Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
We need a formation of formations that gives us a bonus allowing our troop selections to go into reserve instead of removed as casualties and redeploy using the reserve rules. Depending on the number of troops selected the enemy might have to do the meatgrinder waltz to the edge of the table to keep it cleared. It might give the Decurion type formation armies more then 3 turns to table Orks. Tbh the IG need something like that too to also represent the sheer numbers they brought but are still behind all the horde on the table.

So 4th ed Tyranid Without Number? Im all for that, call that one Green Tide

The 8th edition codex will give us some new formations that allow us to complete with Decurion, et. al.

Then the 8th edition Necron codex will drop, giving all units 3+ invul, 3+ RP and make wraiths cheaper.

I dont think theyll get nerfed. Some wierd sideways power shifts, and small buffs for the newer kits they want to sell. Over all i think their raw power will come up only a little. Keeping them where they were when their previous codex was new.

I think there ok now. They give my BAs fits . Outside of whitescars bike hordes with multiple TFCs and an Iknight, I dont see orks being overly troubled by marines. Eldar & 'crons in any form are a strugle. And not to be rude, but if you dont like moving around a lot of models why did you pick THEE horde army?

(notable exception to this is the gladius strike force)

Nothing to do other than make some of the random units viable in game, however, really the fact is we all have units that are terrible...

I am sorry, but if you can not win with orcs compared to marines in the current codex editions that both have then you should really ask for some help other than complaining... Orcs are hands down one of the strongest armies in the game and have been for a VERY long time.



2 combined arms detachments

1st Mad Doc
War boss Mega armour lucky stick

spam boys....

2nd
Warboss Bike thinkin cap
Pain Boy Bike

Spam bikes

Thyhadras wrote:
Nothing to do other than make some of the random units viable in game, however, really the fact is we all have units that are terrible...

I am sorry, but if you can not win with orcs compared to marines in the current codex editions that both have then you should really ask for some help other than complaining... Orcs are hands down one of the strongest armies in the game and have been for a VERY long time.

I am sorry if you suck so bad that you can not win with what may be the best army in the format....

2 combined arms detachments

1st Mad Doc
War boss Mega armour lucky stick

spam boys....

2nd
Warboss Bike thinkin cap
Pain Boy Bike

Spam bikes


if you can not build around that and win then you need to find a new army or here is an idea.... Practice and figure out how to play rather than just complain




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also... Prowler PC.... YOU HAVE THE BEST TROOP CHOICE FOR THE POINTS IN THE GAME!!!!

Seriously math hammer it out and a shoota boy is the best troop in the game... and honestly shoota boy squads are one of the better squads in the game,,,

well that is a very constructive post.

Thyhadras wrote:
Orcs are hands down one of the strongest armies in the game and have been for a VERY long time.

'K.

Do you disagree Jim? And how was my post not constructive, I have been listening to people complain about orcs for a long time, yet some of the toughest games I have ever seen have been with orcs...


And here we can make it more constructive, to make changes then the orcs should see a points drop in the elites units, and maybe even move lootas to heavy support as there is very little for ehavy slots in the codex that is worth anything. Also, I would like to see them give back invulnerable saves to mega nobs as that is pretty crappy that they can not get it (or add a toughness to them instead).

Thyhadras wrote:
Do you disagree Jim? And how was my post not constructive, I have been listening to people complain about orcs for a long time, yet some of the toughest games I have ever seen have been with orcs...


And here we can make it more constructive, to make changes then the orcs should see a points drop in the elites units, and maybe even move lootas to heavy support as there is very little for ehavy slots in the codex that is worth anything. Also, I would like to see them give back invulnerable saves to mega nobs as that is pretty crappy that they can not get it (or add a toughness to them instead).

yeah dude, you don't know Orks at all.

1: ITS ORK not FETHING ORC
2: Orks have been considered mid to low tier since this game was invented. your literally the only person I Know who considers them top tier.
3: Lootas are already in the heavy slot and the heavy slot is the most over populated slot we have. Lootas, Mek Gunz, Killa Kanz, Dreadz, Morkanaught, Gorkanaught, Battle Wagonz and Flash Gitz

Now granted out of all those heavy slots, Lootas, Mek Gunz and Battle Wagonz are the good stuff, Kanz and dreads are meh and Mork/Gork and Flash gitz suck.

4: the New Space Marine Codex is considered Top tier and on a parallel with Necrons/Eldar.

5: your basing your entire argument on a single game against an Ork Player, in a game based on statistical chance.
6: Saying "Learn to Play" is considered rude on this forum.

^No, boys and characters are the good stuff

Sorry for being rude then... let me rephrase... I have been playing for almost 20 years, and since the dawn of this game I have heard nothing but how orcs are terrible. However, I have played against them in Ard' boys when they had the nob biker squad that was absolutely brutal. Then I have played against them numerous time since.

If you want to know the biggest problem with OrKs it is simply that you can not build a fun to play list that is still competitive (hundreds of games of personal experience)

Building a competitive list is doable and we just had a green tide build hammer into a decurion formation and beat it pretty handily (the decurion build was the popular net list). However, the tide army was basically exactly what I mentioned earlier with the bike army using gretchen as filler that sat back and held objectives.

So while I say learn to play it is not meant to be rude or mean spirited, it is simply that there are answers in every codex...

Sorry by the way for some reason I was thinking that lootas were elite, which means they are fine in heavy, because honesty they may be the only heavy option that is even remotely worth taking because of the points cost of the battle wagon and the fact that the rest of the walkers are terrible (there is some chance that under certain circumstances Def Dreads could pull their weight, but so many armies run heavy anti mech that they are usually useless.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also... 3rd edition Orks owned the game with the battle wagon and meganobs... 4th edition saw the push for rocket boys owning the table... and as we have gotten to now shoota boys win you games (furthermore, the lucky stick may be the best piece of wargear in the game).

So yes, are their problems with the codex? Sure, but the biggest problem I think comes from the idea of building a list you will think is fun and then planning on winning. If you want to build a list to win then build a list that will win to everything (with a very close game between gladius and decurion) or build a fun list that will see you enjoying the game with a chance to win but not going in thinking you are going to win no matter what.

I'm sorry guys, but I'm onboard with Thy-

Orks have been one of the most powerful armies since 3rd edition: I've been playing since 2nd.

It seems that people always make subpar lists, take them to tournaments, and then complain about how something like the decurion necron lists walk over them. "BUT I HAD 5 Killa kanz and units of 12 boys in trukksprotected by a KFF Mek".... sorry, you built a poor list and got whooped.

I'd be willing to put my current 1500pt ork list up against anything out there right now and go in confident that I have a fighting chance.

Same as he posted above, not trying to sound rude, but learn the strengths of the codex and use them on the table. There is no reason Orks aren't near the top tier right now.

Nob bikers aren't a thing in the new codex/7th edition because they are WAY to over priced. Also Mek Gunz are about the best option we have now.

Green tide is the absolute most boring army to play as.

Yes their are answers to most codex's but the ork codex is so under powered we have very few answers to anything.

I have to disagree.

For example, I cant think of a single Marine build that would give orks any trouble currently (and I play both). Unless the ork list builder is stuck in the old ways of thought by only using 1 CAD.

And Nob bikers are dead, but normal bikers are amazing.




I guess I just fail to see how people complain when we get some of the best point for point unit destroying characters (Warboss), the best point for point troop choice in the game (shoota boy), and cheap tricks like FNP everywhere, Lukky Stikk Meganob, finkin cap, and MSU opportunity. I very rarely loose a game with Orks in 7th.

Ghaz, fact is bikers are almost as good bro, and the warboss on bike is a machine that is possibly the most deadly thing in the game short of gargantuan creatures...

Also, I agree green tide is boring to play against... but it is the answer... which the tide walks over every thing in the marine book but the gladius formation, and I would imagine it would act the same for running over crons other than the decurion... so if the two top tier books according to people have one list that makes them top tier then how do orcs not fall into the top tier with their one list?

Crappiest part of you whole codex is 50 bucks for a 18-35 point model...

Furthermore, can you expound on what makes the top tier armies so beast that they shut down orcs to make them a terrible army?

Btothefnrock wrote:
I have to disagree.

For example, I cant think of a single Marine build that would give orks any trouble currently (and I play both). Unless the ork list builder is stuck in the old ways of thought by only using 1 CAD.

And Nob bikers are dead, but normal bikers are amazing.

I can think of a couple off the top of my head and I don't play Space Marines, also unless your fielding 1 or 2 of the good lists out their for orks you have Zero chance against Eldar/Necrons/SM played by someone who is competent.

example? Because I literally cant think of anything that scares me.

And Thy, Tide is really good if setup right, but not the best list IMHO- it just happens to be the one that players in major tournaments are bringing because its the "perceived" best list.

In the current dex, the power units we have are Warboss' (bike/PK and MA/DLS), Painboys, Mad Doc, Shoota Boys, Warbikers, MANz Missiles in Trukk. Other very good units are Lootas, Mek Guns, Meks, Single Koptas. Everything else (unless you are looking at supplements/other formations) are simply not as competitive in all honesty.

Yes, Green Tide is also incredibly hard to beat in the current missions, as it also has great board control.

As Ghaz posted earlier, I really do wish walker lists were viable again, that was a fun era. Also Speed Freaks, but 12 boys in trukks are simply a complete waste of points currently, as many units in the dex are. But this is the same with every codex- there are the great competitive units, the meh filler stuff, and the "this is in here for fun games only" level stuff...

Trust me, when the most recent codex came out and I saw the lack of invul saves, the upping of shoota points, loss of fearless, etc, I was scared that Orks were going to be low tier, but not after trying new list ideas.

Ghaz, if the three mentioned lists do not bring their best to the table then I do not see where you are getting the information that those three codex's are going to walk you...

And what you said about bringing the good lists is the same problem that every codex is going to have...

I think they'll make bikes even better. GW started to LOVE bikes since 6-th for some reason. Sometimes i feel they've employed this guy to fix stuff in new dexes.

And he always goes like: "All's fine but i feel that bikes need a buff".

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
Sky is always falling with you people isnt it

and what army do you play die toten hosen? because it seems your the best Ork player in the world because you clearly know the most about the Ork army and how it is as good or better then recent codex's.

Probably another Marine player deigning to look upon us non Space Marine peasants.

lol exalted.

I play tau.
A well formulated and intelligently played ork list can ruin my day.

I have not and will never play orks, they are a boring aesthetic to me, i do however TO numerous events and work at a LGS so i see a very large number of games played and also play a very large number. Luckily i have a varied meta when it comes to armies and player types.

i would also like to know how green tide is boring when its just about as basic ork fluffy you can get, one giant horde descending an enemy, basically unstoppable if kitted correctly.

though im gonna assume as soon as i said i was a tau player you stopped reading.

die toten hosen wrote:

though im gonna assume as soon as i said i was a tau player you stopped reading.

We resumed reading as soon as you've said you're tau second time. [tau][/tau]

MANz or anything for that matter in Trukk's SUCK why? because Open topped + AP1-2 = Explodes. yeah manz will probably survive the explosion but you are now foot sloggin and you will get shot off the table. Fact.

Warbikers are alright right now, what sucks for them is if they don't win the CC in the 1st round its basically GG since its still just S3 boyz.

A warboss is still a good CC character and always has been, but in a Dakka edition he sucks because its hard to get him into combat.

I run several different lists depending on what im doing that day but very rarely do I field anything less then 10 Warbikers.

The most success I have had is when I run Lootaz inside of Battle Wagons. Then I run my bikes up the flank as a distract and try to out dakka the dakka lists. That or I Run the green tide against an unsuspecting opponent who didn't bring enough Dakka to wipe it out in 2 turns.

die toten hosen wrote:
though im gonna assume as soon as i said i was a tau player you stopped reading.

Exalted. haha.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
MANz or anything for that matter in Trukk's SUCK why? because Open topped + AP1-2 = Explodes. yeah manz will probably survive the explosion but you are now foot sloggin and you will get shot off the table. Fact.

False.

Are you putting them directly at the front edge of the deplyment, in the open, and saying "SHOOT ME!" and expecting them to make it? Even so, worse case, the trukk blows up in your DZ and they are forced to walk. They still take a decent amount of firepower to move out of cover by shooting.

Think about this logically for a second. For a very low cost, you get a 3 man unit that has the capability of getting up close to your opponents line T1 if they aren't dealt with T1, and will wipe most units (aka not combat heavy, not deathstar) or cause massive casualties if they reach combat. They are a Distraction Carnifex unit. Multiply that by taking two units of them. Then add other things like bikes which are also able to close in and cause massive damage if not dealt with on T1. Manz units win lots of games, either by actually killing lots of stuff, or by being a cheap distraction.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Warbikers are alright right now, what sucks for them is if they don't win the CC in the 1st round its basically GG since its still just S3 boyz.

They shoot more, are still crazy good at surviving with painboy and Warboss added (same as Nobs used to have though), and cover more of the table for the same points. No, they aren't the CC beasts they once were, but they are much better at shooting which is a great benefit this edition, and still pack a good punch to finish units off afterward. Strong unit, just a different role and not a Deathstar. We dont have ANY deathstar units anymore.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

A warboss is still a good CC character and always has been, but in a Dakka edition he sucks because its hard to get him into combat.

Exactly, he is a good CC unit for the points, but needs a good delivery method to be effective now. (like bike or MA+DLS+unit of boys or Lootas)



Ork Dakka lists are pretty fun to play, but aren't all that great by themselves. Like the lootas in a wagon idea- sounds kind of good on paper, but its a huge points sink. Aegis line+Lootas is much better and cheaper than the wagon. Only unit that should go in a BW IMHO is... well, none stand out because the BW isn't really worth taking in the current Shooty meta- its going to be destroyed T1 if its a threat, and its too much liability after you add the cost of the upgrades+ the unit that will be stranded when it blows. (This is why I like trukks since they are dirt cheap, or better yet the options that come with using supplements that have better than AV10 and are still cheap.)

This codex requires a mix of Dakka + solid CC cleanup + survivability + board control to work well. We don't have a singe amazing CC unit, we don't have a single amazing Dakka unit; but we have super cheap tarpits, massed cheap dakka, massed cheap PK's, cheap units to control objectives, etc... which makes for a very solid army if chosen correctly.

it just kind of sucks that most of the units many of us like such as kanz, flashgits, tanksbustas, Battlewagons, KFF, etc.. aren't worth taking anymore. Orks changed playstyle very drastically over the last edition and Codex, and are much harder to play than the good old days of "reach CC and I win" tactics...

Thyhadras wrote:

I am sorry if you suck so bad that you can not win with what may be the best army in the format....


if you can not build around that and win then you need to find a new army or here is an idea.... Practice and figure out how to play rather than just complain

,

Comments like this add nothing to any discussion and really do not help one make one's point.

Please endeavour to refrain from posting in such a style in the future.

Thank you.

Personally, I think it's rather rich to see someone who's at least got a 7th edition codex + an added supplement doing nothing but whining when some of us lowly plebs are still being forced to make a go of it with early 6th edition codices...
Orks have long been competitive throughout 40k's past, just not in an "Easy Mode" style like Eldar or Loyalist Marines have typically gotten.

You know who's typically gotten the real shaft though? Chaos Marines. 3.5 got them a lifetime ban on ever receiving nice toys again.

Btothefnrock wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
though im gonna assume as soon as i said i was a tau player you stopped reading.

Exalted. haha.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
MANz or anything for that matter in Trukk's SUCK why? because Open topped + AP1-2 = Explodes. yeah manz will probably survive the explosion but you are now foot sloggin and you will get shot off the table. Fact.

False.

Are you putting them directly at the front edge of the deplyment, in the open, and saying "SHOOT ME!" and expecting them to make it? Even so, worse case, the trukk blows up in your DZ and they are forced to walk. They still take a decent amount of firepower to move out of cover by shooting.

Think about this logically for a second. For a very low cost, you get a 3 man unit that has the capability of getting up close to your opponents line T1 if they aren't dealt with T1, and will wipe most units (aka not combat heavy, not deathstar) or cause massive casualties if they reach combat. They are a Distraction Carnifex unit. Multiply that by taking two units of them. Then add other things like bikes which are also able to close in and cause massive damage if not dealt with on T1. Manz units win lots of games, either by actually killing lots of stuff, or by being a cheap distraction.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Warbikers are alright right now, what sucks for them is if they don't win the CC in the 1st round its basically GG since its still just S3 boyz.

They shoot more, are still crazy good at surviving with painboy and Warboss added (same as Nobs used to have though), and cover more of the table for the same points. No, they aren't the CC beasts they once were, but they are much better at shooting which is a great benefit this edition, and still pack a good punch to finish units off afterward. Strong unit, just a different role and not a Deathstar. We dont have ANY deathstar units anymore.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

A warboss is still a good CC character and always has been, but in a Dakka edition he sucks because its hard to get him into combat.

Exactly, he is a good CC unit for the points, but needs a good delivery method to be effective now. (like bike or MA+DLS+unit of boys or Lootas)



Ork Dakka lists are pretty fun to play, but aren't all that great by themselves. Like the lootas in a wagon idea- sounds kind of good on paper, but its a huge points sink. Aegis line+Lootas is much better and cheaper than the wagon. Only unit that should go in a BW IMHO is... well, none stand out because the BW isn't really worth taking in the current Shooty meta- its going to be destroyed T1 if its a threat, and its too much liability after you add the cost of the upgrades+ the unit that will be stranded when it blows. (This is why I like trukks since they are dirt cheap, or better yet the options that come with using supplements that have better than AV10 and are still cheap.)

This codex requires a mix of Dakka + solid CC cleanup + survivability + board control to work well. We don't have a singe amazing CC unit, we don't have a single amazing Dakka unit; but we have super cheap tarpits, massed cheap dakka, massed cheap PK's, cheap units to control objectives, etc... which makes for a very solid army if chosen correctly.

it just kind of sucks that most of the units many of us like such as kanz, flashgits, tanksbustas, Battlewagons, KFF, etc.. aren't worth taking anymore. Orks changed playstyle very drastically over the last edition and Codex, and are much harder to play than the good old days of "reach CC and I win" tactics...

The problem with kanz lies with walkers being generally walking first blood, add to it that if your CC walker gets immobilized then your 100 plus points now sits there useless.

Each codex has its bum units. Units that while good in their own right, just cant compete well. I would like to have certain aspects of the codex i play regularly to be more appealing and competative, several players who frequent the LGS i work for say similar things.

Dismissing a legitimate set of army builds because you somehow find a horde of orks unfluffy and boring is a BS excuse and based on the past history of ork threads it keeps seeming more and more like you just want to complain and not take any actual advise on the matter.

Thyhadras wrote:
Do you disagree Jim? And how was my post not constructive, I have been listening to people complain about orcs for a long time, yet some of the toughest games I have ever seen have been with orcs...


And here we can make it more constructive, to make changes then the orcs should see a points drop in the elites units, and maybe even move lootas to heavy support as there is very little for ehavy slots in the codex that is worth anything. Also, I would like to see them give back invulnerable saves to mega nobs as that is pretty crappy that they can not get it (or add a toughness to them instead).

To be fair, Orks are decent against fluffy lists, because most any list with an Ork army is fluffy and they compete well against other armies that lack shooting.

As soon as the guns come out in force, the Orks just evaporate before they get anywhere. If they charge, they might wipe out a few units on the front lines, but then they are wide open for the next turn's shooting and get tabled. If they try a mirror gunline, they don't have the range/rate of fire/slots to match.

Btothefnrock wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
MANz or anything for that matter in Trukk's SUCK why? because Open topped + AP1-2 = Explodes. yeah manz will probably survive the explosion but you are now foot sloggin and you will get shot off the table. Fact.

False.

Are you putting them directly at the front edge of the deplyment, in the open, and saying "SHOOT ME!" and expecting them to make it? Even so, worse case, the trukk blows up in your DZ and they are forced to walk. They still take a decent amount of firepower to move out of cover by shooting.

Think about this logically for a second. For a very low cost, you get a 3 man unit that has the capability of getting up close to your opponents line T1 if they aren't dealt with T1, and will wipe most units (aka not combat heavy, not deathstar) or cause massive casualties if they reach combat. They are a Distraction Carnifex unit. Multiply that by taking two units of them. Then add other things like bikes which are also able to close in and cause massive damage if not dealt with on T1. Manz units win lots of games, either by actually killing lots of stuff, or by being a cheap distraction.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Warbikers are alright right now, what sucks for them is if they don't win the CC in the 1st round its basically GG since its still just S3 boyz.

They shoot more, are still crazy good at surviving with painboy and Warboss added (same as Nobs used to have though), and cover more of the table for the same points. No, they aren't the CC beasts they once were, but they are much better at shooting which is a great benefit this edition, and still pack a good punch to finish units off afterward. Strong unit, just a different role and not a Deathstar. We dont have ANY deathstar units anymore.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

A warboss is still a good CC character and always has been, but in a Dakka edition he sucks because its hard to get him into combat.

Exactly, he is a good CC unit for the points, but needs a good delivery method to be effective now. (like bike or MA+DLS+unit of boys or Lootas)



Ork Dakka lists are pretty fun to play, but aren't all that great by themselves. Like the lootas in a wagon idea- sounds kind of good on paper, but its a huge points sink. Aegis line+Lootas is much better and cheaper than the wagon. Only unit that should go in a BW IMHO is... well, none stand out because the BW isn't really worth taking in the current Shooty meta- its going to be destroyed T1 if its a threat, and its too much liability after you add the cost of the upgrades+ the unit that will be stranded when it blows. (This is why I like trukks since they are dirt cheap, or better yet the options that come with using supplements that have better than AV10 and are still cheap.)

This codex requires a mix of Dakka + solid CC cleanup + survivability + board control to work well. We don't have a singe amazing CC unit, we don't have a single amazing Dakka unit; but we have super cheap tarpits, massed cheap dakka, massed cheap PK's, cheap units to control objectives, etc... which makes for a very solid army if chosen correctly.

it just kind of sucks that most of the units many of us like such as kanz, flashgits, tanksbustas, Battlewagons, KFF, etc.. aren't worth taking anymore. Orks changed playstyle very drastically over the last edition and Codex, and are much harder to play than the good old days of "reach CC and I win" tactics...

Exalted. Man, everything you said was true.

Meganobz can easily earn their points back and more. Even if your opponent takes them out and the Trukk they were in, all those mobs of Boyz behind them just avoided all that deadly fire. I sometimes pair Mad Dok with them to turn them into an absolutely nasty CC squad. Add Killsaws and Kombi-Skorchas for additional deadliness. Bit costly and uses an HQ slot, but it's fun to see.

Warbikers, especially Nob Bikers, can be a brutal beatstick if used correctly. Speed up to important enemy unit, pepper them with Dakkaguns, and cripple what's left in assault. You don't even need all PKs; with HoW and Big Choppas you'll cause so many wounds that they can't possibly save all of them. Add Painboy to make them more durable and PK Warboss to instagib and clean up anyone who might still be a alive.

And I agree wholeheartedly that, sadly, Orks are nowhere near as simple as they used to be. Boyz will still be the bread and butter of your army, but it's really difficult to find a playstyle that fits you. Still a positive though, as there's dozens of ways you can form your army, unlike Tyranids or Tau.

My personal favorite strategy is whenever I play the Great Waaagh! detachment, I take a Big Mek with Mega Armor, KFF and Supa-Cybork, and plop him in a mob of 10 Lootas and a regular Mek. With Slow and Purposeful conferring to the Lootas, I can move, shoot, AND assault. And with the Big Mek having a 2+ armor, 5++ against shooting, Feel No Pian, and Eternal Warrior, that git ain't dying anytime soon. Plus the KFF and SaP gives the Lootas more durability and mobility.

Let's look at the Warbiker - 18 points.

S3, T5, BS2, with a 4+ Save. Armed with a twin-linked Dakkagun S5 AP5 Assault 3. Not bad.

Then let's look at a Space Marine Bike - 21 points. Let's look at what it gains / loses over a Warbiker.

S4, BS4, I4, Ld8, with a 3+ Save. Already we're stronger, faster, better morale, twice as good at shooting, and save 16% more wounds for only 3 more points? That's a pretty good deal!

Now look at the weapons:

Twin Linked Dakkagun vs. two twin-linked Bolt-Guns. The Bolt Guns get to rapid fire within 12", they're twin-linked, and they're firing at BS4 instead of BS2. About the only thing the Dakkagun has going for it is that it's S5 instead of 4. I would give the advantage, once again, to the Space Marine. Over time, the Space Marine is going to hit more often and do more wounds shooting than the Dakkagun will, unless you're shooting at targets where the Dakkagun's S5 really matters.

Then throw in other Space Marine bonuses like ATSKNF, and the fact that they can put heavy weapons like Grav Guns on their bikes.

Don't get me wrong... Warbikers definitely ARE one of the stronger Ork units in the codex right now. That's why you see people using Forgeworld Characters to bring them as Troops to tournament games.

But even then... our Warbiker is easily outshined by Space Marines. Would you rather pay 18 points for an Ork Warbiker, or would you rather pay 21 points for a Space Marine bike? If those two units were in the same codex it would be no contest, you'd pick the Space Marine bike. If you could pay 3 points to upgrade the Warbiker's armor to 3+, that ALONE would be worth the point difference.

In a nutshell, that's the position Orks are in right now. (And I'm not saying we're the only army in this situation, I feel for Dark Eldar and Imperial Guard and Chaos Marines too.)

Believe you me, I'd love to play in some of these clubs that are mentioned in this thread where Orks are a top tier codex. I'd love for my Orks to actually cause some fear in my opponent. But all my games with the 7th Edition Codex feel like trying to ice-skate uphill. I can sometimes squeek out a win, but it's not often. My opponents don't even have to TRY very hard to beat an Ork army. On the other hand, I have to use every trick at my disposal to come up with the most brutal army list imaginable with the tools that I have... and I still will probably lose. Now granted, I'm not playing Green Tide and I'm not using Forgeworld Biker characters... but a good codex should give you more options than that to be qualified as a "good codex".

Murrdox, what about the fact that if you compare them to each other, the marine now wounds on 5+ versus 4+ on the ork. I would also like to point out that you have two attacks base versus our one. The ATSKNF is most definitely a difference, but I think that they are actually quite equal to each other.

So what do you run that makes your club members run over you so easily? Do you have other models to throw in that could have a different effect... one thing I have noticed since forums for 40k started is that Ork players have been some of the most negative players I have encountered when it comes to their army. Further, I find it hard to imagine how Mad Doc and shoota boys seems to be forgotten about in exchange for the likes of burna's and loota's (the loota's are good). I know that it sucks to have so much stuff in your army that is useless... but every codex has useless models... just the ork ones seem like they should be so cool, but then in game they are terrible (kans, defs, battle wagon, looted wagon... etc.)

Thyhadras wrote:
So what do you run that makes your club members run over you so easily? Do you have other models to throw in that could have a different effect... one thing I have noticed since forums for 40k started is that Ork players have been some of the most negative players I have encountered when it comes to their army. Further, I find it hard to imagine how Mad Doc and shoota boys seems to be forgotten about in exchange for the likes of burna's and loota's (the loota's are good). I know that it sucks to have so much stuff in your army that is useless... but every codex has useless models... just the ork ones seem like they should be so cool, but then in game they are terrible (kans, defs, battle wagon, looted wagon... etc.)

Actually I think you're wrong and it'd be sad if you know that many Ork players who are negative. I think most Ork players LOVE being Ork players! I know I certainly do. I can bitch and moan with the best of them about wanting to be able to actually WIN GAMES, but I LOVE my army, and I love it so much that I'll put them on the table knowing that I'll probably lose, because they're FUN to play with. Not gonna lie though, it'd be fun for me to put my Ork army on the table and have my opponent actually be intimidated by it. That hasn't happened since 5th Edition.

The crux of the issue is that Orks have more weaker units in our codex than most armies, and the best units in our codex are still not as good as what most other codexes get for the same amount of points or cheaper. We have lots of weaknesses that are easily exploited, and we don't have many strengths that other armies don't have an easy time surpassing.

In the current game setup, Orks are all Paper, and most armies are sporting Scissors. There aren't many Rocks out there for us that we really shine against.

I'm honestly glad I don't have it worse than I do. I don't play against any Imperial Knight armies. I think I'd rather just not even put my models down against that.