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hey dakka, so I was eating lunch with my brother, and I was talking about the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse. And an argument came up, who would win in a battle of khorne vs satan.

Satan, or the devil, is at full strength, as with khorne, all his daemons are absorbed into himself.

disclamer - I do not know much about christian mythos, so be patient if anything I say is wrong.

Debate!

This is like Goku vs Superman, it's impossible to solve.

Satan's greatest achievement is tricking someone into eating an apple, so I'll give it to Khorne.

Satan could actually be seen as a pretty good dude, especially compared to his buddy god. In the bible the amount of evil satan actually commits is really quite low.

Khorne all the way. Satan just isnt evil or strong enough. He actually helps a person at one point in the bible. Khorne would just rip his skull off.

 Orblivion wrote:
Satan's greatest achievement is tricking someone into eating an apple, so I'll give it to Khorne.

Maybe the apple was made out of skulls, in which case Satan = Khorne.

Disclaimer: I am a believing Christian from a liturgical church. What follows reflects what I know and believe about Satan, and does not reflect all Christian points of view. It's also why I tend to capitalize 'He' when I refer to God.

Satan's purview is more toward being the Prince of Lies than a combat monster. Deception and double dealing are more his thing than a straight-on fight. His persona is far more that of a slick lawyer than a warrior. In that way he's more like Tzeentch than Khorne. Satan is far more likely to manipulate his victims into doing his dirty work than to pick up a weapon himself. By the time the fight starts you've already been defeated.

To paraphrase an old quote, 'Satan's best trick was convincing the world he didn't exist.'


In Matthew 4:8-9 Satan tempted Jesus by showing him all the kingdoms of earth in their glory. Satan said 'All these things I will give to you if you fall down and worship me.' Again, that suggests tremendous political power and the military might behind it more than combat prowess. And again, it sounds more like Tzeentch than Khorne. Also interesting - Satan actually wanted Jesus' worship.

The only time Satan's combat power is ever really considered is in the accounts of the War in Heaven. Lucifer was the greatest of the Archangels prior to his fall, so he's likely to be formidable in combat. On the other hand, according to Christian folklore, he was defeated by the Archangel Michael, who was theoretically less powerful in personal combat. Satan was cast into Hell, ending the War in Heaven. Whether that speaks more of Satan or Michael's combat prowess is an open question.

One might also argue that Michael was God's enforcer, the general of the Celestial Host, and therefore is the warrior of the Christian mythos. Lucifer might well be 'more powerful' overall without being a skilled combatant.

Comments about God's beneficence aside, God is clearly overwhelmingly powerful compared to Satan. It's worth noting that Christian folklore never portrays God taking a direct war in the War in Heaven. It's implied that had He done so the war would have ended instantly, though it's never explained why He did not intervene. In the Book of Job Satan needs God's permission to test Job; he has to wheedle to get that permission, and even then God places conditions that Satan never even tries to circumvent. It can be argued that in Job Satan appears almost like a subordinate, though it might well be that the Prince of Lies play-acted his old subservient role in order to get a shot at a valued human target.

Keep in mind that Job is part of the Old Testament. Christian folklore does not entirely apply.

In fact, modern depictions of Satan's realm are mostly derived from the Book of Revelation - the final book of the New Testament, and traditionally the last one written, almost a generation after Jesus ascension. Our visions Satan and Hell were cemented by Dante Alighieri in his Inferno, part of his trilogy The Divine Comedy.

Inferno reflects Christian folklore as seen through the lens of the Renaissance, looking back at the horrors of the 'Dark Ages' - the Fall of Rome, the Black Plague, the Islamic conquests, the Vikings, the Huns, the Mongols, etc. With all these catastrophes, each of which crushed 'civilization as we know it' it's no wonder European religious folklore had become pretty Apocalyptic by Dante's time.

Of course, the 40k universe has no real concept of a Creator God, let alone a benevolent one. Comparing Satan to God is something of an aside.

Hopefully this post gives some insight into the power and character of Satan from a Christian perspective to carry on the discussion as the OP suggested.

My two cents.

This would not even be a remotely equal figth, Khorne would shurg and cleave Satan appart with his sword, whom if memory serves me correct can cleave worlds in two and what not.

Clearly Mr Satan would win

According to the Book of Job, Satan needs God's permission to tempt mortals. Khorne needs no such sign-off.

Advantage: Khorne.

Lucifer (Satan) is a Fallen Angel. Analogous to a Greater Daemon. Khorne is a recognized deity, commanding legions of Greater Daemons.

Advantage: Khorne.

The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse are not actually agents of Satan, they really don't have a place in this discussion. Khorne has Kharne and Angron at his disposal.

Advantage: Khorne.

... I think you can see where this is going.

Here's the thing; pre-Fall Lucifer would essentially be as powerful as God wanted him to be. God is far greater than any of the Ruinous Powers.

Post-Fall, Khorne would likely have the advantage because as said, Satan was a deceiver. His power came from temptation and the like. So I'd say Khorne would defeat Satan if it came to a straight fight. Lucifer when he was still with God however? Curb-stomp. From what I understand anyway.

ok. thanks!

By the time M40 rolls around, all the religions of Earth have either been forgotten utterly, or were obliterated by the Emperor and purged completely by the Ecclesiarchy.

While I'm not wanting to start a philosophical debate here, if we're going by 40K universe rules, the Judaeo-Christian God, and all the various beings associated with it, have been devoured by the Warp.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Here's the thing; pre-Fall Lucifer would essentially be as powerful as God wanted him to be. God is far greater than any of the Ruinous Powers.

Post-Fall, Khorne would likely have the advantage because as said, Satan was a deceiver. His power came from temptation and the like. So I'd say Khorne would defeat Satan if it came to a straight fight. Lucifer when he was still with God however? Curb-stomp. From what I understand anyway.

I agree with Psienesis, going by the established fluff of 40k then God would not be greater than any of the Ruinous Powers. In fact, his absence in 40k indicates exactly how little power he had.

It would depend on who got the charge off

 Psienesis wrote:
By the time M40 rolls around, all the religions of Earth have either been forgotten utterly, or were obliterated by the Emperor and purged completely by the Ecclesiarchy.

While I'm not wanting to start a philosophical debate here, if we're going by 40K universe rules, the Judaeo-Christian God, and all the various beings associated with it, have been devoured by the Warp.

Assuming that all gods inhabit the same alternate dimension and need worship to sustain themselves. Which isn't a safe assumption.

A lot of this depends on what is 'canonical' or not. In the Christian belief, God obviously created the universe entirely, and has unlimited power to imbue his subjects with. So in that context, if God wanted Lucifer to win a fight against Khorne, he would.

Lucifer against Khorne alone, yeah, that's going to go bad for the devil, but Satan cannot exist without the influence of God, and seeing as how he hasn't been squished yet, there must be some reason he wants him around, so I doubt he would let him get punked out like that.

wait, so is the power in the warp a gestalt field type thing?

Satan would win. God does not want Satan to lose, and God is all-powerful, unlike Khorne, so He just snuffs Khorne out of existence.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
wait, so is the power in the warp a gestalt field type thing?

For a warp entity like a Chaos God, yeah that's a good way to visualize it.

Khorne wins on walkover.

ignore god. He would have nothing to do with this.

also, why would he not want khorne to win? Isn't like satan gods arch enemy? If you are pulling the card that he needs satan to exist, so he can run hell or whatever, why was there a war in heaven? Why did so many angels die for no reason, when god could have just created a being that was not so hateful of humans that he would take heaven to war?

Sorry if this has become christian lore 101, but this has just come to my attention, thanks!

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Isn't like satan gods arch enemy?

No. Satan is a minor character in the bible that does a few nasty things because that's what he's told to do. He kills a total of maybe two people with approval from his boss.

Anything else is made up later, when the church had to explain why pagan religions were evil and why you should be afraid of not belonging to the church. And Milton's Paradise Lost ofc.

Neither actually exist so I guess it's a draw.

 Orblivion wrote:
Satan's greatest achievement is tricking someone into eating an apple, so I'll give it to Khorne.

And that act kicked all of mankind out of paradise, and made them mortal with eternal damnation being an option after death. So, maybe a comparison to Tzeentch would be better.

It's more easy than the previous debates. God and satan don't be real but Khorne it's fething real In the universe of 40k so, Khorne wins because satan and the christian god of hate and slaughter are a fantasy child tale.

I think a more fitting match up would be Lucifer vs. Tzeentch vs. Deciever vs. Cegorach in a battle of wits (or poker)

Or

Lucifer vs. Slaanesh to see who is the bigger hedonist

 Psienesis wrote:
By the time M40 rolls around, all the religions of Earth have either been forgotten utterly, or were obliterated by the Emperor and purged completely by the Ecclesiarchy.

While I'm not wanting to start a philosophical debate here, if we're going by 40K universe rules, the Judaeo-Christian God, and all the various beings associated with it, have been devoured by the Warp.

Orblivion wrote:I agree with Psienesis, going by the established fluff of 40k then God would not be greater than any of the Ruinous Powers. In fact, his absence in 40k indicates exactly how little power he had.

Usually in these debates the participants use their own "rules". Kind of like the two universes merge or some such.

As I see it in this case you'd have still have the omniscient God and then you'd have 40K Khorne (well the time period isn't specified but I assume 40K) with his described power as well. And Satan with his described power.

gummyofallbears wrote:also, why would he not want khorne to win? Isn't like satan gods arch enemy? If you are pulling the card that he needs satan to exist, so he can run hell or whatever, why was there a war in heaven? Why did so many angels die for no reason, when god could have just created a being that was not so hateful of humans that he would take heaven to war?

In Christianity God is all powerful. Satan is not. If God willed it Satan would be destroyed. There wouldn't have to be a fight. What makes you think any angels died in the War in Heaven? I think it's unknown if angels can in fact die.

 Silverthorne wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
By the time M40 rolls around, all the religions of Earth have either been forgotten utterly, or were obliterated by the Emperor and purged completely by the Ecclesiarchy.

While I'm not wanting to start a philosophical debate here, if we're going by 40K universe rules, the Judaeo-Christian God, and all the various beings associated with it, have been devoured by the Warp.

Assuming that all gods inhabit the same alternate dimension and need worship to sustain themselves. Which isn't a safe assumption.

A lot of this depends on what is 'canonical' or not. In the Christian belief, God obviously created the universe entirely, and has unlimited power to imbue his subjects with. So in that context, if God wanted Lucifer to win a fight against Khorne, he would.

Lucifer against Khorne alone, yeah, that's going to go bad for the devil, but Satan cannot exist without the influence of God, and seeing as how he hasn't been squished yet, there must be some reason he wants him around, so I doubt he would let him get punked out like that.

In 40K? Yes. All gods of all religions and mythologies reside in the Warp, and are dependent on mortal worshippers to power them. Once even the memory of the various Judaeo-Christian religions was wiped from the collective memory of Mankind, all of those Warp-beings died. God, Jesus, all the various angels of the Heavenly Host, Lucifer, Baalzebub, all the Fallen Angels and the devils & demons of Hell.... poof. Gone. Vanished. Possibly devoured by the up-and-comers in the Warp.

If you view God through the Gnostic writings (few and far between now thanks to the church in Rome) the old testament God is a being who believes himself to be all powerful and demands faith. Not knowing that he is merely a creation of a higher being. He also impedes knowledge. This sounds quite like Tzeentch. Not trying to impune anyone's religion but the Gnostic view point puts an interesting spin on this question.

gummyofallbears wrote:also, why would he not want khorne to win? Isn't like satan gods arch enemy? If you are pulling the card that he needs satan to exist, so he can run hell or whatever, why was there a war in heaven? Why did so many angels die for no reason, when god could have just created a being that was not so hateful of humans that he would take heaven to war?

In Christianity God is all powerful. Satan is not. If God willed it Satan would be destroyed. There wouldn't have to be a fight. What makes you think any angels died in the War in Heaven? I think it's unknown if angels can in fact die.

In 40k, Satan would be another gestalt entity feeding off all of the combined evil, in essence robbing the other demons (Including the false emperor) of their power. Also Satan may be vainglorious, but Khorne is a bellowing imbecile; so I'd give it to the adversary on the intelligence meter. At a point where they were in the same universe operating under the same rules it would become more like Freddy vs Jason or Hulk vs Loki. The latter wins as long as it's not a contest of direct combat, and the latter tries to make sure it NEVER becomes one.

Khorne is a god of warfare, which includes a degree of tactical thought and planning. He is also the god of violence and bloodshed.