter a greentide?

Green Tide lists are not competitive and this comes from a Guard player whom hates the Assault phase with a passion.

We need a formation of formations that gives us a bonus allowing our troop selections to go into reserve instead of removed as casualties and redeploy using the reserve rules. Depending on the number of troops selected the enemy might have to do the meatgrinder waltz to the edge of the table to keep it cleared. It might give the Decurion type formation armies more then 3 turns to table Orks. Tbh the IG need something like that too to also represent the sheer numbers they brought but are still behind all the horde on the table.

Rihgu wrote:
So if Green Tide doesn't count because it's not fun, what lists of the same competitive tier or high ARE fun?

Pentyrant? Just moving 5 models around and blasting away a couple units of a turn?

Wraith Knight spam? Imperial Knight spam? Lictor Shame? Centstar?

Which of those lists are fun to play with/against?

We are talking about nearly unlimited number of different listw, yet everyone always brings up netlists. Maybe that is the problem here? With equal points some factions just cannot compete on equal footing, no matter what. That is a huge design flaw and it is never going to be fixed.

Some factions are competitive even if they field almost anything. With Necrons you practically need to work on crippling your list, they are that good. This combined with silly formation bonuses for no cost, for units you would field in any case just further imbalances the game.

It's not about lack of tactics or ability to play, the power difference between various factions is just so big.

If AoS is any indication, they gave up all pretense of even trying to balance the game. Their new mantra is "buy out stuff, make up what happens on the table with your friends over a beer. Or don't, we don't care either way".

The next work codex will tell you all the orks shooting hits on a five, and meelee on a four and all wounds on a four. Bring as many models as you like!

 Orock wrote:
If AoS is any indication, they gave up all pretense of even trying to balance the game. Their new mantra is "buy out stuff, make up what happens on the table with your friends over a beer. Or don't, we don't care either way".

The next work codex will tell you all the orks shooting hits on a five, and meelee on a four and all wounds on a four. Bring as many models as you like!

It's funny that people like you keep posting this nonsense despite the fact that there are no significant indications that GW has plans to revamp 40k to be similar to AoS.

FANTASY WAS NOT SELLING WORTH CRAP. END TIMES WAS THE HIGHEST SPIKE THEY HAD SEEN IN YEARS FOR THAT RANGE.

Its funny that people like you claim to be so clairvoyant that they feel confident enough to exclude any other alternative situation other than the perfect scenario they Invision in their head from the realm of possibility. Until such a time simething is proven one way or another we are entitled to our opinions, as stated on an opinion board.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
The question wasn't "is Green Tide fun?". It was "what equally competitive lists are fun?".

The way I saw the conversation play out was:

A: "Orks aren't competitive! Why doesn't GW love them!?"
B: "But Orks are competitive. Look at this list. It does fairly well."
A: "But that list isn't fun!" <-- This point implied to me that other competitive lists WERE fun, so Orks were still missing out on something that other armies get.

Its also been pointed out that the Green tide doesn't work very well against shooty armies because it can be tabled in 2 turns. Ive seen a green tide suffer about 50% casualties in 1 shooting phase by Eldar Jet bikes. I have seen it fail miserably because it still relies on Assault which is currently not a good thing in this game. So its competitive in the sense that it surprised a bunch of people who couldn't figure out how to kill it, but now its not nearly as effective as people realize its still just a bunch of S3 Ork boyz and only so many can possibly get into CC at a time.

Yes, competitive lists have counters in the current meta. Why should yours be so special?

Because even Guard shooting can counter a greentide?

Green Tide lists are not competitive and this comes from a Guard player whom hates the Assault phase with a passion.

Good thing assault sucks in 7th ed.

Here's my "How to Make Orks Scary in 7th Edition: 101" for anyone at Games Workshop who's reading. Let me reiterate: This is how you make Orks SCARY, as in you'd actually have a challenge on your hand beating this army. Keep in mind that Games Workshop relies on models for everything, so simply saying "Orks need more weapons" usually doesn't work unless you want to introduce a new model kit. So we largely have to work with what we have.

1) How to make Orks better at shooting? Shooting is the core of the 40k game. Orks need to be better at it to be scary.

- More Ork abilities to allow periodical re-rolls of shooting or re-rolls of 1's (Nob / Warboss abilities, Formation bonuses, Twin-Linked Weapons, etc)
- Increase volume of fire (Make Deffguns Heavy 3 instead of Heavy D3. Make Rokkits Assault 2. Make Big Shootas Assault 4
- Increase range on some weapons (Grotzooka increase to 24", Shootas increase to 24")
- Decrease point cost for Ork Weapon upgrades for Infantry. Paying 10 points for a missile launcher for a Space Marine with a 3+ save and a BS4 might be worth it. Paying that same 10 points for a missile launcher when an Ork is firing it at BS2, and easily killable at a 6+ save is not worth it. In Games Workshop's defense, this is something they started doing with the 7th Edition codex. Rokkit upgrades were made cheaper across the board.
- Remove "Gets Hot!" on certain Ork weapons so that they are actually usable by Orks. Kustom Mega Blastas are almost guaranteed to kill the firer, unlike Space Marine Plasma Guns which still get a save vs. the effect.
- Fix certain weapons.
a) KillKannon is still over-priced and being Ordinance hurts it more than helps.
b) The Burna-Bomma missiles are overpriced and useless. Make them S6 AP3 Ignores Cover to make them finally scary and maybe worth the 10 points for a single missile shot.
c) Make the Zzapp Gun hit automatically again, with S 2D6 AP1
- Give the Orks some S9, S10, or D weapons on new models. Orks having nothing to compete against Wraithknights or Imperial Knights unless you count the Stompa, which could be reduced in price by about 400 points (seriously it's that overpriced) compared to its peers in order to be competitive.
- Give Orks some additional AP3 or AP2 weapons. Games Workshop went a long way towards fixing this with the Kustom Mega Kannon, but we need more. Other than spamming Tankbustas or relying on Power Klaws we have no reliable low AP weapons to fight Monstrous Creatures or Gargantuan Creatures.

2) How to make Orks more survivable? Orks are fairly fragile. We have numbers on our side (usually) but it makes most of our elite troops too fragile and not viable.

- Give all Orks 5+ Armor or a 6+ FNP. This is especially needed for units like Stormboys, Kommandos who rely on getting into Assault, but also can't rely on a Transport or a Warboss / Big Mek to help them out.
- Allow Orks some abilities or Wargear to re-roll saving throws. For example, maybe the Kustom Force Field grants a 5++, but in addition also allows failed Cover Saves to be re-rolled.
- Give Warbikes their Smokecloud ability back.
- Give back the Cybork Body 5++
- Allow Painboys to be taken more liberally. Give Painboys an ability to allow Orks with a Cybork save to reroll failed saves.
- Give the Battlewagon the "Invincible Behemoth" special rule. Also reduce the point cost. Allow it to be taken as a dedicated Transport for Boys.
- Give Killa Kans 3 HP, and increase Deff Dreads to 4.
- Make a Mork/Gorkanaut a Super Heavy and give it 8 HP.
- Make the Kustom Force Field grant its ability to UNITS within 6", not simply Models.
- Give Trukks a 5++ Invulnerable Save in place of Ramshackle Vehicle.

3) How to make Orks better at Assault?

The 'Ere We Go rule went a long way towards helping Orks GET to Assault, and I love it. That being said they still could use help. As an Assault-Based army Orks are definitely not the king of Assault.

- Give Orks a mechanic to either have a chance at winning challenges, or ignoring them. Orks rely too heavily on the Nob with the Power Klaw, and this weakness is easily exploited by the challenge mechanic in the rules. You could, for example, give Ork Nobz the ability to pass a Leadership check to ignore an issued challenge. The alternative is giving Orks the tools they need to survive a challenge, either through something like a 4++ (Supa Cybork) save, or FNP.
- Bring back the Ork Choppa Rule. (-1 to armor saves).
- Give Orks some special weapons they can use at Initiative higher than 1 or 2. Warbosses actually do have I4, but they never get to use it! (This option would probably not be viable due to lack of weapons in all the Ork infantry kits. You could possibly introduce it with a new Warboss or Nob kit but that's unlikely)
- Alter the Green Mob table such that a 2-3 succeeds with 10 models in the group, a 4-5 succeeds with a character in the group, and 6 always succeeds with no casualties.
- Any Ork unit with over 10 models automatically passes Fear checks without having to roll (note this doesn't give them the Fearless rule).

4) Costs. Like any army, Orks have issues with overcosted units. In order of probably most overcosted down to those just needing a minor adjustment:

Battlewagon
Gork/Morkanaut (unless you make it a SuperHeavy)
Nobz / Biker Nobz
Killa Kans / Deff Dreads
Dakkajet / Blitzabomma / Burnabomma
Stormboys
Burnaboys
Kommandos



You could make ALL these changes to Orks, and they'd be more fearsome than before. Space Marines could have a tough time fighting them, they might stand a chance against Tau gunlines, and they'd be able to compete with Necrons and Eldar (assuming you give them some suitably good formation bonuses).

The fact that this list is SO long I think illustrates just how much Orks need a leg up. I really love Orks but they need significant help.

Hopefully in a positive way that will put them at a level where they can compete with the other Codex, Eldar crazy pants aside.

Murrdox, sounds good but it's never going to happen. Orks are just the faction that gets no love from GW. Hopefully the next codex will be written by someone who understands orks and what they need unlike the last one.

Murrdox wrote:
Here's my "How to Make Orks Scary in 7th Edition: 101" for anyone at Games Workshop who's reading. Let me reiterate: This is how you make Orks SCARY, as in you'd actually have a challenge on your hand beating this army. Keep in mind that Games Workshop relies on models for everything, so simply saying "Orks need more weapons" usually doesn't work unless you want to introduce a new model kit. So we largely have to work with what we have.

1) How to make Orks better at shooting? Shooting is the core of the 40k game. Orks need to be better at it to be scary.

- More Ork abilities to allow periodical re-rolls of shooting or re-rolls of 1's (Nob / Warboss abilities, Formation bonuses, Twin-Linked Weapons, etc)
- Increase volume of fire (Make Deffguns Heavy 3 instead of Heavy D3. Make Rokkits Assault 2. Make Big Shootas Assault 4
- Increase range on some weapons (Grotzooka increase to 24", Shootas increase to 24")
- Decrease point cost for Ork Weapon upgrades for Infantry. Paying 10 points for a missile launcher for a Space Marine with a 3+ save and a BS4 might be worth it. Paying that same 10 points for a missile launcher when an Ork is firing it at BS2, and easily killable at a 6+ save is not worth it. In Games Workshop's defense, this is something they started doing with the 7th Edition codex. Rokkit upgrades were made cheaper across the board.
- Remove "Gets Hot!" on certain Ork weapons so that they are actually usable by Orks. Kustom Mega Blastas are almost guaranteed to kill the firer, unlike Space Marine Plasma Guns which still get a save vs. the effect.
- Fix certain weapons.
a) KillKannon is still over-priced and being Ordinance hurts it more than helps.
b) The Burna-Bomma missiles are overpriced and useless. Make them S6 AP3 Ignores Cover to make them finally scary and maybe worth the 10 points for a single missile shot.
c) Make the Zzapp Gun hit automatically again, with S 2D6 AP1
- Give the Orks some S9, S10, or D weapons on new models. Orks having nothing to compete against Wraithknights or Imperial Knights unless you count the Stompa, which could be reduced in price by about 400 points (seriously it's that overpriced) compared to its peers in order to be competitive.
- Give Orks some additional AP3 or AP2 weapons. Games Workshop went a long way towards fixing this with the Kustom Mega Kannon, but we need more. Other than spamming Tankbustas or relying on Power Klaws we have no reliable low AP weapons to fight Monstrous Creatures or Gargantuan Creatures.

2) How to make Orks more survivable? Orks are fairly fragile. We have numbers on our side (usually) but it makes most of our elite troops too fragile and not viable.

- Give all Orks 5+ Armor or a 6+ FNP. This is especially needed for units like Stormboys, Kommandos who rely on getting into Assault, but also can't rely on a Transport or a Warboss / Big Mek to help them out.
- Allow Orks some abilities or Wargear to re-roll saving throws. For example, maybe the Kustom Force Field grants a 5++, but in addition also allows failed Cover Saves to be re-rolled.
- Give Warbikes their Smokecloud ability back.
- Give back the Cybork Body 5++
- Allow Painboys to be taken more liberally. Give Painboys an ability to allow Orks with a Cybork save to reroll failed saves.
- Give the Battlewagon the "Invincible Behemoth" special rule. Also reduce the point cost. Allow it to be taken as a dedicated Transport for Boys.
- Give Killa Kans 3 HP, and increase Deff Dreads to 4.
- Make a Mork/Gorkanaut a Super Heavy and give it 8 HP.
- Make the Kustom Force Field grant its ability to UNITS within 6", not simply Models.
- Give Trukks a 5++ Invulnerable Save in place of Ramshackle Vehicle.

3) How to make Orks better at Assault?

The 'Ere We Go rule went a long way towards helping Orks GET to Assault, and I love it. That being said they still could use help. As an Assault-Based army Orks are definitely not the king of Assault.

- Give Orks a mechanic to either have a chance at winning challenges, or ignoring them. Orks rely too heavily on the Nob with the Power Klaw, and this weakness is easily exploited by the challenge mechanic in the rules. You could, for example, give Ork Nobz the ability to pass a Leadership check to ignore an issued challenge. The alternative is giving Orks the tools they need to survive a challenge, either through something like a 4++ (Supa Cybork) save, or FNP.
- Bring back the Ork Choppa Rule. (-1 to armor saves).
- Give Orks some special weapons they can use at Initiative higher than 1 or 2. Warbosses actually do have I4, but they never get to use it! (This option would probably not be viable due to lack of weapons in all the Ork infantry kits. You could possibly introduce it with a new Warboss or Nob kit but that's unlikely)
- Alter the Green Mob table such that a 2-3 succeeds with 10 models in the group, a 4-5 succeeds with a character in the group, and 6 always succeeds with no casualties.
- Any Ork unit with over 10 models automatically passes Fear checks without having to roll (note this doesn't give them the Fearless rule).

4) Costs. Like any army, Orks have issues with overcosted units. In order of probably most overcosted down to those just needing a minor adjustment:

Battlewagon
Gork/Morkanaut (unless you make it a SuperHeavy)
Nobz / Biker Nobz
Killa Kans / Deff Dreads
Dakkajet / Blitzabomma / Burnabomma
Stormboys
Burnaboys
Kommandos



You could make ALL these changes to Orks, and they'd be more fearsome than before. Space Marines could have a tough time fighting them, they might stand a chance against Tau gunlines, and they'd be able to compete with Necrons and Eldar (assuming you give them some suitably good formation bonuses).

The fact that this list is SO long I think illustrates just how much Orks need a leg up. I really love Orks but they need significant help.

Exalted!

You mirror many of my own thoughts about making the ladz better

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Im rather curious how they plan to make orks the same level of "OP Holy Feth this is ridiculous" as say Necrons/Eldar or Space Marines. I would really like to see the resurgence of Walker armies that are.....playable. I would really like to see our best formation not be a 101-301 man blob of boyz that makes playing EXTREMELY time intense. Mostly though I would really like to see our mobility come back into play and our vehicles becoming more of a threat then just..."hit it with a Lascannon and watch it explode".

orks really aren't even that bad now, they aren't a 100% win 24/7 but by god with enough boyz on the field they do pretty well.

Orks should not auto pass fear checks do you want to make that rule even more useless