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 Ashiraya wrote:

The Shadowfield is OK when it's not rerollable because it is on a t3 model and is removed if you fail it once.

On a T5 character, not so much...

Failing that save typically removes the character as well as the Shadowfield. Such is the fate of T3.

We house rule rerollable 2+ invul saves to be a 4+ on the second roll at my FLGS.

Check again. Tzeentch herald on a disc only gets +1 attack and becomes jetbike. No wound or toughness increase.

The math is accurate but the thing about random chance and odds - it's RANDOM. I've been on both ends of a really durable unit with rerolls fnp and other tricks get shot to pieces by lazgun fire cause the dice just happens to say "nope" that one time. I never said the odds are good or even ideal. But in my expirence - force enough saves (by shooting it or hitting it a lot) and eventually a few fail. Might take a turn or 2. But just because the math says I need 3678 marines in rapid fire range with 1+++ to hit - dosent mean it's not worth a shot with the 20 marines I do have. Or that battery of krak missiles. Or whatever else I can throw at it. The alternative? Admit defeat, give up and take your models home. And before the game just ask the guy "do you have a 2++ super death magic machine of doom?" If he says yes "good game!" And move on to the next one. Congrays I just saved you 2 hours of your life - wich can be used to complain on random forums. Yay!

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Check again. Tzeentch herald on a disc only gets +1 attack and becomes jetbike. No wound or toughness increase.

Unit Type: Jetbike includes the Armoured Steed rule, granting +1 Toughness. The Herald gets that bonus for exactly the same reasons they can move over terrain and Jink; because they're now riding a Jetbike.

I went up against 2++ re-rollable once. that with a 10 ing foot barge pole, that is one mistake that I am never ever ever going to make again.

Whoa, mozzamanks that would change my life if it were the case... Why does it say that the herald of khorne gets +1 strength toughness and attacks on a juggernaut, does that mean he actually gets +2 toughness?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hold on. Disregard that comment. A juggernaut is not a jetbike.. But where did the W3 come from?

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Whoa, mozzamanks that would change my life if it were the case... Why does it say that the herald of khorne gets +1 strength toughness and attacks on a juggernaut, does that mean he actually gets +2 toughness?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hold on. Disregard that comment. A juggernaut is not a jetbike.. But where did the W3 come from?

W3 is wrong. They are still W2 but they are T4 from the jetbike

 krodarklorr wrote:
Yup, because this game should totally have a 2++ rerollable save in it, am I right guys?

I, for one, am looking forward to a new Daemons Codex.

I'm not arguing that a re-rolled 2++ isn't completely gakky and stupid. Tzeentch Daemons are my main, and the only time I've ever pulled that one out, was on my LoC when playing against a friend for a laugh, who I specifically told ahead of time, 'hey, wanna see something really stupid?'
After setting everything up and landing that re-rolled 2++, I massacred a 5-man CSM squad, and my friend simply decided to file that model under 'ignore it' come his turn, and instead went after the rest of my army that was now seriously lacking in buffs! (as my only Forewarning & the Grimoire were now both tied up into a single target)

Yes a re-rolled 2++ is moronic & highly OP. But it's;
A) No worse than the gakky stuff other codices get, and is now league behind the likes of Decurions, Str.D, etc...
B) Typically requires 800+ fething pts worth of an entire Daemons army to viably set-up!!

It's a bad tactic in 7th, as Psykers overall are easier to counter, Fateweaver isn't so completely impossible to deal with anymore, Screamerstar can't shoot a billion odd shots anymore, etc...

It's a noob-killer tactic pure and simple. Bad players will flip out and foolishly throw their entire army at the unkillable pts sink, then scream and yell about how OP/busted Daemons are. Good players will either ignore the one target they can't hurt, or else tarpit it/feed it a chaff unit and get on with blowing chunks out of the rest of enemy they can readily hurt.


Mind you, I find it rather hypocritical to hear a freaking Necron player crying foul over our super expensive, can explode horribly in your own face super survival gimmick, when their own entire army can be made pretty much indestructible for 0 additional pts cost, AND, 0 risk involved!

Experiment 626 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Tzeentxh heralds are T3 W2.

Not when they are on a Disc

It doesn't matter much whether he's on a disk or not... The bearer of the Grimoire can never gain the +2 bonus to his own save!

Sure, if the Tzherald is in a Screamerstar, he's still difficult to pick out. But Screamerstar is only good at not dying. It's damage output is pretty damn weak in 7th, making it more of a noob slayer list. (hint: if he puts up a re-rollable 2++, just ignore the freaking unit or feed it some chaff/tarpit)
If the Grimoire however is on a DP or LoC, focus fire that gakker down! Again, 7th nerfed FMC's survivability overall, and Daemons can't flood the board with them like Tyranids can... A fully tooled LoC is a little over 300pts, while a decently kitted DP is typically 270+ pts. Point your anti-air at them, and/or your small arms. Only use your typical anti-MC/tank weaponry on them once they're grounded.

Yeah, no.... Many times over I have had SM players make this horrendous mistake and hilariously Charged my Stars with Terminators, thinking they could Tarpit them, only to be munched through by the screamers, rather effortlessly I might add. You can by point, simply feed them cheaper, less effective bodies, but don't forget that you will most certainly be over run and lose said squad in a round of combat.

You really cant pick out the Herald in a squad like that unless you're barrage sniping, but GL trying to land a decent hit with the auto scatter. And you can forget Challenges since Daemons dont have to care about those, Ive declined many only to watch poor Captains, Chapter Masters and the likes get swarmed by str 5 ap 2 ankle bites.

What's really funny though, is how often you DONT SEE Furies. Oh sure, if they lose combat, they're screwed because "Ld2" but have you seen what 20 Furies of Slaanesh with a Seeker Herald or two can do? If you roll for Daemonology and get your lovely Cursed Earth, your little buggers will have 4++ add in the Grimoire for your nasty 2++ and all your little gak kickers and their 60 attacks have Rending simply for being Slaanesh. Scary part is, 20 Furies of Slaanesh are 165 points.

Screamerstar lost the reliability that made it broken in 6ed. Its still is good but its much more likely to fail something in a turn and lose its invincibility

I've looked at furies and drooled a bit, but my main problem with them is the model's cost in actual dollars.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I've looked at furies and drooled a bit, but my main problem with them is the model's cost in actual dollars.

Im lucky to have the actual models, but you can sub in things like Harpies or Daemonettes with Gargoyle wings. Ive seen some really nice conversions. I myself entertained the idea of using Nurglings and Gargoyle wings to make Furies of Nurgle so long as they are roughly the same size as regular furies.

 GoliothOnline wrote:

Yeah, no.... Many times over I have had SM players make this horrendous mistake and hilariously Charged my Stars with Terminators, thinking they could Tarpit them, only to be munched through by the screamers, rather effortlessly I might add. You can by point, simply feed them cheaper, less effective bodies, but don't forget that you will most certainly be over run and lose said squad in a round of combat.

You really cant pick out the Herald in a squad like that unless you're barrage sniping, but GL trying to land a decent hit with the auto scatter. And you can forget Challenges since Daemons dont have to care about those, Ive declined many only to watch poor Captains, Chapter Masters and the likes get swarmed by str 5 ap 2 ankle bites.

Loyalist Marines may have the roughest time trying to deal with a Screamerstar, but overall, their best bet is to simply go with an MSU set-up, (which all their current power builds are based around anyways atm!), and just feed the big, scary unit something stupid every turn.
If they can keep their nasty Smashfether/killer unit(s) out of combat with the Screamerstar, they've neutralised it's only real way of winning the game for the Daemon player. (because the thing is still 800+ pts worth of the overall force!)

The one thing Marines in general don't have is a tarpit unit of their own. (hence why it's a bad tactic for them to tarpit!) The only ones I'd really consider for Marines, would be a Lv3 GK Libby w/Book dumping all 4 rolls into Santic to aim for Sanctuary, then slap him in a unit of Hammernators for his own 2++ unit.
Or else some units of Scounts in LSS who can go and play speed bump.

Of course, Marines *should* simply be allying their troubles away if they're really scared of Screamerstar. A single Culexus would do the trick, or a Guard blob w/Priest, Xenos Inquisitor w/Grenades, a Knight, etc...

 GoliothOnline wrote:
What's really funny though, is how often you DONT SEE Furies. Oh sure, if they lose combat, they're screwed because "Ld2" but have you seen what 20 Furies of Slaanesh with a Seeker Herald or two can do? If you roll for Daemonology and get your lovely Cursed Earth, your little buggers will have 4++ add in the Grimoire for your nasty 2++ and all your little gak kickers and their 60 attacks have Rending simply for being Slaanesh. Scary part is, 20 Furies of Slaanesh are 165 points.

Slaanesh anything in our current codex is god damned filthy to be honest... It's just that our opponents are too busy complaining about a 6th ed relic and Summoning!

Personally I prefer my Tzeentch Furies, as they're even cheaper, and can absorb a sickening amount of punishment for a unit that's only 145pts... No Rending is a loss, but I tend to slap nasty things with the LoC and his S8 boomstick of doom.

Okay, I've seen more people say it's possible than I have seen say its impossible. So thank you everyone for your reply's

Also, I think I should just ignore it, so he has nothing left but the Lord of Skulls, alternatively I could just get a Tesseract Vault to combat it.

 Destroyer67 wrote:
Okay, I've seen more people say it's possible than I have seen say its impossible. So thank you everyone for your reply's

Also, I think I should just ignore it, so he has nothing left but the Lord of Skulls, alternatively I could just get a Tesseract Vault to combat it.

It's not possible on a lord of skulls

It is possible on a "Bloodthirster of Swinging D" and this is by far the worst thing i have ever done in a game.

FMC with rerollable 2++ and 8 D strength attacks on the charge at WS10!

Horrible horrible horrible

So Ghazghkuul, the biggest ork in all Orkdom should not have a 2++ because nobody should have a 2++, even though a ton of models in this game currently get a 2++ and a fair majority have the ability to get a 2++ rerollable.

Can I get a 3++ then

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So Ghazghkuul, the biggest ork in all Orkdom should not have a 2++ because nobody should have a 2++, even though a ton of models in this game currently get a 2++ and a fair majority have the ability to get a 2++ rerollable.

Can I get a 3++ then

They shouldn't be getting 2++ either

Yes, and can you stop with that, you got your own topic for it, don't need to see that here either.

 jokerkd wrote:

 Destroyer67 wrote:
Okay, I've seen more people say it's possible than I have seen say its impossible. So thank you everyone for your reply's

Also, I think I should just ignore it, so he has nothing left but the Lord of Skulls, alternatively I could just get a Tesseract Vault to combat it.

It's not possible on a lord of skulls

It is possible on a "Bloodthirster of Swinging D" and this is by far the worst thing i have ever done in a game.

FMC with rerollable 2++ and 8 D strength attacks on the charge at WS10!

Horrible horrible horrible

WS10 and still only hits a grot on a 3... thats what i call horrible. But thats another topic.