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For those in the know, do the HH books have rules for Alpharius and Omegon separately? Or is it a special character you can just take two of? Or because they're never around publicly together in the same place because secrets that the part of the fluff is ignored? I'm just curious how reasonable it is to expect a two figure primarch offering.

Nope, there's just Alpharius and a pair of other characters, no Omegon.

edit.

I think at this point they're very much waiting for the trainwreck that is the Alpha Legion in the novels to properly flesh out now that the Heresy is ongoing.

 BrookM wrote:
Nope, there's just Alpharius and a pair of other characters, no Omegon.

edit.

I think at this point they're very much waiting for the trainwreck that is the Alpha Legion in the novels to properly flesh out now that the Heresy is ongoing.

Thanks. Too bad. I think this is a nice opportunity to make a double figure primach set and I hope they don't miss it just to make another incredibly expensive figure on top of a rock on top of a wrecked vehicle on top of a hill. It feels like the Forgeworld HH character line has become a terrain line with the increasingly vast majority of the resin UNDER the actual figure.

 warboss wrote:
For those in the know, do the HH books have rules for Alpharius and Omegon separately? Or is it a special character you can just take two of? Or because they're never around publicly together in the same place because secrets that the part of the fluff is ignored? I'm just curious how reasonable it is to expect a two figure primarch offering.

Omegon isn't mentioned at all in the FW books. I think it's because they're written almost like history books and Omegon wasnt common knowledge.

If FW plans to make versions of some Primarchs "before" and "after", than they surely can make a proper AL Primarch by adding a miniature of Omegon. One of the reasons I thought Alpharius stats suck monkey's balls against pure math of any other Primarch so far made is because Alpharius and Omegon combined would kick the hell out of others.

 Yaraton wrote:
If FW plans to make versions of some Primarchs "before" and "after", than they surely can make a proper AL Primarch by adding a miniature of Omegon. One of the reasons I thought Alpharius stats suck monkey's balls against pure math of any other Primarch so far made is because Alpharius and Omegon combined would kick the hell out of others.

I'd like to see that/be able to field that!

 Yaraton wrote:
If FW plans to make versions of some Primarchs "before" and "after", than they surely can make a proper AL Primarch by adding a miniature of Omegon. One of the reasons I thought Alpharius stats suck monkey's balls against pure math of any other Primarch so far made is because Alpharius and Omegon combined would kick the hell out of others.

That's not the only issue... Guilliman is just too powerful, and Rogal is incredibly weak, compared to all the others. Alparius is even worse than him, but Rogal at least is supposed to be a powerful warrior and a good tactican, where Alpharius is freaking amazing at strategy.

I thought his stats were worse just because he's smaller and not known for being a fighter, and his special rules make up for it in terms of what he does to his army.

Some are better fighters, others are more subtle and offer better army-wide buffs.

But people looking for Primarch versus Primarch battlers, this may not be what you're looking for.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I thought his stats were worse just because he's smaller and not known for being a fighter, and his special rules make up for it in terms of what he does to his army.

I think this is true, but I think he is small because he is a twin. I think at some point we will see FW rules for Omegon, but i doubt we will see a combined Alpha-Omega character pack unless they release Omegon rules before Alpharius' model is finished. Which would likely mean a very long wait for the model.

 warboss wrote:
I'm just curious how reasonable it is to expect a two figure primarch offering.

Can't you accomplish the same thing by buying two Alpharius models? I mean they're supposed to be identical or at lest indistinguishable, right?

 Breotan wrote:

 warboss wrote:
I'm just curious how reasonable it is to expect a two figure primarch offering.

Can't you accomplish the same thing by buying two Alpharius models? I mean they're supposed to be identical or at lest indistinguishable, right?

Depends. If the Primarch model is a boring plain looking Marine, then yes. If it is full on elaborate glorious Primarch outfit, then it kinda gives the game away if there is two....

I guess when Alpharius goes to meet a Primarch he wears his Terminator armor, at least then he can look them straight in the eyes

 Haighus wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I thought his stats were worse just because he's smaller and not known for being a fighter, and his special rules make up for it in terms of what he does to his army.

I think this is true, but I think he is small because he is a twin. I think at some point we will see FW rules for Omegon, but i doubt we will see a combined Alpha-Omega character pack unless they release Omegon rules before Alpharius' model is finished. Which would likely mean a very long wait for the model.

Or, he's smaller because that's how the Emperor designed him...now, whether he designed him to actually be THEM, that's still up in the air. But the discussions of the primarch gene-tech in Deliverance Lost strongly hints that number XX was intentionally made smaller than his brothers.

Aren't the XX Legion Marines taller than average as well?

Guilliman is the fourth best fighter amongst the released Primarchs ATM, with Horus, Fulgrim and Angron beating him. I imagine he'll drop to sixth once the last three are released, seventh depending on if they make the Lion s better fighter than him.

Though, Fulgrim and Angron are a coin flip most of the time, if Guilliman keeps Fulgrim concussed it is over for Fulgrim, while Angron dies if Guilliman gets the charge.

Isn't Rogal Dorns chainsword ap3 or unwieldy or something silly? That's the main problem with him, if I recall.

Dorn's Chainsword is Unwieldy. It kinda makes him suck.

I think my only issue with Guilliman is that he's reasonably effective as a duelist, as he should be, but gets some really, really stupid buffs out of nowhere. The Armour of Reason being able to basically autotank every first hit made at it?! I don't think any other Primarch has anything that is even close to being that much bull. Horus has the best armour period of course, but it doesn't give that kind of insane protection, it just outrules a lot of the buffs others could have used to keep him down. Likewise, protection against Concussion is nice, but not if it's outside a Challenge, where you could say that it makes a lot more sense. The boost to WS is also nice and fluffy, but why is it that it isn't just a flat WS +1 in Challenges, like most other melee-minded Challenge characters has? Ultramarines aren't even known for being that good at Challenges and duels, that goes to te Emperors Children.

Unweildy on a Primarch weapon though? I mean.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Guilliman is the fourth best fighter amongst the released Primarchs ATM, with Horus, Fulgrim and Angron beating him. I imagine he'll drop to sixth once the last three are released, seventh depending on if they make the Lion s better fighter than him.

Though, Fulgrim and Angron are a coin flip most of the time, if Guilliman keeps Fulgrim concussed it is over for Fulgrim, while Angron dies if Guilliman gets the charge.

Isn't Rogal Dorns chainsword ap3 or unwieldy or something silly? That's the main problem with him, if I recall.

Logar can also beat Guilliman one on one if you include all the blessings Logar can give himself. Angron's biggest problem is that 3+ save, you're doing something wrong if you haven't managed to chip off a wound or two from him on the way into combat.

What are you basing that Horus beats Guilliman, 1d4chan? Their numbers for Horus seem off

Horus is:
WS8, S7, T6, A5, 3++ and has shred

Guilliman is:
WS7, S6+1, T6, A4+1, 4++ master crafted and has shred

I get a 1.481 wounds inflicted on Guilliman without his reroll on his first save (I think that takes it to about 1?) as Horus hits Guilliman, 3 to hit, 3 to wound, while Guilliman hits on a 4, wounds on a 3s, 3++ means 0.741 wounds? I have them much closer than 1d4chan. I've ignored IWND as it applies equally to both.

Horus normally makes short work of his brothers because he knocks down their WS, but Guilliman has the perfect counter for it. If he can prevent Horus wounding him for a single turn he can force Horus into rolling 4s to hit, then Guilliman will win as he will gain in WS pushing him to hit on 3s on the second turn he doesn't take a wound (which is more likely as Horus will be hitting on 4s), Horus can't ever take WS from Guilliman so it becomes one sided.

I'm expecting The Lion, The Angel to be clearly better than Guilliman in CC, the Wolf and the Khan I'm not sure, I think they will be around Horus and Guilliman level. Magnus is going to be similar to Logar, awesome and unstoppable if you buff him up.

I'm waiting to see who is best overall Primarch in CC, the Lion or the Angel.

Dorn's chainsword is just useless, I hope he gets retooled when they redo him for the final battle on Terra. He should be hitting at full I with his hammer.

Remember that Horus takes Guilliman's Strength, too.

Ah I missed that, in that case Guilliman's power fist has a fixed strength of 10 so after the first wound he would switch from the sword to the hammer and drop to 0.694 wounds a turn from 0.741.

Just an FYI, the five best challengers among the Primarchs math-wise are actually;

Horus (number 1), Lorgar Empowered (number 2), Fulgrim (number 3), Perturabo (number 4), Roboute Guilliman (number 5)

Perturabo with Forgebreaker only loses to Roboute, Lorgar Empowered and Horus, he beats everyone else due to Blind + Concussive. The page says he loses to Angron but for whatever reason the author forgets that Perturabo will Concussive/Blind Angron within a round or two, and Angron doesn't do enough damage to kill him in that time before Perturabo effectively takes over. Perturabo averages one unsaved wound per round (not including It Will Not Die) meaning Angron will be Concussed/Blinded in 5/6 rounds after the first/second. As I worked out below based off the maths done on 1d4chan (supposedly its mostly accurate), even if Perturabo doesn't beat Angron then he would still tie with Roboute for most wins and thus equal third place. So yes, you guys are definitely selling him short; I'm actually amazed no-one here mentioned Perturabo yet as while he loses to Roboute in a 1v1, he notches more overall wins (he only loses to Horus/Lorgar Empowered/Roboute, whereas Roboute loses to Horus/Lorgar Empowered/Fulgrim/Angron).

The other thing to keep in mind here is that the math done on 1d4chan mostly doesn't include the Blind/Concussive combo that Perturabo puts out, of which only a few (Horus, Roboute, maybe one other) are immune to. This is what makes him win almost all of the one on one duels eventually, even if Strikedown doesn't work as it used to.

As an aside @Looky Likey, Horus' Talon negates Guilliman's +1 WS bonus, meaning he will pretty much permanently hit Guilliman on 3s, wound him on 3s with re-rolls, has an extra attack and strikes first. Horus also ignores Concussive on a 3+, ergo Horus still has the overall advantage. You also forgot that Horus gets a bonus attack for having two close combat weapons (neither of them are Specialist Weapons). Also, going strictly off math averages, Horus WILL cause an unsaved wound on Guilliman in every single round, meaning Guilliman won't pull ahead on WS at any point.

Just to clarify, this is how all the Primarchs rank in terms of number of actual wins - and this assumes they have their best weapons (meaning Fulgrim has Fireblade, etc), the ones with Hit and Run can pull their shenanigans (namely Corax and Kurze), no charge bonuses so they are on an even footing (except for the aforementioned Hit and Run dudes once they start taking full advantage of that) and that the Primarchs are strictly 1v1 with no assisting models, while someone like Angron doesn't get his potential bonus attacks factored in - this is using the (mostly accurate?) numbers done on 1d4chan with corrections done where necessary (Strikedown doesn't affect Initiative anymore, etc);

Horus - 12 wins
Lorgar Empowered - 11 wins
Fulgrim - 10 wins
Perturabo - 9 wins
Roboute - 8 wins
Vulkan - 7 wins
Ferrus Manus - 6 wins
Angron - 5 wins (surprising, no?)
Konrad Kurze - 4 wins
Mortarion - 3 wins
Corax - 2 wins
Rogal Dorn - 1 win
Alpharius - 0 wins

Of course, it's a very different story if Angron gets bonus attacks first, but for these strict 1v1 duels he's actually not as crash hot as some believe. In fact, if Angron has maxed out bonus attacks, he gets 11 wins (only losing to Horus)! Also of note, regular Lorgar (i.e. not empowered) loses against everyone, including Alpharius.
The really surprising one to me is Vulkan, he literally beats most of the other Primarchs through sheer resilience....unlike Mortarion.
Also, if anyone has corrections on how many actual wins each Primarch gets, feel free. I couldn't be bothered doing the maths myself and just used the 1d4chan results.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of the Primarchs still to come, I'm betting Magnus will be the strongest in 1v1 for the same reason as Lorgar Empowered; psychic powers + Primarch = virtually unstoppable lord of death. Magnus is supposed to be way, way stronger in terms of psychic powers than Lorgar and is also generally regarded as being one of the physically strongest Primarchs due to his sheer size. Of course, whether Forge World actually goes that route is the real question, especially as Magnus could very easily exceed the 500 point mark if they do him the same justice they have for the other Primarchs. Otherwise, Sanguinius should easily be the best and probably the only one that will be able to beat Horus (again, perhaps Magnus but who knows).

Gotta say, of all the Primarchs to get rules so far, I think Dorn is easily the most disappointing. He's the second weakest Primarch in 1v1 engagements, being superior only to Alpharius (and regular Lorgar if you count him), his overall stats are average but his weapons are awful. An Unwieldy Chainsword with Shred and Rampage is nowhere near as impressive as many of the other close combat weapons wielded by Primarchs, especially as Dorn has only base 4 Attacks and Strength 6. But hey, you can halve his attacks AFTER counting bonuses to get +2 Strength and Instant Death! Ok.....so even if he gets the charge and rolls a 3 on Rampage, he still only gets 4 Attacks at Strength 8 with Shred and Instant Death. Meanwhile at Vulkan/Perturabo/Roboute Guilliman/Ferrus Manus/Horus/Lorgar/etc.......

His defences are slightly above average as he can never be wounded on a 2+ but it's really nothing comparable to what someone like Vulkan gets. Also, has anyone else noticed that his ranged weapon is actually a detriment to him? It's a Salvo gun and he is NOT Relentless, meaning he can't charge if he shoots it. So....much....derp, especially as it is hilariously one of the weaker Primarch ranged weapons. His army wide buffs are pretty decent I think; +D3 to combat resolution hugely benefits a combat-oriented army - of which you can make Imperial Fists into, to be fair. If you look at how 30K lists tend to be constructed competitively, all those combat-oriented buffs really aren't that good in comparison to what many other Primarchs offer. I also derped here and thought his Furious Charge and Crusader were army-wide, but they only apply to him and his unit (sigh). His army-wide Leadership 10 in conjunction with Vexillas and Stubborn inside of terrain make Imperial Fists almost as good as Iron Warriors at holding ground at least. His bonus to three fortifications/buildings is nice enough, as is his in-built Teleport Homer and unlocking Terminators as Troops.

Yes, he is one of the cheapest Primarchs, but come on....I expected far more of the Praetorian. This isn't to say I think he is a bad Primarch rules-wise, just that he has two stupid limitations (a Salvo ranged weapon when he lacks Relentless, an Unwieldy melee weapon that is much weaker than almost all other Primarch weapons) and doesn't really provide that much compared to quite a few of the others. Also, there's another "what the?" moment with his rules where his only melee weapon is Unwieldy and yet he has Frag Grenades....I'm starting to think that his Chainsword wasn't intended to be Unwieldy! Honestly, the best use for Dorn is to bring a heavily discounted Thunderhawk Gunship at 3000+ point games. Comparing him to Fulgrim who is actually 5 points cheaper than Dorn just makes me so sad. Fulgrim is by far the better 1v1 Primarch duelist and is better at killing pretty much anything else due to being Strength 7 with master-crafting and Instant Death on 6s (assuming you take Fireblade) while fighting with an insanely high Initiative, Fulgrim is much harder to kill when in close combat, can potentially cause Blind, plus he gets to pick - not roll for, but actually pick - a Warlord Trait from either Strategic (the best trait table by far) or the Legion ones which can have some massive bonuses for his army or himself. His army wide buffs outside of what you can do with a guaranteed Strategic warlord trait are also decent with +2 to combat resolution scores - much like Dorn - and re-rolling reserve rolls, though obviously not quite as good as Dorn's. I would also say Fulgrim has the better ranged weapon simply because while Dorn's will do more damage, Fulgrim's doesn't stop him from charging.

As far as I'm concerned, literally nobody gets to moan about their Primarchs being underpowered or whatever, because at least FW didn't start this entire shindig literally at the moment in the background when yours was(newly, remember in the old fluff he was just "missing" like Vulkan, who somehow came out of that state as being literally unkillable...*eyebrow*) unceremoniously fething beheaded.

One book. We got one damn campaign book with Ferrus as an actual thing, and going forward the Iron Hands, as well as apparently never getting our own Heresy novel, will only even be mentioned as part of this "Shattered Legions" thing, where the Heresy writers both FW and BL have decided we have to be "fixed" by learning how to fight like Salamanders and Raven Guard.

So yeah, complaining your Primarch is marginally less effective in close combat against another is, IMO, the First World Problems of the Heresy - be happy you have a Primarch you can actually use in your games.

 Yodhrin wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, literally nobody gets to moan about their Primarchs being underpowered or whatever, because at least FW didn't start this entire shindig literally at the moment in the background when yours was(newly, remember in the old fluff he was just "missing" like Vulkan, who somehow came out of that state as being literally unkillable...*eyebrow*) unceremoniously fething beheaded.

One book. We got one damn campaign book with Ferrus as an actual thing, and going forward the Iron Hands, as well as apparently never getting our own Heresy novel, will only even be mentioned as part of this "Shattered Legions" thing, where the Heresy writers both FW and BL have decided we have to be "fixed" by learning how to fight like Salamanders and Raven Guard.

So yeah, complaining your Primarch is marginally less effective in close combat against another is, IMO, the First World Problems of the Heresy - be happy you have a Primarch you can actually use in your games.

Nice one, except I don't play Imperial Fists and I'm not even really a fan of Rogal Dorn. Speaking from a strictly rules-based perspective, I'm saying that the profile he has is really disappointing compared to what I imagine he should be whereas I can't really say that of any of the other Primarchs personally.

Also, there's nothing stopping you from using Ferrus in your games unless you are explicitly playing a post Istvaan campaign game where your group rules he isn't allowed for fluff reasons, or am I missing something?

I'm pretty sure White Scars have it worse, though. Apart from their balla upgrade packs, they get seemingly no love.

As has been discussed, WS (along with BA, DA, and maybe SW and TS) will get some rules in the next book to tide them over until they get their full treatment.

Regarding primarchs...they're all PDG and capable. They have differing points values, and the game itself isn't about primarch duels (which also could swing wildly based on just a few lucky/unlucky rolls), so these simulations aren't worth much other than as a just-for-fun exercise.

 gorgon wrote:
As has been discussed, WS (along with BA, DA, and maybe SW and TS) will get some rules in the next book to tide them over until they get their full treatment.

Regarding primarchs...they're all PDG and capable. They have differing points values, and the game itself isn't about primarch duels (which also could swing wildly based on just a few lucky/unlucky rolls), so these simulations aren't worth much other than as a just-for-fun exercise.

Space Wolves and Thousand Sons have been confirmed not to make their appearance in Book 6, they are being saved for Prospero.

Again, I don't think Dorn is terrible, I just find his rules to be disappointing. It's mostly because his two weapons don't seem to make any sense - an Unwieldy weapon with no Strength bonus and a salvo bolter that prevents him from charging, contrary to all the other Primarchs. Trying to say any specific Primarch isn't worth their points is really difficult as different Legions play so differently from each other and each individual Primarch buffs their Legions in specific ways that might not have really obvious benefits. A good example of this is Fulgrim; the +2 to combat resolution seems kinda "meh", but combine it with the Emperors' Children big bonuses to making Sweeping Advances and it becomes pretty clear why he provides that bonus. Dorn is perfectly fine, I just expected more...."ooomph" out of him, he just feels very middle of the road if that makes any sense. His rules are the only ones that don't grab me in any way; for example, I love Mortarion's teleporting and durability, while Corax can Vector Strike and is essentially built to run around the battlefield causing havoc by himself. I just don't find anything exciting about Dorn and it is really unfortunate!

The funny thing about the Primarch duels is that they really are just for fun seeing as rushing two opposing Primarchs at each other in a game is usually an awful idea as even though one might win, by the time the two actually make it into combat the game will probably end before they kill each other! It's also amusing seeing as Rogal Dorn is one of the weakest in the Primarch duels, yet he's superior to someone like Perturabo - one of the top 1v1 Primarch duelists - in general close combat terms by far. I only consider it a tiny part of how I measure the competitive worth of a Primarch as it will almost never make a difference, about the only thing you can extrapolate from them is how a Primarch might fare against some of the super tough characters/gargantuan creatures in 40K. Take Alpharius for example; he'll bounce off things like Ta'unars, but he'll utterly monster a D-Thirster. Contrast that to Vulkan who should utterly destroy a Ta'unar or even a Hierophant with his many Strength 10 AP1 Initiative 5 Instant Death attacks, but who stands a very real chance of being slain by the aforementioned D-Thirster in a battle of simultaneous death. The only reason I mentioned Dorn's performance in those 1v1 duels is that I think it just doesn't "jive" with his background and it just seems to add to the other reasons I dislike his rules. If nothing else, it is "cool" to see them fight each other and see who would win - in essence helping us fan-children finally work out the "who would win scenarios" we all play out on forums - even if it probably isn't that exciting to actually play out

 Looky Likey wrote:
Aren't the XX Legion Marines taller than average as well?

They were (and are still?) back in the INDEX ASTARTES days - but back then Alpharius was also as tall as Horus, so...

Lol, the thread has turned into a "My gene-sire can beat up your gene-sire!" argument.

Fair point - we should probably move on/stick to the topic now!